The Smiley Smile Message Board

 I've noticed that almost NO ONE will admit that there are some good tunes on this album (except hardcore BB fans of course). Everyone trashes it and calls it one of their bottom worst albums they've ever done. I don't know, I'd at least give it 3 stars out of 5. There are a bunch of Brian Wilson written tunes and even though some are old and they aren't exactly A+++ material or anything, there's nothing wrong with much of the material. It's fun and catchy enough imo.

Sunshine, Goin' On, When Girls Get Together, Livin' With A Heartache, and Endless Harmony are really good songs to me.

My favorite is "Oh Darlin'". Has that classic Brian Wilson style to me and a great Carl vocal

The production isn't great, they aren't very inspired and Dennis is nowhere to be found but it's still not a bad record. What do you guys think?

Not the worst album, but only songs I really dig are the title track, Santa Ana Winds, Sunshine, and Livin' with a Heartache. Goin' On is ok apart from that horrible sax solo.  I much prefer the version of OH Darlin with the BW vocals

Yeah I like this album. It's really fun. I think it's the second best out of the three. MIU LA KTSA

Santa Ana Winds, Some Of Your Love and Sunshine are my favourites

I think you can find decent songs on every Beach Boys album, including Keeping the Summer Alive. 

That being said, I think it's the 2nd worst album they ever did (second only to SIP), but I do like Santa Ann Winds, Goin On, and....believe it or not...Endless Harmony, especially the oh too brief vocals at the end. 

I love Sunshine, Goin' On, and Livin' With a Heartache, but I especially love Oh Darlin'. I didn't know that a Brian vocal version of that song existed... where might one find it? The Google is not helping!

The title song, KTSA, is horrible.

KTSA, for me, shares similarities with LA Light, apart from the Bruce Johnston production and the label.

The material released, in my view, on both albums, is very strong.  The common thread between both albums is what's missing, not what was released.  KTSA would have greatly benefited from Goin' to the Beach, Da Doo Ron Ron, and from what I've heard tell (though not heard myself), Surfer Susie and I'll Always Love You.  At the time, this was initially going to be called "Brothers, Cousins and Friends," and contain a cross section of material, including a finished mix of Can't Wait Too Long, The Lord's Prayer in stereo, possibly the new mix of San Miguel prepared for MIU.  It might have even been a double album at one point.  I remember reading something about that back in the day.  But a lot of it just didn't cut and we were left with the ten cuts we got.

Using the Made in California set, drop in Goin to the Beach, Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love, Da Doo Ron Ron... It's A Beautiful Day (all of which mix very well into the unique sound of this album)...maybe It's Not Too Late from Bambu... maybe San Miguel or a snippet of Can't Wait Too Long... and you've got a very different, richer album, perhaps a little closer to what was intended.

I believe its on the "Get The Boot" set? The 2nd disc.. I am very surprised its not on youtube!

It was probably taken down during the unfortunate recent purging of rare BB stuff from YouTube.

Bruce had a rather homogenous production sound on KTSA (and on LA as well; though it's less prevalent since several songs were cut outside the "proper" LA sessions), and that's part of why KTSA sounds so limp.

Bruce Johnston is not the guy you ever wanted to produce a "rock" song, so the KTSA title track for instance is a rather lackluster recording of an okay (if total BTO ripoff) song. KTSA sounded ten times better during 1980 shows, especially the DC July 4th show (and to a very slight lesser extent the Knebworth 1980 show).

Stuff like "Goin' to the Beach" and "Da Doo Ron Ron" is cut from the same cloth; inoffensive stuff with a super bland production style. And putting "The Lord's Prayer" on the album would have been insane and beyond weird. Imagine McCartney putting a 1963 previously-released track on "Back to the Egg" or "McCartney II."

"Can't Wait Too Long" is a cool outtake, but it's really just the opening bit (with has been mined numerous times, including a vocals-only mix on "Hawthorne" and Brian's TLOS album) that's really ear-catching. The rest of the song is interesting and quirky and noteworthy for it's "Smile" connections. But it would have sounded totally weird on KTSA too.

There are some good compositions buried under there on KTSA. "Oh Darlin'" has some interesting bits, and I have always *loved* the dissonant backing vocals during the bridge. But it's an awful recording/production, beyond cheesy.

"Santa Ana Winds" is probably by default the standout track on the album in terms of both composition and production, and would be near perfect if not for the awful spoken intro.

"Goin' On" is a cool song, but the production even on that one is weird. The backing vocals are too indistinct, the sax solo is total overkill. The 1980 "Friday's" TV show performance of the song is actually more enjoyable I think.

"Livin' with a Heartache" is a solid song, but once again with pretty limp production. The rare live performance of that one also sounded better.

I'd say almost everything the band did from about 1978-79 through the early 80s, including Carl's solo stuff, tended to sound better live. Which is extra ironic because the BBs were more apt by that time to quickly drop "new" songs from the setlist. But most KTSA stuff sounded better in concert. Carl's solo stuff sounded *much* better during his '81 club gigs.

I used to HATE KTSA(the album), but now I actually like it quite a bit. Livin' With A Heartache and Goin' On are both great songs. I hate the sax solo on GO, but I love the song, especially when it transitions from  "I love you, I miss you" , to "Come be my redeemer". I don't know why, but I LOVE that part.  ;D KTSA could have been a great album opener, buy t the production is so sterile that it sucks all the life out of it. Oh Darlin has a beautiful vocal from Carl, but the song is boring as hell. Going To The Beach could have replaced When Girls Get Together, and would have been a highlight of the album, especially if it would have had the Brian backing vocals that are in the video of him, Mike, and Carl at the piano.

Isn't this the Brian-led "Oh Darlin'"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H02cP3UHUXU

Goin' On is the standout track of the album because it's unmistakably a group sound, lead by Carl.  My problem with the track is Mike is too prominent in the mix, and the tag at the end with Brian, whose voice is way too rough to be singing that part. 

Brian sang the tag on Getcha Back, same hoarse, horrible voice that brought that song down.   

Keepin' the Summer Alive should have been the lead single off this album.  I disliked Sunshine, School Days (one of their worst covers ever) and both When Girls Get Together and Livin' with a Heartache seem like they will never end and are pretty lame at any length.  Oh Darling was a pale GOK imitation and the God Only Knows How I Love Only You chorus or refrain is truly grating in a Mike Love quoting the title of Good Vibration for the Looking Back with Love single.  Oh, and Mike's nasal vocals on Santa Ana Winds pretty well single-handedly sunk that track, though I'm not sure the public was ready for another Al Jardine folk excursion at any time in the ahem, 80's.  The rest of the album was palatable enough, but definitely I have to agree with the Rolling Stone review assessment that the Beach Boys were now a rock and roll wax museum.  Perhaps that is what spurred the next album to be an attempt at modernity, albeit mostly a failed attempt....

Which part in Goin' On do you mean?

I love KTSA!

Love this album. Strong side 2 especially as Sunshine is really the only song I don't play a lot.

It's not a bad album, but not nearly as good as LA. I have to admit, though, that it's embarrassing to hear Mike croon those high school lyrics on "Some of Your Love". The track itself is catchy enough, but come on guys, grow up! You're not teenagers anymore! Apparently they thought they were, because then they cover Chuck Berry's "School Days", and it's truly bad. Just a limp remake with no life in it at all. I used to hate "When Girls Get Together", but it is growing on me in a perverse way. The title track is fun, but then I am a BTO fan. Love the bass line and the middle eight ("Lay down..."). "Oh Darlin" is pretty good - primarly because Carl is singing it. Surprising to hear that early mix with Brian on lead - I didn't know he could sound this good in 1980! Sounds like his MIU voice. "Livin' With a Heartache" is one I play over and over, just can't get enough of it. I'm biased - i'm a Carl fan. It is vocals that lift "Goin' On" into the area of musical magic.

Thanks for this, JK! After listening and comparing the two, I can't decide if I have a preference, they're both good for different reasons. Brian's vocal is charming, but it is of course missing the polish of the KTSA version. And I think Carl's vocal is great on that one too. It'll be interesting to see if one emerges as a favourite over time, but I'm happy to have both versions in my life now  :-D

"Which part in Goin' On do you mean?"

There's a part of the song, actually twice, where it's only Brian singing - Gooin' Oon.  I'm sure it was done to make him more part of the effort, but he didn't have the vocal ability to pull it off.

I think you are wrong with this in a few ways.  For one when I listen to that I hear Al in there.  For two, I don't think it has anything to do with his voice at the time.  I hear it as an intentional timbre they are doing.  If you listen to the backing of Be True To Your School (esp. verses) you hear a similar timbre and certainly none of them had any problems singing in 1965.

It's definitely Brain doing that part, not Al.

What I mean is, I hear a stack that contains more than one person's voice.  I certainly could be wrong though.

This recent recreation is pretty good at capturing what a more decent KTSA album would be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BET3DAY1Tsw&ab_channel=ICanHearMusic551 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BET3DAY1Tsw&ab_channel=ICanHearMusic551)

Also the title of the album and the title song is rubbish. Better call it "Summer" or "Sunshine", simply for being a light collection of pretty light songs about summer by a band that had had its best days.

Oh Darlin' with Brian on lead works far better. He really delivers the rough yearning in that song that Carl's delicate voice is less suited for.

The little solo interjected "Goin' Oo-on!" bits after the verse are Brian, not Al. When they did the song live in 1980, with both Brian and Al on stage, Brian sang that part as well. (I remember in the distant olden days of the internet, some fans contended it was Dennis rather than Brian because of the sort of distant rasp, but I think that's before most knew of the more concrete evidence that Dennis hardly attended the KTSA sessions).

Brian's voice was hit-and-miss at best during the 1979/1980 KTSA sessions and subsequent touring, and his voice on the studio version of "Goin' On" sounds like what his voice sounded like at that time, with some effects added so it isn't totally dry.

Oh THAT part.  Sorry.  Yes, that is definitely Brian.  The multiple o's in the OP made me think they were referring to something different, my bad.

I love the whole album. I played it all the time with my best girl in a 1978 Z28. We sang along and laughed at the KTSA "Duh duh, duh" part because I would always sing that to be a goof. Great memories about that album and that time period.  The album has odd songs, but what else do you expect from the Beach Boys? I would not have it any other way. Sunshine is catchy IMO.

Very unusual album in that it is less than the sum of its parts. Some nice tunes/songs on it but overall it's just rubbish for some reason.

There are some songs I like. The title track is a massive guilty pleasure for me-  I am a big Randy Bachman fan and Carl sings his ass off. Goin' On is one of the best Brian songs from the era that,  IMHO,  should have been a hit. But it does veer off into self-parody with Some Of Your Love, School Days, and Endless Harmony.  This record is Exhibit A for why post-60's Brian and Mike just don't work well together .

Keepin' the Summer Alive was the first bad Beach Boys album I listened to, and I was pretty amazed at how low they could go. Granted, I've purposefully avoided Summer in Paradise for these last few years, but I can't imagine the songwriting is much worse than what KTSA has to offer, other than just being coated in obnoxious, smelly cheese. And the production on this album is flatter than champagne leftover from New Year's Eve. "Goin' On" is the only song worth keeping.

I rarely listen to it, but I think the standout track, if there is one, is Santa Ana Winds. Too bad they didn't release the alternate, unspoken version which is even better. I thought some of the songs like WGGT, Sunshine, Some of Your Love were really REALLY bad!

"Santa Anna Winds" sounds like it could have been part of the California saga..very good song that sounds out of place on the album. "Living with a Heartache" is a cool song. "Going On" is okay. "Keeping the summer alive" is okay. "When girls get together" (as an instrumental) is great, the album version with the bad lyrics and the horrible production ruins a great instrumental. "Oh Darlin'" is Okay (for Brian). "Sunshine" is okay but not great (I prefer the solo song from "Imagination" better). "Some of your love" sounds too much like "wont you Come out tonight" in parts. "Endless harmony" starts off really boring but when Carl's voice comes in the song gets really good,  "School Days" is really the bottom of the barrel for them, one of their worst cover tunes. So I would say the album is just okay with a handful of good songs and a couple great songs. The same with "MIU". not as bad as people say but nothing special either. these two are nothing like "SIP".

Livin With A Heartache is truly one of the worst Beach Boys songs of all time. Such a dirge of a song.

That said, I love the title track, Some Of Your Love, Santa Ana Winds and Goin On.

Great Album. WAY better than 1985, and keeps you awake better than L.A. Right up there with Carl and the Passions in my books.

Great songs:

Some of Your Love (classic Beach Boys, what's not to love here?)
School Day (great song, spirited performance, I happen to like rock music!)
Goin' On (one of my all time BB-faves, nothing guilty in this pleasure.)

Good songs:

When Girls Get Together (odd, but beautiful. Opened my mind to realize how women think, thanks boys!)
Santa Ana Winds (Al doing what he does best.)
Endless Harmony (epic, the great American story put to music, where it belongs.)

Less good songs:

Okay, both Carl songs on this one are quite bland. Semi-catchy at best.

sh*t:

Sunshine (but hey, it adds value, I mean this is THE only BB song I really, really don't like. Thatä's some achievement.)

By any chance would you happen to know if there's anywhere online where that performance is posted?  It used to be on Youtube (two videos - one of Keepin' the Summer Alive and another one of Good Vibrations/Goin' On) but it has disappeared. 

I was going to provide a link to it, but indeed I couldn't find it upon a quick YouTube search.

There was a "Best of" DVD compilation of the "Friday's" show released a few years ago, and they cleared some musical performances for that set. Alas, it didn't include the Beach Boys.

Thanks for letting me know.  That's a real shame though because it was a great performance!

I think the KTSA album would benefit from an entirely new remix.

A remix could help, although if you compare the rough mix of "Da Doo Ron Ron" floating around to the eventual "official" mix on "Made in Calfornia", I think the MIC remix is too wet/reverb-laden.

The original KTSA mix is kind of dry and boxey, but I don't think just adding reverb would help. It would be interesting to hear what the raw multitracks sound like I suppose.

Well, that's kind of what I mean. The whole thing is so processed and sterile that it doesn't even sound like a real band. I think the album needs to be remixed so it sounds more like an actual "live in the studio" sound.

For my tastes KTSA is THE BEST Beach Boys STUDIO album released after Holland until TWGMTR.  As someone pointed out [checking back it was my old friend KDS]  EVERY album [even Love You] has at least 2 or 3 very good to out and out great songs.  KTSA has more really good songs than any of the others.  Production-wise it perhaps would have benefited from someone stronger than Bruce to try and pull it off.  But heh!!!!  There's worse than this.  [Here Comes the Night at the Disco for example.]  It goes without saying that sometimes even good 'prod' can't save a bad idea.

Keeping the Summer Alive...Not necessarily their best effort but it does include some Joe Walsh guitar work and so I'll accept it as at least a 1/2-assed effort.  I was working in Winnipeg at the time...and we thought we'd play it.  Some days it works.  Some?  Maybe not so much.  Certainly the WRONG song to start off the album.

Oh Darlin'...I like it.  I like it a LOT.  We also played this one.  The sax thing doesn't ruin it for me.

Some of Your Love.  Yick!!!  Pure dreck.  Not worthy of even being recorded.  None of your love thanks.  Not even the fake Beach Boys would play this kind of poo.  {Oh wait.  I forgot.  They do include Pieces Brother.}

Livin' With a Heartache. A  VERY good song.   I was the station Program Director at that time.  We played this one.  [and gladly]  We played the title track too as Randy and his family were Winnipeggers.  We played the Ironhorse songs he wrote with Carl too.

School Day.  Good fun.  Nice job.  Another connection with Chuck dating back to 1963 and their very first HUGE hit.  [both the single AND the album]  We played this one too.


Maybe Side 2 should have been Side 1... ... ...  The song order, as is, doesn't work at all


Goin' On...Yep!!!  This song has 'it' goin' on.  And we played it.

Sunshine...THIS is a GREAT Beach Boys song.  One of their very best ever.  Should have been a single.  It's was a perfect sound for them.  Hip even.

When Girls Get Together.  Well... ... ...NO.  Poop on a stick really.  Wouldn't play this one even on the competition's station.  Barf-worthy.

Santa Anna Winds...A 50/50 kind of 'I can take it or leave it' kind of filler tune.  Not bad I guess.

Endless Harmony.  Yep.  Works for me.  We played this one a little bit too.  "And we sang God Bless America"...gets me every time and I generally loathe that kind of chest thumping nationalism from south of the border.  This one strikes me as real and sincere.
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So, after all is said and done, 6 good to really good ones.  2 50/50 songs and 2 pieces of out and out dung.  Pretty good stuff for THAT era of the group's existence.

Yes...THIS l.p. is underrated.

Really wish there was a Carl version of the Ironhorse song "What's Your Hurry Darlin". Possibly the best of the Bachman/Wilson collaborations. Easy to tell who wrote what on this one - Carl verses, Randy choruses.

I agree, What's Your Hurry Darlin sounds great.....would sound even better with Carl vocals, and the Boys on bv.

I think a good live boxed set that includes KTSA material would be the best bet to hear some of the songs in a more punchy mode.

In 1980, they had all of the following songs in the setlist at one point or another:

Keepin' the Summer Alive
Goin' On
Livin' with a Heartache
Some of Your Love
Santa Ana Winds
School Days

By the end of the year, only "School Days" had survived. I've always been surprised by how quickly "Goin' On" was dropped from the setlist; it was dropped before they even made it to the summer tour.

Yeah. The Ironhorse singer, Frank Ludwig, does a nice job of it, but he's not Carl Wilson.

I would buy a live cd featuring those songs.

The April 1980 Philadelphia show is actually purchasable as a download:

http://www.concertvault.com/the-beach-boys/spectrum-april-18-1980.html

That website also has a couple other 1980 shows, including the DC show that includes "Santa Ana Winds."

I do remember being mocked by the owner of a mom and pop record store for wanting to purchase this album from him!  That was kind of the prevailing attitude regarding Les Bois around that time period, at least in my experience....I bought it anyway and was so disappointed in it that I thought maybe he was right!

COMMENT:   As you may recall, I was the chief engineer on this album. Following are some details, from the engineer’s perspective, that may be of interest.

Bruce Johnston was selected by the group to produce this album. Bruce called me and ask if I would engineer this time. It had been many years since Brian’s house studio in BelAir was closed.

I’m sure as a favor and recognition for his contribution to their music, everyone agreed to do the entire album at Rumbo Studios, designed and owned by Daryl Dragon. There were three large studios in the complex, plus a luxurious lounge and food bar decorated in a nautical theme – even portholes to look out. It was a first-class facility.

The Beach Boys booked the entire studio complex for two months. Lock out.

All the studios had English made Neve boards. These were (electrical linear circuit) Class A consoles and highly rated. All tape machines were Swiss made by Studer. The studios were acoustically easy to work in and beautifully finished.

I chose one studio for the standard control room, in which all songs were mixed down. The other studios were used for variation, and from time to time, my second would engineer add-one-instrument session in another studio while others were working in the standard studio. But for the most part, most everything was recorded in the standard, or main control room, because of the recording equipment. 

This was to be the most complex analog recording the boys ever did. Two monster Studer 24 track (2”) tape machines dominated one wall behind the console. The two machines were tied together (master and slave) to provide 46 tracks of analog audio. One, non-audio track (Track 9) on each machine was dedicated to “synchronization” that kept the two machines in absolute running sync. In practice it took about 15 seconds from the time you pushed the start button until the two machines were in sync. The fully analog console had 96 I/O modules (sliders) that were able to remember position and move to it. An excellent sounding console that was automated in the analog realm.

Far-field monitors were JBL. Near-field monitors were Yamaha.

Bruce as producer was there every day – and quite organized with a daily production agenda. Even though they had only two months, this was not to become much of a group effort, as a group. Rather, each day one Beach Boy would visit and do some recording that Bruce had conceived, or they would work on something together. Most of the time it was Bruce interacting with only one Beach Boy. Carl was there about 70% of the time and Alan 40% and Michael 10%.  Dennis popped in one time, but only listened. If I remember correctly, Brian also visited once along with Marilyn.

Outside musicians were used for many of the sounds on this album. Obviously, lots of stacking was done for vocal sound – good thing we had all those tracks.

My personal feeling about the album is that technology dictated too much of the production value. I call it “the multi-track dichotomy.” That is, the desire to fill every available track. Too much production – some would say, over produced. Having engineered for them in both situations, I know they work better as a team with fewer tracks. But at the time the team seemed fractured due to private life schedules, living in different cities, personal feelings. Of the few days two or more boys were there at the same time, they recorded in separate studios.

So I think this is reflected in the finish product, although Carl manages to give us some wonderful leads.

I have never liked any of the masterings I’ve heard for this album. Some day I’ll re-master it as a study-video, and bring out what is missing for . . .

Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper

Mr. Desper, do you have a favorite moment and/or favorite track from this album? Any particular moments/anecdotes with any of the guys that stick out to you during your time recording this?

Thank you so much for you insight! That studio sounds like it was an amazing place.

A study video would be most enlightening,  I can imagine

THAT would be ultra cool.  As always... ... ...Thanks for the input Stephen.

I'd also say the "Going Platinum" TV special/documentary on the making of the KTSA albums is quite interesting, and surprisingly honest about the album's iffy chance at being a "hit" for the band.

It also has some good recording studio footage; I believe some of the footage was shot at Al's Big Sur studio, including a cool quick bit of footage of the guys doing group vocals on "Goin' On."

Also interesting is that in the lip-synched performances of some of the album songs shown in the TV special, shot in a TV studio in LA, at least a couple of the mixes of the songs are different from the eventual album. I recall in particular that the end of "Oh Darlin'" has less vocal overdubs.

There's an interview somewhere from 2000s where Al mentions in passing that he seemed to be disappointing and/or frustrated that the band didn't use his Big Sur studio more; as in, he built this studio presumably at least in part with group work in mind, and they never used it as much as he would have liked.

Honestly this album isn't and hasn't been on my regular playlist or any list in general...BUT if there were an opportunity to hear it remastered with a new sonic perspective and commentary, I'd definitely welcome that with open ears!

COMMENT to rab2591:  Rumbo Recorders was a great studio in it's day. I don't know if it is still there as a studio or not.

Here is a link to the old website (now defunct) >>> http://captainandtennille.net/rumbo_pgs/rumbohome.html

At the link you can see the outside of the building, the lounge, studio A control room and studio room, and little photos of Studios B & C.

Not shown is the secret, or should I say, unknown to most people, upstairs studio build on the top floor and part of the building's attic. It was for the private use of Daryl Dragon. In it were several synthesizers, keyboards, console, and a couple of large couches for those late-night-sessions. it had a separate entrance apart from the studio so Daryl could come and go without notice. In addition to the studio profit, Daryl had income from the many "contract recordings," as they are called in the commercial production end of this industry. You would be impressed with how many commercial themes, or themes used in commercials, that Daryl was behind. Such themes or jingles go without credit, of course, but nevertheless someone has to compose them and he was good at it. Themes would be the music behind some statement, the most famous being, Doris Day singing: See the USA in your Chevrolet. But themes also may not have words like this >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRLyMjvug1M  , which is the INTEL theme. Someone had to write this for an ad agency -- and that's the sort of thing Daryl did in his upstairs workshop.

Otherwise Rumbo saw many artists using its facility such as Guns and Roses Appetite For Destruction to name only one of many. There's a partial list at the website.

~swd
 

Mr. Desper -

Do you have any recollection of unreleased tracks from the KTSA sessions, like Ed Carter's "Surfer Susie,"  Carl's cover "I'll Always Love You" or a new and/or finished version of "Been Way Too Long/Can't Wait Too Long?"

COMMENT to Steve Latshaw: I may. I have lots of stuff on acetate, cassette, and reel2reel, and in my library from this and previous times. Soon I will be starting to make copies of all this stuff and make it available from time to time in the section on my website called "Archives." Many of these items are poorly labeled, but are parts that fit together to form the overall historical picture. I think many times the fan base is better equipped to peg what and where these "snippets of production" fall. Look for that to start after the second part of my book is released later this year. ~swd

what's the story behind "Oh Darlin" was that an older Brian song dusted off for the album or was it a song he started (on a demo?) and Mike finished it? also was "Jamaican Farewell" one of the choices for the album like the rumors say? and if so is there an actual Beach Boys version of that song in the vaults?

COMMENT to joshferell: It's not outside the realm of posibillities, but I can bring no facts to the subject. Sorry  ~swd

That's okay.... :-)

I've never heard of any evidence that "Oh, Darlin'" was an extremely older song dusted off.

It is interesting that the "early" version/mix of the song features all Brian lead vocals, some alternate lyrics, and no lead vocal at all on the bridge. Brian's vocal sounds very much to me like a "guide" vocal rather than at attempt at a finished, polished lead. I wouldn't be surprised if he may have assumed all along he would be handing the vocal off to Carl.

But I tend to think it's possible that the simplest answer is likely, that they simply rewrote some of the lyrics (perhaps where Mike's contribution came in most strongly), and then re-recorded the lead vocals with the smoother Carl lead and then with Mike's bridge.

Again, I *love* the dissonant backing vocals under that bridge. It's so weird they pretty rarely did something like that, especially in this era.

Mr Desper, you say the members of the band come in sporadically and recorded separately. Was this also done when recording the harmonies, and, if this was the case, how could they record the harmonies separately?

While it's possible the "Red Barn" sessions in the "Going Platinum" TV special were sort of done just for the cameras, that footage shows the group together doing vocals for "Goin' On", and Brian, Carl, and Mike around a piano working on "Goin' to the Beach", so I would imagine they weren't literally *always* working on the album one-by-one and did do some group vocal sessions.

I was wondering the same thing, where do the Red Barn sessions for vocals fit in the timeline?

I actually dig this album...maybe more than most for sentimental reasons.  But putting sentiment aside, I think it really is solid.  The only tune I DON'T like is "When Girls Get Together".  The title track I like slightly less than the rest but it's really quite a good LP.

For the record, and not with popular opinion, I like Beach Boys '85 quite a lot too.

COMMENT to Cabinessenceking:   In a word, track-stacking.  ~swd

I wonder whose idea it was to put WGGT on the album? Bizarre inclusion to say the least.

<<I wonder whose idea it was to put WGGT on the album? Bizarre inclusion to say the least.>>

I asked Bruce about this after a show in Paducah, KY, in 1982.  He said when he was considering vault tracks to fill out the album he took a listen to it and loved the tympani part.  He said, and I quote, "I told Carl this had to be on the album."  He loved it. 

Thanks, Steve. That's interesting to hear. I can understand why Bruce would have liked elements of that song, as I do too, yet I think it's an odd duck that doesn't fit in, plus I dislike both the lyrics and lyrical melody. I'd probably like it with a completely different set of lyrics, and a different lyrical melody too.

I have always liked that brief break/transitional part in WGGT at 1:05, which for some reason reminds me of an old TV show production logo or TV station ID music cue of some sort. I wish I could pinpoint what exactly it's reminding me of.

I just had a bit of an "epiphany". You know that final "workbook" at the end of Endless Harmony? I wonder if it's based on the "woo woo woo wooooooooo" bit from the Smile Sessions? It sounds quite similar to me.  ;D

That's an awesome observation. Totally in agreement on that one.

I have no idea how "woo" turned into "workbook". Thank you, autocorrect.  ::)

:Lol I was as confused as Andy Doe hooked up to a polygraph

 :lol

I've seen video of them recording the vocals for Goin On many times... As a group.

I just really disagree with whoever thought it was a good idea to add a phaser to EVERYTHING.  It would be a much better album without that distracting cheese.

BB85 is a solid album. Sure, wish they had used more guitars and real drums, and Brian's songs aren't nearly as good as what he saved for BW88, but it's a good listen. Carl is at his best, with some excellent songwriting and singing.

I'd like to know more about these production decisions too, but perhaps with not as much of a pessimistic tone, lol... :-D

If Mr. Desper has any insight on the decisions to add some of these effects I'd absolutely love to read his thoughts from where he sat behind the board!

I have *zero* knowledge on this relative to the KTSA album, obviously, but related to situations up to the present day, sometimes the decisions to add certain sounds, mix or master a certain way, or even add a different aural sheen to a mix or master than the artist/producer originally featured can come from "above", as in the label or those in the offices rather than the musicians.

Many, many tales can be recited about how a record is handed in, finished with a final mix, and either the person doing the mix or others involved get it rejected by "the label guys" who make comments about making it "sound more like a hit", "make it more punchy", "make the bass more thumpin'", etc. It's people involving themselves from behind an office desk, who had no skin in the game creatively and didn't contribute a note of music or drop of sweat to the project, in the pursuit of making more money and getting more feathers in their own hat.

When the Autotune craze was at its peak, literally everywhere on top 40 and download charts, how many label weasels do you think sent back a mix and ordered that more effect be added to the lead vocal? They want a hit...if there is an effect like phasing or autotune or the Eventide Harmonizer or even the old Aural Exciter that is prominent on hit records of that time, there might be requests to add that to a song even though the general public knows next to nothing about the technology but hears these sounds and associates them with hit songs.

Phasing was very much "in" throughout the 70's, especially guitar. While it could be overused, it could also be a secret weapon especially on guitar...just ask Eddie Van Halen and listen to the first Van Halen album. Almost every guitar track has either a subtle or obvious MXR Phase 90 effect, and it worked fantastically. It even got into country records, apparently there was a Merle Haggard single where the engineer suggested running the electric rhythm guitar through a Phase 90 and after that record hit the radio, phasers were all over country radio by the mid to late 70's. And this was on "country" radio no less, not the most open-minded format.

Again, just my thoughts and ramblings, hopefully Mr. Desper can address the question from his firsthand perspective related to this album.  :)

I don't hear that much actual phaser use, except for maybe some guitar pedal-type tones, which were popular at the time.

I do hear the return of Desper's famous vocal processing sound heard on Sunflower and Surf's Up though.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the "phase" decisions were made by Bruce (since he was the Producer) and Carl (because you can hear lots of phased guitar sounds on his solo record the following year).

The guitar phaser effect especially via that MXR Phase 90 pedal may have been *the* guitar effect sound of the 70's, so it's not surprising to hear the effect like that on guitar on this or other albums.

Ditto for me. Can anyone point out specific examples/timecodes of phasers audible on this album?

COMMENT to Robert James:   Yes, and I've seen videos of every major city on planet Earth being destroyed too.  ~swd

As I mentioned before, the group may have done some studio work more for the benefit of the "Going Platinum" documentary cameras, but it's really them actually together, really singing, in the studio in this footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_3ZlgzFqz8

Yikes. We are clearly enjoying different Youtube channels! 

Stephen will correct me if I'm interpreting incorrectly, but I believe he means that there are many visual representations of events in real-life places that did not actually happen.

Brian was on his second downward slide during this time, so I'm not surprised to discover that his studio presence on KTSA was minimal.

I think we would all like to hear what Stephen can bring out in these tracks that got lost in the mastering process-- but, that said, they will still remain far from the best tunes in the band's history

Like I said, I love the album. It has some fun songs and some quirky songs. Everything that Stephen Desper does to enhance any of the Beach Boys music makes me happy. Whether you think it is 'better' or not, it is certainly a new way to hear familiar music. I always come away from these listenings with a new appreciation for the group, the engineer and the music.

It is good to see the boys in the studio together, but I cannot help but think that they did that for the benefit of the cameras and the fans who are interested in seeing them record. I would expect that there would be very few distractions while recording an studio album. Probably the best way to have the least distractions is recording individually, at a time that is most convenient for you.

I liked KTSA at the time it was released......well about half of it.    Carl was still in fine voice at the time.  I like the title track, especially when performed live at Knebworth and at the D.C. Concert.  I still like watching that HBO D.C concert.   Great memories.......

That's one of my favorite BB's concerts to watch. Dennis was giving it all he had, and Carl sounded fantastic.

The DC '80 show is quite good. I tend to like large hunks of it more than Knebworth. Dennis was more put together for Knebworth than DC, though even in a somewhat compromised state, he actually does an excellent job on the drums for for DC as well.

It's interesting that, as I recall, when they prepped the Knebworth show for release around 2002 (on DVD and CD), I think Bruce seemed to feel they should have released the DC show instead. I think, in his mind, DC was a "finished" project in that they had gone in, done the small amount of overdubs, and essentially "released" that show via airing it on TV in 1980. Whereas, even with several overdub sessions, Knebworth must have still felt "unfinished" to him because it had been shelved (though several hunks of it were aired in 1981 on the "20th Anniversary" TV special).