The Smiley Smile Message Board

It's ridiculous to think now, that the freakin' Beach Boys would have had to take a back seat to anyone. (Not disrespecting the Allman Brothers, just saying in general) Crazy how much their fortunes changed post-Endless Summer.

The fact that they were even there was a sign of how much Jack Rieley improved their reputation. This was a band that was struggling to get what, 300 hundred people to show up for their tour several years earlier?

Totally. I shudder to think how much less awesomeness we'd have gotten from the band if Rieley hadn't entered the picture. Maybe something like MIU '70 or something akin to that.

There are some background points and details that should be mentioned in this discussion, namely the status of the Beach Boys in New York in 1971. Rock was still somewhat regional in nature at this time, even with FM radio and the whole free-form movement which had become the home for rock and roll, there was still a throwback to 60's AM top-40 where certain acts might be hugely popular in some regions while being lukewarm in others, and by "regions" a lot of that revolved around whatever stations the fans were listening to in their areas.

The Beach Boys had played - and packed - Carnegie Hall on Feb 24th, 1971. It was a success on all levels. They were the only band on the bill, and they delivered a knockout performance. That Feb 24th show got positive reviews including one published nationally in Billboard, and again they had packed the place. There is a radio interview with Michael Cuscuna just prior to the show where the band was on the air on WPLJ (which had just transitioned from WABC), and were taking calls from listeners. Often during that interview, fans were asking about getting tickets, and there was a great buzz around the performance...the ads even promoted it as their only NY appearance for that time. The band played a preview tape which had been compiled by their engineer on the air, with then-unreleased songs, alongside Cuscuna spinning tracks like Cabinessence during the interview.

Even on the air, they said very few tickets were left, so the buzz was already there and the show was all but sold out by the time they were on the air. February 1971 - Important to note.

At the end of the Billboard review, the writer made mention of the band coming back to New York on the strength of this Carnegie show...and they did. New York was more than friendly to the band, in 1971 I'd say the New York market was one of the biggest and friendliest fan bases the band had, and thanks to the media reports and reviews of shows like Carnegie, the band's image and demand for them to play live increased dramatically. Consider too that the band starting at Carnegie looked more "real" than they had previously. No matching suits, no schtick, no crazy outfits, just a band of real guys dressed like real guys, and it was very in tune with the era.

Fast forward into 1971. The demand was strong for the Beach Boys to come back to New York, so they did. In the fall, they did indeed return to Carnegie for more successful shows. They played Central Park, headlining the outdoor package show there, and drew however many people you want to take from observers there - 100,000...150,000...somewhere around there. The gig was filmed and broadcast later on ABC. You can watch a video showing a sea of fans moving and grooving to Heroes And Villains, etc.

They were on David Frost's show, and Dennis got the spotlight as well as being asked about Two Lane Blacktop, which was released just after the Central Park show.

The notion that the Beach Boys were at a low point in terms of demand did not hold true in New York, and wasn't true especially after the Carnegie show in February and related media reports literally lit a spark under the group's fortunes and increased their demand. 1971 was a good year.

If the Fillmore bookers were banking on what happened back in '68 to gauge the demand and viability of the Beach Boys as a featured act, they were clueless. Remember that Graham's Fillmore - and this can be shown clearly by seeing who else was on the bill for that final show - was focused a lot on blues-based acts, and specifically those who would feature extended jams. The Beach Boys were not and never were a band to feature jamming or even heavy blues-based excursions. But they were, actually, in demand in New York by the time the show actually happened and a lot of it was on the strength of their songs, which they managed to fill several hours' worth into the sets at Carnegie and floored people by being so damn good at doing it.

I'd say the Fillmore bookers had their reasons to be wary about booking the Beach Boys to the gig, but I'd also say they must have had their heads in the sand regarding the band's profile and demand fro them in New York at this time. And that can kind of hilariously be shown by watching video of the band in Central Park playing for over a hundred thousand fans just a week after the Fillmore.

Arguing about order of appearance and who will open for whom is age-old showbiz stuff regarding ego and the fear of getting upstaged, etc. Same with who gets billed as the headliner versus the lead-up acts.

But the band at this time in 1971, following the triumph of Carnegie in February, was actually a hot act, they were making money, they were getting positive press coverage, and they were getting both respect and getting noticed. So '71 was a good year. Whatever Reiley was doing was working, and the band was delivering great shows.

There are some background points and details that should be mentioned in this discussion, namely the status of the Beach Boys in New York in 1971. Rock was still somewhat regional in nature at this time, even with FM radio and the whole free-form movement which had become the home for rock and roll, there was still a throwback to 60's AM top-40 where certain acts might be hugely popular in some regions while being lukewarm in others, and by "regions" a lot of that revolved around whatever stations the fans were listening to in their areas.

The Beach Boys had played - and packed - Carnegie Hall on Feb 24th, 1971. It was a success on all levels. They were the only band on the bill, and they delivered a knockout performance. That Feb 24th show got positive reviews including one published nationally in Billboard, and again they had packed the place. There is a radio interview with Michael Cuscuna just prior to the show where the band was on the air on WPLJ (which had just transitioned from WABC), and were taking calls from listeners. Often during that interview, fans were asking about getting tickets, and there was a great buzz around the performance...the ads even promoted it as their only NY appearance for that time. The band played a preview tape which had been compiled by their engineer on the air, with then-unreleased songs, alongside Cuscuna spinning tracks like Cabinessence during the interview.

Even on the air, they said very few tickets were left, so the buzz was already there and the show was all but sold out by the time they were on the air. February 1971 - Important to note.

At the end of the Billboard review, the writer made mention of the band coming back to New York on the strength of this Carnegie show...and they did. New York was more than friendly to the band, in 1971 I'd say the New York market was one of the biggest and friendliest fan bases the band had, and thanks to the media reports and reviews of shows like Carnegie, the band's image and demand for them to play live increased dramatically. Consider too that the band starting at Carnegie looked more "real" than they had previously. No matching suits, no schtick, no crazy outfits, just a band of real guys dressed like real guys, and it was very in tune with the era.

Fast forward into 1971. The demand was strong for the Beach Boys to come back to New York, so they did. In the fall, they did indeed return to Carnegie for more successful shows. They played Central Park, headlining the outdoor package show there, and drew however many people you want to take from observers there - 100,000...150,000...somewhere around there. The gig was filmed and broadcast later on ABC. You can watch a video showing a sea of fans moving and grooving to Heroes And Villains, etc.

They were on David Frost's show, and Dennis got the spotlight as well as being asked about Two Lane Blacktop, which was released just after the Central Park show.

The notion that the Beach Boys were at a low point in terms of demand did not hold true in New York, and wasn't true especially after the Carnegie show in February and related media reports literally lit a spark under the group's fortunes and increased their demand. 1971 was a good year.

If the Fillmore bookers were banking on what happened back in '68 to gauge the demand and viability of the Beach Boys as a featured act, they were clueless. Remember that Graham's Fillmore - and this can be shown clearly by seeing who else was on the bill for that final show - was focused a lot on blues-based acts, and specifically those who would feature extended jams. The Beach Boys were not and never were a band to feature jamming or even heavy blues-based excursions. But they were, actually, in demand in New York by the time the show actually happened and a lot of it was on the strength of their songs, which they managed to fill several hours' worth into the sets at Carnegie and floored people by being so damn good at doing it.

I'd say the Fillmore bookers had their reasons to be wary about booking the Beach Boys to the gig, but I'd also say they must have had their heads in the sand regarding the band's profile and demand fro them in New York at this time. And that can kind of hilariously be shown by watching video of the band in Central Park playing for over a hundred thousand fans just a week after the Fillmore.

Arguing about order of appearance and who will open for whom is age-old showbiz stuff regarding ego and the fear of getting upstaged, etc. Same with who gets billed as the headliner versus the lead-up acts.

But the band at this time in 1971, following the triumph of Carnegie in February, was actually a hot act, they were making money, they were getting positive press coverage, and they were getting both respect and getting noticed. So '71 was a good year. Whatever Reiley was doing was working, and the band was delivering great shows.


Mostly accurate, but to claim that Carnegie Hall was packed for the February concert is quite misleading.
Originally they were scheduled to perform two shows at Carnegie Hall that night, an early and a late show.
In fact POOR ticket sales forced the promoters to cancel one show. The one show ended up being a  virtual sellout but the reality is they couldn't fill Carnegie Hall, not a very big venue,  for two shows. However, their strong performance that night was the catapult for a much stronger demand when they returned in the fall. In 1972 they had no problem selling out two shows at Carnegie Hall on Thanksgiving night. I was there for the midnight show and they were at their very best.

Mostly accurate, but to claim that Carnegie Hall was packed for the February concert is quite misleading.
Originally they were scheduled to perform two shows at Carnegie Hall that night, an early and a late show.
In fact POOR ticket sales forced the promoters to cancel one show. The one show ended up being a  virtual sellout but the reality is they couldn't fill Carnegie Hall, not a very big venue,  for two shows. However, their strong performance that night was the catapult for a much stronger demand when they returned in the fall. In 1972 they had no problem selling out two shows at Carnegie Hall on Thanksgiving night. I was there for the midnight show and they were at their very best.

Yes indeed you make some great points.  The 1968 thing had to do with the bbs or their manager questioning the integrity of Graham's people by demanding a stub count.  Graham was incensed and said he'd never book them again. Indeed when Rachlin suggested booking the bbs in January 1971 graham said he wouldn't touch them but chip was welcome to book them himself at another venue. Hence Carnegie hall. By the way I've never heard that interview do you have a copy?

"First they hoped to produce two shows with the group, but the pace of ticket sales made them settle for one show on February 24."

Was that Carlin's book? If so, that is the misleading info. Like I already said, if Chip Rachlin had tried to secure two shows for the band but could only get an agreement for one, explain how slow ticket sales would account for "settling" for one show when the second show was possibly never agreed to in the first place?

You cannot cancel a show based on slow ticket sales (or suggest that is what happened) if the booking for that show was never agreed to and therefore tickets were never offered for it.

It's easier than that. I posted an ad for the concert. Find an ad, a flyer, a magazine column, anything...advertising that tickets were being sold for two shows at Carnegie Hall. Repeating again, you cannot cancel a show for slow ticket sales if no tickets to that show were offered for sale.

The ad I posted says one show. People who were there said one show. The band said one show. The promoter said that one show was sold out by showtime, which means Carnegie Hall was, in fact, "packed".

If someone has evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Simple as that. Ads, flyers, etc...anything listing tickets for sale for two Carnegie shows in Feb 71. The evidence produced here so far says one show.

Yes, the claim is one show happened but another show didn't because of the pace of ticket sales, so Peter could straighten out how that happened. Just PM him, I'm sure he would be glad to explain/clarify if he can.

Peter isn't the only one who published that claim, and he's not commenting in this thread, or calling what was written about the band packing Carnegie Hall "quite misleading". They sold it out.

For the record, that 'ad' I posted was taken from the Carnegie Hall archives, direct from the source.

If anyone can find another ad or flyer or poster showing two shows at Carnegie in Feb 71 where tickets were being sold, produce it. Open call.

Otherwise, the suggestion that a second show was canceled due to poor ticket sales is a myth that should (and will) be busted.

And I can see where someone researching who came across that ad from 2/11/71 in the Voice decades later would take that to mean there was a second show. But to go beyond that one added line to make definitive statements about cancellations due to poor sales, there would need to be more concrete info. Namely, was anyone able to buy tickets for a second show and did they get a refund if it was canceled.

Chip Rachlin is on Facebook. Maybe he could solve the mystery.