The Smiley Smile Message Board

Got this idea from some of the discussions about Bruce's standing in the band. It gave me an idea for this topic.

Take the "core" Beach Boys (Al, Brian, Bruce, Carl, Dennis, and Mike), and rate them 1-6 (1 being the best) in the following categories : voice, production ability, songwriting ability , and instrumental skill. Of course this will be purely subjective, but this could be interesting.

1. Brian - Was The Man at everything he did back then. Could sing and play it all and make it all.
2. Bruce - Producer from the start. Excellent singing voice. Excellent keyboardist. Good songwriter.
3. Dennis - Fantastic songwriter. "Little Bird" is the greatest song ever made. Great producer, interesting singing voice. OK but lively drummer.
4. Carl - Fantastic voice. Very good producing chops, but not-as-good a songwriter.
5. Al - Good musician.
6. Mike - great beard, nice voice, excellent lyrical abilities.

I'd go with Steve's but its hard (for me) to rank Dennis, Carl, and Bruce. I think they were at the same level with Dennis edging the forefront.

We need to include Murry Wilson in this ranking. Was he not a "core" member?

In my list, Murry Baby is number one.  :)

My feelings.

Voice:
1. Brian
2. Carl
3. Al
4. Bruce
5. Dennis
6. Mike

Production ability:
1. Brian
2. Carl
3. Al
4. Dennis
5. Bruce
6. Mike

Songwriting ability:
1. Brian
2. Dennis
3. Carl
4. Al
5. Bruce (I realize Bruce was a skilled writer, but I don't like his songs)
6. Mike

Instrumental skills:
1. Bruce
2. Brian (I love Brian's playing, but it is a pounding feeling, whereas I think Bruce plays with more nuance)
3. Carl
4. Al
5. Dennis
6. Mike

That's what I was struggling with when ranking them. I like "Deirdre" a lot but the others don't do much for me.

Wow, you'd put Mike in last place for voice? I dont know man, I mean passed all the shitty things he's done, I think Mike's voice is definitely an important piece of 'The Beach Boys'

I agree with Brian, Carl, and Al being on top. But I'd put Mike and Bruce together (if not Mike edging a bit since he was in all of the early recordings) and then Dennis. Agreed, Mike's current nasal voice doesnt really do it for me, but I dig all his past vocals.

I meant comparing in individual categories, like this:

Writing
1. Brian- Nuff Said.
2. Dennis-  There are some days where I'd actually put Dennis first.
3. Mike- He co-wrote some of the best music in history, and some of the best selling. One thing he does not get credit for is the fact that he came up with many of the low parts himself; Chuck Granata's Pet Sounds book points this out. Also, the few times he wrote music, he did pretty well- "Big Sur" especially, but many don't realize that "Let the wind blow" was mainly written by Mike.
4. Al- He could write songs that sounded like something Brian would come up with, and he also brought a nice folky edge to their sound- "Looking At Tommorrow" was great, as was California Saga.
5. Bruce- His writing was weak when he returned, but before then he was excellent- "Nearest Far Away Place", "Deirdre", and "Disney Girls" were all wondeful. Loses points for the horrible "Endless Harmony".
6. Carl- Despite writing some excellent material in the early 70s, Carl never was as prolific, or as consistent. He wrote some pure dreck at times, esp. "Going South".

Vocally-
1. Carl- Except for a slight dip in the late 70s, Carl was the most consistently excellent singer in the group, whether it was sweet ballad or a harder rocking number.
2. Brian- Mainly for the stuff before 15 Big Ones.
3. Al- If it weren't for Brian's prime period, I'd rank him right under Carl. He could do a spot-on Brian, to the point where even now people argue over who sang what. Unlike the rest of the band, his voice aged very little over the years. His voice sounds like a mix between Mike and Carl.
4. Mike- The "classic" material wouldn't have sounded right with anyone else but Mike. Despite how horrible his vocals became in later years, he could really sing when he had good material- both versions of "Big Sur" esp., and "Aren't You Glad" being good examples.
5. Bruce- Had a nice, pleasant, sweet voice. Would be ranked higher, but he could only sing ballads.
6. Dennis- Had the most "limited" voice of the group, but also had a soulful edge to it.Being the "least talented" singer in the Beach Boys is kinda like being the "worst" of the 1927 New York Yankees.

Production:
1. Brian- The greatest producer of all-time, bar none.
2. Dennis- Awesome. POB is still the best BB solo album, and his productions on Sunflower are great. Like Brian, his productions never dated.
3. Carl- His early 70s work still stands the test of time. Brian producing 15 Big Ones is one of the greatest tragedies of rock, as they never again hit the peak they did when Carl was the man.
4. Al-  Contributed some nice work himself.
5. Bruce- Would be ranked higher than Al, but KTSA had horrible production- "School Days" esp. sounded unfinished, and the back-up vox were annoying as hell.
6. Mike- n/a as Mike had no interest in producing, and has admitted as such.

Instrumental Ability-
1. Carl- The best instrumentalist the group had- he was smoking on the guitar, and could also play the piano when needed (Feel Flows).
2. Brian- Could play basically anything, but didn't on a regular basis. His piano was excellent.
3. Bruce- Could play the piano well, and could also play bass ("Wild Honey").
4. Dennis- Mediocre in the studio, his live drum work was pretty good, and always had a real vital energy, even if the rest of the group was going through the motions. He could also play the piano.
5.  Al - Just now coming out that Al actually played bass many times, and was quite excellent. I don't think his guitar work has ever been too audible.
6. Mike- n/a

I know he was a main factor, and obviously was featured most for at least the first five years or so, but I dislike his voice. Strongly. It annoys me. Dennis' is the only voice that is technically worse than his, but at least Dennis' voice had a character that I enjoyed sometimes. Mike's...I like a few of his leads, but honestly not many. This isn't meant as a knock on how he's a shithead, either (although he is). It's just where I would rank those categories.

Hmm, I dont knwo how you can put Mike ontop of 'Writing Ability' he wrote the LYRICS for all those songs you mention, nothing really musical...as you mention in the production section. I also can't dig how you put Bruce 4th place in instrumental ability, I have to go with Luther that he's possibly the best musician of the group. He can play multiple instruments very well, and remember he joined the Beach Boys and learned all the songs in a DAY and took over very smoothly (albiet a few rough patches to their first performance)...

I dont know, I cant really come up with these lists myself...I can only critique everyone elses :p

Actually, I had put Mike third, behind Brian and Dennis. He did contribute to the arrangements, make no mistake about it.

And yeah...I rethought the whole thing about Bruce being ranked behind Dennis instrumentally. Switched 'em.

O.K.

Voice:
1. Brian
2. Carl
3. Mike
4. Alan
5. Bruce
6. Dennis

(5&6 just because they weren't as prominent, certainly both are excellent singers)

Production:
1. Brian
2. Carl

Don't know enough about dennis bruce mike or al's production skills

Songwriting ability:
1. Brian
2. Mike
3. Dennis
4. Al
5. Bruce
6. Carl

I'm fairly ignorant of bruce or carl's songwriting ability. 

Instrumental skill

1. Bruce
2. Brian
3. Al
4. Carl
5. Dennis
6. Mike

I'm not positive, but I believe Bruce is a pretty accomplished player, right?  Brian for his great boogie woogie piano, Al because of his 70's and later guitar ability, Carl and Dennis were competant, Mike can't hardly play anything

Production
1. Brian
2. Carl
3. Bruce
4. Dennis
5. Mike
6. Al (Slips behind Mike becasue of MIU)

Voice
1. Carl
2. Al
3. Brian
4. Mike
5. Bruce
6. Dennis
Dennis would be higher if he hadn't lost his voice.  His voice on Sunflower and 20/20 indicate a very soulful singer.  Mike is very over-rated.  The least integral part of most of the songs that Mike sang lead on were the lead vocals.

Songwriting
1. Brian
2. Dennis
3. Bruce
4. Carl
4. Mike
4. Al

Instument
1. Carl
2. Bruce
3. Brian
4. Al
5. Dennis
6. Mike

Performer
1. Carl
2. Al
3. Mike
4. Bruce
5. Dennis
6. Brian
People will quibble about where I rank Dennis but I stand by it.  He loads of charisma but he was an uneven performer at his instrument, added few vocals and would take several songs off during a show - Very replacable.

Yes, Bruce is probably the most accomplished instrumentalist, apparently having taken years of classical piano lessons starting as a young boy.  How that translated over to being a good songwriter or producer is open for debate, usually hinging on personal taste.  Neither his nor Brian's piano playing has been a focal point in the recordings or on stage (as a solo part or prominent in the audible arrangements), but rather in the songwriting itself. I like most of Bruce's BB stuff, Deirdre, Disney Girls, even the off-criticized Tears in the Morning to a certain degree, and I like I Write The Songs.  I like a lot of different styles and genres. Brian's obviously a good piano player, but in a different way.  More self-taught,  more intuitive, perhaps more personal, which can (or did) lead to some pretty interesting music. Ask Bruce to play a Gmaj7/9 and he'll probably have it spread out with all ten fingers and thumbs, then invert it three ways for you and tell you the names of all its substitute chords and show you how to make six more chords by moving one finger; ask Brian and he might say "huh? A what?" - but if you said, you know, that chord you used in such and such a song, he'll say "oh, yeah" and nail it for you and write a new song on the spot with it with some new chord progressions no one's ever heard of just to make the harmonies work.  For him, it's always been that ear, which, as Dylan said, should be left to the Smithsonian.

As for some of the others, I know this is dangerous to say around these parts, but I've never really cared that much for Dennis' work, although some of it is good. I really like Be With Me from 20/20.  I bought POB when it was issued and, sorry, it just has never grabbed me.  I know it is quite good in many ways and to many ears, but it's just not my cup of tea.  Maybe if I hear it again (no turntable) it would have a different impression.  That's happened before. He clearly had a gift for both writing and producing even if I didn't really care for the style. 

Someone mentioned Carl was inconsistent.  Yes. i never could quite figure out the two solo albums, although his show we saw in 1982 was great.  My two Carl favorites are Full Sail and Goin' South, which regularly gets ripped on this forum. Sorry guys, I think it's great. To each his own. Fortunately there is more than one kind of music or it would get pretty boring.  His Surf's Up era  stuff  was OK but never grabbed me too much. It's hard to tell about his playing, since there wasn't too much featured  "up-front" guitar work after the surf and hot rod years, and seems like on stage the hired guns played a lot of those.  I was always hoping he'd break out more there. You could always tell he was doing some good stuff in the backing, but I wanted to hear more lead work.

Hard also to tell about Al, but he clearly has more going for him than many might think. A solid player with a good, adaptable voice. i agree that his folk background provided an important element - who would have thought of the BB's doing Cottonfields, particularly with his whole new composition, or Looking At Tomorrow.  It worked perfectly, as did, of course, Sloop John B.  Lady Lynda is superb but like we've heard about his songwriting so often, it took him years to finish it. He's always done a great job on his featured vocals and I'm including things like School Days live.  Too many covers, though, all in all, or songs that sound like covers.  I think songwriting and all that just never mattered too much to him and that's up to him. When you've got Brian Wilson putting charts in front of you, why worry about it.

Regarding Mike's contribution, in my opinion he gets put down too much, usually for reasons having nothing to do with the music.  Many people say anyone could have done his parts or written his lyrics.  The point is, they didn't.  He did.  They were good.  I guess one could say the same about any of them with the exception of Brian, and he's not the only songwriter in the world (just one of the best).  The Beach Boys were successful because of each one of the people involved.  Brothers, cousins, next door neighbors. Unique talents, unique circumstances, unique times. Whether it would have happened with other members is a moot point.  It happened the way it did and we are all the better for it. It's not for nothing that the entire group is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. and Brian's in the Songwriter's.

Well-written post, altough I disagree about Dennis.

That was excellent.

"Well-written post, although I disagree about Dennis."

You mean you don't like Be With Me? : = )

LOL...I love the song. I meant your feelings about POB.

Got me good, though.

It was too good to pass up (he smiles on a Houston Sunday morning before heading off to church).  When I listened to POB the first time, i was very impressed with the production, the musicianship, the lyrics, quality of the arranging.  Dennis obviously knew what he was doing.  But with all that, I just didn't care for the style of song.  Maybe the same way someone would have to concede those same qualities about, pick a spectacular no-argument BB hit at random, Wouldn't It Be Nice, the first one that pops into my head, and still not care for the song or song style itself, if that makes any sense. I think I may have been expecting something entirely different, and it was Dennis who gave me something entirely different. Good for him, because it meant a lot to a lot of people.

My example about Bruce's and Brian's piano playing, the "Gmaj7/9 chord" story, wasn't meant to diminish Bruce's obvious musical knowledge and technical skill and leave the impression that those are less important, or that 10 years of classical lessons don't mean anything when it's time to write.  I can play piano to the extent that I can, no further comment necessary,  because I spend a lot of time studying those things - chord structure, theory, etc.  I enjoy that part of it.  But I surely don't have the knack Brian does to write a song, certainly not the way he can just toss one off. My intent was not to put down one approach and build up the other, rather to show how different musicians approach the task differently. I think they both play from the heart, Bruce and Brian, but they bring different skills to the table, or piano bench, in this case, and use those to create their music.

Of course, there's always "Forever" to fall back on.  I really need to listen to Dennis' music some more, I think.

Houston? I'm from Houston too!

I had that same feeling about POB at first.. it just wasn't my type of music.

I know. We've talked by email about Brian's Verizon SMILE concert.  We're near The Woodlands. Drop me a line when you get a chance.  Norm

You know it is hard to do this because of the changes in ability through the years. I will rank them by who I like best overall and put the years I think they each peaked.

Voice:
1. Brian 61-74
2. Dennis 65-73
3. Carl 1966-80
4. Al 65-80
5. Mike 61-75
6. Bruce 67-71

Production ability:
1. Brian 63-73
2. Dennis 68-80
3. Carl 68-73
4. Bruce 63-71
5. Al 68-78
6. Mike 67-73

Songwriting ability:
1. Brian 63-74
2. Dennis 68-78
3. Mike 63-74
4. Al 68-78
5. Carl 67-73
6. Bruce 66-71

Instrumental skills:
1. Brian 63-73
2. Dennis 68-78 (OK not a "proper" musician, but he played with feeling)
3. Carl 66-80
4. Al 67-80
5. Bruce 65-71 (great skills-little soul)
6. Mike 62-5

This is such a tough one because there's a question of technical ability vs. feel and instinct.  Who's the best technical player in the band?  Bruce, hands down (or possibly David Marks, but I'd probably give the edge to Bruce still). But he's not a rock player, his style is almost too polished.  It's great for certain things, but not others.

Now the Wilsons were some of the best "feel" players in the history of rock 'n' roll in my opinion.  I use their lessons as a studio musician and producer every single day.  They were all about how what they did fit into the whole, and this is a very rare instinct to have.  Carl ALWAYS underplayed.  But he was technically able to sing a harmony line and play the arpreggio to "Sloop John B" and that is a different skill set from what most "hot" players have.  

So that's a tough one for me, because my values system is that feel trumps technical ability every time, and the technical ability I value the most is the ability to play what's appropriate to the track cleanly and in time.  And that is almost always the simpler track...but that doesn't mean it's easy to play.  Yesterday I had to overdub a two note guitar line over and over again...but it had to be in perfect time for about a minute straight, and perfectly articulated.  That is not easy to do.  Carl was great at that kind of thing. So you see what I mean.

Songwriting I'd go Brian, Dennis, Carl, Bruce, Mike, Al.  The reason I rank Mike so low is although he's come up with some great lyrics, he's come up with some really dreadful ones and part of being a good songwriter is knowing what isn't working and Mike's never been, IMHO, a very good judge of that (I mean, he thinks it's working, but many of us would beg to differ).  I've always thought Al was underrated lyricist, but much of his songwriting is derivative of other sources.  You have to give Bruce props for his outside writing.  He's had hits....shlocky hits in some cases, but they were very appropriate to what he was trying to do and the market he was reaching.

Production it's a tough choice between Carl and Dennis for second after Brian.  Carl's production style has actually turned out to be more influential...a lot of indie people have imitated those early Brother records.  Dennis had great instincts but he didn't always get the final product right...POB for example has a lot of impact but it's a pretty muddy record (Earle has confirmed to me that this was the way Dennis wanted it).  Bruce has chops, and I personally like L.A. LIGHT, but I have to agree KTSA is pretty flat sounding.  But he has traditional studio chops.  So I would probably have to say Brian-Carl-Bruce-Dennis-Al, even though I prefer Dennis' production.

Voice: Another tough one because are we talking lead or background?  Because Bruce Johnston was a monster background singer, one of the best in the biz at one point.  If I was ranking them for that ability I might even put Bruce first, just for the ability to blend and do extremely difficult parts fast.  

For lead vocals, it's also tricky because I'd rate Mike the lowest technically over all of the guys (even Dennis at his prime I think was a better and more expressive singer, though you could argue the other way) but he has the right attack and attitude for lead vocals.   I'd probably put Carl first overall, then Brian, then I just don't know.

Carl was the best overall singer in the band, though.  He was the only guy that did regular session vocal work other than Bruce, blended well and could do extremely complicated parts with ease, was a master ballad singer, and unlike Brian (at least 'til later), he could sing rock pretty well.  He had stupid range too...the G5 on "Wild Honey" is, I believe, the second highest note on a Beach Boys record after the backup vocal on the verse of "Surf's Up"...which I believe was also Carl.

Great question, Billy.

1. Dennis

I know most would place Brian on top, but I feel Dennis to be the best of the group, albeit the most underrated by casual fans. His instrumental playing is fantastic as you see from his energetic and lively drumming skills (especially on the Knebworth DVD), his work on piano is also fantastic, listen to POB, I think he plays almost all keys on the album. His songwriting was absolutely fantastic from Little Bird, Be With Me, all his contributions on Sunflower, Lady, Cuddle Up, Make It Good (despite what most people say), both contributions to Holland and the entire POB album. This soulful, thoughtful and passionate songwriting is only matched by his equally soulful and powerful voice. For these reasons he his the greatest Beach Boys, his story from lowly drummer-surfer-ladies man to the productive and artistic singer/songwriter also adds to his greatness.

2. Brian

We all know about Brian, I don't have to write much without boring you.

3. Carl

Probably the best voice in the band, it's too bad his songwriting was up to scratch as his brothers (with the exception of his Surf's Up contributions and The Trader. He also receives his position for his excellent guitar playing.

4. Mike

I hate the hate for Mike. He's a great addition to the band! His voice on both All I Want To Do and All I Wanna Do are fantastic examples of his dynamic and rocking voice, not to mention his brilliant skills as a charismatic frontman. He's also due credit for being able to score all those lovely, young and beautiful wives! But his best songwriting (solo) would have to be in Big Sur (I'm still not sure how he wrote the music to it, not being able to play an instrument and all, we'll rule out the sax). It's too bad he drove the band into a nostalgia act.

5. Alan

I like Al. He seems like a really cool guy, his voice is amazing too. He's a pretty standard guitarist if you ask me and his songwriting contributions are less than desirable. Although he has written some great songs including: Lookin' At Tomorrow, Susie Cincinnati and The California Saga (Lady Lynda's alright, too).

6. Bruce

Eh. Deidre's good.

Voice:
Mike (this might take some explaining to some people, but nevermind)
Brian (in his prime)
Carl
Alan (solid, everlasting)
Dennis (very soulful but not very dexterous)
Bruce (very dexterous but not very soulful)

Songwriting Ability:
Brian
Dennis
Mike
Bruce
Carl
Alan

Instrumental Ability:
Carl
Bruce
Brian
Alan
Dennis
Mike

Production:
Brian
Dennis
Carl
Alan
Bruce
Mike

Performing:
Mike
Carl
Alan
Bruce
Dennis
Brian

Now to have my morning coffee.

VOICE
1 - Carl
2 - Mike
3 - Brian
4 - Al
5 - Dennis
6 - Bruce

PRODUCTION
1 - Brian
2 - Carl
3 - Dennis
4 - Al
5 - Bruce
6 - Mike

SONGWRITING
1 - Brian
2 - Dennis
3 - Mike
4 - Al
5 - Carl
6 - Bruce

INSTRUMENTAL SKILL
1 - Carl
2 - Brian
3 - Dennis
4 - Bruce
5 - Al
6 - Mike

That last category was hard for me - I felt like I was stabbing in the dark, as I haven't been particularly observant nor intrested in how well the boys play their instruments.

Cop-out answer, but I really just can't choose, in most cases. All people are so good in each category, but generally for very different reasons. There's not really anyone I can think of it being fitting to rank as first above all else or last below all else in all categories with the exception of Brian being top choice for songwriting and production. Even then, some songs and productions are up there with Brian's best stuff, albeit not in the same quantity.

AOKT#((#(99

Totally agree with Luther on this one. :h5

VOICE - Brian
PRODUCTION - Brian
SONGWRITING - Brian
INSTRUMENTAL SKILL - Bruce

Here are my choices for the best in these categories. I have no interest in stacking up the other guys.

i think at this point we need to put Dave up near the top for instrumental playing skill. Maybe at the top.

Voice
Dennis
Mike
Carl
Brian
Al
Bruce

Songwriting
Brian
Dennis
Carl
Mike
Al & Bruce (yeah, I know that they're 2 opposite sides, have different styles but yet they seem somehow similar...Weird...)

Production
Brian
Carl
Dennis
Al
Bruce
Mike

Instrumental Skill
Brian
Bruce
Carl
Dennis
Al
Mike