The Smiley Smile Message Board

Don't get me wrong, I love many of Dennis Wilson's songs. But do a lot of his songs sounds somewhat incomplete to you? What I mean by that is that the main part of the song is brilliant but then it doesn't really change or go anywhere. It stays similar throughout. Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again and 4th of July come to mind as examples. Whereas Brian's music keeps moving in interesting and fascinating ways ways, Dennis has songs don't. But they seem like they are a few transitions away from becoming all-time classics.

I realize it's not fair to compare Dennis to Brian, perhaps pop music's greatest songwriter, but I guess I did anyway.

It also may not be fair to use semi-incomplete songs as examples. But I think his completed, released material has the same quality.

I love Denny's songs very much, and I wouldn't quite say I agree with you, but on the other hand it's completely subjective. Didn't some people suggest Denny possibly had undiagnosed ADD? If that's the case, maybe it might explain that you're hearing what might (to some) be considered slightly incomplete or perhaps not 100% fully realized songs, if he stopped working on them just short of them being fully done.

Obviously we have clearly unfinished Bambu material, and I don't feel we can judge Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again as a fully completed song, since Denny never gave the stamp of approval to release it in his lifetime.

I wouldn't say that any of Denny's released songs (during his lifetime) feel like that to me, except maybe Make it Good, which I've always regarded as sort of intentionally experimental anyway. I guess Be Still is demo-ish, but that might be indicative of it being a very early songwriting effort for him, plus it being on a very low-key demo-ish type of album anyway.

Though I kinda get what you’re saying; the entirety of Pacific Ocean Blue keeps flowing to new and exciting places from the get go. I mean some songs will start with a piano and end with a brass band, others have some of the most beautiful string sections relating to Beach Boys music.

I really think POB is a friggin masterpiece, where you have to let the whole thing envelop you to get a full appreciation for it.

To back you up, I feel like ‘Be With Me’ goes nowhere - but yet it is one of my favorite BBs songs ever (I just love the mood, lyrics, etc). Cuddle Up is another that I feel fits your description - the song just goes on far too long.

POB took me awhile to fully appreciate. I liked it at first, but didn't *get* it fully. Now I think it's utterly brilliant and hard-hitting. A slow grower.

If I recall correctly I felt the same way about it at first. Definitely a grower!

Smile4ever - I had the exact thought listening to some of Dennis' music within the last week. Brian and Dennis are very different songwriters. Brian is unparalleled in pop music in his use of chords. Dennis is much more utilitarian in that area, his focus is on building emotion through the arrangement.

When you say that "Brian's music keeps moving in interesting and fascinating ways ways, Dennis has songs don't", I believe what you're saying is that Brian's songs change more structurally, particularly through key changes, which are a rare feature in the work of Dennis. Dennis' music does, though, feature extensive change in arrangement/instrumentation/feel between sections.

I think "I've Got A Friend" seems to kind of fit the style you're talking about. It kind of "wanders" a bit, and the lyrics seems to be more of a "stream of consciousness", as opposed to a conventional song structure. It may seem like I'm trying to find faults in it, but it truly is a remarkable song. It's just a typical "Dennis" song, you know?

I get you point to a degree but don't agree. Or, think of Bob Dylan: his songs don't "go anywhere" musically. Take any track from Highway 61 Revisited. They start, the guy starts his rambling and the Band starts a-rocking, this goes on for give minutes and then it ends. Musically nothing much changes during the duration of the song. Despite this, I consider his songs finished, even masterpieces.

Brian was a guy who packed two-minute songs full of surprises, shock and awe. Denny concentrated on creating moods. Different ballgame, apples and oranges, sodas and martinis, you know.

I think "I've Got A Friend" seems to kind of fit the style you're talking about. It kind of "wanders" a bit, and the lyrics seems to be more of a "stream of consciousness", as opposed to a conventional song structure. It may seem like I'm trying to find faults in it, but it truly is a remarkable song. It's just a typical "Dennis" song, you know?[/quote]

"Wanders" is a perfect description. Dennis is following his own nose, wherever it may lead. I wrote this seven years ago (it's mercifully brief):

"Sitting back listening to my precious copy of Pacific Ocean Blue I was suddenly struck by the sheer number of musical styles or moods on board, or, let's say, leanings towards various styles. These include straight rock, symphonic rock, funk, soul, gospel, folk, big band, latin, ballads, even some Madigras-style blowing and a smattering of psychedelia (those bleeps a la 'Reflections' (Supremes), and Dennis's heavily treated voice on one track).
"There are of course other things going on that defy classification entirely----that's just Dennis. No-one asked him to make an album, no Brianesque soul-searching for him. His horizons were wide open, and off he went."

His songwriting style was inherently sort of fragmentary and "bumpy", with odd time signatures and pauses, almost maddening at times, but to me the overall effect is idiosyncratically artistic, earthily eccentric, evocative and non-commercial. Sales and formula were clearly not of paramount importance to him, unlike some.

To me they just have a unique musical structure.

I think someone getting the "unfinished" sort of vibe is understandable in some cases.

To be sure, there are bits and pieces that are truly unfinished (e.g. "10,000 Years"), and the stuff that sounds "complete" but was never released, perhaps we don't always ever know if he would have worked on it more. Take something like "I'm Going Your Way." A couple versions (in terms of vocals) exist. Would one of those vocals have been released had the put the song out, or would he have embellished it more?

"Wanders" is a perfect description. Dennis is following his own nose, wherever it may lead. I wrote this seven years ago (it's mercifully brief):

"Sitting back listening to my precious copy of Pacific Ocean Blue I was suddenly struck by the sheer number of musical styles or moods on board, or, let's say, leanings towards various styles. These include straight rock, symphonic rock, funk, soul, gospel, folk, big band, latin, ballads, even some Madigras-style blowing and a smattering of psychedelia (those bleeps a la 'Reflections' (Supremes), and Dennis's heavily treated voice on one track).
"There are of course other things going on that defy classification entirely----that's just Dennis. No-one asked him to make an album, no Brianesque soul-searching for him. His horizons were wide open, and off he went."
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Very well put; I love what you wrote.

Very well put; I love what you wrote.
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Thank you, sir!

To me, there's plenty of different ways to write a great song, without many transitions and time changes.  I don't think it makes the songs any less great.

Agreed. Take "Everyday People" by Sly and the Family Stone. The accompaniment is little more than a one-chord, two-bar motif endlessly repeated by the rhythm section punctuated at key points by a motto of three repeated notes. The vocals cleverly repeat four short sections (echoed by the horns) in a sequence that creates an almost unbearable tension----and all this in less than 2:20! Talk about less is more. And this is just one of so many ways, as you say.

There's also Bruce Springsteen's "Dancin in the Dark" where the entire song exists over a repeating synth riff for the most part.  Tension builds, but it's never really released, except for maybe the short sax solo at the very end.

I always thought that Dennis' songs sound unfinished because they were unfinished. Other than what was released with Dennis' permission.

Maybe not all were unfinished, but instead were unpolished? We've heard demos or alternate versions of songs that sound nearly identical to what was released, but they lack "a certain something" that the released version has.

Consider the instrument only version of Sloop John B from Stack O' Tracks - then listen to the final version from Pet Sounds. A simple technique like just dropping the instruments for a short time and letting the beauty of the boys acappella voices shine makes a huge difference. Dennis may have had some changes in mind to enhance his songs even though they were nearly complete. A few lyrical ones perhaps?

I get your point, but I just don't think the lack of changes in a song makes it sound incomplete. 

5 years passed by & I still don't like it except POBlues, "River Song" & "Rainbows", i.e. catchiest songs.

I find for most of Dennis' solo songs it's all about feel and mood and emotion.  He's not aiming for a big crescendo chorus, or a big bang finale, the songs build slowly and take you to a place and keep you there until the song ends.  So I can see how some may find them underwhelming, but it's just as valid a way to write songs as the more commercial approach, and in a way is a more "modern" style which is why it appeals to contemporary musicians and indie acts.

I don't think they sound incomplete, but as several posters have said, they definitely have an approach that is more based on vibe or mood, and less based on what I'd call movement: chord changes and progressions, melodies that work more functionally toward a climax and resolution. Those latter things, Brian had in spades (though he also certainly had his mood-songs, like the loping part of Worms or Cool Cool Water, mostly bouncing between two chords without harmonic resolution).

It ends up a matter of taste. Mine is more toward Brian's or other more conventional pop songwriters. But I get why people like Dennis.

I don't think Denny's songs sound incomplete at all.  Simple sometimes, but let's face it most popular music is kinda simple.  I do agree that one song about white punks play tonight really goes nowhere, but where in the hell does ding dang go exactly except straight to hell.  Oh, and Be Still, it really doesn't go anywhere and I've never quite understood why it is liked that much apparently.  To jazz it up a bit, I would always change the lyrics to "you know, you know you are.....be still and smoke a cigar".  At least in my own mind!

Oh man, IMO you're really missing the boat on "Moonshine", "Thoughts of You" (saddest 3 minutes in pop music history), "You & I", Tug of Love (didn't quite make the cut, replaced with End of the Show). All (subjectively) wonderful.

I think a lot of them sound somewhat incomplete and meandering. In a really GOOD way. Sometimes music is more interesting when it doesn't have a beginning, middle or end. Many times I'll listen to a Dennis song I've heard a thousand times and it still sounds fresh. Everflowing, moody and unpredictable.

I believe it was intentional. Vocally he brings those same qualities to more structured non-Dennis songs. The production often reflects that too and I wonder if they altered it to suit him (even down to instrumentation). My Diane and Angel Come Home are great examples. For the longest time I thought he wrote those songs because they sounded very "Dennis" to me.