The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've been listening to the stereo version of this board's namesake and it just keeps getting better and better; out of the shadow of Smile, a real classic album.  I continually hear wonderful little things buried in the mix.

I noticed for the first time (I've been listening to it since 1977) the persistent repeats of the Woody Woodpecker theme on harmonica (Woody's melodic laugh), and got a huge kick out of it.  I don't know how I missed it; Woody Woodpecker was may favorite cartoon at the tender age of 4.

But here's the real question.  Back in the 70s... the legend, heard repeatedly in the rock press... and in the interviews... was that the "Fire" tapes had been junked or destroyed.  Perhaps this was perpetrated by the Boys to keep the legend alive. I remember the 1978 Jim Ladd/Dennis Wilson interview where he described going into the vaults and listening to the tapes.  In those days we all wondered about those Fire tapes... gosh, what must they sound like to be so frightening.

As we all know now, Fall Breaks was nothing less than a redux of Fire.  I wonder if that was a source of amusement to the band... or at least Brian... that Mrs. O'Leary's Cow had been hiding in plain sight all those years...

'Twas definitely "a candle", as Brian foresaw, compared to the original, but it's nothing less than a gem from an understated album. Perhaps a source of amusement to the band, perhaps a source of uneasiness and paranoia for Brian.

I am surprised that no one ever gave up the secret back then. You would think that it would have come out in interviews done with Anderle or Vosse or even Van Dyke Parks in the late 60's and early 70's.

When I listen to Fire (Mrs..) from the Smile Sessions, I don't pick up that it's the same material as FB&BtW until the vocals come in. There are similarities, but it's hard to really pick up to me.
If Anderle et al. never heard the vocals in Fire and weren't listening for it, I can imagine them not noticing the sameness.

This cut sounds so much better in this stereo version. It benefited more than  any other Smiley track from the stereo mix. I used to think years ago, in my Smile introductory times, that it must be Earth because of the metal and wood sounds.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vocals on TSS were actually lifted from Fall Breaks and not recorded for Smile itself. The story is that when Darian played Brian the original Fire, BW started to sing the vocal line from Fall Breaks and that's how it wound up on BWPS, although it was implied that Brian had intended that line to be there during the original Smile sessions.

I think Smiley - and Pet Sounds - were the main beneficiaries of Mark's stereo treatment. It made terrific albums even better. Smiley leaps out of the speakers in stereo and is a different - superior - listening experience.

Fall Breaks… is a seriously earthy track if ever there was one. It bleeds earth!



That's my take too… right from the first night's performance at the RFH in 2004.

I've heard PS in stereo, but not SS - but after reading this, I have to!

I think "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter" was a good example of the dilemma facing The Beach Boys and especially Brian Wilson in 1967. For Beach Boys' diehards and fans of Brian Wlson in particular, "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter" was a cool track. I love it. However, to the casual fan, "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter" was the type of song which caused the Beach Boys' popularity to nosedive and led to the record company dropping them.

And, a similar effect might've happened a second time in the mid-70's when fans bought Endless Summer and Spirit Of America, and then went on to purchase the Warner Brothers' 2fer album, Smiley Smile/Friends.

Smiley and Friends? That's weird. Somebody pass me the heroin.

Mid seventies Reprise put out a pair of double albums, Smiley Smile/Friends and, yes, Wild Honey/20/20, in the wake of Endless Summer. To the considerable surprise of, well, pretty much everyone, they charted at numbers 125 and 50 respectively.

What's even weirder is that they replaced the original cover art with generic pics of bikini clad girls standing by palm trees. The liner notes in the sets were pretty good, though - especially for the pre-cd era, when you were lucky to get any info of value about the records you had just purchased.

Wow. And all this time I thought it was just 15 Big Ones and Love You that killed their career the second time.  It turns out the lo-fi trifecta (Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends) had a hand in it BOTH times. Those who don't learn from the past....   ::)

I've never considered Friends to be lo-fi...I've always thought it had a nice, clean stereo mix. As for the other two mentioned above - yes, I agree that those mono LP mixes are quite "murky", although still enjoyable!

SJS - Could not agree more.  It was an abstraction in sound and/or mood.  Experimental to the nth degree.  It is a cool but unexpected and sort of shocking track. A dissonance - and opposite of conventional BB harmony.

I've got the pairing on vinyl and they actually sound pretty natural back-to-back. Both very mellow, soft-psych masterpieces. It's the only copy of Friends I have so I pull it out pretty often.

I think the track sequence hurt the reception of the album - as someone has pointed out, non die-hard Beach Boy fans were turned off by the strangeness of Fall Breaks, and there it is, the third track on the album after the one-two punch of Heroes and Vegetables.  Followed by She's Goin' Bald - most listeners would be tuning out at this point with cries of WTF!  What if the tracks were resequenced?

1. Good Vibrations
2. Wonderful
3. Gettin' Hungry
4. Vegetables
5. She's Goin' Bald


1. Heroes and Villains
2. With Me Tonight
3. She's Goin' Bald
4. Fall Breaks
5. Wind Chimes
6. Whistle In

I don't think it was the track sequence that hurt the album at all, it was the album sequence. To follow Pet Sounds with this sh*t album was an insult to the fans. Smiley Smile was the sound of Brian Wilson giving up. Carl called it a bunt instead of a home run, wrong. It was a strikeout in the bottom of the ninth in the seventh game of the World Series. This was the beginning of a lot of trouble for the Brian and Beach Boys that they never quite recovered from.

oh I screwed up the sequence for side 1 - Little Pad would end side 1!

I strongly disagree this is a bad album - it was sequenced and mixed poorly.  The stereo mixes rock!

More sympathetic promotion might have helped - more emphasis on the comedy aspects and the "recorded at home"/unplugged aspect, even though it wasn't really unplugged but more minimalist.

<<And, a similar effect might've happened a second time in the mid-70's when fans bought Endless Summer and Spirit Of America, and then went on to purchase the Warner Brothers' 2fer album, Smiley Smile/Friends.>>

Actually, in the summer of 1976. as a High School Junior, I bought both of these twofers right after purchasing Spirit of America, Good Vibrations-Best of the Beach Boys (for Wouldn't It Be Nice), 15 Big Ones and The Beach Boys in Concert.

They didn't turn me off at all.  The liner notes for Smiley Smile were good... and prepared me for hearing something a little bit different than the norm.

How do back-catalog re-releases of 7+ year old albums charting that way equate with 1. failure and 2. killing a career? Billboard lists the Top 200 albums...most barely crack that number if at all. #50 for a repackaging of Wild Honey and 20/20 in the mid 70's? Hardly a career killer.

Can we fact-check this? The parting of ways was mutual between Capitol and the band for a variety of reasons, one of those reasons coming from the band realizing Capitol had ripped them off and failed to pay Brian as producer over a million owed in royalty payments. With all that, between Smiley Smile and the end of the Capitol contract, the band charted between the US and the UK markets six top 40 singles. Any big breakout #1 smash hits? No. But it wasn't a nosedive either where the band didn't put anything on the charts.

In both cases, following Pet Sounds (and the hits that preceded it) and following Endless Summer, people were excited for and expecting more of the same, well produced, radio friendly, pop songs.  Hungry for more, especially in the case of Endless Summer, they bought what was "new" at the record shop and, "Fool me once, shame on me..."  The fact that albums DID sell but DIDN'T translate into further sales, shows the public did NOT like what they heard and, just like in the late-60's, chose to not buy what followed.

Regardless of any merits Smiley Smile, and to a lesser extent, Wild Honey and Friends, may have, what's certain is the sounds of those albums is NOT what the general public wanted from the Beach Boys at either of those points in time and their disappointment with those albums "killed" the bands career once and helped kill it a second time.

Any fan who bought Endless Summer and thought it was anything but a greatest hits package of the classic hits...most over a decade old at that time ES was released...I'd have to question their intelligence. One was a greatest hits package, the subsequent reissues were reissues, simple as that. If they expected to hear another Surfin USA on the Wild Honey or Friends album, I'd question their stability. I'd also ask them if they'd buy a reissue of Revolver or Rubber Soul expecting to hear another She Loves You on those albums and be disappointed if they did not.

If a band reissued a previous album today, from 7 years ago, and it went to #50 on the album charts, there would be champagne corks popping around the offices of whatever label reissued it.

Forever shaking my damn head at the aesthetic wimps that can't get behind Smiley Smile's groundbreaking minimal-art-dada-punk doowop that still sounds ahead of its time today. It is a more radical art statement than I believe Smile would have been, for all its sublime grandiosity.

Bigger ain't always necessarily better, ya know! That's a false dichotomy that was imposed by the breathtaking sweep of Pet Sounds.

Between mid-September 1967 and late-ish April 1970, the band hit the UK & US Top 40 11 times (UK - 7, US - 4), 12 if you include the UK release of "Cottonfields" in May. "Do It Again" hit #1 in the UK in late August 1968.

Forever shaking my head at the people who get butt hurt when somebody doesn't share their view of Smiley Smile.  Do you really feel the need to defend it so passionately?

To quote Frank Zappa: "You'll hurt your throat----stop it!"

I love Smiley Smile; I adore it.  I also think it's kind of a mess.

That's why it's bloody amazing. It's like a diamond in the rough. The stereo mix left me completely cold, however. I think of all of Brian's stuff, that one most of all requires listening in mono. You can go on about "hearing all the individual parts" but the way they just run together in the mono mix makes sense.

It's really interesting how none of the BBs ever speak of that time period.

The only one who really spoke at any length about it is Bruce. Bruce might be the biggest fan of Smiley Smile among the band members.

Yeah that "end of an era" quote from him is most telling about the whole SS saga.

It would be pretty cool if there was an official Smiley Smile sessions set. Even the bits on the SOT set prove that Brian wasn't too quick to abandon the sections format that brought Good Vibrations and parts of Smile to life.

The vocal harmonies of stuff like "whispering winds" was the seldom remembered height of BBs group singing.

Just to throw this out there...am I the only person who refuses to listen to Smiley Smile in anything except for pitch black darkness?

That's funny. :-D
I don't need darkness for it. Smiley Smile is 10-year-old me choreographing really goofy dance moves with my friends in the sunny living room.

Yes! Absolutely!

I'd argue that most of the people who bought Endless Summer were new to the band. They may have known who the Beach Boys were but to many, this was their first major exposure and if you read that sentence again, I never said they expected another "Surfin' USA" but rather more of he same (dare I say?) formula of " well produced, radio friendly, pop songs."  The reason the fabs maintained chart success through their entire career (or even just the latter half of the 60's) is because they never gave fans expecting more of that same formula, an album's worth of "Revolution 9". "Groundbreaking" or not, it's not what the PUBLIC wanted. And when the Boys did that to them, TWICE, the public reacted the same way both times. 

"Get Back" wasn't "She Loves You" but it was much closer to it than "Gettin' Hungry" was to "Help Me Rhonda", just two years later.

That might explain why Gettin Hungry was promoted and released as a "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" release instead of the Beach Boys.

That adds even more to dispel the notion that the label dropped them because the music (like Fall Breaks) wasn't appealing to the fanbase. A dozen singles charting top 40 in under three years, spread out over the US and UK markets? Not bad at all. Some bands we consider "legendary" today were lucky to score one top 40 single during this same period.

Consider too that the top 40 was more regional in the US at this specific time, so a single like Wild Honey gets reported in Billboard's national as peaking at a lower position, while in a handful of markets that single cracked the top 5.

Did anybody ever consider GH might have been promoted as by Brian and Mike because they were the co-author team of their most recent #1 smash?

Nope.

That doesn't change the fact that it was on of side two of the Beach Boys album that followed Pet Sounds, where like the rest of the songs, it was credited to the Beach Boys.

I posted what follows about a year ago, but in an unfinished form.  Bought the original in September '67 and was perplexed and disappointed. This is the way I hear "Smiley" in 2016 and am amazed and delighted.


I have, filed away somewhere, an article entitled “Smiley Smile is Smile,” written by I can’t remember who and don’t know when, but posted somewhere on-line sometime around the year 2000, plus or minus 4 or five years before or after.

OK, so there’s my bow to the citation gods, but what follows is not really about that article.

Well, yes it is, insofar as what I’m about here takes the idea that Smiley was not merely a poor substitute, but in fact a perfectly logical, internally consistent, culmination of the Smile project. And that as released was poorly mastered, improperly sequenced and, despite the fact that all the pieces were readily at hand, inexplicably incomplete.

An incomplete album, the pieces of which can now be brought together to reveal a coherent artistic statement, on a par with Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, which must remain the benchmark against which all others are measured.

Guitars have been almost wholly removed, producing a minimalist aesthetic that is nevertheless “musical” – these guys were not simply producing an aural account of their hash parties – although the sweet, dreamy aroma of hashish does indeed permeate

The 1967 production is muddy, the 2012 Stereo Remaster reveals, not a stoned out indulgence, but rather a masterwork.

Here then is Smiley as I believe it should have, and could have, been released:


 1. Well, You’re Welcome (Smile Sessions)
 2. Heros and Villains (2001 Stereo Mix) edit sections sequence from 1,2,3,4 to 1,3,2,4
 3. Wonderful (2012 Stereo)
 4. Gettin' Hungry (2012 Stereo) edit out 1st instru section to “I wake up in the morning…”
 5. You're With Me Tonight (Previously Unreleased)(Hawthorne)
 6. With Me Tonight (2012 Stereo)
 7. She's Goin' Bald (2012 Stereo)
 8. Whistle In (2012 Stereo)
 9. Good Vibrations (Concert Rehearsal) (Previously Unreleased) (Hawthorne)
10. Mama Says (2000 Wild Honey)
11. Vegetables (Stereo Extended Mix) (Previously Unreleased) (Hawthorne)
12. Wind Chimes (2012 Stereo)
13. Fall Breaks And Back To Winter (Woody Woodpecker Symphony) (2012 Stereo)
14. Cool, Cool Water (Track)/ Water [Stereo Mix] (Unsurpassed Masters)
15. Little Pad (2012 Stereo) edit out
16. Surf's Up (1967 Solo Version)(Bonus Track)(Smile Sessions)
17. Cabin Essence (Smile Sessions)
18. Cabin Essencence Tag (Unsurpassed Masters)

Running Time: 42:22


Well, You’re Welcome serves as a doormat greeting, inviting us to enter the Smiley reverie - and down the rabbit hole. Released as the flip-side to Heros and Villains.

Heros and Villains launches the listener off on a trip to the frontiers of the American psyche, circa 1967 and is thus perhaps best understood metaphorically. It’s start/stop structure has always bothered me, so rearranging the sections yields a nice flowing shuffle before introducing the music-box motif.

Carl’s whispering lead into Wonderful flows easily out of the dancing fade out of Heros as we turn inward, entering a kind of Alice in Wonderland scenario, with its veiled references and sexual allusions, the “god vibrations” interlude something like the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party.
 
Getting’ Hungry may have served as something of a joking jolt following the “whispering winds” on Side Two but when placed after Wonderful on Side One takes on a different, I don’t know, accent – Wood blocks over a repetitive whirligig organ line - tension and release, tension and release. Lop off the first section so the song begins with Mike intoning the words “Well I wake up in the morning…” The bass note that accompanies his first syllable is the same as the na-na-na-na-na that ends Wonderful. I see the claustrophobia of the work-a-day office world alternating with landscapes drawn from a spaghetti western – trippy.

You’re With Me Tonight “with a smile” provides a nice little break in the unfolding stream of melo-dramas, a peak of the band at work in the studio reminiscent of earlier such appearances. And, of course, the ensuing little ditty conjures visions of, how shall we say – oral contraception?
“On and on she go down-be-do-down – on and on you go.” Hmmm…

She’s Goin’ Bald – Psychedelic Coasters – what are they doing here I forget. Is it Little Egypt or Along Came Jones? I get dizzy just thinking of this tune.

Coming up for air - Whistle In – “remember the day-ay, remember the night-night, all day long” – WTF??? – what does it mean? Whatever, this sweet little chant bookends Well, You’re Welcome. Between the two are five boy-meets-girl songs, the standard subject of a pop-tune, all psychedelicized to reveal whole other dimensions of meaning. Hendrix said the BBs reminded him of a psychedelic barbershop quartet (quintet?) He must have been referring to Smiley.

The single most important change in this reconfiguration is the removal of the studio hit single version of Good Vibrations at the heart of the song cycle. The dry rehearsal in its place fits perfectly the minimalist aesthetic of the album, enlightening all that has preceded it and all that will follow. The boy/girl theme is elevated to the plane of cosmic consciousness – sex as the dance of the universe.                            

Mama Says’ childhood admonitions serves here as a grounding and short interlude between what might have been sides one and two had the album been fully realized.

Side Two leaves girl/boy concerns behind on a meander thru a Wonderland of psychic landscapes - The Elements. A 16 beat bass-note (from Hawthorne, appended here) provides a nice, and again, minimalist, intro to the suite – earth, air, fire and water - Vegetables, Wind Chimes, Fall Breaks and Cool Water. Lyrical content, such as it is, takes second place here to what can only be described as musical equivalents to impressionist paintings – gurgling, gulping, whooping, wavering, babbling, ornamental vocal filigree – interspersed, inter-cut and overlaying the barest of instrumentations – bass notes, woodblocks, bells. Who knew that Fall Breaks and Back to Winter (Woody Woodpecker Symphony) is in fact the legendary lost Fire from Smile, reduced to the flickering flame of a candle? And can anyone tell me the aural inspiration for Cool, Cool Water the purist of psychedelic vocal soundscapes? Was there an experimental “classical” composer working with such voicings whose work served as a model for these?

We surface, finally, within landfall and the refuge of a Little Pad “…in Hawaii,” but press on to the finale with, first, the portentous Surf’s Up, which pulls together, elevates and deepens all that has preceded, followed by the mysterious, majestic Cabinessence, which recapitulates and thus encloses all that intervened within the Americana theme initiated by Heros and Villains at the outset of the song cycle - a trip to the frontiers of the American psyche, circa 1967.

Nothing tops Cabinessence, which is perhaps the supreme masterwork in the Beach Boys’ catalogue.

Except perhaps a snippet of the fading vocal tag, minus vocals, that miraculously reveals a delicate Arabesque dancing as thru a window.

From all the above it can be seen that Smiley Smile was Smile, or the logical culmination of the experiments and explorations of the Smile sessions reduced to the barest minimum. The record suffered, however, by the fact that it was poorly mastered, improperly sequenced and, despite the fact that all the pieces were readily at hand, inexplicably incomplete.

To sum up:

The remastered 2012 stereo version of Smiley Smile reveals a beauty and delicacy that was lost or obscured in the muddy 67 release.

Of the missing pieces –

Well, You’re Welcome was complete, released as a flip-side but withheld from the album.

Good Vibrations rehearsal was in the can.

Alternate Vegatables was in the can.?

Mama Says is a Smile leftover released in this configuration on Wild Honey. But I’m not sure when this version was recorded.

Cool Water Chant is from the Wild Honey sessions, but hadn’t it first appeared during the Smile sessions.

Surf’s Up, from the WH sessions, works beautifully as a solo vocal/piano piece and took how long to record – 3 minutes?

Cabinessence was largely complete as the session tapes demonstrate, and might have been completed in relatively short order.

As for the sequencing – the record is a mess as released and thus incomprehensible. The addition of the missing pieces almost compel the sequencing outlined above to reveal – Smile - as it might have been.

Just for some perspective relative to that era, I'll list a handful of now-legendary albums that are easily "must haves" in music collections, and which have been in the collections of musicians and fans who "get it" for decades.

Find some sources for the chart success or failure of these, and compare it to what's being discussed here.

Love - Forever Changes
Velvet Underground & Nico
The Kinks Are The Village Green Preservation Society
The Zombies - Odyssey & Oracle
The Byrds - Sweetheart Of The Rodeo
Van Dyke Parks - Song Cycle

My understanding is Brian and Mike wanted to release it as a single, and the other guys didn't, so they did it as "Brian and Mike". For the B-side, they picked a song that showcased their two-part harmony singing.

I wish that the Boys had put out a time-buying album in the wake of Pet Sounds, in the way Party!! bought Brian some time before Pet Sounds was completed. I agree with the idea that Smiley is Smile even though it's miles from Smile. Another back to basics album, with Mike's lyrical input, even, that took minimal time to string together but spent plenty of weeks on the charts, could have bought Brian a whole extra several months to bring Smile to fully realised maturation. That might even have eased the band's feeling that Brian was getting along without them …

Only a slightly less bizarre WTF action than recording Teeter Totter Love a few months prior.

I find it hard to understand how either Brian or Mike would have wanted this tune released as a single. IMO, it seems like an act of desperation that Mike talked Brian into, since Mike has in years since, unlike Brian, gone on and on and on about the importance of the boy girl theme, how that theme was HIS idea for Good Vibrations ... It seems in character for him to remind the public of that fact in general, hence the unusual GH credit seem like a logical extension of that reminder.

Or, as it is established that Brian was the album and song's Producer, he wanted to remind the fans that even though they had a new label and their last single "only" went to #12, the Brian/Mike #1 making duo was still on the team. IMO.

Wasn't there, more or less, an initial plan to have Smiley Smile be exactly that, the Party! of Smile, and then release a version of Smile in later '67 omitting H&V and GV and maybe other tracks? In all honesty I think I just saw that in this, or perhaps a different thread.

For those who haven't read the essay, here is a link to "Smiley Smile IS Smile"...

http://earcandy_mag.tripod.com/rrcase-2.htm (http://earcandy_mag.tripod.com/rrcase-2.htm)

There was a memo from someone at Capitol (?) mentioning a 10 track Smile album to be released post Smiley.  Cam and others here know more about this, I'm sure.

Opinions are a dime a dozen. In this case, Smiley Smile *is* Smile? Nope. Never bought into that. That's unrealistic. Just listen to the tracks.

There was indeed a memo from '67 reprinted in LLVS that was indeed about a release of other Smile tracks post-Smiley, and the memo was about the booklets considering some of the titles in the original Smile booklet had already been released on Smiley. Nothing, obviously, ever came of this plan.

Keep in mind there was also a plan in Fall 1967 to have a collection of live tracks from the previous two years included on the Wild Honey album, but that too, obviously, never happened. For as much weight and value as the various memos and notes and tracklists might carry, they are basically a snapshot of a moment in time, or a plan on the table that particular week or even day. Plans change often in the business of making and releasing albums.

You actually don't think Mike would have been a cheerleader for that type of credit?  That Mike *wouldn't* have wanted such a credit?  It was probably Brian's way of talking himself into the fact that the previous years' worth of work with VDP was a failure, not entirely dissimilar to Brian having Mike do that Heroes and Villains promo with the spoken word section about it being a nuclear bomb. The GH credit seems to be more about making a peacekeeping gesture, or trying to somehow smooth a rough patch over with Mike.  It is consistent with the type of talking Brian did where he called much of his experimental work "inappropriate".  A way to cover up his experimental "failure".

Mike may have been in favor of Brian's desire for GH but that is a far cry from what you are hypothesizing.

Several notable peacekeeping gestures were made in 1967.

Brian broke his promise to Mike by not recording the Pet Sounds follow up with him as the primary lyricist. I don't see how GH's credit, or the entire songwriting of the WH album, weren't - at least in part - both peacekeeping gestures, and Brian's attempt to make things up to Mike for Brian's pesky habit of breaking promises.

Or just Brian's desire to work with Mike on the music Brian wanted to make.

Is there a source for the way that song came together which you're referencing, Cam? Or is it just your take on it?

I'm not saying it's impossible that Brian had that desire rekindled… But don't you think Brian also felt he had to make things up to Mike for breaking promises? Do you in any way assume that Mike was quiet about reminding Brian of that fact?

 Seriously here… You don't think that Brian could have remotely for the slightest moment felt a sense of obligation? You think it's clear cut and black-and-white like that? Let's all admit there are shades of gray here. Maybe a sense of obligation wasn't the deciding factor, but let's not pretend that it's something that didn't exist in any way shape or form whatsoever.

Considering the reported previous history of Brian's keeping of promises to Mike, I have no reason to think it was a reason or a concern. Especially since Mike has said he was in fact very supportive of PS and we have actual recordings of Mike being supportive of SMiLE and also since Brian and Mike seem to have shared the same concerns with the particular SMiLE tracks Brian self-admittedly unilaterally dumped for his reasons. So to me these long touted conjectures are red herrings. IMO I think it much more likely that Brian realized that most of their greatest commercial success was in collabs with Mike and that was a strength to play to, especially with a new label. We can agree to disagree.

Cam, is there a source for your info on how Gettin Hungry came together, or is it just your own conjecture?

I don't believe I gave any info on how GH came together and I clearly id-ed my conjecture about it I think. Was there something in particular?

It sounds like you knew who pitched the song and how it came together with a comment like this. Wondering if you had seen or heard another source that detailed the song's origins.

Why does someone even make such a promise to somebody else in the band? Because that other person has made it clear that this is what their demands/requests are. For peacekeeping. For emotional reassurance. A confident, secure collaborator doesn't need to hear that kind of promise made to them. Just the same as 2012 - Mike currently mentions the broken promise ad naseum because he feels it's OWED to him because Brian PROMISED. Same as in 1967.

The 2012 broken promise wasn't a non-issue to Mike. It's VERY important for him to remind the world of how unacceptable it was for that promise to be broken. He's not repeatedly mentioning it for no reason. Mike has made it clear post 2012 how the TWGMTR promise was a KNOWN THING that was expected to be honored, right?

Even if Brian decided that he wanted to back to basics and write an album with Mike again (either in 1967 or 2012), doesn't mean that the knowledge of this expectation was somehow magically off Brian's radar.  

No, it's an extension of CD's speculating and later I expanded on it and called it my opinion.

Someone who is having their way?  

And it doesn't mean any of it was either.

Since Mike was supportive of PS the promise was null I suppose and even if it were still in effect (which I doubt), since they seem to agree over the SMiLE tracks dumped, the promise was null again or kept, depending. If there were anything to apologize for I would think it would be Brian's claim that the band nearly broke up over Brian decision to dump some of the SMiLE songs. Those weren't Mike songs so I'm having trouble figuring out what Brian "owed" Mike for.

Does that trouble figuring out what Brian "owed" Mike for extend to 2012? Hasn't Mike made it crystal clear that he was owed a 2012 Brian-Mike collaboration in a certain manner due to a promise of songwriting that was made?

And "the promise was null"... why do you think a promise was made in the first place? Someone doesn't just make a collaboration promise like that to someone for no reason at all. Even if you think the promise became invalid, it WAS made, and for a reason or two.

Cam, have you ever made a list of what were "band" decisions and what were "Brian" decisions? There has to be a logic behind how you manage to compartmentalize these issues into one or the other depending on your take on the situation at hand. Once I remember you were suggesting the Maharishi tour in '68 was in the "Brian" decision column.

TM - I think you are really on to something.  I always have believed that Smiley was the snapshot, of what should have been a double LP.  What I think is missing from your lineup is Our Prayer which I would have placed at the end, rather than the beginning and used Country Air, Can't Wait Too Long, Plymouth Rock and  Little Pad.  And, like you, I bought it when it was released.  Someone here suggested a Smiley sessions version - I would love that.  

But, I still think the artwork was all wrong for the release in the midst of all the psychedelic art work.  I think it was abstract but not psychedelic. And, I won't apologize for it's lack of curb appeal.  It does support the philosophy of "Don't judge a book by it's cover."  ;)

It's nice to speculate and hypothesize but in terms of reality, just listen to the Smile Sessions box set and then listen to Smiley Smile and similarities go out the window very fast. It's all in the sounds on those respective recordings and the way they were created. Smiley Smile was its own creation with its own specific mood and outlook. It came from a different place. It is not Smile. I thought that had been more than sufficiently demonstrated by 2016 and with all we've been able to hear.

GF - it is not so far from speculation.  Some of those tracks were released, or leaked out on various LPs,  pretty close in time to Smiley and a double LP in 1967, with a better cover than that green blob, might have given them all a run for their money. 

Who would have known the difference?  And while it does not have the comprehensiveness of Smile as released in 2011, the listeners would have been none the wiser.   ;)

And, GF, I am thinking from the listener's point of view and not the creator's. 

Generally, while Brian was the Producer (or whoever was Producer) he made those decisions is my opinion. Otherwise things were generally group decisions, probably often with deference to Brian (or Carl) I'm guessing. I think other Boys have spoken to things being a vote and democratic though I can't put a finger on any off the top of my head.

I remember there was a dispute as to whether Brian was devoted to the Maha' and how early but as far as I remember I've always assumed the Maha' tour was a group decision.  Can you point me to that claim in case I need to retract?

First part - How does all of this square with the "Produced by The Beach Boys" label that was first put onto Smiley Smile? Apart from what we know of the actual work on the songs in the studio, what could that credit have actually referred to? Perhaps what songs to include or not include on an upcoming album? What to release as a single? Starting with Smiley Smile it was also "Brother Records", which implies group as well.

Second part - I don't know where it would be. Somewhere in the archives. But in that case Nick Grillo in the Gaines book, whose word you said is solid on those kinds of details, suggested more to the story than it was a group decision, and if I recall some of what you said implied Brian had as much to do with that tour as others...and I don't think Grillo backs that up. Nor does what Brian's involvement was regarding tour planning and details at the time that tour was being proposed.

First part - I believe there is evidence and testimony that Brian was the Producer of those albums and so that is my opinion too.

Second part - When or if you ever find these supposed posts of mine please feel free to posts them.

"Mike managed to convince the rest of the group that it would be a good move..." = group decision with deference to Mike.

Cam - what say you about my questions above?

No.  No, Mike said he was promised, not owed, and apparently by Joe Thomas.

I did answer your speculation with speculation: "Someone who is having their way?"

Firstly, you didn't respond to my question of why a promise in 1966/67 was made in the first place. I still pose that question to you.

And yeah... the whole idea is that a promise of that sort (whether made by Thomas, Brian, or whoever) that is not kept is unacceptable to him, right?

Whether "promised" or "owed", it really makes no particular difference how we phrase it. If a promise is not kept, Mike was/is hurt/pissed, because he felt he did not get what he felt he was owed as a founding member who has cowritten many hits. C'mon, I'm sure even Mike himself would probably say he feels he deserves to write more songs that way.

Mike would not repeatedly bring up the 2012 promise if he wasn't trying to rally people around the idea of Mike being promised writing with Brian must be a promise kept or else (and the "or else" is Mike having ditched the reunion). He wants sympathy, and I'm sure he's getting some from some people. Mike didn't outright, point-blank say "I quit the reunion because I couldn't write with Brian in the manner which I was promised", but it's heavily implied that this broken promise was a major thorn in his side (I can understand his disappointment), and that there were resultant consequences, since it's almost always mentioned in tandem with a "why did the reunion end" type of conversation.

Thus it's obvious that if Mike doesn't/didn't get his way with writing with Brian - in a manner previously promised to him - that there would be consequences of some sort, and at the very least there would be emotional microagressions to occur as a result... even (especially) in 1967, when the band's future (and especially Mike's place in the band as main collaborator) was increasingly on uncertain ground. Just as in 2012, I'm sure there would have been *some* hell to pay for Brian if he decided not to write with Mike again.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Brian didn't want to give writing an album with Mike a shot again ANYWAY for reasons unrelated to the imminent threat of potential emotional microagressions, but please don't tell me you actually believe that if Brian, post SMiLE and Smiley Smile, decided to go back to writing with Tony Asher, or choose another collaborator for writing entire albums with, that Mike wouldn't have continually given Brian some sort of weird vibes about yet another broken promise. People aren't like that. As he's shown with his 2012 public gripes, Mike's proven that he's not like that.

Being promised something in the premise that you disagree but you don't actually disagree is a promise without purpose and a non-problem.  You frame it as something Brian promised when Mike recently claims Thomas promised it so another null situation where Mike wasn't promised or owed anything by Brian.  

All questions answered, we disagree apparently.

Everything is a broken promise when Mike doesn't get his way. He is a control freak with nasty behavior far beyond his talent or intelligence. He would be nowhere near the TM/Kokomo guru he makes himself out to be today without BW's action of creating the BBs in 1961.

I had to read that about three times, but it ends up being a completely rational and coherent statement, but I could never say it three times fast.

Geez, Cam. That's like seriously not not the most use of double negatives since Never Learn Not to Love.

Do you truly think that each and every time that Brian has worked with a collaborator other than Mike, that Mike has been 100% A-OK, hunky dory with it? That he isn't human and prone to feeling jealous *sometimes*? Even once?

The problem is that Brian, apparently, seems to have inadvertently screwed with Mike's brain (I say this in all sincerity) over the years, causing Mike to legitimately think (in his heart) that Brian turning Mike down ALWAYS has something to do with someone else imposing their will on Brian, and NEVER, NOT ONCE as a result of Brian's own instincts and preference.   If Mike just keeps on believing that Mike himself is never the reason why Brian would not choose to work with Mike, then Mike holds things together better and retains a better opinion of himself.

Brian has obviously shown himself to be a guy who will sometimes go along with what other people say, and will sometimes agree to things in an attempt for there to not be conflict. Wouldn't you say that's true, at least sometimes? I don't know why it's impossible to conceive that sometimes Brian did things like that to appease Mike, when it came to writing material together. Do you not think this is possible to have occurred, even one single time in 50+ years? Brian is sometimes too nice for his own good - pretty much everyone knows that's the case.

Thanks. (overly elaborate bow involving a tri-corner hat with plume)

CD, I respectfully disagree with your premises and that is my answer so please refrain from continuing to claim I avoid and/or don't answer your questions.

Hmmm...musical genius and 5-part harmony-thinking wizard that he is, I don't think Brian could or would have "created" The Beach Boys without Dennis and Mike's initial vision of doing a surfing song. And yes, Mike was part of that suggestion, having just returned from the beach with Dennis (according to Carl in 1974). Undoubtedly Brian would have made his mark in music somehow, but it likely wouldn't be the rock 'n' roll band we've come to (mostly) love without the ideas and input of all the others.

c-man - it was a "package deal."  

And, there is another context of "promise" which means "agreement" in another context.  Where there is an "understanding" or a "meeting of the minds."  

So, it may not be the pejorative connotation that "momma promised me a lollypop" and "she did not give it to me after I made my bed."  

Or, "Mike doesn't get his way." That is an incorrect way of regarding what may have actually happened in an adult corporate context.  We don't know unless we were there.

One must inquire into what the circumstances and relative positions of all the parties were at that time.     ;)

Is it in here?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18591.25.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18591.25.html)

I'm curious, up to 1968 how many songs released by the Beach Boys had music written and records arranged/produced by someone in the band other than Brian Wilson? It's fine to speculate and postulate and hypothesize, but when you look at the discography and notice who else in the band was capable of writing and producing when it really counted for the band to have strong, innovative musical material to release...no one else in the band had the chops to do it. That's fact. They would develop it, but Carl didn't come into his own as a writer until the 70's, and Dennis was just coming into his own as the Capitol contract expired at the end of the 60's. Was anyone else from 1962-1968 writing and producing hit material for this band?

It is like any sports team as well, you could look at the starting lineup of a team that won the World Series and say everyone on the roster was vital to that success, but at the same time there are some who without their contributions the team would not have had a leader or that person who got things done consistently if no one else could step into that role.

Honestly I don't remember. All I recall is there was the issue of Mike Love advocating for that tour, and the argument made that it was a group decision even though Grillo reported they tried to talk Mike out of it to no avail. Just as Lennon and McCartney tried to talk the Maharishi out of it to no avail, and it ended up being a disaster for all involved.

after listening to the Sunrays I have a feeling that Murry was involved with the production of "Break Away"  at least some of it..

We have one song, so far, logged as a "maybe".  :)

No, we don't. "Break Away" was released in 1969.  :)

Actually Nick said the rest of the group were convinced the tour was a good move, so it was a group decision. Apparently the tour's promoters thought it was a good move too, until they took it in the neck I presume.  I suppose "success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan".

My memory is hit and miss too but I have no memory of what you are claiming. If you ever do remember or find proof of your claim about my opinion please post it.

There are covers and SUSA that weren't written by Brian. There are the songs produced by Nik Venet or Murry according to Brian. There aren't going to be many of either I presume.

Not many. Not many at all. Precious few is more like it. And that's the point. No one else in this group could do what Brian did in those first 7-8 years, when it counted to have hit records and when they needed to maintain that level of quality and popularity. Repeat - No One Else in that band had the same skill set that Brian brought to the table. Writing music, arranging music, or producing records. No one.

Who was the backup catcher on the '27 Yankees? You could argue whoever that man was could have been just as vital to that team's success as Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, and the rest of Murderers' Row, but doing so would miss the point by 100 times the distance of one of Babe Ruth's monster home runs that year. Whichever one of his 60 was the longest.

Do you mean up to 1968 or through 1968?  Because in 1968 they recorded I Can Hear Music, the Nearest Faraway Place, Never Learn Not to Love and Bluebirds Over the Mountain, none of which were arranged or produced by Brian.

Those exact songs were my cutoff point.

BR - Beyond that, of those four, two are covers, one was primarily a Charles Manson original, and the other was an instrumental by a band member who was at best was a part time member from 1965 up to the 80's.

Who else was writing for the band, who else was capable of writing original music for the band among the other band members, even into 1968? My point again.

Why cut it off at 1968, they have had a long career.  Brian will still dominate but why the limited scope?  Or limit it to only composing of music or producing, there was more to making their career?

What years would prove to make or break the band? What years were featured on Endless Summer which some have been saying brought the band back into mainstream popularity? What years did the band need hit record after hit record to first establish themselves in the business, then compete with the Beatles and the British Invasion, then continue to be at the top of the charts? Whether some would admit it or say it or not, the years up to 1968 set the band up for the rest of music history. That was the make it or break it years, and they managed to stay on top.

Again, there was one guy in this band who could write the music, arrange the music, and produce the records. This was when it counted. And it's not a knock on the other guys at all to say none of them up to 1968 had the skills or the chops to do what Brian did for them regarding the music which had their name on the label.

That's fact, solid fact.

That's such a ridiculous statement, I have to challenge it disprove it. From early 1965 to early 1972, Bruce was anything but "at best part time": he was on all the tours (bar Hawaii 1967) and all the albums. He also took it upon himself to fly off to London with a few Pet Sounds acetates. He was a fully functioning Beach Boy. Fact. If that's "part time", then what was Brian during those years ? Casual labour ? Seriously, Craig... ;D

As for 1972-1979, he wasn't even a part-time member, of course.  :lol

All true imo and I don't think any Beach Boys fan will deny the absolute importance of Brian Wilson's massive talents. On the other hand, Brian wrote and produced for many other groups during the same time and almost none of it caught on at all so it is a fact that there must be much more to the group's success than just Brian's gigantic talents.

I garbled my comment a bit, what I was focusing on was writing/producing/arranging up to 1968 in the discussion, but seeing the bigger picture too and considering he wasn't a member at all for years at a time as noted in the 70's - I made the picture too big, yes. 1965-68, yes he was of course playing shows and some sessions (kind of like Glen Campbell did) but wouldn't you also say Bruce began taking on more of a prominent and permanent role within the band every year he was a member? By 1968, yeah I'd say he's "all in", no hesitation. Up to that point? Maybe not as much, looking in from the outside. He was still doing other sessions and projects, and how long was Bruce under contract to Columbia?

<<The Byrds - Sweetheart Of The Rodeo>>

Side note... the killer middle period Byrds album, for me, was the Gary Usher-Produced (BB content)... Notorious Byrd Brothers... which managed to combine lush vocals and arrangements with both psychedelic and country material.  Cuts Sweetheart to pieces, in my view.  The Beach Boys' Sunflower classic "All I Wanna Do" would have fit perfectly on Notorious Byrd Brothers... as "Draft Morning" would have fit on Sunflower.

Not quite, but actually my favorite set-up to listen to it is late at night with just some candles lighting the room and while it is snowing outside! :) No kidding!!

My favorite memory of listening to Smiley is circa 1972 while in the Army. A buddy of mine had a stash of Orange Sunshine and we'd trip occasionally. I'd play Smiley while we all smoked weed to soften the landing, and can still clearly see the ear-to-ear smiles on their faces. Oh yeah, and the album art - which (along with CATP) is the best ever to enclose a BB album - faithfully captures the vivid awareness we experienced of the secret life of plants.

I don't know if it's true, but there was a story told of a clinic somewhere that played it to help people come down from bad trips.

Bad trips or good, I can personally attest to its magical powers.

Which remain undiminished to this day. I don't trip anymore (altho I would, given the right circumstances), but just last week enjoyed my extended version of Smiley while under the influence of some tastey Brownies.

Stoner

I think it makes sense to listen to Smiley in the same altered state the Beach Boys were when recording it!  (except Al of course)