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Title: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: CenturyDeprived on August 05, 2015, 08:51:33 PM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?
I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Rocky on August 05, 2015, 11:17:50 PM mmmm it's an interesting thought. We know that by 1976 the Boys were comfortable talking about some of their troubles with Murray in the 'Good Vibrations' TV special, but was there word on the street before that? I'm sure there are some very smart smiley smilers here who can shed more light...
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 06, 2015, 12:15:54 AM The 1971 Rolling Stone 2-parter by Tom Nolan opened that particular can of worms. And, ah, several others.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on August 06, 2015, 07:31:36 PM Interesting question! I was born in 1977, so I have always wondered how much the general public was aware of back then that is common knowledge today!
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Komera on August 07, 2015, 09:44:09 PM There's at least one radio interview on YouTube (I've got it bookmarked, but I can't tell which bookmark it is since most of the bookmarks in Interview>Brian were labeled things like "Brian Wilson Interview <insert year here>"). I believe it was in the 70s. When the subject of Murry came up, I noticed Brian's very thorough answers suddenly became, "He... well... you know." He was making it sound like Murry was just like any other parent: a pop on the bottom when the kids were really asking for it and the rest of the time everything was picture perfect. But if you already know Murry was heavy handed, Brian's "... well... you know." sounds quite a bit more like a detour sign.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Junkstar on October 14, 2015, 04:36:05 PM Chuck Britz is quoted in the Murry Wikipedia entry speaking favorably of Murry. Kind of what any of us would expect, that he was a driving force and helped keep the trains running. You have to remember that Murry had a string of singles released pre-BB's that he wrote. He had a bit of industry knowledge and likely used it as best he could to get the guys off the ground. Brian also cites Murry as a talented songwriter, although that may be a bit of a stretch in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Smilin Ed H on October 15, 2015, 09:28:51 AM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. (http://www.thesnipenews.com/thegutter/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Joe-Jackson.jpg) Leave me out of it! Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Smile4ever on October 15, 2015, 09:39:56 AM This is a very interesting question! I can't contribute but look forward to hearing more insight.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 15, 2015, 10:09:44 AM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Leave me out of it! Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Lee Marshall on October 15, 2015, 01:47:10 PM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Leave me out of it! You, of course, aren't serious Emily? Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat? 'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it. I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then. And the Beach Boys doing it? Way, WAY odd. I mean like hello!!!! And then there's 'In My Room'. Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics? It was scary. He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer. It was ODDDDDD. There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64. I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light. We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers? Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!! Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Smilin Ed H on October 15, 2015, 02:17:37 PM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Leave me out of it! You, of course, aren't serious Emily? Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat? 'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it. I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then. And the Beach Boys doing it? Way, WAY odd. I mean like hello!!!! And then there's 'In My Room'. Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics? It was scary. He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer. It was ODDDDDD. There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64. I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light. We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers? Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!! Jest foolin'. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Lee Marshall on October 15, 2015, 02:25:37 PM Ya...I KNOW you were Ed...But Emily? I'm not so sure??? Joe King rules.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 15, 2015, 02:40:56 PM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Leave me out of it! You, of course, aren't serious Emily? Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat? 'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it. I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then. And the Beach Boys doing it? Way, WAY odd. I mean like hello!!!! And then there's 'In My Room'. Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics? It was scary. He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer. It was ODDDDDD. There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64. I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light. We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers? Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!! I am among the many who are baffled why so many people give Murry Wilson a pass because, "hey, would we have Surfin' USA without him?" I am completely comfortable passing a negative judgment on Murry Wilson's parenting. Edited to add: perhaps I would've been more successful if I left the photo of Joe Jackson in the post, but I thought that I'd be taking up too much space if I did that. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: chaki on October 15, 2015, 03:08:29 PM the Gaines book claims that dudes at Capitol hated dealing with him and The Marks' really hated his guts.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Debbie KL on October 15, 2015, 03:15:51 PM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Leave me out of it! You, of course, aren't serious Emily? Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat? 'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it. I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then. And the Beach Boys doing it? Way, WAY odd. I mean like hello!!!! And then there's 'In My Room'. Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics? It was scary. He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer. It was ODDDDDD. There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64. I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light. We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers? Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!! I am among the many who are baffled why so many people give Murry Wilson a pass because, "hey, would we have Surfin' USA without him?" I am completely comfortable passing a negative judgment on Murry Wilson's parenting. Edited to add: perhaps I would've been more successful if I left the photo of Joe Jackson in the post, but I thought that I'd be taking up too much space if I did that. Emily - I got the joke - you're clearly not a fool! But I guess it's good that it's been clarified... The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly. How tragic for Audree and the kids. His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Lee Marshall on October 15, 2015, 05:28:38 PM Glad to see you know that there are 2 Joe's Emily. Thought so but I just wanted to check 'cause we don't really know each other. A ;) might have helped.
Debbie...yes that was a style for parenting back in the day [and I while do believe that kids HAVE to know that there are real consequences for their actions because, ultimately, THAT is life] but there is a difference between a spanking and being 'tenderized' like pieces of meat. And there's a difference between a no nonsense parent and a flat out crazed bully who was quite clearly extremely sick. Wasn't there a story in one of the Jon Stebbins books about 'someone' maybe from across the road threatening Murry with a little of his own 'medicine' if he didn't cease and desist from pounding on the boys? Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 15, 2015, 07:13:47 PM Glad to see you know that there are 2 Joe's Emily. Thought so but I just wanted to check 'cause we don't really know each other. A ;) might have helped. I'm an experienced message board reader but a fairly inexperienced poster. I have much to learn about how to make what I write read the way I intend it to sound and yes, maybe I should make emojis my friends. Debbie...yes that was a style for parenting back in the day [and I while do believe that kids HAVE to know that there are real consequences for their actions because, ultimately, THAT is life] but there is a difference between a spanking and being 'tenderized' like pieces of meat. And there's a difference between a no nonsense parent and a flat out crazed bully who was quite clearly extremely sick. Wasn't there a story in one of the Jon Stebbins books about 'someone' maybe from across the road threatening Murry with a little of his own 'medicine' if he didn't cease and desist from pounding on the boys? Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 15, 2015, 07:25:03 PM Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware? I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills. Leave me out of it! You, of course, aren't serious Emily? Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat? 'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it. I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then. And the Beach Boys doing it? Way, WAY odd. I mean like hello!!!! And then there's 'In My Room'. Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics? It was scary. He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer. It was ODDDDDD. There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64. I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light. We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers? Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!! I am among the many who are baffled why so many people give Murry Wilson a pass because, "hey, would we have Surfin' USA without him?" I am completely comfortable passing a negative judgment on Murry Wilson's parenting. Edited to add: perhaps I would've been more successful if I left the photo of Joe Jackson in the post, but I thought that I'd be taking up too much space if I did that. Emily - I got the joke - you're clearly not a fool! But I guess it's good that it's been clarified... The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly. How tragic for Audree and the kids. His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly. Regarding Murry, I get that spanking was more accepted, but some of the stories of Murry Wilson are beyond the pale. before that 1965 letter he wrote to Brian was available, I found some of the reported Murry stories hard to believe, but i'd believe almost anything is possible from someone narcissistic, aggressive, egocentric and manipulative enough to write that letter. I know I should try to see the good in everyone but I really find it hard in this case. Particularly the Wilson brothers all seem (though, honestly, how would I know? I know nothing really) to have lacked effective psychological defense mechanisms. They just seemed to have been really vulnerable and it seems like their father should've been helping them build confidence instead of constantly tearing it down. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Lee Marshall on October 15, 2015, 07:33:54 PM From several of your previous posts here...you struck me as a sensitive and sensible person. That has been confirmed. :hat
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 15, 2015, 07:55:23 PM From several of your previous posts here...you struck me as a sensitive and sensible person. That has been confirmed. :hat If that was addressed to me, thank you. I'm flattered. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 16, 2015, 07:23:04 AM The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly. How tragic for Audree and the kids. His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly. Bad as Murry was - and he was an abusive father, even by the standards of the day - by all accounts his father was far, far worse. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: 37!ws on October 16, 2015, 08:56:00 AM Murry, Joe Jackson, Bud Cowsill...makes me wonder where it ends...
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Mike's Beard on October 16, 2015, 08:58:24 AM Murry, Joe Jackson, Bud Cowsill...makes me wonder where it ends... Joe Jackson seemed to be the worst of a bad bunch, that guy had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: PhilSpectre on October 16, 2015, 11:09:42 AM The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly. How tragic for Audree and the kids. His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly. Bad as Murry was - and he was an abusive father, even by the standards of the day - by all accounts his father was far, far worse. Which would explain a great deal. Personally, armed with only my Beach Boy 'book learning' and personal life experience to draw on, I've come to think that Murry (like his nephew Mike Love) actually did a lot of good early in the group's career and generally meant well for his boys, but he was his own worst enemy in terms of many of his personal interactions and just had the knack of coming off like a jerk to other people, especially family, no matter how benevolent his intentions. This is probably at least in part because, if his dad (Buddy Wilson IIRC) wasn't a proper role model, little wonder Murry didn't make a good one. It's often the fierce disciplinarian traits that get passed onto sons who have kids from abusive fathers. It's no excuse for Murry's apparently unpleasant behaviour to his sons, but as an adult, one can see that the guy was probably emotionally crippled and scared inside of losing control of his family, and had a crap idea of how to be a father because his dad was a crap father, and probably back it goes through generations ... Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 16, 2015, 11:50:04 AM I guess we perceive the situation differently. It happens.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Amanda Hart on October 16, 2015, 12:07:15 PM Is abuse apologism as rampant in general society as it is among Beach Boys fans? I don't think anyone is trying to apologize away Murry's abuse; but rather trying to paint a realistic picture of a person to illustrate how he was able to be both a physically and emotionally abusive father and also loving, caring and this sons' biggest fan. He clearly was all of those things at once and learning about how and why can be one way to stop the cycle of abuse from continuing from generation to generation. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Lee Marshall on October 16, 2015, 12:14:24 PM I don't think that describes Murry. The Beach Boys made it because of Murry. They'd have been nothing w/o his guidance and music biz knowhow. He MADE them and any degree of talent that either Brian or Carl had they got entirely from Murry. Dennis got none because Dennis was utterly stupid and a lost cause...A veritable waste of time.
Audree consumed ever-so-many beverages in an effort to make Murry's caring, loving nature and the hero-worship of the group stop. [at least temporarily] He was over the top with his effusive wonderfulness. Murry cared soley about Murry. 'IT' was ALL about Murry. Murry's lucky to have lived as long as he did. REALLY lucky. Murry, Mike and then Gene...Brian's ship had surely come in. :o ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh ya...and when he literally sold Brian out...'cause Murry KNEW that the gravy train had left the station and that the sale of Sea of Tunes was a wise thing to do...THAT demonstarted entirely what a peach of a dad he was[N'T] Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 16, 2015, 12:31:37 PM Wise words Lee! :afro
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Amanda Hart on October 16, 2015, 12:49:19 PM Over the top sarcasm aside, I honestly believe Murry did think he was helping his kids. He was a huge narcissist and his thinking was probably along the lines of "I'm a strong man, because my father pushed me, if I want my boys to be strong like me, I need to push them". Obviously he was horribly misguided, and sometimes did make selfish decisions, but he was a guy who thought he had all the answers and tried to force his will on his kids because he believed that was what was best for them.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Lee Marshall on October 16, 2015, 01:35:37 PM I guess you 'might' be right partly Amanda. Murry may have 'thought', in his own unusual and convoluted way, that he was doing the right thing but he was a sicko.. He pounded on those boys like they were meat. He was both a bully and an incessant whiner...a close to constant cry baby who set the standard for wallowing at length in his own bed. Whoa, whoa poor poor pitiful me. You did this to ME. I got the short end of the stick. Triumphs were his alone. The man needed help and he was not able or qualified to be the man you appear to think he was.
Maybe he became the way he was due to the way he was handled as a child. Maybe Brian did too. I'm going to give Murry a failing grade on every count as a parent. Other than supplying a strong swimming sperm cell [and his interest in music...notice I didn't call it his love of music because Murry had no clue about how to love anything]...the guy was close to useless...a broken unit. I'd say that Brian and his brothers pretty much achieved what they did and honed their various talents in SPITE of him. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 16, 2015, 03:41:34 PM I gotta say, strong as Add Some's take is, it equals mine. I don't actually think it's hyperbolic at all. I think it's right on.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that the Wilson bros would not have been successful if they had been adopted at birth by a decent human. I also don't see any reason to interpret abuse as an expression of love. I read the letter, I heard the tape, I've read the interviews, I don't hear love there. I hear abuse. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 16, 2015, 04:02:13 PM Is abuse apologism as rampant in general society as it is among Beach Boys fans? I don't think anyone is trying to apologize away Murry's abuse; but rather trying to paint a realistic picture of a person to illustrate how he was able to be both a physically and emotionally abusive father and also loving, caring and this sons' biggest fan. He clearly was all of those things at once and learning about how and why can be one way to stop the cycle of abuse from continuing from generation to generation. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 16, 2015, 04:09:14 PM David Leaf, I think in his book, made a very powerful, and tragic, observation. He wrote (I paraphrase slightly), "Brian wrote music to make himself feel better: imagine how bad he must have been feeling to compose such powerful songs".
Not defending him at all, but Murry's notions concerning parenting had to be irrevocably coloured by his having to pull his drunken father off of his mother to stop him beating her, have a stand up fist fight with him and throw him out of the house. Totally unconnected, but I've always wondered - has anyone ever seen a photo of Murry post 1967 ? Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Amanda Hart on October 18, 2015, 02:52:38 PM Not defending him at all, but Murry's notions concerning parenting had to be irrevocably coloured by his having to pull his drunken father off of his mother to stop him beating her, have a stand up fist fight with him and throw him out of the house. I'm not defending his actions either; there's no situation where hitting anyone, especially a child, is defensible. I think you can actually liken this situation to Adrian Peterson's from last year. Peterson did not think he was abusing his child, he thought he was being a good father by physically disciplining his son in a way that would teach him a lesson and toughen him up. Most people that have been abused carry that to their children because that's how they were raised and they truly believe they turned out to be the person they are because of that style of parenting and want to be that type of parent. Outside of disciplinary issues, parent to child abuse typically stems from feelings or frustration or loss of control. It's not excusable, but it's explainable, and if we can explain why a person like Murry Wilson parented the way he did, we can educate people and give them the tools they need to avoid abuse in the future. As far as this discussion, I don't think Add Some, Emily and I are ever going to see it eye to eye, because I really do think Murry's abuse came from a place of frustration when he felt like he was losing control of his sons and extremely misguided attempts to toughen them up. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Komera on October 18, 2015, 06:19:19 PM I might as well throw in another two bits.
Murry's idea of parenting was always skewed, and his letter to Brian (which surely he was drunk when he dictated that load, because there were clearly no filters turned on between his brain and mouth) demonstrates just how badly skewed he was. It is pretty sad to think that he saw Audree's love for the three kids as proof that she no longer loved him. Reading between the lines, he was clearly lonely and hungry for love, and his attempt to shake Brian's nerves and get the old Brian back was to try and get Brian's love. The thought was always doomed to failure because what Murry most wanted in a son was a clone of himself, someone who thought identically to himself. Someone who would forge success through pure hard work and loneliness. Someone just as lonely as he was. But at least the three brothers knew Murry did love them. That is the small gem that can be taken. A parent trying to turn a kid into a clone is a far better parent than one whose love is conditional, as Grandpa Wilson's was. I'm not excusing Murry, though. He did exactly what a lot of abusive parents wind up doing; he emotionally disarmed his kids, made them incapable of withstanding the world. Only certain kind of people could have taken Murry's parenting and come out stronger. Alas, if only Murry had any idea that his attempt to make his kids stronger would have the opposite effect. But of course if he could fathom that, he wouldn't BE Murry. This comes courtesy of my husband, who as a child suffered at the hands of his step-father. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Douchepool on October 18, 2015, 07:14:52 PM That was an excellent post, Komera. Well said.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 18, 2015, 08:18:03 PM I withdraw.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: rasmus skotte on October 19, 2015, 01:58:37 AM > There once came one 'Gage' from 'KANtucket'
This 'Old Man' whom 'Douglas' was 'Bugged At' Gage's boys got a scare... each time HE made them stare as he plucked out his glass eye from sucket!< Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Amanda Hart on October 19, 2015, 07:25:08 AM I might as well throw in another two bits. Murry's idea of parenting was always skewed, and his letter to Brian (which surely he was drunk when he dictated that load, because there were clearly no filters turned on between his brain and mouth) demonstrates just how badly skewed he was. It is pretty sad to think that he saw Audree's love for the three kids as proof that she no longer loved him. Reading between the lines, he was clearly lonely and hungry for love, and his attempt to shake Brian's nerves and get the old Brian back was to try and get Brian's love. The thought was always doomed to failure because what Murry most wanted in a son was a clone of himself, someone who thought identically to himself. Someone who would forge success through pure hard work and loneliness. Someone just as lonely as he was. But at least the three brothers knew Murry did love them. That is the small gem that can be taken. A parent trying to turn a kid into a clone is a far better parent than one whose love is conditional, as Grandpa Wilson's was. I'm not excusing Murry, though. He did exactly what a lot of abusive parents wind up doing; he emotionally disarmed his kids, made them incapable of withstanding the world. Only certain kind of people could have taken Murry's parenting and come out stronger. Alas, if only Murry had any idea that his attempt to make his kids stronger would have the opposite effect. But of course if he could fathom that, he wouldn't BE Murry. This comes courtesy of my husband, who as a child suffered at the hands of his step-father. ^This. Maybe it just takes someone whose been through it to understand, I'm sorry to hear that your husband had that difficulty though. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 19, 2015, 08:25:00 AM I might as well throw in another two bits. Murry's idea of parenting was always skewed, and his letter to Brian (which surely he was drunk when he dictated that load, because there were clearly no filters turned on between his brain and mouth) demonstrates just how badly skewed he was. It is pretty sad to think that he saw Audree's love for the three kids as proof that she no longer loved him. Reading between the lines, he was clearly lonely and hungry for love, and his attempt to shake Brian's nerves and get the old Brian back was to try and get Brian's love. The thought was always doomed to failure because what Murry most wanted in a son was a clone of himself, someone who thought identically to himself. Someone who would forge success through pure hard work and loneliness. Someone just as lonely as he was. But at least the three brothers knew Murry did love them. That is the small gem that can be taken. A parent trying to turn a kid into a clone is a far better parent than one whose love is conditional, as Grandpa Wilson's was. I'm not excusing Murry, though. He did exactly what a lot of abusive parents wind up doing; he emotionally disarmed his kids, made them incapable of withstanding the world. Only certain kind of people could have taken Murry's parenting and come out stronger. Alas, if only Murry had any idea that his attempt to make his kids stronger would have the opposite effect. But of course if he could fathom that, he wouldn't BE Murry. This comes courtesy of my husband, who as a child suffered at the hands of his step-father. ^This. Maybe it just takes someone whose been through it to understand, I'm sorry to hear that your husband had that difficulty though. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Amanda Hart on October 20, 2015, 12:04:59 PM I said "I withdraw" because I'm not interested in arguing, but I have to say that it's pretty arrogant to assume that if someone disagrees with you it means they "haven't been through it" so don't "understand". Trust me, people can be abused and NOT end up with a wistful affection and empathy for the abuser. I wasn't trying to be alienating, and that probably was a little out of bounds for me to post. Maybe I'm not getting my point across well, but it's not some sort of wistful affection, I just wanted to shed light on this not being such a black and white issue. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Emily on October 20, 2015, 04:05:22 PM I said "I withdraw" because I'm not interested in arguing, but I have to say that it's pretty arrogant to assume that if someone disagrees with you it means they "haven't been through it" so don't "understand". Trust me, people can be abused and NOT end up with a wistful affection and empathy for the abuser. I wasn't trying to be alienating, and that probably was a little out of bounds for me to post. Maybe I'm not getting my point across well, but it's not some sort of wistful affection, I just wanted to shed light on this not being such a black and white issue. Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Junkstar on October 22, 2015, 04:28:37 PM Not to make any excuses for Murry and his abusive nature, but in the new Carl book the author suggests that Murry suffered at the hands of his own father quite badly. Might explain a few things.
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Ian on October 22, 2015, 04:56:39 PM That info is not new to that book, Timothy white discussed murry's family history at length in his book
Title: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Vernon Surfer on October 22, 2015, 09:38:03 PM That info is not new to that book, Timothy white discussed murry's family history at length in his book The author of the Carl book does quote the previous source in his book. I just started reading it this afternoonTitle: Re: How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime? Post by: Junkstar on October 23, 2015, 09:30:45 AM I wasn't claiming this was new info. No slight to White. Just trying to ref something recent.
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