The Smiley Smile Message Board

Through out all this talk about the Beach Boys reunions, there's a lot of the media talking about the original beach boys, being just the three, and just saying how Bruce Johnston has been around for like a while, but not calling him a real member. I just want to sort of guage everyone's opinion on this. I personally think he has every right to be a member of the Beach Boys and should get the media's respect. He's written songs for the beach boys on more than 10 occasions. I mostly want to hear from the people who think he shouldn't be included, just to see their reasoning.

Well I consider him a Beach Boy in a way but to me he just doesn't quite match the others talent wise. I think he is very independent of his Beach Boys career creative wise. His work on Sunflower and Surf's Up is pretty good but otherwise I don't think he added much to the direction of the group. When he was a producer from 78-79 his ideas were very mixed.

In most of the reissue projects since the turn of the millennium, there has been a little paragraph somewhere in the liner notes that says:

The Beach Boys are: Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson (d. 1998), Dennis Wilson (d. 1983), Mike Love, Alan Jardine and Bruce Johnston (1965-72, 1979-date).

Some of the more recent projects (rightly) add David Marks (1962-3, 1997-8)

You don't get something like that in a BRI sanctioned product without everyone involved nodding their corporate heads... so if it's OK by the rest of the band, then it's fine by me. Bruce is a Beach Boy. And so is David.

Bruce was definately not the least talented singer, producer and songwriter in the Beach Boys, so I disagee.

And I think it's wrong to not consider Bruce a 'real' Beach Boy because he missed the first four years and a few years in the 70s. It must be frustrating to still be more or less 'the new guy' in a band you joined 41 years ago...

On the BBB message board I have said to him he would be no real Beach Boy, he was very sour. Besides, I thought that he was none of the foundation members. For me he is one. I estimate his work very much, above all, in him of 70th with albums like LA or Sunflower. I also like the Keepin The Summer Alive produced by him.

But on concerts in the 80th he has hardly sung lead. And even now if only Mike is present, he sings a little.

Bruce does frequently refer to being in the Beach Boys as 'a job' rather than doing it for arts sake. He does it for the money because its easy, now I know the others to different degrees did the same, but at least they had some artistic interest (at one time) in being in the Beach Boys, theres only about half a dozen Bruce songs from his entire time in the BB, maybe he hasn't pulled his weight!

Well, gee, I wonder why that could possibly be ?  8)

Couldn't agree more. Would like to see Ricky and Blondie's stints recognised too in such acknowledgements. They, via Carl, did influence the BBs sound in the early '70s and – Andrew, please confirm whether I'm write in this – I believe that at that time they each held full Beach Boy-status in terms of payment/band member; they weren't just session musicians or on-stage players, but were fully integrated.  And to pick up on another point mentioned in an earlier post, their contributoions in terms of songs on albums probably were as high, ratio-wise, as any album featuring Bruce's songs.

Out of Dave Bruce Blondie & Ricci, Bruce has got to be the most Beach Boy as he was with the band with most of their hits during the sixties which was their best time.

The only way I would say it is justified to consider him not a "real" Beach Boy is if, business-wise, he isn't. Now I don't know how the BRI arrangement or payments work, but if they say he's a hired gun, then so be it, he is one. Otherwise, he's a Beach Boy. I would think that 41 years (minus a few in the 70s) should count for something. And if he isn't as prolific a writer or frequent a singer for them, so what? He certainly lent his musical talents to backing vocals and instrumentation on many, many occasions.

From  Pet Sounds onwards until he left in 1972 he was pictured on all the album covers and other pictures and a lot of the time as a five piece without Brian so doesn't that make him a full time Beach Boy?

Sort of. I think he is a Beach Boy.  ;D

A Beach man

Interesting point. Technically, he **IS** a hired gun, because he sold his share of Brother back to BRI in, I think, the mid-70s. But emotionally, he's a BB.

Besides the main members ie Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and Al, Bruce is by far the closest to being a full original member than other Beach Boys who have come and gone like Glen, Blondie, Ricki and even David Marks.  Bruce is also extremely talented, when I think of the other beach boys besides Brian who have blossomed in the late sixties with composing, arranging, producing etc Bruce is an equal to Dennis, Carl, Al and Mike.  Bruce's participation in a Beach Boys reunion is vital and necessacarry.

Ohhhh fantasy world...and Dis-a-ney girls...I'm coming back.

He has the same problem as Rolling Stone Ronnie Wood--Ronnie's been with the band since '75, but still isn't called a real Stone by some!

He tours with Mike Love as the Beach Boys, so as far as the average concert-goer knows/cares, he is more of a Beach Boy than anyone named Wilson!
Brian featured him prominently early on, on classics like California Girls and God Only Knows... so in that respect I consider him as much a Beach Boy as the rest of them.

But I can't stand the fact that he took Brian's place on album covers and publicity shots, essentially replacing Brian in the public eye.  I also don't like his songs... Tears in the Morning has to be one of THE worst songs ever written (on one of THE best albums ever made).  His disco remake of Here Comes the Night, one of my favorite Brian tunes is basically unforgivable.  And his embarrassing Mr.Rogers-in-short-shorts fashion sense and gee-shucks choirboy stage banter also make me ill... not to mention the fact that he has taken up residence in Mike Love's backside for the past two decades.

For those reasons, AND the fact that he walked out on a close friend of mine during an interview just because the guy said he really liked the 'Love You' album... it makes me kind of happy to see that he still isn't considered a "true" Beach Boy in certain articles, etc.

Did Bruce participate on any of the Love You tracks? I swear I could hear him on the tag of I'll Bet He's Nice.

  Bruce can be an ass at times, but still puts on that facade of being Mr. Nice Guy. I am not surpised he did that, judging from some of his online exploits/

That's a matter of opinon, and one open for debate. I personally feel he is. Although...being the least talented Beach Boy is still better than the most talented member of most bands...

I'd have to disagree with you chief. Bruce has written tracks that can destroy others. I think Bruce is up there with Brian, Carl, and Dennis. Completely surpassing Mike and Al. Tears in the Morning, Disney Girls, and his very own I Write the Songs (which won a grammy, hello!) are just gorgeous! Especially when he plays them live (as a solo mind you) at BB concerts.

If I saw Mike & Bruce's touring band, Ill be the guy in the front screaming for Bruce to sing DisneyGirls or I Write the Songs, because that would be worth the admission alone...

and it'd be blasphemy if I didnt mention Diedre :p

Deirdre is a great song. Tears in the Morning is...decent. Disney Girls is pretty good. However...that's it.  "I write the Songs" is pure dreck; how appropriate for Manilow to cover it.
His production abilities (or lack thereof) were laughable, at least after he rejoined the band. Really, he was a good member before he left. Once he returned though, he was basically a slightly more talented version of Adrian Baker only with more opportunity.

Mike co-wrote some of the best songs in pop history. Brian may have had "better" collaborators over a short period of time, but he always wrote consistently excellent songs with Mike. Mike was an irreplacable part of the vocal blend. Losing Bruce for most of the 70s didn't hurt them too much.

Al was criminally underappreciated. He could sound a lot like Brian in live performances , no mean feat. Compare with live shows where Bruce was trying to sing Brian's high parts (10/12/66 being a great example)...he couldn't do it. Al wrote better songs than Bruce ever did, and his voice aged very little over the years. His voice was generally excellent, and in someways reminded me of a mix of Mike's & Carl's.

Yeah, Bruce has EARNED the right to be called a Beach Boy.

I always thought Bruce thought of himself as a songwriter first, and a performer second. However, if you look at his released song output, it is relatively thin, especially for a 45 year career. His backlog of unrecorded songs must be huge...

This is in YOUR opinion. I would say the same about some of Mike's productions. Do you really want me to bring up Mike's solo album? I Write the Songs which is "pure dreck" would blow all of Mike's solos songs out of the water. And lets not go away from the fact that Bruce is the only 'member' who has won a grammy. None of your other points have really brought up why Mike or Al are more proficient in music production than Bruce. Bruce has done countless of stuff even before the Beach Boys ala Bruce & Terry and whatever else thats out there. I would love for you to list me what songs Al has done that competes with Bruce's song writing ability.

And Mike's collaborations with Brian as 'co-writing some of the best pop songs in history' does not compare with the fact that Bruce has written songs himself. We're talking about overall productions. Can we say Tony Asher is a better song writer than Bruce because he collaborated on Pet Sounds? Come on now!

I think Bruce is a great producer/writer/musician. Its one thing to not like his productions, but its another to say he's not at the same level as the others...

I see many points that have been brought up. I definitely think that Bruce can be an ass at times on the BBB and in interviews. But he has written many good songs. So I don't know how I feel about him totally. I wonder why he is like that, walking out on an interview when Love You was brought up. And to the person that asked whether he was on that album, he was credited on it.

I wouldn't use winning a Grammy as proof of artistic merit. Shall we pull a list of Grammy-winning songs? Really?

Is Ringo not really a Beatle?

The Beatles produced nothing of merit after Ringo joined...

I'll give you Disney Girls, Dierdre, and I can even handle Tears in the Morning sometimes.  Those are all good tunes.  I Write the Songs is God awful IMO and backing up how great it is by saying it won a grammy doesn't really work.  I mean, Milli Vanilli won a grammy as well!!  Should we be holding them in high regard for that accomplishment?  They aren't the only shitty people to have taken home the grammy either.  One of a great many!  And you say Bruce is the only member to win a grammy but did Brian not win the best instrumental grammy last year for Mrs. O'Leary's Cow?  I thought he did, but honestly, I can't remember.  Another strike against Bruce's songwriting, Endless Harmony!  One of my least favorite BB songs EVER!

My take is that Bruce certainly deserves to have member status in the Beach Boys.  He has put in more than enough time with them.  I'm not his biggest fan by any means but he deserves it.

I can't understand it when people dispute Bruce's role. Lets look at the facts...

1. Did Bruce perform on stage with the Beach Boys - Yes
2. Did Bruce play and sing on the albums - Yes
3. Did Bruce write songs for the Beach Boys - Yes
4. Did Bruce appear on the album covers - Yes
5. Is Bruce credited on the Beach Boys albums he was involved in - Yes

Did Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and Al do the above - Yes

That to me pretty much sums that Bruce can be classed as a full member of the Beach Boys, does the same apply to David Marks? Well, he certainly did most of the above (I can't confirm No. 3 from the top of my head?) and he is classed as a fully fledged member is he not?

Does the same apply to Ricky and Blondie? - Well, er, Yes!

 ::)

I think I went a bit too far bringing up the fact that Bruce won an Emmy. That reason itself wouldn't really have much of an effect of whether Bruce is a Beach Boy or not. I was just bringing it up to prove that he is a solid song writer/producer...and even though the Emmy might not mean so much now as it has at some point it's still recognition.

Past all the arguments and what not, in my opinion I think he's a member of The Beach Boys. For the same reasons mentioned above. 

The debate of where his place in line of 'the best beach boy writer/producer' is a whole other thread... :ahh

I agree with you Joe.  I just brought up the grammy thing to show that while it is an honor to be recognized in that fashion, there have been some pretty bonehead moves by the board that picks the winners.

I say Bruce is most certainly a Beach Boy for the above reasons.  David Marks is for the same reasons and I'm glad he is finally getting a bit of mainstreem recognition (rooftop celebration).  Now if only they would acknowledge Blondie and Ricky!  Why do the BB's continue to ignore the fact that they were in the band?

Let the record show that although I feel that Bruce is the "least" talented of the Beach Boys (in relative terms, of course;doesn't mean he's talentless), I do feel he's most definitely a Beach Boy. He has indeed earned that right.

That said, I agree heavily with those who feel its time for Blondie and Ricky to get their dues.

:lol hahaha nice find billy! I can't believe I didn't catch that...

I don't see why it matters if Bruce was a "real"  Beach Boy or why you have to create some kind of hierarchy with him as a kind of second class citizen. In terms of contribution he certainly carried his own weight.  After Brian he is together with Dennis probably the most talented, that was in that band, the others must have felt that way too, since they made him come back and produce them on "LA" and "Keeping The Summer Alive"

Søren

How does being a proficient musician with capable production skills make Bruce more talented than Carl???
I don't know about  Al as a producer, but I put him a notch above Bruce as well.  He's got way more heart and plain raw talent if you ask me.

'


Al did some decent productions. He loses points for some of the production on MIU, but Bruce loses more for KTSA (and esp. Oh Darlin, which was MUCH better in its original incarnartion). Not too much seperation talent-wise as far as production. I don't know if I'll necessarily say Al had more raw talent than Bruce, but I do feel (again, IMHO) that his style was more to my liking. He had more of an edge than Bruce, who was too MOR for my tastes.

You just gave me an idea for a new topic.

I think someone brought this up, but whats up with Bruce at the tag of I'll Bet He's Nice, is that the only song he contributed in for Love You? And if so, why? I thought he wasn't part of the band at the time...

He contributed even after he left, on everything except MIU.

But he's not on Carl & the Passions nor Holland...what else has he contributed to?

He did song on Marcella, and as for Holland... I honestly don't know. AGD said he was on there. I'll ask him.

"California" and, apparently, "Sail On Sailor.

I think he was a better songwriter, even though his songs were mostly cheesy, he was more creative in that respect compared to Carl, who mostly relied on very basic chord patterns. He was the only one besides Brian, who actually wrote some standards. Carl may have been a more tasteful producer, but I don't rank producing as high as songwriting. In terms of musicianship they were probably equal, even though I imagine Bruce knew more chords. When it came to singing Carl had the advantage of just having a better voice, but Bruce is a good vocalist, I heard him do GOK some years ago and I was pretty amazed at how great his performance was.


I think Al is boring as a producer, at least Bruce is cheesy.

Søren



Søren

songs like "Feel Flows" and "Trader" are better than anything Bruce ever wrote.

and he is incapable of writing a song as cool and rockin' as "Susie Cincinnati"

just because he "might" know more chords, doesn't make him more talented. 
If Brian is rock'n'roll's Rachmaninov (as Bruce is so fond of saying), then Bruce is its Shlockmaninov...

yeah i said it.

Of all but the original 5 Bruce is the one who was/is a true Beach Boy. I am only saying he doesn't match the others talent in my eyes. I don't think it's wrong to disagree with me, it's just taste. If Bruce hadn't come back in 78 I would think a lot higher of him as a Beach Boy. For me what he did from 65-71 is cool. What he's done from 1978 since is well....... He added to the schlock oldies vibe. I don't like his spolied rich kid attitude either, but at other times he seems friendly. Much weirder then Brian I think. IMHO Ricky and Blondie were a lot more interesting.

I don't like his thinking of the Beach Boys as "work". Brian, Al and Mike love (haha Mike Love  ;D)  that group beacause it's kinda like their baby. Okay Bruce didn't start the group but he's been with them for so long that I think it should be more than "work"

So true. a 1990 interview with Bruce had him saying one min that Brian was Rachmananoff  and when asked a min later if he owns the Beach Boys records in his collection he spat out why would he want that crap!

I posted something like this on a previous thread (I think I was blasting Al Jardine at the time), but no matter which Beach Boy is being interviewed, you can count on some strange or bizarre quote.

It's probably a combination of getting flustered and/or the honest truth leaking out.

Proably the latter.

Bruce is kind of the Dick Cheney of the Beach Boys: he nominated himself for the job after an "exhaustive search", and he's really in it just to make a buck. 

Whatever else Bruce is "in it" for, it sure isn't just for the $$$. Aside from the royalties for "I Write the Songs" (six figure check twice a year), his adoptive father was a VP in the Rexall drug company. Bruce isn't hurting for cash.

Bruce is credited in the liner notes for Holland, I think he contributed vocals for the tag of Leaving This Town and someone mentioned Sail On Sailor and California, Bruce also appeared on 15 Big Ones singing backup and playing piano on tracks like Blueberry Hill and Just Once In My Life and he was on Love You, so it's like he never really left the band between 72-79.

I think the live shows changed radically when he left in 72. Also he didn't need the money per se, but I think that is still what drives him.

I've read - possibly here - that the group tried to replace him with Billy Hinsche around 1969.  Does anyone know the full story - or maybe I should ask if anyone is prepared to tell the full story?

I'd assumed that he was a little tired of some of the excesses going on and had perhaps made his feelings known.

Exactly why did he leave? I know the story is that he objected to the way BW was made to seem present when he wasn't there all the time, but I've also heard it suggested that the 'hipper' element (Carl, Dennis and Reilley) thought he was square and wanted him out, but if that was the case, why did they have him back to sing on tracks on CATP and Holland - not to mention use tracks he sang on for the concert album?  If he was so unhip for Dennis, why use him on POB (Well, yeah, he could sing... ).  If Carl, Dennis and Reilley had so much power, why not step in and defend Blondie when he had his altercation with the Lovester....?  Why leave at a time when your songs were being given a platform for your songs and when the band was back in critical fashion and the concerts were taking off? 

I have heard that many people who were not big into TM were fired at this time. Desper and Bruce among them.

I'll figure out how to use this "Quote" thing yet.  Maybe in time to comment on the release of Mike's fifth album or even Al's first.

[quote author=NHC link=topic=2278.msg45089#msg45089 date=1152627006]
I'll figure out how to use this "Quote" thing yet.  Maybe in time to comment on the release of Mike's fifth album or even Al's first.
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Then what's his beef with Chaplin and Fataar - why doesn't he consider them Beach Boys?

Because B & R never played on any big hits. The lack of acknowledgement toward David was criminal when you consider the part he had in their legacy. He played on every album up to LDC so therefore he's on every big hit single up to In My Room. Chaplin and Fataar's BB batting average wasn't that good.

Having said that, I loved the Flame's album.

See, the problem with that logic is that they were an integral part of the band during the time they were there; not just playing, but singing, writing, and producing.

Personally, I think of other, more sinister reasons why BRI doesn't consider them Beach Boys, but I'm not going to go there.

David was practically a founding member of the band, something I suspect Stebbins's book will comfirm. 

Marks was there during their first era of sucess. Bruce was there the longest. Glen was certainly the most sucessful on his own. Yet R&B are much more musically vital to me. Their singing producing and performance added so much to the band. Bruce played his role and so did David. This is merely based on my preferences musically.