The Smiley Smile Message Board

Apologies if this has been covered many times before, I couldn’t find the relevant thread.

I have heard about Al’s departure in the late 90’s, but wondered what was the reason for Mike wanting him out?

Also, was he dismissed in ‘93? What happened there?

Thanks in advance!

The two were parts of a larger story. Al was unhappy with Mike's leadership of the band and made his feelings clear. That, or Al's expressions of that, presumably led to the suspension. Al then spent the '90s more allied with Carl and increasingly alienated from Mike -- he's pointed to unhappiness with the cheerleaders and setlists. Once Carl was unable to tour, Mike decided that he didn't want to continue with Al in the band.

There are many details and specific anecdotes that can be added, but that's the general shape of things. Fans on the outside tended to think that Al and Mike were allies throughout those years, but it ends up that Al was always a bit on the periphery of the band, and his relationships with the others were sometimes fraught or subject to long-held grudges. Heck, he didn't even make it through a full tour with Brian about 10 years ago. But his overall outlook seems to have shifted of late, to everyone's benefit.

Nobody really knows as there have been conflicting stories. Supposedly he was "fired" during SIP for an "attitude problem" or stepped down due to tinnitus, depending on whom you believe. He and Mike did have a falling out at some point (confirmed) and David was  being brought back in to replace him but ended up replacing Carl.

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Post above has more detail

Thanks for the replies. So did the other members vote for Al to be suspended in ‘93? I’m surprised that happened while Carl was still around.

That is a question I also wanted to ask. The whole 90s debacle still has some shadows for me. Hope guitarfool will step in. I think he has done a lot of research on that time.

I know that mike and al (and the other guys i think) went to therapy in the 90s for al to talk about how he had been mistreated and worked stuff out so he could come back

Did not know that....sounds like they all should have been in therapy to straighten out the entire group dynamic.

It was '91, not '93, that saw Al out of the band for a spell. He came back toward the end of the SIP sessions, and according to Mike, made a "good" song "great" ("Strange Things Happen" - generally considered by fans to be the best song on the album). Mike speaks at some length about this situation in the ground-breaking interview with Ken Sharp, published in Goldmine in '92. Mike admits that some of Al's grievances were justified, and some not (in his opinion). Regardless, the Beach Boys (and nowadays the Brian Wilson band) ALWAYS sound better with Al Jardine in the vocal blend!

Does anyone have a link to that goldmine interview? Sounds like a cracker!

I have the Goldmine interview; always thought Love sounded  bit "off" there, like when he had fasted at the RR Hall of Fame awards supposedly an,d acted like he had lost his marbles. I have always wondered how Al was "fired"....did Carl go along with that? Seems very strange behavior from Carl if he had....he was the peacemaker of the Band. Would love the get the full answer on that one though.

I was told by a long time back-up player (who most fans don't like) that when Mike got control he finally could get rid of Al , who he didn't like from the beginning in 62, never liked him!  Mike's wife also got rid of the back-ground player who I spoke with!

If this is true, it's interesting that we got so many Mike/Al co-writes, in the late 70's particularly. I wonder how that writing partnership worked?

Maybe in order to keep swinging the power balance in his favor, Mike worked with a guy with a corporate vote to keep said guy happier. Plus, Mike seemingly can’t really write songs on his own, with a small handful of exceptions. It’s hard to see every one of Mike’s actions from Endless Summer-on as anything but a scheming, long-range powerplay to ensure an eventual end of him having full power.

Honestly, I can only imagine what Al Jardine privately thinks (and says) about Mike’s narcissism and back-stabbing. All things considered, Al has been incredibly, incredibly gracious to not publicly call it out directly and often.

The only time a BB documentary could possibly ever really get to the heart of so, so much stuff that has affected this band is to have a significant section dedicated to that one topic. The big elephant in the room, now that substance abuse has been covered exceedingly well already. Yet of course this coverage in any properly-made content won’t ever happen until the players are no longer with us.

Al was so underrated and underappreciated by The BBs and Mike in particular. Al is pretty much why SIP has any moments at all.

Mike seems to not like anybody.... ::)

In the grand scheme of all things myKe luHv  and his insidious plot to become King of Everything Beach Boys, with Carl and Dennis gone, he could swoop down with his claws of jealousy and conveniently carry on with the M&B circus act and dump Brian and Al along the road. But it didn't work because the hate for him multiplied many times over and that sad old codger can't, in any way, backpedal his way out of his self induced hell.  >:D

OSD is like the Batman of Mike Love bullshit.... >:D

Al was never really fired nor did he quit in the early 90s. He basically just sat out most of the SIP sessions. As far as I know, he never left the touring band during this time.

There were internal things brewing even back then. The Peter Ames Carlin book mentions an attempt to oust Al several years prior, in 1990.

Al's 1998 departure was apparently, as detailed to a certain degree in the Stebbins/Marks book, a result of Al disagreeing with Mike taking over producing BB tours. Carl didn't put up a fight apparently. Al probably saw that essentially becoming an employee of Mike's company could see him easily edged out, which is precisely what happened. Thus Al was essentially s**tcanned. His making a stink probably just hastened his ouster.

I don't buy that Mike has hated Al since '62. I think they have some sort of affection for each other. But considering business/political BS trumps even the Mike/Brian relationship, it even more easily does the Mike/Al relationship.

http://troun.tripod.com/mikelove.html

Link's not working

This is detailed in the Goldmine interview. The therapist was one of Mike's friends, which to me doesn't sound like the best choice for unfettered impartiality.

Hrmmmm, not sure if it's a sketchy website. The link is working okay for me so far.

Here's that site's main articles page with links to a bunch of items:

http://troun.tripod.com/articles.html

Here's an interesting June 1993 interview with Mike that is similarly full of piss and vinegar:

http://www.surfermoon.com/interviews/mike693.html

It's amazing how different Mike's attitude is now. In 1993, he's talking about imminently retiring and calling the BBs "lovingly irrelevant."

Hmmm...I guess the erotic hypnotist must've been busy that week

Right. There was a brilliant therapist ready to help them...but Mike and Al refused to talk to Dr. Landy.  :lol

Mike probably should've been talking to Dr Ruth :lol

Or the Dr. of Wilsonomics....

I'd have been about 14 then. The only thing I was the doctor of was being young and cute :lol

Dammit Billy!  :lol

I remember Andrew Doe once posted here that everybody, Including Carl, voted Al out of the group at one point.

I remember that, but consider the source...he's had it out for Al (and Mary Ann) for years for whatever reason (probably because Al saw through him). I would trust a more legit source.

Perhaps there is some truth to what you say, but Mike's never struck me as much of a forward planner. The song-writing credit debacle and his lack of money sense being obvious examples. I recall murmurs being mentioned on this board Al was a pretty grumpy fellow for quite a while, whether for justified reasons or other, and even Carl was getting tired of him. Presumably he toned it down in the mid-nineties (whether we can thank the therapist partially or or not, God only knows), which lead to him becoming so much closer to Carl, and more recently, Brian.

It would be interesting to know how Al and Mike approached writing songs however and whether they did much working on them in the same room. Perhaps unsurprisingly, neither of them have expressed a desire (that I'm aware of) to get back, just the two of them, around the piano, guitar, saxophone, or whatever it might have been.

Brian : hey, mike, you want to write a song with me in a room with a piano?  Meet me at such and such address.

Mike:Alright,  cuz, let's do it again!

(Mike heads to the location Brian gave him, notices it's an empty, dirty room, but there is a piano there. He shrugs, sits down, and waits for Brian. Just then the door slams. He notices a tape reCorder aND hits play.  )

Voice of Jigsaw : Hey Mike, wanna play a game?

Mike: Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

(https://33hpwq10j9luq8gl43e62q4e-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/0g1iqhJN5GKGR1MBw.png)

That was a tongue in cheek reference to Saw, of course

Don't forget that in the late 70s Al and Mike were the TM wing of the group and always voted togheter when it came to board meetings.

In retrospect, that seems to have been more about the behavior of the Wilsons than Mike and Al necessarily having huge affinities.

Actually, I was going to put that but then I deleted it. Yes, that's also true. But Mike and Al's affinities during that era included TM, ecology (remember plans for a concept album about that issue) and, when it came to live shows, a preference for the "Endless Summer" approach (ie hits and early material). The gap between both camps (after the infamous aeroplane argument chronicled in Rolling Stone) gave Al the chance to call the shots on MIU.

Indeed -- although I'll also point out that Brian wrote two songs about TM and Dennis definitely touched on ecological concerns on POB.

But yes, Al's position on the periphery of the band means he never quite got to call the shots and only had power -- even now -- to the extent that he threw his weight in with one principal or another.

Yes, that's the thing with beign "friends" and not "family". But, hey, at least he's got a vote. He could have done worse (i.e. Bruce)

Al's biggest ally in the band was and is Brian.  The less Brian was involved , the more marginalized Al seemed to be.  He was Brian's friend after all and had no initial connection to the others.

I think Mike and Al were never as close as the popular BB story makes them out to be. They wrote a few songs together,  really only a handful and Al ended up siding with Mike for 2 reasons I think: That's how Brian was voting and the anti drug/pro TM common theme. Al and Mike were never really friends, they have completely opposite personalities and temperaments.

I don't think Al was pro oldies in the set more so than Carl really. Guercio encouraged them to embrace the classics and hard to blame them when that's what the fans wanted.  I don't think Al was out there demanding 409 and Surfin Safari be added and I don't think Carl and Dennis were exactly demanding they play Wild Honey and Friends songs. It was sort of an evolution into that. In fact, Al was bemoaning they had too many oldies by '80 in the Knebworth liner notes.

It was really the drug use/lifestyle that pushed Al and Mike together.  When Mike says drugs hurt the BB the most, he's not entirely wrong.  Once Carl cleaned up, the Al/Mike "alliance" really faded away. There was no need for it. Throughout the 80s they grew further and further apart.  Mike post Kokomo must have been completely insufferable to be in a band with. It comes through in those early 90's interview. He's completely delusional about Kokomo and his success.  It was Kokomo Mike/cheerleaders that really created the chasm between Al and Mike but it was already started to some extent and Mike's corporate takeover that was what finally made it irreparable and Al had to go. 

Even BW and Al during the 1990s had some friendship chemistry during when Al holds BW’s nose at the piano. ;D Plus the Carlin book has Al breaking the ice during the 2005 statue dedication...

I'm not one to standup for mike usually, but I can see how Al could hold grudges about things from the past like mike says....In the "wilson project" gary usher says how every time he sees Al he yells "THIEF! YOURE A THIEF" to him because 20 years earlier they'd invested in something that hadnt made its money back...also, in a documentary Al talks about Sloop John B and how he gave Brian the idea but "then of course on the record it doesnt say Al Jardine anywhere, says Brian Wilson" and the way he says it seems like it actually is bothered by it....

There was a story I recall reading about on here about Al suddenly putting his guitar down and leaving in the middle of a show. I'd love to know more about what happened there, and if/how that may have played a role in Al being forced out.

Vaguely remember that. I recall him having said to the group he had tp leave at a set time for a family event, and the show ran late. Something like that. I don’t think it was portrayed as a falling out.

Of course Brian has done the same the times I have seen him in concert.  :lol

I believe the story was something like Al left in the middle of the show saying he had a plane to catch.

Does Al always complain/always quickly angered? Slightly off-topic, but he seemed pretty angry at a recent concert of his and Brian's when I asked him to sign my copy of Pet Sounds ("I can't sign anything" in a harsh voice).

Thanks!

Or a bus.

Makes sense Al would leave the show in the middle. Ticket is bought, if he didn't leave, the money he paid for it wouldn't be given back, ticket would be annulled. At least, that's how it works here.

Absolutely Billy. I used to take most of what AGD said very seriously, but the way he would privately speak so shitty about Al sure opened my eyes. Seriously, besides AGD and the the Mike Love fellating Cam Mort, who would really have any true beefs with Al frickin' Jardine?!

Al was extremely nice when I met him. Granted it was quick but very genuine

Al was a delight both times I met him. The first on the C50 VIP experience, and the second was after Brian's show at Montgomery College in 2015. He gladly signed my photo so long as I would walk to the bus with him and not stop to allow a crowd to form...which was already happening anyway with the 20 people or so that were waiting.

Had the pleasure of meeting Al several times and never once was he anything other than a great guy. I've told the story here before, but at after a show, I drove him and some friends to his hotel. On the way, we were all singing BB songs and I remember he thought my car was cool.

I can't believe that was already two years ago.  I was waiting outside, but chose not to follow Al since he had a container of food (I know I don't want anyone between me and my meals).  Looking back though, I wish I'd taken the opportunity to meet him. 

Such a cool story. Was the car an early 70s Camaro, as I seem to recall reading?

met Al several times, he has always been a complete gentleman and very generous with his time.  Of course, the same can be said of each of the guys, except Bruce--who is, as many have mentioned previously, absolute Jekyll and Hyde. Literally 50% of the time I have met him he is the kindest guy you could meet, and will (unsolicited) regale you with Beach Boys history and insights.  The other 50%?  Don't even ask...

Good recall, CD! It was a Chev. Camero SS 396, silver with a black vinyl top. I've been fortunate to have had some collectibles over the years. One of my faves was a '52 Cev. Woody that I used to haul my drums to every gig.

While the Usher book's recounting of that episode with Al is hilarious and borders on Spinal Tap-esque levels of absurdity, and while Al no doubt could be "difficult" and have a chip on his shoulder especially in the 80s and 90s (sometimes with good reason, sometimes perhaps not), I don't think the Usher story is much more than an anecdote; I don't think it speaks to a large pattern of being *that* weird about perceived wrongs from the past.

I don't think Al had any stronger of a penchant for being "hung up on the past" than Mike did, or most anybody in the band in their own way (perhaps Dennis the least who in some respects "lived in the moment" for lack of a less clichéd way of putting it). For Mike in particular to single Al out in that 1992 Goldmine interview for getting hung up on the past is particularly ironic and hypocritical considering that same interview is one long diatribe from Mike about being hung up on the songwriting lawsuit and Brian in general. Indeed, nearly 25 years *after* Mike WON the songwriting lawsuit, he STILL seems hung up on it.

More than any member of the band ever, it's Mike who holds grudges and gets hung up on the past.

Make no mistake, as one of the most f-ed up bands interpersonally/politically/business-wise, etc., they *all* have held grudges and been hung up on past ills. Sometimes justified, sometimes not.

I'd also hardly call Al's attitude in the last 50 years regarding "Sloop John B" to be that of holding a grudge. I think he would have a pretty strong case (morally/ethically more so than legally) that he deserved a co-writing (or rather "co-arranging" credit) on the song alongside Brian. Al by all accounts did more than literally just plop the song title in front of Brian and leave the room. But I've rarely seen Al even bring up the fact that only Brian got credit.

Unlike Mike, I'm guessing that Al realizes they're *all* insanely rich off this whole thing, and it's not worth the fallout nor his own consternation to gripe about it. In that way, I don't think Al was ever as hung up on that sort of stuff as Mike was, but either way Al has certainly mellowed out in the last 15+ years in terms of how he looks at the band and its legacy and in particular his relationship with Brian.

I've heard this story, and I would imagine it's more than simply apocryphal. But if it did happen, there's obviously at least a little more to the story.

Keep in mind that unlike most any other band, the Beach Boys regularly did shows with a member absent. In 1990 alone, there were Mike-less, Al-less, and Carl-less shows. Most any other band would postpone a show if one of the four core members were out. Not the Beach Boys. That certainly didn't help the watering-down of their brand and its value.

While there are stories of just about every BB having a bad day/moment and being weird or cranky (or, in the case of your story, probably just a little rushed/tired, etc.), Al (along with Mike, and Dave, and Brian) is usually excellent with fans.

As we've often discussed, the only BB with a regular pattern of running hot and cold with fans is Bruce.

In both of those cases, there was often an assertion that Al was the cause of this or that, or that Al was the true villain of this episode or that. Every time that sort of thing would come up, I'd quickly point out what Wirestone (and others) have pointed out in this and other threads: Al has almost always been marginalized in terms of power (and in most any other respect; artistically, etc.) The idea that he was the reason C50 ended, or that he was the one who screwed BRI over regarding his 1998 departure, etc. (all crackpot theories bandied about at one time or another by someone or another) is silly.

Al has almost always been almost comically marginalized and impotent when it comes to anything to do with the band's power structure or anything that enacts any change.

The only power he wields at this stage is that he adds quality and authenticity to whichever group he chooses to join.

It really depends on who one measures what a "Beach Boy" is.

The only technical/legal definition is corporate members, and in that sense Brian, Mike, and Al have *always* been BBs since they became corporate members.

Carlin's book mentions a 1990 attempt to oust Al from the band. I don't know if that would have been an attempt to buy Al out, although I've heard stories and my own instinct would tell me that I wouldn't be surprised if Mike and/or others may have tried to buy Al out at one point or another. But Al never was bought out, either in 1990 or even in 1998 when he was no longer in the touring band.

The best way I could think of to describe the whole thing is that the Beach Boys essentially broke up/ceased operations in 1998, and then the corporation licensed the BB name for Mike's solo tour.

The fact that these guys were always corporate members, and that Brian popped in and out of working with the band in the studio in the 80s and 90s, is why it has always bugged me when references are made to Brian or Al "leaving" the group at any point. They never really did.

Al was President of BRI at one point I believe for a short tenure so he did have SOME power.

I met Al backstage at the Oregon C50 show. He was super friendly and gracious!  He talked to me for like 10 minutes. Great guy!

I could be wrong, but in some cases in a private corporation like that, the "board members" essentially rotate in and out of the essential roles like President, etc. Someone has to sign off on stuff in that role. So I'm guessing when an actual BB/board member has taken on a role like that, it hasn't been in the same wide-ranging capacity as what, for instance, Jerry Schilling is doing now.

Thanks Hey Jude and everyone else; there's too many to quote.  It was the first time I'd met a member of the band so I didn't know what to expect and was kind of disappointed.