The Smiley Smile Message Board

After this post I am signing out of Smiley Smile and I’m never logging back in again. Nor will I read the responses to this post (if any responses are made). This is a long winded soapbox piece, so the TL;DR: I thank those of you who have tried hard to make this forum a great place for fans, and shame on you to those who make this place the pile of garbage that it became - and you know exactly who you are.

Firstly, I want to say that this board was a haven for me. I know countless other posters who felt the same way. A lot of us came here as new fans, wide eyed, mesmerized at the information, at the upbeat (sometimes chaotic) atmosphere. So many knowledgable people, so many insiders. So many good people.

Most of us share a common love for this music. We feel a spiritual connection when we listen to songs like ‘Don’t Worry Baby’ or ‘I Just Wasn’t Made For These Times’. Each of us has that eureka moment when Pet Sounds clicked for us. We all became obsessed with certain facets of the Beach Boys output (whether Pet Sounds, Smile, Friends, Pacific Ocean Blue, etc) and we share something that few people tap into: A random person will hear a song like 'In My Room' and they’ll walk away saying “cool song”. Most of us on Smileysmile hear that song and get lost in the harmonies, we follow the melodies through the chords, and listen to the lyrics as they tug at our emotions. THAT is what we all have in common. And we all gravitated towards smileysmile.net because it was not only a great place for information but camaraderie.

The spats on this board, in the scheme of things, mean nothing? We all have real lives, with real problems. But ya know what? This place was a haven for many of us. Some of us come home from work and want to share this ONE beautiful, spiritual thing in our lives with other people who GET IT. Some of us have been shacked up in hospital rooms, and we not only have the music to distract us, but we have great friends here that we share this one great thing in common with. These spats, all this negativity, mean everything to my fandom….because they are breaking apart a place that helped make my fandom.

A few things I want to mention before I leave:

Andrew G Doe. Not long ago I received information from you that was factually incorrect. Next time you try to pawn something off as fact, make sure that information is correct prior to disclosing it with others (as any, even amateur, historian would do)…especially when that information has the potential to discredit something and perhaps subsequently someone. I wonder how many board members have been contacted with similar “information”? By the way, I recommend you listen to the Love and Mercy commentary sometime when the blu-ray hits the shelves over there. When I first arrived here, I really looked up to you. As time went on it became quite obvious what exactly you do on this board (and I’m not speaking of a “conspiracy” so you don’t have to stoop to wasting board bandwidth making another mock thread). If there is one reason I’m ecstatic about leaving this place it’s so I don’t have to watch you flaunt your charade every time I log in.


Micha. It is indeed a shame that you felt you needed to extricate yourself from this board during the NPP release time. On the flip side of that: My intelligence was questioned because I liked the album, many “new” posters did leave one sentence “reviews” about how lousy the album was. A while ago, the album was called a “steaming pile of dogshit" by Mike’s Beard. One person subtly recommended that Joe Thomas should throw himself from a high-rise building. Recently, a music reviewer came on this board and when his review was questioned he refused to even acknowledge the falsehoods in his article regarding the making of NPP and instead berated people’s taste for liking the album. So a lot of us were and still are on edge about an album that is (and shouldn’t be) very polarizing. A lot of love and care went into NPP (according to people who actually know), and when it is childishly mocked, or the people who like it are mocked, it can bring out some knee-jerk reactions. It is a shame that a lot of us felt hurt on both sides of the spectrum.

To those who continually berate Brian and his music. You are the reason this place is falling apart. When fans have to log on and read that Brian has no chance of making a hit record again, that he doesn’t have much control over the music he makes, that it’s “sad” that he strives to make a hit record these days, that he’s controlled by “handlers”, that having young top-40 talent on his new record was him selling out. All of those examples and more can be found in threads on this board. No wonder people are so defensive about Brian! They’ve had to trawl through your inane garbage every time a new album is released. Posts like that are breeding grounds for the arguments that consume this place. You can’t just be happy for Brian and his fans: you have to pick apart the management, or pick apart the production, or pick apart the songwriting, or pick apart someone’s taste in music…and you do it in the most unscrupulous ways possible. Sheriff John Stone recently insinuated that Brian is coached and told what to say in interviews, basically called Brian Wilson a puppet. The Popmatters “reviewer” Casey Hardmeyer compared Brian Wilson making an album to a wheelchair bound grandfather who is wheeled out at Thanksgiving dinner and forced to make a speech. Then he had the gall to come on this board and question why Brian Wilson fans would like a Brian Wilson album. Gee I wonder. Some of you never hesitate to mention that Brian is controlled by “handlers”, yet when pointedly asked (on MANY occasions) who these handlers are and what they do you scurry away and never respond…Matt Etherton…

Brian releases a seven second song clip recorded from a cell phone and you nitwits jump on it to hell about autotune….threads are made, pages upon pages of speculation go on. Hell, even Mike Love himself jumped on the auto-tune bandwagon against Brian (which is hilariously ironic considering the seemingly colossal amount of pitch correction used in Mike’s latest Christmas single). Posters, who I respected at one point, bullied and harassed an enthusiastic member…Constantly calling her a “cheerleader” and berating her positive Brian Wilson posts. For a cadre that is constantly whining about maturity you guys sure do lack a lot of it.

As a whole you guys stop at nothing to tear Brian and his fans down.

David Beard. Where do I even begin? It’s sad as hell when members of this forum are called “assholes” by you because they pointed out that calling Brian Wilson “brain-damaged” in a published article is a tactless thing to do. But of course the movie Love and Mercy showed us that Brian is brain-damaged, right? Jeesh. You claim that it’s unfortunate that Brian isn’t the same person today as he was in the 60s. You’ve had to take-down/edit several of your pieces. You deemed it necessary to stoop to name-calling because a few people were offended by your statement regarding Brian Wilson’s current mental health state. The backlash of that statement compelled you to apologize to both Brian and Melinda Wilson. Your description of his concerts is completely baffling (“He sits behind the piano, and on occasion, when he’s finds the inspiration, he will join in and sing along with his band”). You claim it’s “the truth” that we anticipate new music from Brian only because of the music he made in the 60s. It’s sad to think that some new fan probably read those articles and trusted that information. Yet another reason I look forward to leaving this place is not having to feel my blood pressure rise to astronomical levels when I see a link posted to one of your “articles”.

Brian’s music, even what he has just recorded and released, is supposed to put smiles on faces. If it doesn’t, fine. But that “steaming pile of dogshit" was made by a man who GENUINELY wanted to make people happy. That guy who “occasionally” sings when he finds the “inspiration” actually sings on nearly every song his band performs in concert. That supposedly “brain-damaged” man strives to make a perfect hit record when he’s in the studio. If you can’t hear that, fine. But f*** off with your petulant direct and/or passive aggressive negativity. And I'm not saying we can't be critical of the art (there are things I wasn’t happy about with NPP and said so), but don't be an asshole doing it...especially when the person writing and recording the music is a man who (according to those who actually know) has an absolute heart of gold and merely wants to share some joy with the world. But of course being civil about his solo career would negate the possibility of perpetuating the Brian-Wilson-centric negativity that some of you want permeating this board.

That’s about 15 percent of what I want to address in regards to the negativity around here. For the sake of many reasons I’m keeping my mouth shut about the other 85 percent. And that 85 percent is what transformed this forum into a place whereupon visiting I feel the need to wash my hands Howard Hughes style.

With that behind me, there are many people here I want to thank before I log off:

Wirestone. Your knowledge and truthful posts have helped many, many fans understand the actual workings of Brian's solo career. I remember reading a post of yours that completely changed my perception of Brian's solo output. When I first arrived here, the general consensus was that Brian didn’t make his own music, that he was more of a vegetable when it came to the studio (the term “paint-by-Brian” was used very frequently)…and I know for a fact that many other posters were swayed by this talk. It was around the time of BWRG that you described the recording process and Brian's involvement on the record - from then on I realized (quite happily) that much of the negative sh*t that is said here about Brian is false. You truly made me a much happier fan that day, and I owe you so much for your insightful posts….I hope you never lose that drive for the truth.

Ray Lawlor. For the many months leading up to NPP, I looked forward to your posts on the album. You kept us informed, and put a lot of the bullshit to rest. There was A LOT of disinformation, a lot of ridiculous speculation regarding NPP, and it was like a breath of fresh air to have an insider talk about the making of this record. I know this board will benefit from your insightful and informative posts for years to come.

Luther. You have always been a real fair guy, and you’ve never hesitated to tell it how it is, and you’re most always correct. I know I’ve probably gotten on your nerves numerous times (or at least added to the chaos that consumes this board), but I never meant any ill will. I hope you keep on bringing informative posts and opinions to this board. I know your posts will help this place immensely in the following months and years.

Billy C. Through the thick and thin of whatever life throws at you, you’ve always been here to help keep the peace. Your light-hearted nature has always made this board a jovial place to visit, and when dirty work needs to be done you don’t mind doing it. This board is privileged to have you as a moderator. I know we all owe you a huge debt of gratitude for all the years you’ve been with us.

Guitarfool2002. When I first came here I was perplexed and awed by your knowledge of the workings of the studios where Brian recorded some of his best music. I, to this day, brag to people about those threads and what a revelation they are. Throughout the years you’ve continued to write descriptive posts that shed light on the facts. This board is blessed to have you as a member and as a moderator…and any level-headed poster here would agree.

Stephen Desper. You have no idea what a gift your presence on this board is. The videos you put together, the remastered tracks you upload, your willingness to elaborate on a topic. We have learned so much from you and I know ALL of us here are extremely grateful for your contributions. You are a big part of what makes this place worth going to. No words of mine can express my deep appreciation for all that you’ve done here, and we all owe you a huge thanks.

Bgas. I am going to miss your posts so very much man. You don’t suffer fools and your posts back that up…I think I’ve even been in your crosshairs a couple times and deserved every bit of it haha. I’ll always be envious of your Beach Boys collection. No matter what happens on this board I know it’ll stay mostly on an even keel because of your presence. I really hope to see you on other boards in the future.

Debbie KL. You bring so much joy to the board, so much passion for the music. Your insights and stories about Brian have helped bring a ray of light to this place in the recent year. I look forward to seeing you around on other boards. Thank you so much for everything!

FatherOfTheMan, Zach Wolfe, Kayla Williams, Swedish Frog, Empire of Love, Woodstock, Seltaeb1012002, Egohanger, Billy, Hypnotic Eye (Freddie), etc etc, all you Smileysmiler’s who make music, keep on sharing the joy. I’m subscribed to some of you on Youtube/Soundcloud, I’ll try and keep up with you guys elsewhere. You all have so much talent and I’m envious of so many of you. I’ve collaborated with some of you and it was an absolute joy and honor to do so. I’ll keep in touch with you guys and am more than happy to keep collaborating. I hope all of you stay positive about recording/performing.

Mujan, JMZ, Pancake Records, Soniclovenoize, I know I’m leaving many people out, apologies! Keep up the great Smile mixes. You guys have given us countless hours of enjoyment with your ideas and interpretations of the Smile tracks. I hope you guys keep up the great work. Mujan, I know we never totally got along 100 percent of the time, but if I ever have any questions about Smile, you’ll be the first person I talk to. I hope to see you around elsewhere.

And finally a HUGE thank you to most all of you for helping make this place a nice place to visit most of the time. We’ve had a lot of good laughs and a lot of great times. I’ll never forget Ghost/Nobody/SoColdIGoBurr, my sides ached from laughing at some of his posts. I’ve seen many of you rally around and help people who weren’t having the best of times in real life. This place has the potential to bring out the best and worst in people, and fortunately most of you brought your best to this place.

In closing:

I’m sure this forum will evolve, hopefully for the better. But thanks to the toxic atmosphere that wafts from certain posters, I think there will always be a shadow that looms over this place. It’s for that very reason I’ve decided to leave this place for good.

I’m by no means innocent in how I’ve behaved/posted on this board. I’m not proud of a few posts, and I want to apologize to Rockno1fan and Retrokid for not welcoming your enthusiasm to the board a couple years ago…it’s something I’m not proud of and something I’m very sorry for. I hope you guys never lost your passion for this band, and I hope to see you around on other boards.

I’ll probably see many of you on other forums. And I hope to converse with many of you again. I appreciate all the kind words many of you said about my fanmix ‘Love’ album. It truly means a lot to me. I hope so much that this place can evolve into a welcome haven again for newcomers and older members alike. I hope that some wide-eyed fan, just like me years ago, will come to a place void of bullshit, void of deeply rooted negativity that emanates directly and indirectly from certain people.

Sadly, at some point in the future, Brian Wilson will depart from this earth. But his music will remain. Memories we have of him will stay with us. Videos of him directing sessions, lively interviews where he opens up about his life…that is what people will remember and smile about. All the negativity, all the petulant comments, though solidified on the web, will be forgotten. And many of you will regret that you were so nefariously pessimistic about Brian and his music while he was still with us. Deep down, no matter what side you’re on (and you’re not kidding anyone, you’re on a side), remember what it was that drew you into this music. Remember that moment that captured you and made you fall in love with harmony. For the sake of the board, remember that feeling every time you log in and post.

Goodbye, Smiley Smile.

Hey, hold up, I'll go with you.
I'm a longtime devotee of this site, although I don't post very often. But there has definitely been a shift in tone over the past year or so, and the negativity, nitpicking and nay-saying have reached epidemic proportions. Congrats to the trolls, the haters and the haphazard moderators...you can have the sandbox all to yourselves.

+1

This is very sad.

I'll be the first dissenting voice.

Don't leave, guys. At least not for good. Seriously.

We've had more than our fair share of ups and downs and flame wars on here but this is also a place where we have all managed to coexist (not without bumps, of course) for nearly a decade (December 24 is the ten year anniversary). We have a fine community on here. True, sometimes people need breaks for extended periods of time and that's cool. Life happens. Sometimes we all need to count to ten and walk away for a bit. People are gonna say stupid things and disrupt sh*t. I do agree that the board can and should be better and evolve into a more nurturing environment for both the new fans and the old farts. It's not going to happen overnight but it CAN happen.

I just figured I'd throw that out there. Take a break for a while if you feel like you have to, but don't leave for good. We're better than this and we should strive to be better.

This makes me sad as well... definitely sorry to see you leave. The board will be notably worse off.

To quote Dylan after THAT speech....

"At least he didn't mention me."

 :lol

Bad form to flounce off with a melodramatic announcement and a settling of scores. Have a little dignity.

If one no longer wishes to read or post on a particular board for whatever reason, that's fine. Just cease posting, without making a big deal out of it. Maybe someone will notice your absence, maybe not.

Wise words. I'll only add if smb. made up their mind completely to leave the board, PM your friends on  the board (rab2591 has quite a few), that's it. Why tell it the whole world (figure of speech)?

And why here? It's got nothing to do with the BBs. I hope Billy & other mods - if you read this - will kindly move this "topic" to the Sandbox.

I was in fact shocked when I read my name after the rant against Andrew, but it seems rab respects that I don't like NPP just as I respect him loving it. This was a very interesting post for me to read, because my perception is the opposite: You can't criticize Brian here about anything without getting shouted at and being accused of being pro-Mike. I do remember Debbie being insulted with a cheerleader photo for being enthusiastic about NPP, and I was happy to find the poster being banned for that. I don't see ANY reason to make fun of somebody who just has a different taste. Especially when it's insulting.



I find this post offensive. I understand how rab feels and find rab's post quite dignified. It is insulting posts like this one that made him leave. Actually, I feel similar as rab does, even though for reasons from a different perspective.

Gosh, it's very easy to get you insulted, Micha. There was nothing offensive in what clack said. You must just chill out a little, take a break or 2 from time to time as RBB suggested, if it's too intense here. Come on, let's not overreact.

Because there is something very wrong with this place now and it needs to be said.


It would be overreacting to counter-insult or ban clack for his post. Even if YOU don't think clack's post was offensive, I still think so.

I rmbr. some time back people were whining about this place keeping quiet: no news, nothing. Now, people whine that it's noisy. Bottom line: nothing is wrong with the board. If you think that way - think that way, it needn't to be said; those who know what rab meant & agree with him - they know it already. It's like he tried to convince others of his opinion. very unsuccessfully. So everyone now must announce loudly that they're going to leave the board? Is it what you're saying?

You really like to stir up things, don't you? Same old same old. Same "ban" implications when nobody EVER said ANYthing about bans.

While I agree with the original poster's basic issue (this board being an unpleasant place these days), I find this thread ironic because the post illustrates the basic problems of this forum not in the details expressed, but because the poster himself is doing all of the things that make it so dismal ... the board has become very personal/political.

There are no specific posters that are to blame, it's the environment itself. If you removed all of the posters that were criticized above, we most certainly would still have the same problems we do now.

To play into that angle for a minute ... I try not to post unless I feel I have something of value to add. And lately I really haven't bothered even when I do (still have a couple photos of Glen Campbell playing drums with the group in '65 I haven't found a spot to bring up yet! ... and some other things I've already forgotten) ...

Basically, the "signal-to-noise ratio" is crummy in most threads, and in the board overall. The real solution to the problem is getting back to talking about The Beach Boys, instead of about ourselves, each other, and our imaginary affiliations with either the "Mike" or "Brian" party.

Great post, DonnyL. I esp. agree with the last bit. In a different way, I said sth. similar about not talking about ourselves in a recent locked thread. We should keep focus on the BBs & anything germaine to them. The only "personal" that should count is various "meeting the BBs" stories/meet & greets/show attendance.

I just wanted to say what I would regard as overreacting. Rab's post was to me a very insightful read and necessary thing to say.



Tell the board trolls that.

Not really about trolls man ... It's all the folks knee-jerking to the personal and political instead of having respectful interactions. Including some of the posters praised above. Trolls are easily identified and ignored.

 >:D

Agree. It isn't only about SB & OSD.  It goes both ways. People's reaction to their posts is just as annoying if not more. They keep going on & on, some even try to be nice to them & even change their minds when it's obvious they won't change it. If 2 sides would just stop conversing with one another, it would at least eradicate some of the stuff they complained about the board suffering from.

Better call the wahhhambulance, someone is in need of urgent attention.

If you want to leave, leave. If you want to stay, stay. Either way, nobody needed the whopping post where you settle old grudges.

Agree. I'm probably as guilty as any of allowing myself to feel goaded into responding. I find it hard to turn a blind eye and that, along with reactions of others of a similar disposition, doesn't help the mood here. I apologise to those who're tired of it and will try to let it pass from here on.

It's totally political. This is the problem. This why a simple discussion of NPP devolves into us vs. them. This is why a (in my opinion) ceremonial award such as the Ella turns into us vs. them. This is why some (delightfully unexpected) set lists for Mike and Bruce in London devolve into us vs. them. Pointing out the merda-stirers is not a hero vs. villain proposition. It's us vs. them. And that's a damn shame. And don't confuse that with having a personal bias. That's to be expected (and it's been in the DNA of the Beach Boys fan for many, many years). I'm talking about arrogance. From newbies all the way to the published author. There's a difference.

Again, calling out 2, 3, or a half dozen objectionable posters is merely window dressing. The problem is when one reacts, the other will respond. Sounds a lot like a political discussion doesn't it? Feels good to vent - sure, but unless your skin is thick, feelings get hurt.

+1

Yeah. I think the only threads Ive participated in that havent devolved into Mike v Brian are album/book reviews, the SMiLE Sessions board and the latest SMiLE Mix thread here. Most SMiLE threads inevitably get derailed with the whole "Mike killed it!" "Mikes totally blameless" debate tho. And even that SMiLE Mix thread had some drama, with people mistaking passionate debate for "bullying" and getting in a funk over it. Im not trying to act like Im above the whole thing, because Im not. I tried staying out of it when I first came here, but sometimes what "the other side" says is so outrageously untrue you cant help but feel the need to respond. Its exhausting tho, and my response has been to not post as much. If I do, its just on posts Im really, REALLY interested in (mostly SMiLE) and thats it.

Im actually really flattered for the name-drop, rab. Didnt expect that, and it means a lot to me. For what its worth, if you read this, I dont think less of you for doing a "farewell" post. I did the same when I felt backed into a corner and wanted to call attention to what I felt was (actual) bullying that had been going on and hampered my experience. Its fair to want to do the same. I hope you come back, and sorry you felt the need to leave at all

It's all Mike Love's fault

Post deleted!  ;)

 

It sucks that he's gone now.  :'( He had the great project he was working on and now he's gone! I loved his Beach Boys Love idea mix. I was excited when he said he was going to work on it more and add to it. I tried to add more to it a month ago on my own to see if it works. I do apologize in advance as I didn't like the Hello Goodbye mix I removed it from my version but, everything else was spot on! I might post it sometime or if anyone else would love to carry on his legacy and contribute to it. I copied the stream to get his source files to listen to it on my computer and in my car.

Yeah. It's this.
Wow. Some of you are unbelievable. Do you know how aggressive and rude you come off?  
The problem is not preferences or dislikes for Mike or Brian. It's the incredibly rude way some people on this board behave.
Some people rudely throw completely noncontributional comments that they know are off-topic flames.
Some people from the moment they enter a thread or from their first response to something they don't like are personally insulting and aggressive, and there are a few examples of this above on this thread. Either those people have zero self-awareness or they like to fight.
Throwing out an insult just as a smackback to something you don't like is every bit as unconstructive and troll-like as throwing in an irrelevant jab.
 Frankly there are some people on this board who come across as complete jerks.

If there's a conversation going on and you have nothing pertinent to say, don't say anything.  
If you disagree with someone or don't like their post but can't figure out how to express your disagreement without name-calling, don't say anything.
If you think someone's post is irrelevant, ignore it. It's not like they're sitting next to you in the back seat.

Wasn't it Elton John?

EDIT 8:42 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZSAQX2uuUY

The problem with flouncing off in such a dramatic manner is that when you stage your return, you can look, well, pretty silly. Personal experience speaking here.  ;D

Regardless of the way in which a poster makes their exit, and despite promises never to return, we're still always happy when an apostate returns to the fold. Now drink your Kool-Aid.  :ohyeah

Yes Reverend Jim...

Ahhh - we can have a "welcome back party!" :lol

No harm - no foul.  I can understand why he threw in the towel. 

All good.

Rab's farewell has to be the most dignified exit I could imagine for this Board.  He actually expressed himself respectfully and with care for others here when most of us (me included), just get disgusted with the absurdity of so much of what is posted and leave (for a time or forever).  Wading through the bile and nasty comments of a bunch of people on a fan Board who are hostile to their acknowledged musical genius, his work and gifted band members struck me as a ridiculous process, but there was some good information and there were good people, so I bothered.  But the numbers of those worth reading are dwindling.

Those posting that Rab will be back may be mistaken unless the tone of this place changes.  Ugliness and hostility become boring, too.  Those accusing some of us of "boo-hooing" are missing the point.  We're primarily disgusted and exhausted by sad creatures who get some sort of thrill out of being hatefully provocative - then blaming the mods for a cesspool of content that they create.  The mods are here to enforce the rules of the place and as members can provide a small part of the content.  They have a thankless job.  If you want better content, create it.  If you want this to be a hostile free-for-all, knock yourselves out.  There are better places to go.

In the mean time, I'm going to another Board or two to see if I can find Rab and people like him there.  I want to hear his completed BBs-Love mash-up - so far it was amazing.  I'm feeling pretty certain it won't be that hard to find him and others I've also enjoyed here.  

Oops...My bad.

Was not in a situation to check at the time of posting.

Thanks SJB.

2Emily: you quoted the wrong poster. If you go read his posts (& other posters you may like to read) - DonnyL was anything but aggressive & rude. There are people who know stuff about music & using just ears can ID a keyboard type or seeing just a little shot can tell what's guitar model. DonnyL is one of them. To say "Either those people have zero self-awareness or they like to fight" is arrogant. I esp. don't like the line "zero self-awareness". You are doing here exact same thing for what you question the posters. You could've disagreed without calling people "complete j-e-r-ks". If it's not an insult I don't know what is. Whereas, nobody here called names. Understand that people who whine about the board being so & so are annoying & killing the joy just as much as the real trolls. I don't know if you saw it but originally rab2591 started this thread in the main board. Now what's "irrelevant jab"? It's just a one poster's decision to leave - how is it related to the BBs? I'm glad the mods moved it in the Sandbox. Thanks to them.

-The first line of my post indicates that I'm agreeing with DonnyL. Sorry you missed that.
-I didn't call anyone a jerk, but I did say they come across as jerks, which is not the same. I actually think that some of the people who come across as jerks in these squabbles seem very nice, or funny, or helpful, or thoughtful, or informative, or insightful, etc. at other times, so I should not have said "complete jerks."
-That my post was a bit too aggressive, I accept. I will try better to keep cool. I know it's important. And I felt a little sorry for this post earlier. I lost my temper.
-But, as this thread is about the tone of the board, I don't feel it was out of line for me to talk about the tone of the board, which I find often to be rude, overly blunt and overly aggressive.
 

They both said variations on it I think.

Y'know, after this thread, I did some digging into rab's history to see if some big event Id missed had come up to make him leave. I came across the thread Mike's Band, apparently renamed from Mikes Whore Band or Mikes Band of Whores. I did something Im not proud of and wasted time reading thru the entire thing. I think, as ugly as that thread was, that it was totally necessary. I think it got a lot of repressed anger and frustration of most of those involved out into the open for better or worse. I was sad to see it ended so abruptly with so much undone about the very understandable demands of many of the participants. Im not familiar enough with OSD and SB to add my voice to those calling for their banning, but when you have a dozen or so members calling for the banning of one, two specific people then that to me seems significant. That's enough to warrant at least a reaction from the mods, if not banning then acknowledging the frustration and doing SOMETHING about it. I realize the thread is like 10 days old now, maybe something has been done that Im unaware of, w/e. But it was frustrating for me the misdirection and throwing the burden on us users to do something about trolling when IMO (and apparently that of many others) that job should land squarely on the mods. Im not trying to stir sh*t up again, or throw blame around on any particular mod, but the fact is we lost a valuable poster here now, largely due to those issues that were never resolved (as far as I can see) from back then. So...what's it gonna take? When is enough enough? I thought I was the only one who refrained from posting here on a regular basis because of the annoying cliques and bullshit. But going on that thread, it appears that my story is actually a fairly common one. I wont play backseat driver and say OSD should be banned, or this or that action should have been taken about him or anyone else personally, but I WILL say that that thread never should've been locked, nor this one moved to the sandbox. Yes, that original thread was TOXIC all around, but it was necessary to address all the bullshit thats been going on. I think the posters were pretty united in what they wanted--removal of certain troublemaking people and more active moderation--and they were silenced. It came to light that there are people afraid of speaking their minds for fear of being banned, which should never be the case. I think rab's thread, while perhaps melodramatic, was another opportunity for some of the issues with this board to be recognized and addressed and now that its been dumped on this less viewed side forum that wont happen.

I very well may be out of the loop. Maybe everyone's issues have been placated in the interrim, maybe theres another thread Im missing where such grievances are being aired again and discussed with the mods, but in any case I hope SOMETHING to that effect is happening. Its pretty undeniable this forum has suffered lately--Ive seen it myself firsthand as a newbie and can only imagine how those longtime posters feel. When I raised some of my grievances before about feeling bullied I was told "this is a big boys place, if you cant handle it leave" (obviously Im paraphrasing) but it seems like there's something to be said for more active moderation, or again, an Ignore button. I see the issue has its own thread here, and others shared my desire for one in that Mikes Band thread. I think its a great idea, and whoever we have to talk about that (the site's owner apparently?) we should. It really would solve a lot of problems, and wouldnt require the mods to take a more active hand which they seem unwilling to do.

Umm... depends on who it is, actually. I would welcome rab back, anyway.

And I agree with Debbie and Emily.


Agree with you that the thread should not have been locked with its issues not resolved (still love you Billy!) and that thread wasn't anywhere near as toxic as what went on when NPP was released and I took my leave.

Seems that the thread was a threat, and with a German accent you can't even tell those two words apart. :)

Honestly, I hate to agree with you--because I truly do respect Billy, GF and SMiLE Holland too--but thats really what it felt like to me. Like politicians calling in the police to break up the protest rather than actually addressing their grievances. Very shitty situation all around, Im sorry to say.

Mujan, Rab was/is clearly on the side of OSD in that thread.

Doesnt discount any of what I said. He left because of annoying cliques and the neverending controversy about Mike, and Brian. The annoying, unnecessary sides that have cropped up and pervade every thread these days. Cant say anything negative about Mike or the Club Kokomo crowd come in to accuse you of being a hater. Mention him at all and the Brianistas come in to bash him. In an effort to compensate for the lack of Mike appreciation or some other madness I dont get, there's annoying talking points about Brian's handlers and auto-tuning which shouldnt matter even if true. I wasnt trying to imply OSD ran him off the board--and Im not knowledgeable enough about OSD to take a side for or against him. All Im saying is we all seem to be on the same page about the annoying in-fighting on this board ruining every potentially cool conversation and it was SO REFRESHING to see it openly expressed by damn near everyone on one thread. And it was equally disappointing to see the same thread abruptly shut down with seemingly nothing done about the collective dissatisfaction.

Really, though. This is not a new problem. I read this board for a long time before I ever created an account, and my impression of it, even before the current trolling, was that it was awfully confrontational for a fan board about this particular band. I was foolish enough to think that established fans would be eager to share with newer fans or would enjoy conversing with them about their interest in this band's history, but any time someone new posted an opinion or asked a question, they were inundated with snarky comments from people who "knew more,: or they were caustically instructed to use the search feature.  I decided to take the plunge with C50 because, I figured, that put us all on more or less equal footing, discussion wise; but I've been careful about what kinds of things I post. I only share my opinions of the classic music in a general sense, since anything else gets shot down; and I stick to news, interviews and recent releases.

It's a shame, really. Brian wants his music to project love into the world. But, on his biggest fan board, that's certainly not happening. And, it hasn't been since I first discovered the place.

Between this board, youtube, the bloo and various blogs, I've noticed that some fans feel the need to fight various members ongoing disputes for them. Really, it has f*** ALL to do with any of us. Posters should give opinions on stuff by all means but they should leave this imagined 'personal connection' they have to band member X at the door and quit getting offended if someone see things in a different light to them. If they did, that would be 90% of the arguing gone.

And it never will, Cyncie,  as long as that attitude is allowed to spread and saturate this board like a fungus. Scores of posters have sought out greener, friendlier pastures because of someone who "knew more" Shame.

Well, when some believe that there is a plot to replace board leadership with "pro-Mike" people (seriously; I've never read a more retarded strawman in my life) maybe the best way to deal with it is to let people call out bullshit for what it is, point out the elephant in the room, and let it all fizzle out. I still don't think rab should have left for good as I value many of his posts; so do many others here. But hey, that's his life and his decision. The thread should have either been locked or moved to the Sandbox to continue to its natural end, which certainly would have come.

I do think both sides of the pro-Brian/Mike camps make valid points but also become annoying when the same points are made ad nauseam to the derailment of just about every thread. I don't think it's an issue that can really be solved by moderators without enacting policies that will actively police the content of messages, even if the content does not include stuff that wouldn't pass the Miller test. There should be free exchange of ideas as long as the board isn't constantly disrupted by it. However, a thicker skin is also going to be required on the part of ALL members on here. Don't like someone's opinion? That's life. We're not going to agree on everything; calling for people to be banned based on differences of opinion reeks of the special snowflake desire for a "safe space;" this is the real world and those people need to grow up and fast. If they're going to get that ruffled over what someone on the internet says, well, let's just hope for the best for them otherwise because they'll have a lot of trouble in life.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/bPqXEAlaBmlRS/giphy.gif)

I agree with the second paragraph entirely.

If you divide 10 members into the entire membership, it's an incredible minority. Just sayin'.

Wow, it really is crazy how much more common my experience was then I thought. I really thought I was alone in feeling so unwelcome, and only coming around here and there because of the drama. Agreed too on the irony that many of the older fans dont seem too interested in passing on knowledge or hearing the new interpretations of the younger fans. Of course, the only two people who personally gave me grief for that have been banned so...yay?
That, and people offering legit criticism (Hey, I noticed Mikes never expressed regret for anything/I dont like NPP) is misinterpreted as part of the infighting, so you get called a hater and flamed for it. Ironically, its this over the top response that turns people against whatever camp attacked them for expressing a real, balanced opinion and forces you into the other side by default. At least, thats whats happened to me with Mike Love.
Still the first time Ive seen 10 (and I believe it was more than that, for what its worth) people on a single thread agree on something around here. Im not saying I agree with them that you should be banned necessarily--I have no beef with you personally and havent been here long enough to say who's to blame for a lot of the infighting--but I do think the mods reaction to deflect the conversation and then lock the thread was wrong. The conversation taking place there was one that needed to happen and one I personally have been hoping would happen since I got here. Its important for people to be able to air their grievances and its obvious to everyone theres a lot of hurt feelings here--evidenced if nothing else by Rab leaving.
Exactly. Theres obviously a lot of bad blood thats been boiling for a long time. It was really refreshing to see it brought to the forefront for once. Id always felt like a lone malcontent bringing it up before and knowing I havent been alone feeling the way I do was revelatory. Moved to the Sandbox is fair but I think it was definitely wrong to lock it. It feels like shutting up the community about legit and ungoing issues rather than letting things come to their end as you say.

Absolutely. Whats frustrating is the tribalism in the first place; where if you dare to criticize Mike youre a hater who doesnt respect ANYTHING hes contributed and vice versa for Brian. I also think theres something to be said about people who add nothing to a conversation but derisive quips or ridiculous, baseless theories (like the whole asinine Mike secretly wrote Vega-Tables thing I still cant understand the logic for). I think it can be stopped very easily if certain repeat offenders were warned and banned if they dont comply. Theres no need to be thought police (you dont like NPP/You think Mike contributed to SMiLE's demise? BAN!) but rather looking at people's aggregate contribution and determining "does this person actually make good points or do they just start fights and post intentionally inflammatory one sentence quips?" The problem is the forum IS undeniably disrupted by the whole thing. As stated in the older thread, posters have left. We just lost another here. Every other thread devolves into the same arguments, largely fought by the same people and that absolutely devolves the overall quality of discussion. I agree having a thick skin to dissenting opinions is required for the internet in general, but thats not what Im complaining about. Its people trolling the entire board with impunity, as well as an overall combative attitude of at least half if not more of the people here, largely due to the ingrained camps that have been allowed to form. Not only that, but people just looking to pick fights in general like Kitkat and Mikie and carrying them over the course of many threads, to where its literal harassment. I remember being completely baffled that those two in particular were allowed to talk to people like they did with seemingly no one calling them out or telling them that behavior wouldnt be tolerated (tho to be fair, its possible that was done thru PMs). Im not advocating for some Yale-esque safe space, just a functional one.

Aye, I did miss it.
Agree with your 2nd point, nobody is goody-good & nobody's bad thru & thru. Glad you admit your fault. However, I don't still think you had any right to say that some of us "have zero self-awareness". It is condescending & bordering on psychology of human character. I mean you don't know these people enough, you can't read their mind why they wrote what they wrote. Just clarifying some things. No harm intended.
3rd, sure, you aren't initiator but you & some others seem to dismiss what the people who don't agree with rab2591 say. I don't even know why people keep on going supporting him leaving niceties here. rab2591 CLEARLY said that he doesn't care if this thread gets any replies & that he won't answer, he signed off just as he finished typing the original post. Weird lot.
   See, what I tried to say but maybe needs repeating is that he posted this thread originally in the main board - place to talk about the BEACH BOYS, obviously. and he's a mere poster, no connection to the band, he's just a fan. So, one's decision to leave the place has exactly what to do with the BBs? I don't agree with you, Mujan & with Micha that the thread shouldn't be moved to the Sandbox. If people want to discuss the issues with the board & address them, there is the "Welcome to the Smiley Smile board" subforum. There is a thread called "Ask the moderators". Everyone can go & post there. But posters, for some reason, seem to be fixated on the "General on topic" section. I thought people finding new board, would be curious enough to dig every corner, every feature & function of it. Not just be focused on few things. There are 8 sub-forums & rarely do people notice it which is baffling, frankly. By doing research on the board as a newbie, I found the "Who's online" feature that allows to monitor what other posters/guests read. It's not against the rules so I do it. It's not like those features are hidden, you just click on things & they open.
   Regarding what Cyncie said, I agree that this board had not been kind to newbies but when you get used to it it doesn't seem as offensive. F.ex. as a newbie, I was told not to revive old threads & it happens even now, iir. I did feel kind of unwelcome because of that. for a short time, then immediately got back to my overjoyed mood because of getting to talk with Americans (I'm from Russia). I just love this country, esp. California. Limeys are good too, some nice British folks here & other nation fans. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I don't see what's the big deal about the board's bad environment is.

You know, when I read your post yesterday I realized that this is like a conga line of exasperation. You're exasperated with me and some others, so you're telling me off. I became exasperated with the Mike's Band thread, so I told people off. Some people on that thread were exasperated with each other so they told each other off. On and on.
The best way to end it is to follow my own advice and cut it out. Which I will do right now.

Yes, we aren't going to agree, everybody sticks to their line of thinking. But I think it would be right to say that the best thing to deal with bad environment/trolls is be apathetic. It isn't our business that rab2591 made up his mind, we can't change it. I think some people will agree with me, you too.
And no, you read it wrong. I was by no means exasperated by what your post stated. Merely said that self-awareness is offensive thing to say. Mere disagreement.

I think many, if not most, reasonable posters here would disagree with that. Apathy, or a very reasonable facsimile thereof, has ruled here for a good few months, and the result is the current situation. My feeling, and that of over a dozen others (which is a modest yet substantial percentage of the active posters) it that this forum would strongly benefit from some firm (not aggressive - with Clay on that, we don't want Gorts here) moderating which addressed the concerns raised in the Mike's Band thread - which I agree was locked with unseemly haste for no plausible reason beyond sheer, and understandable, exasperation. Andrew Hickey's anti-troll script, speaking personally, has transformed my experience of this board almost at a stroke (try it) into something much more agreeable. I just have to keep remembering it doesn't work on my cell phone.  :)

Exactly. I just dislike how each time issues of trolling or harassment are raised, its always thrown back at us "oh well what kinda board do you want, one where no one can speak their minds?" No obviously not. But one where trolls and obviously bullying posters are told "Youve been warned; cut the sh*t or you're out" would be nice.

I would have to agree that this place has become very negative and unpleasant; in fact that's why I hardly ever come here anymore. I must admit however, that when I was active around here I did post far too much, and a large bulk of that was inanely moronic. So a large part of the hostility I received was justified in hindsight - but much of it did go way too far though. There was also a crippling lack of action towards much of that, which left me quite bitter, and gradually I just stopped coming here. It seems that things have only gotten worse around here, which is truly a shame, because this place at its best is absolutely exhilarating to say the least. But I can fully understand the OP's point of view on how this place has become lately.

Glad I've revisited this thread. It's a far more level-headed discussion of the issues than is happening in the "Mike's Band" thread.  Mujan, you're talking a lot of sense… that thread was shut down too early, but it's resurrection overnight is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted and resulting in, to my eyes, an even more vitriolic discussion that before.

Andrew Hickey's RoboMod button is a great invention (though I won't be using it as I tend to view the board on my phone) but should it have been necessary?

I appreciate (having run a message board which had it own miscreants) the fact that the mods have their own lives to lead and their own real life issues to get through; they cannot be here all the time, and they have to judge those issues they are able to react to on an individual basis; I also accept that, as the mods are, like the rest of us, mere humans, it's nigh-on impossible to perform that task in an objective way, and personal preferences will always intrude and influence. Being a mod is a thankless task – a lot of the time it seems that whatever you do is viewed as the wrong action by someone.

I regarded the position of mod as being a bit like that of a guy being elected to referee a soccer match between friends. If he applies a fair approach to all players, no problem and he's respected for it. But if he red or yellow cards others some for fouling while letting friends on the other team get away with similar fouls, then where's the respect going to come from? Only someone with genuine malice in mind is going to hold a fair and level approach against him, and that's no real friend. By the same token, the friend who's allowed to get away with fouls will seize on that advantage and get away with more and more indiscretions/fouls, at the same time having less and less respect for his "buddy", though he's not going to lose his advantage by letting anyone know that. Fair refereeing would result in the ref being bought drinks by all parties, not just his fouling "buddies".

I still wake in the night troubled by the havoc that insensitive people used to wreak on my old (non-BBs) board, and it's 18 months since I handed that board over to others. I had to give a virtual slap-of-the-wrist to several posters who were friends in the real world, and had been long before I took on the board. As I was sat at a screen at the time I couldn't gauge their reactions and I'd stress out for ages afterwards, though I don't think I misjudged things too badly and still enjoy a round with them all when we meet up.

That's just the thing. Can't put it any better than that.

To pick up the "You think Mike contributed to SMiLE's demise? BAN!" subject, the only one who always claims Mike was totally cooperative during the SMiLE sessions is Cam, but if you disagree with him, he doesn't get rude or start conspiracy theories, just the way it should be. I want to be able to criticize and praise all band members where I feel adequate. Unfortunately, not all posters take such criticism or praise level-headedly, and unfortunately, this board isn't the only online place where things like that happen at all.

In this sandbox I had a conversation with filledeplage about gun restriction, and though we had completely 180 degree point of views, the conversation kept civil. None of us convinced the other, either, but no bad feelings seem to have been produced. (Taps own shoulder :wink)

For those who might be wondering (both of you...), I'm laying back out of the resurrected "Mike's Band" thread, partly because I'm laughing too much to type properly, partly because someone doesn't need any further help in digging a deeper hole than they're already in. But mostly because I'm not dumb enough to rise to the obvious bait.

Should Billy or Klass be dropping by, my formula for World Peace & candy bars is...

1 - completely re-write the rules, in collaboration with the rest of the board: as they stand, some are a bit vague. The duties and responsibilities of a mod are similarly codified. Trolling is defined.

2 - the rules being approved by the board, a general amnesty is declared so that everyone starts afresh with a level playing field. All probations are wiped out, those currently banned are invited back.

3 - the clock is reset to midnight, and we start afresh. Board rules are applied stringently, but fairly. No mod can act in isolation.

4 - in line with the fresh start an election for fresh mods: the existing mods can put their names forward, of course.

Not going to happen, but a man can dream...

Cripes, an election for mods? Now there's a fresh battle zone… :(

Please no!

Yeah I really like the first 3 suggestions though.

Given the recent intelligence revelation in the Mike's Band thread, I can see your line of thinking there…


Cripes, night of the living dead! I'd need to see a list of those in line for resurrection before I signed up for that. 'Cept Mikie. But only if he wants to come back…


Anyone else feel like chiming in?

To badly misquote the sainted Gertrude, clean sheet is a clean sheet is a clean sheet.  :)

The mods do not act in isolation when decisions are made as has been explained many times on the board, whoever is on board at the time discusses everything involved before a decision is made, and at least two mods are always involved depending on who is available. The only time a singular decision happened recently was when a mod moved this thread to the Sandbox and failed to inform the other mods. I don't know who did that.

Some posters have lifetime bans and no matter what happens, will never be allowed back.

We'll first get to work on enforcing existing rules so they apply evenly across the board to all members, then maybe pull out the quill pen and parchment to add to what's already there.

Should these "duties" of a mod be subject to the demands of self-important posters with a bloated sense of authority and influence over this community and its membership? Just to clarify...

Sure.

Agreed. I'm in the process of looking over every single life time ban, and have yet to see one that is going to be overturned.

My thoughts exactly.

Again, on the mods acting in isolation point: This has not been the case leading up to this week, and decisions are made in agreement with at least two mods.

So to clarify again, whatever misunderstandings or lies are being used to say otherwise, none of the decisions such as bans, enforcement of rules, etc was made by a mod acting alone.

Perhaps it's time to say stop suggesting or claiming otherwise, those who are doing it, because it's not true and has not been true at least since I have been here. Any decision made was done in agreement with another mod. All of them.

Someone claimed mods were "bullied" into making a decision. This is not only untrue, it's absurd. Maybe under previous moderators this happened, but not since I have been a mod has another mod been bullied. End of story.

I mostly agree with you Mujan about this thread except for... "baseless theories (like the whole asinine Mike secretly wrote Vega-Tables thing I still cant understand the logic for)".  In spite of your inaccurate and condescending language I'll let it pass for board peace.  Back to mostly agreeing.

Oh was that you 8) Haha, my bad man. I just remembered someone saying that and it getting under my skin. But yeah, lets just forget it

Sounds like a good plan to me. We ought to combine these ideas with Donny and Sam's from the Mike's Band thread as the new "Constitution" for the thread.

Anything that gets the place back to something like normality after recent events. Not entirely sure what constitutes normal here, but this past week sure as hell wasn't it.

Thanks, Micha for those very kind words.  You are bilingual.  And, I'll tap your other shoulder, too! :lol

I see that which was locked, then unlocked, is once more locked.

Also that he who left returned so they could mysteriously exit once again

Indeed. A clear violation of Message Board Helpful Hints & Splendid Wheezes #13a - if you flounce off, promising never to return and return (however briefly) within four days, expect to be greeted by wide smiles, hearty laughter and the odd barbed comment.

To return to the re-locking, an excellent call by Billy. It was getting nasty again, and should never have been unlocked in the first place. I'm awaiting the New ! Improved !! board rules with uncommon interest.

I almost posted in that thread last night, and then realized that it would just be throwing fuel on the fire-- which I usually enjoy, but this has just become too sad. Despite my strong feelings about certain folks on this board, nobody really cares about my opinion, do they?

Some of my favorite posters have been twisted and corrupted by this feud, gone so far off the reservation that I cannot enjoy their posts.

But I will not be using the "ignore" script, even for the truly maddening posters. I used to "unfollow" the people I didn't want to read about on Facebook. By the end, my feed was so sterilized as to be useless and completely uninteresting. So instead, I've just unfriended those people I truly can't stand, and my feed is back to being... well, not useful, but at least it's not so fricking BORING.

I'm afraid the ignore function will result in this board never having a good conversation again. Already, some people who should be talking about the Beach Boys together have ignored one another, and I wonder if they will ever speak again. Is this really better than getting rid of some truly useless posters?!

I have no team. No agenda. I believe that mistakes have been made by posters on both sides of this argument. I hope the rules change will at least give us the tools to jettison some jetsam.

John - I'm not sure about elections.  I don't have a problem with the mods.  It is a given that there is discretion to make decisions.  What is troubling is that there has been some equivalency as between certain poorly behaved but "tolerated" posters and Andrew.  

The difference is in many respects Andrew can be like that tough teacher who doesn't suffer fools, may not be the most patient, but you can learn something valuable from him, and a lot of his work has withstood time and attack. In that similar way he is like GF who also brings an enormous knowledge bank to the table and posts thoughtfully  and methodically as would a professor who wants the students to have the background, the bases-in-fact, to make their own decisions.  

What goes on behind the scenes, whether Andrew has to have a few "words" to correct something incorrect, he might be better off just ignoring them.  Or, just opening-the-door right on the board.  

But my analysis is that so long as we are allowed to have Andrew's expertise, we have to endure bad behavior, from some who may be ardent fans, but who are not scholarly in their methods, (and who provoke, foster hate and insult only ) while not making anyone any smarter.

They can all drink together, and should socialize. :beer  There were suggestions of favoritism because some socialized off the board.  Ridiculous.  We  have a right to freely associate in the States.  

They should be friends.  God knows how hard it was to find someone like minded in the 60's and early 70's. No reason to be isolated in this pursuit.

However, those who continuously break either the now-in-effect board rules whether in the letter or the spirit (which I think require no modification) should go or at least get a good "time out."
  
That is my two cents.  ;)

I agree about the dangers of filter bubbles, and only created the ignore script because the truly useless posters *weren't* being got rid of. I think that moderation designed to make this a useful community would be infinitely preferable, but at the moment there are people on the board deliberately trying to get a rise out of other people on the board, and not posting anything else. Most of their posts are the textual equivalent of bonobos marking their territory with faeces, and that is understandably hard for others to ignore. Writing the ignore script seemed to me the least-worst option. I *hope* that very few people feel like they have to use it, and that they will use it on very few posters.

Currently, the words "this poster is ignored" are among the sweetest in my extensive lexicon.  ;D

I have a question about this, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, and won't be offended by any response, unless you break out calling me names or something crazy.
I am useless to this board. I don't bring any BB knowledge that isn't recorded here. I'd read this board for a while before I joined, but at some time I saw one tiny question that I could answer, so I joined and posted. Then I just sort of started responding now and then while reading, though not contributing any new, useful, knowledge.
Would you consider the proper thing, for the board you'd like to see, for people to be quiet unless they are posting something useful? Would you prefer that the board not involve trivialities and conversation that is not productive of knowledge?
If so, I wonder if it would make sense to have "knowledge" threads and "conversation" threads of some sort. Because I can certainly respect the idea that there are some people here wanting to talk as fact-finders and researchers, or people wanting to find already recorded facts. And the conversation beyond that can be distracting, and wading through tons of chitchat can certainly be tiresome when you're looking for information. But I think some people are sometimes here looking for a community beyond exchange of knowledge. I, for one, am living in a place where I have few acquaintances and won't be here long enough to make friends, really. So an online community is nice to have.
Would you consider I'm in the wrong place for that?

Not at all. Feel free to post any time. Opinions are valued as much as facts. All we ask is that posts be reasonably on topic, non-repetitive and not trollish in nature. World peace then ensues.  :)

What he said.

You are more than welcome here!

... and unlocked, locked, unlocked and locked. Anyone got a hammer and some nails ?

It's very, very frustrating. I've respected the line that Bily drew, as bave many, but it's like others keep hopping over the line then scurrying back into the trenches… it's frustrating but it seems we must respect the right if those who have such powers to exercise those powers.

I hate it when people who post thoughtful posts get put down, so please STOP PUTTING YOURSELF DOWN!!!



If that was required, the only valid posters would be AGD, c-man, Jon Stebbins, Steve Desper, yrplace, a couple of friends of band members who post here, and maybe Howie Edelson.



I think you're right. :)



Deep in the heart of Texas? :wink

I have no power or influence here, but...
I, at least, would definitely *not* prefer that the board "not involve trivialities and conversation that is not productive of knowledge" -- what I want is for this board to be a friendly, welcoming, community, where people can talk about the Beach Boys and (on this portion of the board) anything else they want.
Put it this way... if this was a physical space, I would want to be able to have a chat with AGD or Craig Slowinski or whoever, about who played the bass harmonica on I Know There's An Answer or something (obviously I know that's Tommy Morgan, but it's an example). But I'd also want to be able to chat with you about what your favourite record was, or your favourite memory of a live show. (And you seem like one of the more interesting, thoughtful, well-intentioned people to come along recently).
What I *wouldn't* want is for every time I was in the middle of a conversation, to have a couple of people come up and burp loudly in my ear and giggle. It would be distracting, and after they'd done it several thousand times, if it was in a physical space, I might well want them to be kicked out. Failing that, an earplug to put in the ear they always burped down would do the trick.
There are very, very, very few posts I would like to see deleted or posters I'd like to see banned. Were I a moderator (and I wouldn't take the job for all the money in the world, and nor would anyone want me to), a lot of threads that have been locked would still be open, a lot of banned posters would still be here. But there would be a few people -- not very many at all -- here that I'd tell to start behaving a lot better...

Andrew, you keep hitting the nail on the head. Emily, you bring a sense of decorum to what can sometimes, sadly, be a bear pit. I'm conscious that I bring little to the table in terms of scholarship or academic study, but I enjoy chatting about my fave band with fellow fans. I hope we can all continue to do that, happily, for years to come.

Hey Folks,

I'd like to point out something with more clarity that I think is important that doesn't seem to be much of a focus in recent discussions:

For the most part, I don't think it's what's being said that is causing any problem at any point on this board. It's how it's being said.


Here's something worth reading and thinking about (I think most everyone can admit to guilt in 80-90% of the items in this list below):

15 Styles of Distorted Thinking

Filtering: You take the negative details and magnify them, while filtering out all positive aspects of a situation. A single detail may be picked out, and the whole event becomes colored by this detail. When you pull negative things out of context, isolated from all the good experiences around you, you make them larger and more awful than they really are.

Polarized Thinking: The hallmark of this distortion is an insistence on dichotomous choices. Things are black or white, good or bad. You tend to perceive everything at the extremes, with very little room for a middle ground. The greatest danger in polarized thinking is its impact on how you judge yourself. For example-You have to be perfect or you're a failure.

Overgeneralization: You come to a general conclusion based on a single incident or piece of evidence. If something bad happens once, you expect it to happen over and over again. 'Always' and 'never' are cues that this style of thinking is being utilized. This distortion can lead to a restricted life, as you avoid future failures based on the single incident or event.

Mind Reading: Without their saying so, you know what people are feeling and why they act the way they do. In particular, you are able to divine how people are feeling toward you. Mind reading depends on a process called projection. You imagine that people feel the same way you do and react to things the same way you do. Therefore, you don't watch or listen carefully enough to notice that they are actually different. Mind readers jump to conclusions that are true for them, without checking whether they are true for the other person.

Catastrophizing: You expect disaster. You notice or hear about a problem and start "what if's." What if that happens to me? What if tragedy strikes? There are no limits to a really fertile catastrophic imagination. An underlying catalyst for this style of thinking is that you do not trust in yourself and your capacity to adapt to change.

Personalization: This is the tendency to relate everything around you to yourself. For example, thinking that everything people do or say is some kind of reaction to you. You also compare yourself to others, trying to determine who's smarter, better looking, etc. The underlying assumption is that your worth is in question. You are therefore continually forced to test your value as a person by measuring yourself against others. If you come out better, you get a moment's relief. If you come up short, you feel diminished. The basic thinking error is that you interpret each experience, each conversation, each look as a clue to your worth and value.

Control Fallacies: There are two ways you can distort your sense of power and control. If you feel externally controlled, you see yourself as helpless, a victim of fate. The fallacy of internal control has you responsible for the pain and happiness of everyone around you. Feeling externally controlled keeps you stuck. You don't believe you can really affect the basic shape of your life, let alone make any difference in the world. The truth of the matter is that we are constantly making decisions, and that every decision affects our lives. On the other hand, the fallacy of internal control leaves you exhausted as you attempt to fill the needs of everyone around you, and feel responsible in doing so (and guilty when you cannot).

Fallacy of Fairness: You feel resentful because you think you know what's fair, but other people won't agree with you. Fairness is so conveniently defined, so temptingly self-serving, that each person gets locked into his or her own point of view. It is tempting to make assumptions about how things would change if people were only fair or really valued you. But the other person hardly ever sees it that way, and you end up causing yourself a lot of pain and an ever-growing resentment.

Blaming: You hold other people responsible for your pain, or take the other tack and blame yourself for every problem. Blaming often involves making someone else responsible for choices and decisions that are actually our own responsibility. In blame systems, you deny your right (and responsibility) to assert your needs, say no, or go elsewhere for what you want.

Shoulds: You have a list of ironclad rules about how you and other people should act. People who break the rules anger you, and you feel guilty if you violate the rules. The rules are right and indisputable and, as a result, you are often in the position of judging and finding fault (in yourself and in others). Cue words indicating the presence of this distortion are should, ought, and must.

Emotional Reasoning: You believe that what you feel must be true-automatically. If you feel stupid or boring, then you must be stupid and boring. If you feel guilty, then you must have done something wrong. The problem with emotional reasoning is that our emotions interact and correlate with our thinking process. Therefore, if you have distorted thoughts and beliefs, your emotions will reflect these distortions.

Fallacy of Change: You expect that other people will change to suit you if you just pressure or cajole them enough. You need to change people because your hopes for happiness seem to depend entirely on them. The truth is the only person you can really control or have much hope of changing is yourself. The underlying assumption of this thinking style is that your happiness depends on the actions of others. Your happiness actually depends on the thousands of large and small choices you make in your life.

Global Labeling: You generalize one or two qualities (in yourself or others) into a negative global judgment. Global labeling ignores all contrary evidence, creating a view of the world that can be stereotyped and one-dimensional. Labeling yourself can have a negative and insidious impact upon your self-esteem; while labeling others can lead to snap-judgments, relationship problems, and prejudice.

Being Right: You feel continually on trial to prove that your opinions and actions are correct. Being wrong is unthinkable and you will go to any length to demonstrate your rightness. Having to be 'right' often makes you hard of hearing. You aren't interested in the possible veracity of a differing opinion, only in defending your own. Being right becomes more important than an honest and caring relationship.

Heaven's Reward Fallacy: You expect all your sacrifice and self-denial to pay off, as if there were someone keeping score. You fell bitter when the reward doesn't come as expected. The problem is that while you are always doing the 'right thing,' if your heart really isn't in it, you are physically and emotionally depleting yourself.

*From Thoughts & Feelings by McKay, Davis, & Fanning. New Harbinger, 1981. These styles of thinking (or cognitive distortions) were gleaned from the work of several authors, including Albert Ellis, Aaron Beck, and David Burns, among others.

Why yes! I just don't know what to do about this...hmmm, I'm so perplexed that it's just ruining my little day. They should change the rules so I don't get upset because when such big things like this happen I'll probably get a little headache. Maybe if I wish real hard, it'll change. No wait, If I yell and scream real loud and stomp my feet or throw something, they'll listen. I just know if I don't get MY way, I won't be able to sleep tonight and then I'll be crabby again tomorrow. Ohhh, what will I do? I know, I just won't let them alone and I'll keep crying until they give me what I want. Oh boy!

:lol

You would think folks would appreciate a forum where you could chat and exchange info about some interest you all share. But acting under some perverse impulse, there are always some more interested in stirring up trouble and creating drama.

I don't understand it. Who wouldn't want a relaxed, genial atmosphere? Why would anyone prefer a tense, unpleasant series of exchanges while pursuing fun in your spare time?

But there it is.

Thanks for the validation folks! When I was reading Andrew Hickey's earlier post and saw the word 'useful' it sort of occurred to me that I should get a sense of whether my sort of chit chat is OK, blended as it is with more serious exploratory talk.
Andrew Hickey, your physical space analogy is of great use to me. Thank you.

I don't have a problem with disagreement, 90% of my posts eventually end with "we will agree to disagree".  I have a problem with insult, condescension, and name calling. Those are the things that should be more stringently self-moderated by many posters in my opinion.

I do apologise for giving the wrong impression. I have Asperger's, and one of the ways that shows itself is I sometimes use words which have completely the wrong emotional resonances. I consider "useful" to encompass "helpful", "friendly", "funny", "interesting" and so on.

So... that's what happens when a line is drawn. Have to confess, it was exactly what I expected, which is pretty depressing, and hardly bodes well for the future of this forum.

What are you referring to?

Munich 1938.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand Godwin's law again.

What is the TRBB's law? ;)

The Love Thang. Learn it. Live it. Love it. It's like the Mike Love sound...except with extra Love.

The Billy's Line & Moving Forward thread on the main forum...

It ain't right for the kids to be believin' in gangstas
Livin' large in the Palisades spittin' rhymes for fly wankstas
Can't nobody spit 'em like Bruce the Historical
When the sh*t hits the fan it's gonna be a miracle
Just The Nearest Faraway Place for me to whoop yo ass
Deirdre and my Disney Girls flying first-class
Singing I Write the Songs and the messages I'm sending
About Endless Harmony when you giving me Happy Endings. -TRBB 2013

LOL wow, that's a trip down amnesia lane...

Well it did get me to believe in love again...

Since SB wanted the complete Historical rap, it rises, like a Phoenix from the ashes.


Thank You Baby for this sick track
This one goin' out to all the surfers
Here we go

I'm Bruce Johnston; Historical's my hood name
Spittin' the hottest fire, the sickest in the surfin' game
Surfin' 'Round the World on the mean Palisades streets
Carmen can't help but feel my pulsing beats
She knows what it is, I'm the real O.G.
Cruisin' around like a thug in my Model T
She sayin' Won't Somebody Dance With Me
I told her hey, check out my Custom Machine

Gee, But I'm Lonesome, she opined one night
I knew that to get the puh I'd need to be her surfin' knight
Don't Be Scared, I warned her in the middle of our thing
She went down on my Pipe(line) and her bells did ring
And one day her old man decided to cross my dear chick
I knew that in a minute the sh*t was gonna end up thick
So when he tried to stop us from having our romp
I destroyed his grill with my Soupy Shuffle Stomp

Summer Means Fun now dontcha know
Gangstas gonna come and gangstas gonna go
I'm the real Rock and Roll Survivor
Gonna get with Deirdre and let her be my driver
And much to my surprise during our sesh
It was the pigs in blue outside in the flesh
I told my chick to watch out, this'll be a 113
It's a whole new level of police brutality

It ain't right for the kids to be believin' in gangstas
Livin' large in the Palisades spittin' rhymes for fly wankstas
Can't nobody spit 'em like Bruce the Historical
When the sh*t hits the fan it's gonna be a miracle
Just The Nearest Faraway Place for me to whoop yo ass
Deirdre and my Disney Girls flying first-class
Singing I Write the Songs and the messages I'm sending
About Endless Harmony when you giving me Happy Endings

Your science is tight! :afro

Deirdre disagrees; nothing is tighter than she is. :)

Your song is Straight out of Hawthorne. The real surf gangster. :hat

Those fools from Compton don't know HARD. The Historical was Thug Life before it was cool.

You been riding around in your woodie low rider station wagon again?

The chicks are all about that car. When it bumps they wanna romp.

Still cruisin after all of these years?

I was still cruisin' when the Wilsons were popping zits.

When is your duet with the Wu tang clan?

Those fools only think they could go toes on the nose with The Historical.

Bruce Johnston ain't nothing to f*** with!

Don't you forget it, son. Even Deirdre could Soupy Shuffle Stomp you nine ways from surfin' Sunday.

You wrote the ass kickings! :afro

Still B.r.u.c.e?

THIS - totally my feelings....

I am in the hospital from historical's drive by shooting.

Those gremlins f***ed with the wrong surfin' gangsta.

Yeah our smile t shirts made my gang easy to spot.

Your thugs wear Hawaiian shirts and trucker caps?

I believe that, in the light of current events on the main forum, the only possible comment is...

"Liar, liar, pants on fire !".  ;D

Iffn you're gonna flounce, best stay flounced.

Everyone is so damn glad that you keep score for us. How many times has your comrade Mikah said the same thing? Get off your pulpit. ::)