The Smiley Smile Message Board

Worms has always been associated with Heroes since the day it surfaced. Why?

I actually heard a vintage 1966 BW acetate which only lasted for 40-50 seconds to about a minute, but it incorporated some parts of DYLW within Heroes. Is this why Brian made Bicycle Rider the chorus to the "single" version of Heroes in 1967 in the first place? I find this hard to believe, but it's quite an interesting theory. Would anyone like to weigh in on this?

The acetate starts with Bicycle Rider, then goes off into the "I've been in this town" verse.

The "why" "and "is this why" questions are un-answerable. But Brian also used musical themes in other parts of SMiLE that were from yet other, seemingly unrelated parts of SMiLE. I THINK he was making some connection between the Plymouth Rock to Hawaii theme of "Worms" with the Old West theme of "H&V" - but SMiLE was conceived as one big, interlocking "teenage symphony to God", and symphonies contain motifs that cycle throughout - so not unexpected at all that there are connections from one song to another.

Personally I see a lot more in common between Worms and Cabin, and in the last few years I have persuaded myself to believe that had the album come out in 66/67, these two tracks would have been side by side. But certainly Heroes would have been close to these tracks as well.

Bicycle Rider from Worms was at one point considered as a "Part 2" to Heroes, replacing Great Shape.  But preceding the first verse? That's news to me.  Is this one of the Durrie Parks' acetates?  Were there vocals on the "I've been in this town" section, or could that have been a third verse section?  Has this acetate been booted?

well, at one time they were considered to be conjoined, however this concept did not stick.
http://migratingtaste.oldeenglish.org/junk/cabinessence.jpg

back to back songs, could've been

first i've heard of BR preceding HV. There are test edits of HV > BR, but not the other way around. OMP, what is this acetate that you heard that has BR > HV?

That "Worms" and "Heroes" shared musical themes became (reasonably) common knowledge over thirty years ago, when the tapes entered wider circulation.

Now, when you say "Bicycle Rider" do you mean it has the piano with the BR lyrics over it or just the piano theme. Sometimes I don't know which you folks are referring to. With the lyric, now that'd be an interesting, alternate, introduction to the song.

do you mean BR as heard in 'Worms'..?  the same parts..?

I've never heard of this version - where did you hear it..?

cheers

I've just messaged my source about the acetate, and whether I could post a link to it or not. Very interesting stuff.

Fascinating if this is a pre-Jan '67 edit. How do you know this acetate was produced 1966? Is there a date on the disc?

*gets popcorn*

Alrightey people, grab your popcorn, and worms? Here it is, the infamous acetate I was talking about... I do mention this might not be the "complete" acetate but an excerpt of most of it. I've gotta go back to my source for some more questions... In the meantime, make what you want of this! Enjoy.

Heroes and Villains (1966-1967?) acetate: vimeo.com/155754389

(Copy and paste the link onto a web browser)...

Sorry! I don't know why I wrote '66!  :P

 :o

So of the five that you have up there, are all of them actual acetates, or are some of them reconstructions of what might have been?  Certainly interesting, to say the least.

I was just about to ask the same thing myself.

Edit 1: Is...is Brian's vocal doubled on the Worms bridge? I've never heard that before.

Yeah, wow. Sounds like Carl. Definitely never heard that one before.

Hoax! Just kidding. How beautiful. If these are real you're a golden god - and the guy that supplied them.

You're right, that's definitely not Brian. Sounds like Dennis to my ears though.

There's definitely some acetate material here but I think it's mixed with fan edits.

It's Brian and Mike trading the verses.

I can't hear anything that hasn't been heard before... ???
Anyway, I agree with qoute, that there's  some acetate material but mixed together (BR-HV verse)..

Agreed, nothing new here except the order of the sections, and that in and of itself proves nothing other than someone has access to editing software. Also, I think the speed is slightly off.

Edit: for clarity, I'm talking about the 1.14 clip that the posted link takes me to.

To be fair, it looks like the guy deleted the DYLW acetate we were talking about with the alternate bridge lead.

Though it's entirely possible that clip was already out there, and I just forgot about it.

So, why delete it after about 14 hours after all the fuss about it ? I'm beginning to smell rodents...

No clue. It was definitely legit though. Would've been too hard to fake (matching sonic quality of the acetate, phase issues, etc).

TOMP, why did you delete that one? :D

And yeah, there is clearly some fan-editing on some of these. But I've got no doubt in my mind that bridge vocal was vintage + real.

The Heroes verse lead vocal sounds different to me. But again, I'm sure we've heard it before somewhere. Or maybe not.

Late to the party here... the link is still working for me, but I can't hear anything new in any of it. The split Mike/Brian lead on H&V is on SOT 17, isn't it?

And having Bicycle Rider first... well, in what I can hear, it is just literally *placed* first on the acetate. There's the BR section, and then that ends, and then there's a count-in, and then we hear H&V. The BR section isn't edited to H&V, it's just situated before it as a separate thing.

From memory, I seem to recall that there were a few of these acetates with different sections of different songs on them. Wasn't it the case that Brian took acetates of all sorts of stuff home from the studios to check out. A few years later, these would probably have been on cassette - just dubs of the various bits and bobs he'd been working on recently at the time, so he could gauge progress.

So I would have said that the fact that BR is plonked next to H&V on an acetate doesn't actually mean a thing. And, I would say, certainly doesn't imply that BR was going to be put before the first verse of H&V in any kind of finished mix... surely?

im so confused.  ???

All good Matt, agreed.

I do not own these acetates, and I have never claimed to make that video. I have no idea this person took down that video. I'm only taking such things as a pinch of salt in terms of credibility, but it is rather interesting. And the acetate video was only meant to be one video, and I don't know how people are seeing five videos and stuff.

I have no idea whether this is an actual acetate. I'm supposing it is, but it could very well not be too. A guy on Vimeo started talking to me about how he was going to make his mix of Heroes, and he started talking about an acetate which confrimed Worms was part of the song (at least Bicycle Rider). He linked me a video to it, and that's how this buisness got started.

Dude with the acetate just contacted me to explain. He took it down by mistake, it's back up now.

What say you? Have you heard this Dennis / Carl lead on "Worms" before?

So I ask the inevitable question... Was Bicycle Rider part of Heroes? Is so, that would explain why a recycled Bicycle Rider became the chorus to Heroes in the summer of '67....

Maybe that Bicycle Rider clip was the intro at some point. The keys are different, the verse would jump up +1 semitone, but that kinda works actually.

Who knows (no-one).  While it's interesting to hear the sequence, I personally think it unlikely that Bicycle Rider would have been part of Heroes.  While there is the melodic recycling you mention, the two pieces have a different energy or groove if you like, that don't work together when the "full" DYLW is used. 

Heroes kicks off with an energetic relatively pacey clip and gells well with the little dit ba-dit dit dit dit dit bits and the preludes etc.  DYLW works well with BR and maintains it's own kinda mellow groove.  IMO, of course for anything Smile Sessions related.

And, whether new or stuff or no, thanks for the link and the dude who's link it is - saved me from fumbling around piles of old cd-r's and hard-drive archives to hear this stuff again.

Hey. The guy has the acetates has a question, and he'd like me to share it with you: What was supposed to come after Bicycle Rider? We all know that the Bridge to the Indians was likely going to connect us to Roll Plymouth Rock, and then Bicycle Rider rings out, but what was supposed to come after that.

In the Smiley Single, another verse rings out, but there not really in the same key... What other vocal ditties are there that could possibly connect us back to the second Heroes verse?

Here's the edit he made (not an actual vintage edit), and it only goes up to BR, and then back to the first verse as an example of what could've come next ala the Smiley Single, but there has to be something that could've connected us back to a possible second verse. Heres the vid, enough blab: vimeo.com/153429318

Bicycle rider was the "chorus" of DYLW, had nothing to do with Heroes at the time it was recorded as far as we know - after Worms was recorded Brian played Heroes for Humble Harv Miller (the 'demo") and BR is not part of the song at that time.  After Brian decided to take Great Shape out of Heroes, BR was considered as a replacement section - hence the January work on BR (as a "Heroes" session) and you can hear on the joint Brian/Mike leads on SOT that BR is clumsily edited on AFTER the first two verses.  This BR on the acetate is the same BR we hear edited on after the verses - it starts with the same "edit" not a cold start but an edit into the section already started.

We don't hear a vocal on the Brian/Mike leads version of BR because the tape cuts off before the vocals come in.  I suspect if the tape kept running we would hear what we hear on the acetate.  The vocal sounds different on BR here than it does on what was previously released on boot and on TSS - might be an alternate vocal that was redone or doubled later.  It also does not have the overdubbed fuzz bass that was put on Jan 5 as well.

This is likely an acetate to hear the work in progress - what the Heroes verse and the Bicyclerider section sounded like, so Brian could decide if further work was necessary - ad I agree the order on the acetate doesn't really indicate that BR was at any time considered as an intro to the song.  If it was, why would it cut in the way it does?  It would start at the beginning.

Bridge to Indians was a Heroes section not a Worms session, and would likely have led into Bicyclerider, not Roll Plymouth Rock.    if BR had become part of Heroes, what would come after?  We don't have any edits/mixes that would indicate what comes next except the Dec acetate of heroes that goes Great Shape/fast "my children were raised . . . Often wise"/3 score and five, the 3rd verse.  So if B R is replacing Shape, it is reasonable to think "children were raised" might come after, but since Brian was continually tinkering with the sections something might have come before it, like "Bag of Tricks" for example.

The alternate bridge vocal on worms has been out there for years. Its on the Vigatone SMiLE boot.

Thanks for confirming. Had a feeling it wasn't new.

I just listened to the "DYLW 2" video, and I'm perplexed. The "Hawaiian chant" doesn't sound like Brian at all to me. More like Dennis with a cold. You can also hear the pedal steel part in the background. 

Right, that's not Brian! Listened to the Smile Vigotone 110 Smile boot and indeed there's this mix with Dennis? vocal...
Also on the same boot there's this BR/HV 1st verse acetate!

After listening to it a few times, it almost sounds like Dennis and Carl singing together.

Ok, just to clarify, the first video I linked with BC preceding the verse is the only edit that might be vintage. All the rest are probably the dude's own fan edits. At least, that's what I think.

OK, finally listened to the right (?) version. The "Hawaiian" chant bridge is almost certainly Dennis. It's also something I've heard before, many years ago... and when I can recall when & where, I'll surely tell you.

So do you think this acetate is legit? If so, it could reveal a key part in the construction of the song.

I don't believe what we're hearing on that link is entirely what was on the original acetate (the sound levels and audio quality vary way too much), nor do I believe that was the intended order. As I recall from "GS,HG", Brian used individual acetates to work out the permutations of the sections. As ever, I stand to be corrected

From the original description of the Durrie Parks acetates, acetate 2:

 Disc 2/ 1. 0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabin Essence” (20/20 version.) 2. Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set. 3. First 45 seconds of “Heroes and Villains”. Vocal sounds  different than commercial release

It's unclear why on many of the acetates there are mixes of sections of different songs on the one acetate - I guess they would be the result of a single mixing session that Brian wanted to review or play for someone else?  People who have heard the acetates claim that the "alternate" vocals are all found on bootleg releases, but without comparing them, who knows . . .

This one? https://vimeo.com/155754389

That's just track 23 straight off the old Vigotone SMiLE vinyl. Bosco82 pointed out he heard the "acetate" bits on there, I decided to check and it sounds exact the same. Not just the same takes, but the same speed offset, same noise level, same bass boost in the right channel and treble boost in the left channel, everything in terms of sound quality is the same. No acetate here folks.

Nope Tom, this one! Listen how when it gets to the Hawaiian part it becomes Double Tracked, never heard that before.

https://vimeo.com/153445491

Just listened back to back Vigotone bootleg (track 24) and this "acetate".
Sounds same, at least to me! Maybe I have wrong ears!  ;D

But would love to know is this mix is something that was reffered in that Durrie topic ("...There is also a completely new/original keenywokapula vocal take on one of the DYLWs with a different mix. Not mindblowingly new, but mindblowingly great to listen to..."")
And of course IMGS-HV mix!

And of course would love that some of the mixing wizards on this board takes a crack at BR with kick drum, in GLORIOUS STEREO!  ;D

That's what I did with my mix of DYLW, I isolated the kick bass from an acetate by using a bass booster, then I laid it on top of my newly remastered stereo mix. You can listen to it here:

http://www36.zippyshare.com/v/7JZpZhDX/file.html

I might be wrong of course, but when I first heard that "double tracking" my first thought was the guy who posted this had overdubbed his own voice onto it. Or anybody else, but to me it doesn't sound like one of the boys' voices.

like
It means that someone who assembled Vigotone boot messed around with acetates! Don't think so.. To me it really sounds like Carl/Dennis...

I'm away from my desktop and my boots, and the conversation has me slightly lost without being able to refer the sound files being discussed. However, just want to be sure that nothing being discussed here is unknowingly referring to the Ant Bee track that was slipped on to the Vigotone boot is it?

Nope! That's track 25 on Vigotone boot!

I agree with Nile, sounds the same to me.

Great bootleg though, some bits on there have never appeared elsewhere. Like the Good Vibrations rough mix with some scatters of the vocals from the final version.

I agree with you so therefore I agree with myself!  ;D

Just to get back to acetate "Test", love the way "Bridge to indians" flows into DYLW. Seltaeb did exactly same thing in his Smile A.D. mix! Really smooth!

I listened to Vigotone bootleg track 24 now, and the Hawaiian chant is indeed the same as on the alleged acetate om vimeo. It still doesn't sound like any of the boys to me, but as I said, I may be wrong.

Well than that's settled. Thank you guys for your great insights on the "authenticity" of this supposed acetate!

Still it was great to reduscover this DYLW mix. I had this boot for about 10 years and never noticed that that BW isn't one doing lead vocal in this chant. Great thing on this guy's vimeo site is CFTM stereo vocals mix. I was under impression that those couldn't be achieved..wouldn't it be nice to find those vocals multitrack :)