The Smiley Smile Message Board

She's had a great career, but, well, we've talked much about Carol already.  More of the same here, really.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/04/carol-kaye-sets-record-straight.html

She's 81! For some reason I thought she was the same age as Brian.

Not happy as usual...

"About that recent article:
>>>>>>>>Well they swore they weren't going to mention that wrecking name, and they did, and not only that, they quoted the Love and Mercy film which is further slander as well as many many wrong things, too numerous to mention - I never said that at all but they felt that they have to quote that film - I told them the film had my part totally wrong.............I was afraid that they'd go for stuff that wasn't right, a little tacky on their questions but they assured me "we're your best fans - we won't mention that name nor the wrong stuff in Love & Mercy"...........that's the last time I'll believe that line.
Unfortunately......it's just another wrong article quoting some slander which they said they wouldn't do but they did anyway. Thx. This is why I turn down about 90% of requests for articles, they're into "staritis" and show-biz vulture stuff too much."[/About that recent article:

Nah, they always talk about Brian like he was just a kid. An amazing kid, but a kid.

First world problem Carol. Not unlike millionaires fighting over song writing credits. How about those earthquakes in Japan and Equador huh?

Yeah. She gets all tizzed out about the quirkiest things.

Such as cursing out the ice cream man?

When it got to the part about yelling at the ice cream truck, I thought I was reading an article from "The Onion" for a moment.

This is the second time I've seen that "no way would Carol Kaye have asked about those two keys; they're just trying to make the woman look dumb" claim.
My understanding is that the made character amalgamations for obvious practical purposes; they chose her to be representative of multiple musicians and cut others out (imagine what she would have said if they cut her out); Ray Pohlman (I think it was) is quoted saying that he asked Brian about some line simultaneously in two keys and Brian said, "I think it'll work. Let's try it." And Pohlman expressed surprise that it did.
So, they gave a real-life Pohlman anecdote to Carol Kaye and cut Pohlman as a character. Insulting to Carol Kaye????

I forget who it was who told the story -- definitely not Carol Kaye -- but the anecdote about the two keys is related in the bonus interviews section of the Wrecking Crew BluRay/DVD package. So it really happened, just not with Carol.

The commentary on the DVD/Blu-ray explains the actual purpose of including the "two different keys" dialogs. It's....very eye-opening. (Seriously, people, watch Love and Mercy with the commentary. It's like seeing the movie for the first time all over again.)

She has to be bi-polar or something. She seems to have terrible mood swings. Not to mention bad luck. Her first husband and fiance died in the same week? I guess that'd make me a bit bitter towards the world.

one of her daughters too. Have to admit, I am biased toward female guitarists, so I like Carol. It's very difficult instrument.

Yeah, okay, seems like she can be difficult. But you know what? Beethoven was a dick. John Lennon was a dick. John Fogerty. Dylan. Miles Davis. As an instrumentalist, CK is in the same genius league as they are, and that's not even stretching it. Why don't people cut her the same slack as for the aforementioned? Great musicians very rarely are easy people to deal with, so deal with it.

Edit: i'm not saying it's okay to be a dick if you're good at music, but just saying, treat 'em equal.

Yes, lots of musicians, entertainers, and even regular people can be jerks.  There is no denying that.  If Carol was just an egomaniac or less than nice, I don't think she'd get as much crap as she does.  What bothers me, and I dare say most others, about her is that she continually demeans the work of other musicians by insisting that she played certain parts on certain songs despite the fact that hard evidence exists and has been presented to her showing otherwise.  I don't think anyone expects someone who has done so much work in the business to have a perfect memory, especially later in life, but if someone shows absolute proof that goes against your statement, why not acknowledge it and move on?  It's not only a hit on her, it also tarnishes the legacy of the people that actually did play those sessions. 

Carol Kaye is a legend.  Her place in music history is undeniable and incredibly influential.  She doesn't need to claim other artists work as her own to bolster her reputation.  Her repertoire is far above that.  I think she still hangs on the the hang ups of being a female in a male dominated world  in her time and still feels that she has to validate herself and that any accusation that she feels is "against" her is seen as an attack, even if there is legit evidence to back it up, and she gets defensive.  It's understandable if you have experienced a background of sexist attitudes against you, but again, her legacy speaks for itself.  She doesn't need to continually fib to build herself up.

Cosmic Dancer - When I think of how hard it must have been for Carol in Music within a man's world, I can cut her a lot of slack with whatever details might be inconsistent.  She must have had to develop a thick skin to withstand the b.s.  Re-reading years later, how Jules Siegel reported on some of the sessions, I found his characterization of her utterly disgusting and more-so because it found it's way into textbooks for young people to believe that garbage.   

Maybe he was just in that macho-man mindset that occupied time and space in those days.  When they talk about omitted musicians for various awards, I think just surviving the sexist eras should put her in a unique class.  Brian likes her work.  That is enough for me.  ;)

I think Carol should be proud that she's as recognized as she is today. 

A lot of session musicians from the 50s and 60s were just faceless players, but thanks in part to her association with Brian Wilson, she's not just a faceless bassist (say that three times fast). 

I'm not saying she's not a great bass player.  When I read a thing about John Lennon, of whom I a big fan, and the journalist lets a lot of his false statements or exaggerations pass, I'd mention that on a message board as well.
How many threads have you seen about Lennon or Dylan where someone didn't point out all their actual or perceived flaws?

And, those people were not only great instrumentalists they were also great composers or lyricists or both.

It is true that countless famous and noted writers and musicians and famous people are dicks. But I don't think Lennon for instance is comparable to Kaye.

We unfortunately sometimes measure how much of a dick someone is allowed to be based on how good they are at what they do. I'd say Lennon rarely came across as uniformly of a dick as CK does in many interviews and rantings, and I'd also say Lennon's talent and output was far more impressive and *far more unique* than anything CK ever did.

She was (is?) a great bass player, but there were numerous great bass players of her caliber then and now, or of arguably higher caliber. The talent of Lennon (or Fogerty or Beethoven for that matter) to write unique material was, well, far more unique!

I think Brian's stuff (and the stuff of most of the artists she played for) would have been recorded and lauded without CK. Doesn't mean she wasn't a great player.

Meanwhile, Beatles stuff wouldn't have happened or been remotely the same without Lennon, and Fogerty was obviously beyond integral to CCR.

I'd also say Lennon didn't often take credit for vast swaths of material that perhaps other people wrote or played. Sure, he was a little butt-hurt when Harrison wrote his book and barely mentioned Lennon. But on stuff like songwriting, it's interesting that Lennon and McCartney in separate interviews over the years almost never disagreed about who wrote what. I think it's documented that they disagreed on about two songs in their entire catalog, and even then one wasn't trying to strip the other of songwriting credit even on those songs.

Make no mistake, Lennon and McCartney both lived (and live) high on the hog and had moments of showbiz sell-out. But they also both did a ton of stuff for a myriad of charities, and obviously Lennon was vocal as an anti-war advocate, etc.

In the list of people that are infamous for being "dicks", I'd say perhaps Fogerty regularly appears on that list. Even then, most of his vitriol, rightly or wrongly, seems to be pointed specifically at former CCR members, as opposed to random "Ice Cream Truck" drivers.

I've never seen Lennon put on such lists. He's known to have had many personal flaws (at least some of which he admitted to). I've always felt people like Dylan and perhaps even Miles Davis were more on the "eccentric" and "weird" or "difficult" lists more than being known as total dicks in the industry. 

Yes, the aforementioned people may have shown signs of dickery. But consider this: making claims about playing on records you didn't (in which there's documented proof that you didn't play on them), and then having an attorney send a threatening letter because that person called you out on claiming you played on those recordings? That...is true dickery. (It's especially telling when that lawyer sends a follow-up letter apologizing...) That woman....is a piece of work.

(I still love how her "proof" that she played the guitar solo on "Surfin' USA" was "I can still play that solo to this day." By that logic, I also played the guitar solos on "Fixing A Hole" and "Atlantis.")

Well, yeah, true dat... But then again, Carol hasn't killed anyone with a hammer (yet), so that's nice about her.

Puts her above Jim Gordon, I suppose. 

I wonder how much of Carol's behavior is partially a result of her not being super wealthy (or even particularly wealthy at all - I am just assuming she may struggle, since she still gives Skype lessons for cash, for example), and her being super bitter about that.

I also wonder how Mike would react if someone asked him about Carol Kaye's reputation in relation to her crediting inconsistencies.

I respectfully think Carol Kaye may be suffering from some sort of mental illness, and really it's just quite sad to see her reputation sputter out, because she is a rad pioneer in so many ways.

Yes. She's a pioneer, who played on hit after hit after hit, yet she lost her home to bank a few years back... That can make one bitter. Plus, people often get crankier when they get older (a fact demonstrated by one or two posters on this board, haha...) If CK had Love/Wilson or LenMac-amounts of cash, story could be different.

I think the woman is ill, and it's sad.

Thing is, though...she was getting like that before she lost her home.

I didn't see anyone comment on all the inaccuracies in the article linked in the first post:

She didn't play bass on GV - at least not on the single version
Pet Sounds didn't take a year to record
The bass lines on Pet Sounds did inspire McCartney, but those bass lines were almost completely dictated to Carol by Brian, not made up by her

Some of these posts really cross the line.  Accusing someone of being mentally ill is libelous, at least in the United States.  Do people really want to risk getting this board shut down over that?

And aside from the legal implications, it's unfair and just wrong to make judgments like that.  Whatever her problems may be, I'm pretty sure that no one on this board has the direct knowledge and expertise to characterize people they don't know as mentally ill.

I get what you're saying, Jeff, but I and others I think were actually looking at that as the kinder and more sympathetic explanation for her behavior.  First of all, there's nothing wrong with being mentally ill if that's what you are.  It's something to be understood and hopefully treated.  Second, it's a more holistic way to approach the behavior of somebody who is, absent that explanation, simply acting as a horrible human being.

So, no, not unfair.  She's acting wack.  She may or may not be mentally ill, but mental illness is the kinder and more compassionate explanation.  It's the least judgmental interpretation of her behavior.

And in some cases, they weren't even dictated to Carol, but rather to Ray Pohlman (and in one case, I believe they were played by Brian himself). This is because (a) Carol's not on every single PS track (which we've known since the credits were first published in the '97 box set), and (2) on some of the tracks where she's present, she's playing guitar rather than bass (the same scenario played out on the subsequent SMiLE sessions). None of which, BTW, diminishes her role on these sessions at all - it's just for the sake of historical accuracy, and to prevent the status of Ray Pohlman from being completely overshadowed in the process.

Well it would be more than a little annoying to have the "two keys" line attributed to you if you did not ever say it.  Why did they not simply attribute the quote to Pohlman's character if he was the one who said it?

For the film they didn't want to create a speaking, named, uniquely identifiable character for every piece of dialogue that in reality was spoken by different individuals. The movie is not meant to be a literal recreation of reality. If so, it would have taken several years to watch. They condense and simplify. They had two primary identifiable speaking studio musicians, as far as I remember: "Hal Blaine" and "Carol Kaye". These characters, like those of "Brian Wilson," "Murry Wilson," "Marilyn Wilson," etc. are not meant to be considered by the audience to actually be the real person, or to necessarily say exactly what the real person said. They are meant to be avatars that act out a scene so we can understand the essence of what was happening in reality.
"Hal Blaine" and "Carol Kaye" were characters who represented both the studio musicians generally and Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye particularly.
Also, I only think it would annoying if one wanted to be annoyed. There's nothing inherently wrong with the question.

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true. 

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

Maybe we just won't agree, if we are disagreeing.  I don't think convenience and artistic license let the filmmakers off the hook, she didn't say it and they put the words in her mouth.  I'm not a filmmaker but I doubt the movie would have become impossible if a male actor had delivered the line.   

I admit I'm biased on this topic because the person who supposedly gave the "bimbo" performance is my best friend and longtime bass player.  And a damn good one, I might add, and about as far from a bimbo as one can get in real life.   She's a personification of what Kaye pioneered in that she's a female musician in a band and people that play with her give her gender just about zero thought.  She does her job.  And I know that she (my friend) was hurt by the "bimbo" bit even though she would never say so - and she's far from the first to come away with a sour feeling because of something Ms. Kaye said or did.

If the line were given to Pohlman, then there would be anger, I am sure, because Pohlman's character was given a line and Kaye wasn't, both on ego and sexism grounds (and I would somewhat agree on the latter - Ms. Kaye should have been, and was, featured).  It is clear from Ms. Kaye's track record that she has an eternal axe to grind.

I think the real problem Kaye has with the portrayal - and I'm not sure I am kidding about this - is her film character came across as a nice person.  To someone who had her teeth gritted in the sexist world of the '60s studio, she probably wanted to see (to use the un-PC term of the period) a "tougher broad."  But that doesn't excuse her absolute gracelessness or disinterest in the bigger picture of showing some class - not to mention not tarnishing her own legacy.

It just seems to me that the subjects of these movies too often don't get the fact that movies always have to take  shortcuts to tell the story. If they didn't, the movie would run for ages and be as boring as heck. The fact that Ms Kayes character got lines was an attempt to highlight her role in the music game, if in a minor way. The point of the line was to show that Brian was doing things that the music professionals found innovative. It accomplished those things.

Ms. Kaye hates the 'Wrecking Crew' name because they were never called that. She hates 'Love and Mercy' because she never wore a fire hat and never said that to Brian. She's a stickler for accuracy, except where her own credits are concerned.

When she went on her rampage about L&M (saying how inaccurate it was, saying she was made out to be a bimbo, and blasting Melinda), she admitted she didn't even SEE the damn thing.

While she may not have delivered the two key line in real life, I recall the exchange between her and Brian on tracking Surf's Up where Brian wants the first verse to "break down" in a kind of loose chaotic way and that bothers Carol, and Brian tells her not to worry about it, and she says "I DO worry!"  Its similar in that it's a questioning of what Brian was doing musically and if it would sound right, and of course Brian knew what he was doing and it did sound right, just like the "two keys" question.

Changed thread title. 

Was there a reason for having "for AGD" in the title? I know people miss him, but it seemed odd.

I guess it was directed at him originally, due to his ongoing battles with CK.

I actually didn't know that he was banned until today.  I feel a little foolish.

That's exactly right.  As I said above, I didn't know he was banned at the time I posted it.

adamghost - I wish the "right person" would be able to approach Carol.  She is 81, so I suppose she grew up at the very end of the Depression or it's after-effects.  I can only liken that generation to what I know about teaching.  I know that in most school systems you could not teach once you were married, and those policies continued until the late 50's and early 60's.  From there, you could not be pregnant, even up until the mid to late 60's and work.  Women hid their marriages and their pregnancies. 

It was a different world and shocking because I could be married, teach, and carry a baby up to (and beyond) my due date.  The unions fought against that type of discrimination.  It was not until the mid to late 60's that there was equal pay for men and women who held the same degrees and credentials. 

That is just an analogy from my occupation to wonder how hard (did she belong to a union where there was equal pay for men and women?) things must have been for her.  Even this week, a woman firefighter committed suicide and there are indications that she was bullied.  So, Carol might have some old baggage that she cannot get past.   The "right person" might be able to elicit a better perspective, going forward.  And I thought she was very well portrayed in the film.  They all were - right down to Landy. 

But when I re-read Jules Siegel, and how he characterized her, I felt sick to my stomach. And she has to know that, this article is in the textbooks for posterity.  Maybe Carol feels that having to combat this bad characterization (in this article) is just too overwhelming and from that point on, Carol felt burned forever.    JMHO of course  ;)

Well...my mom was born in the '20s and had an IQ of 160.  She was a published author and professor of French at SUNY but she was forced to quit when she became pregnant with me.  I don't think she liked that one bit.  But I don't recall her ranting to the ages about it when she was 81.  She went on with her life, wrote more books, and earned the respect of everyone she ever met with her intelligence, wisdom and class.  

I know that by right person you may well mean somebody that's female (and my sympathy for that angle evaporated when she basically called my friend's portrayal in a film, someone who epitomizes the best of feminism, that of a "bimbo") but - quick true story - an acquaintance who I know to be a very good guy texted me one day not long ago all excited because Carol Kaye wanted to work with him to tell her story properly.  I warned him she might be difficult, but he said don't worry, he was a psychologist and he would go in with the right attitude.  

Fast forward a few months later and Ms. Kaye - poster above please take note - was calling my acquaintance out by name on Facebook, warning people about him, basically accusing him of being a stalker and explicitly suggesting he was mentally imbalanced.

Anything's possible of course, but given my prior dealings with my acquaintance, and the content of his texts to me, there was absolutely nothing to suggest Ms. Kaye's characterization of him had any basis in reality.

There's a point where you just have to accept that some people are simply impossible to deal with.  I totally understand your post, dePlage, and respect where you're coming from.  My opinion is that it's wishful thinking.

adamghost - Your mom sounds great.  That was a potential direction I was going in, but could not do a double major undergrad, so I chose Early Childhood. I did some part-time post grad study in French, much later, after taking a bunch of grammar courses to bring it back, and which was even better reading, for me, as an adult with an adult perspective.  It is great literature, that we can still learn from today, I think.  Bravo to her!  And, you are so lucky to still have your mom.  I am still waiting for my "junior year abroad." - Mon année scolaire.  :lol 

The older teachers I worked with, would joke that they had "to tell the principal," they were pregnant, before they could tell their husbands. Women got very creative hiding "their delicate conditions" to stay working. By the time I came into teaching, I could work until the day I delivered and I did.  Some things had changed, thankfully.

But, I don't mean a woman necessarily to elicit her story and reflections on what it was really like to survive alongside a largely male group of co-workers. I did say "person." Often there was an assumption that if you are the only woman among a bunch of guys that you must be a "bimbo." Otherwise you would not be there as the only female.  I got the impression that she got some of that treatment from the Wrecking Crew movie.  I bet Brian could interview her, and get some great responses.  She seems to adore him.

People take disappointment, hurt and bad treatment in many ways.  Some can move on and leave it behind, and others cannot let it go and it eats away at them.  It does not have to be a woman but someone who can get beyond what seems to make her so unhappy and frustrated and hard to deal with.  If that is the problem only she can take that step to healing.

Maybe it is wishful thinking but just from being with kids for so long, I know when they "act out" that there is something underlying that is causing that response that has hurt them somehow.  What you have shared about her Facebook behavior, in your post is not a good thing. It is too bad, because it is important for young women to look to good, strong pioneers.  It would be nice to see her "soften" and maybe look backwards more philosophically.     

Carol was beautifully portrayed by your friend. 

And, thanks, I loved hearing what you shared about your mom.   :love

My hero!  ;)

Aw thank you for your sweet post.  It was really lovely.  My mom was my role model.  She died in June 2013, sadly, but she was ready to go.  She also edited several weekly newspapers and co-wrote the Cliff's Notes to "Les Miserables."  Her brother was the plant geneticist that brought us canola oil, so she came from a brilliant family.  I was truly blessed.

(http://centennial.thesheaf.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Downey-1-156x225.jpg)

Which has nothing to do with the Beach Boys...but having spent my life being around strong women, and one of them being the supposed "bimbo" in question, I admit Ms. Kaye's comments and general attitude rankles more than it otherwise might.  Besides being uncool it also runs counter to my own definition of feminism.  But I do believe the nicest way to look at it is that she is unfortunately ill and she certainly has endured her share of hardships.

Super cute!

adamghost - Wow! Thanks for the photo!  And, The Cliff's Notes for Les Misérables! Victor Hugo!  One of the greatest novels of the 19th century! And five volumes. I would love to have met your mom or have heard her speak at a 19th c. French Literature conference.  I am looking at my copy right now!  Those are best-sellers (among students) - and, they do help students get some difficult imagery concepts - although they can be substituted for doing the actual reading. 

It can be tough to be around "difficult" people. I hope someone who can disarm whatever walls she has put up, can get her reflections for posterity.  I did think watching her interact with Brian that they had a real "ease of communication."   

Thanks again for the photo.  Your mom was a gem.  :love