The Smiley Smile Message Board

I am wondering what the folks from the wrecking crew are doing these days.  It seems that every time the subject of a Beach Boys/Brian reunion comes up, someone brings up the wrecking crew.  I've seen all of the documentaries, and I am wondering if some of these people even play anymore.  Hal is looking pretty old, and Carole is shown playing on a few of the docs, and she appeared to be using sheet music to play the Good Vibrations bassline.  After all, these guys (and gals) are, for the most part, older than the Beach Boys.  So, are any of the folks still involved in the recording industry?

Sadly, some of the main players are no longer with us:

Steve Douglas, April 19th 1993
Tommy Tedesco, November 10th 1997
Barney Kessell, May 6th 2004

and an honorary member:

Chuck Britz, August 21st 2000

Stop calling those session musicians "Wrecking Crew"! Mrs. Kaye once nearly flipped out after I mentioned this name.


:D

Carol Kaye plays some bass on Frank Black's new album "Fast Man / Raider Man". She appears to have been the most active in session work of the original "crew" (or whatever you want to call them) over the past few years, although I still spot harmonica work from Tommy Morgan now and again.

Moreover, why has no one reassembled the remaining session musicians since they are all still players??
When you're their age, the ego-trip has long since left the building and one's just happy to be playing.
Hmmm.

Lyle Ritz:  Now a ukelele master living in washington state, I think.
Al De Lory:  Still around LA, aldelory.com
Don Randi:  Owns the "baked potato" jazz club in LA.
Earl Palmer:  Still going at 94 years old.
Chuck Berghofer:  Still active as a bass player in LA.
Billy Strange:  Living in Nashville, getting up there in age, but maintains a website, billystrangemusic.com
Glen Campbell and Leon Russell:  still solid solo acts, if not tipsy ones...
Bill Pitman is still alive
Frank Capp is still around, I believe Julius Wechter is as well.
Joe Osborn is still a popular bass player in Nashville
Not sure what Larry Knechtel is up to.
Jim Gordon is in jail for killing his mother.

A few more that passed away:

Jay Migliori
Ray Pohlman

I'm afraid Julius Wechter passed away in 1999.

Here's what Frank Capp's up to this summer:
http://www.ofam.org/festival.aspx?artist=9&series=1054

See... could still assemble a pretty great group of oldies but goodies to sessionize! Would that be the greatest frickin' thing or what?!! If I had the loot, I'd try to do it. If pulled together correctly and produced well, imagine what this could produce!

What's the story on Brad Elliott?  Why is he a "criminal?"

ever send him any money??     :lol

Uh... no.  Why would I?

Seriously.  I know the name, but almost nothing about him.

Interesting... I don't recall ever printing Carol's SS number (which I fully agree was an incredibly stupid thing to do), and I'm well aware of the handful of errors in my books, and strove to correct them for the 2nd edition. My book is so totally 'off the wall' as to actually dare to list all the songs recorded by the Beach Boys - I mean, just how left-field is that ? I'm in awe at myself.

And as for "wrecking our lives and our credit", well, two words for you, Carol:

James Jamerson.

Whatever else I may have done in my documenting of the life and music of Brian Wilson & The Beach Boys, I have never stooped so low as to claim someone else's work as my own. I used to be angry at Carol for this kind of thing, but now... I'm just sad and sorry for her - if I'm the best target she can find to flail away at, well...

Jasper, just for my own curiosity, what was replaced by the ##### ? PM me if it's not suitable for public dispersal. 

When was Brad sued by Brian? I mean, he IS a crook, but this is the first I've heard of it.

Thumbnail history - excellent BB historian & researcher of the late 70s/early 80s and onwards, who engineered his own downfall by:

1. Announcing BB-related projects, getting fans to fund them but not finishing the project and, in several cases, not refunding the monies advanced. In one case, the sum is very substantial.

2. Bootlegging tapes given to him by other fans on the understanding they would not be copied: someone had the smarts to put a tracker on some of them and surprise ! it turned up on an 80's vinyl boot.

Last heard of in early 2004 when the reprints of his excellent 1961-1981 discography were published. I understand quite a few people would be very happy to know where he is now.

Just realised exactly what she's saying. Wonder if she's familiar with the laws of libel and slander ?

If Carol can produce a single instance where I've printed her SS number, or any other form of ID, or, as she stated on the old Blue Board, prove I've stolen any of the AFM sheets that I've quoted from in the past, then I will apologise handsomely. Otherwise, I suggest she retracts that statement.

No kidding.  You *do* have legal recourse, Andrew, esp. accusing you of stealing the AFM sheets, provided you have documentation.

 If so, thumbs way the hell up for you.

 
Is that why Brian supposedly sued Elliot?

Carol seems to be laboring under the delusion that every single copy, and carbon, of the AFM sheets is safely under lock & key in the archives of Local 47, therefore when one of them is quoted from by the likes of me, I must have broken in and stolen it. She keeps banging on about how only Russ Wapensky is the only person with legal access to the sheets (usually followed by how his forthcoming book would prove her Motown claims - of course, we now know that the book isn't forthcoming anymore, at least from Greentree).

Of course, there are copies of these sheets all over the place, and here's something that might give her pause for thought - I do not own one single original AFM contract. Anything I've quoted from have been either given to me as photocopies (in some cases by the artists involved - maybe they should also "be held criminally liable for the theft and criminal uses of printing of our ID, wrecking our lives and our credit", no ?) or printed in books or magazines... and in no instance have I quoted Social Security numbers. In fact, as the people who were with me at the time will tell you, when I opened up my copy of Keith Badman's book on the day I bought it, at the RFH, summer 2004, when I saw that the SS numbers were included, did I cackle with delight and say "Oh, wow, we've got Carol's SS numbers, now we can have some fun with the old bat !!" Nope, I turned to them and said "Oh Jeez, Carol's gonna pitch a blue fit over this and I don't blame her one little bit".

Apologies for boring the ass off of anyone who could care less about this minor spat, but the reasons she's on the outs with me are instructive. On the old BlueBoard - when it really was blue - she was a frequent and welcome visitor. One day someone asked her about Ray Pohlman's contribution to one session ("GOK" I think), and she came right back and said he wasn't there. Now, this stopped me in my tracks because:

1. He's listed on the AFM sheet...
2. He's listed in the Sessions box booklet...
3. He's referred to by name on the relevant session on the CD.

So I gently pointed out that she was mistaken... got a torrent of abuse. Others pointed out she was mistaken. Same result. I quoted the AFM sheet, and was accused of stealing it. She then fell back on the Wapensky defence, saying she'd get in touch with him and he'd dig out the AFM contract and prove me wrong. I politely pointed out that, as he'd be quoting the exact same sheet as I was, I rather doubted this would happen (and oddly enough, she never did come up with the goods). At which point she flounced off the Bloo, never to return. In the greater scheme of things, of course it's all very petty and certainly not on a par with her Jamerson claims, but it does seem to illustrate a basic truth: Carol is never wrong because she was there.

No, that happened back in 1983 (the first Smile vinyl boot) when Brian could have cared less about anything. The suing story came about in the early 2000s: I'm not entirely sure of the specifics, and thus won't quote anyone directly, but there are those at Capitol who have their suspicions concerning the origins of the two Deep Sea Treasures boots. Maybe it's just coincidence, but around this time Elliott pulled back from doing the liners of the 1970-1985 2fer reissues.

I REMEMBER that! You posted about it somewhere, I think it was either Susan's board or the Blue Board, and you kinda bashed Badman (and rightfully so).

Carol is full of sh*t. I remember talking to her about my own music, and wanted to send her a copy, just to see what she thought of it. Well, she kind of took a haughty tone, saying something along the lines of "My time is very valuable...are you aware I used to charge people for the opportunity for them to have me critique their music?" WTF?!

You'd have to pay me to listen to your music too... ;)

jk!

sorry, nothing to see here.

Anyone reading this thread just had to know it would get to the "Carol issue."  And stay there.  Has anyone had a consistently positive interaction with her?  I think I posted once on her board years ago, and was attacked by her in a private e-mail.  She took my post off her board and deleted my account.  I blocked her e-mail address on my e-mail account, lest she ever try to e-mail me again.  Not that she would, but I just didn't want her around.  I've had spam that's more welcome in my inbox.  I think she's never grasped Netiquette, she'd be better off not being on the Internet, as many older people avoid it.

Oh, but she is a great bass player, on the things she's played on, including the Beach Boys.   

Thanks! I have been wanting to see an update like this.  What about Hal? (I can't believe he hasn't been mentioned).  I think I read somewhere he is living  out in the high desert.  Is he still working as a musician?   

FWIW,  and just for balance, I've had very pleasant and helpful interaction with Carole.

Hal lives in Palm Springs, I believe. His website is currently undergoing maintainence. Don't think he's working too much as a musician - I recall seeing an interview in the last few years where he said he'd sold his drums because he wasn't getting the work due of the use of computers in studios.

Did I just hallucinate this?

Jim Gordon (musician)
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James Beck Gordon (born 1945), known as Jim Gordon, is an American-born musician active during the 1960s and 1970s.

Gordon began his career as a session drummer in Los Angeles. During this period, he performed on many famous recordings including Gene Clark with The Gosdin Brothers by Gene Clark and The Notorious Byrd Brothers by The Byrds; he remained an in-demand session drummer well into the seventies.

In 1969 and 1970, he toured as part of the backing band for the group Delaney & Bonnie, which at the time included Eric Clapton. Clapton subsequently took over the group's rhythm section — Gordon, bassist Carl Radle and keyboardist-singer-songwriter Bobby Whitlock. They formed a new band which was eventually called Derek & The Dominos. Gordon played on the group's acclaimed 1970 double album Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs and composed and played the elegiac piano coda for the title track, Layla. He also toured with the band on a subsequent U.S. tour, but the group split in spring 1971 before having completed the recording of their second LP.

In 1970, Gordon was part of Joe Cocker's famous Mad Dogs and Englishmen tour. In 1971, he toured with Traffic, appearing on two albums with them, including The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys. Later in 1972, Gordon was part of Frank Zappa's 20-piece "Grand Wazoo" big band tour, and the subsesequent 10-piece "Petit Wazoo" band. Perhaps his most well-known recording with Zappa was the title track of the 1974 LP Apostrophe ('), a jam with Zappa and Tony Duran on guitar and Jack Bruce on bass, for which both Bruce and Gordon received a writing credit. He worked with Chris Hillman again when he was the drummer in the Souther Hillman Furay Band from 1973 to 1975.

During his career, Gordon played with (or for) a long list of top musicians and producers, including Phil Spector, The Beach Boys, Jackson Browne, The Byrds, The Carpenters, Alice Cooper, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, John Denver, Neil Diamond, George Harrison, Dr John, Carole King, John Lennon, The Monkees, Linda Ronstadt, Leon Russell, Glen Campbell (Wichita Lineman), Carly Simon ("You're So Vain"), Steely Dan, Gordon Lightfoot and Traffic.

In the late 1970s, Gordon complained of hearing voices in his head. He was later diagnosed with acute paranoid schizophrenia, and in 1981 it ended his music career.

In 1983, Gordon was convicted of murdering his mother and was sentenced to 16 years to life in prison. He currently spends most of his time at Atascadero State Hospital.

The American metal band MOD even wrote a song about him:

Jim Gorden, the man who was insane
Jim Gorden, had Glaxo in his brain

Jim Gordon was insane
He took his mother's life
He used the hammer first
So she wouldn't feel the knife
He's gone insane
He's lost his mind

The voices in his head
Prove the bastard nuts
He bashed his mother's head in
Because she killed Paul Lynd

He couldn't play the drums
Cause people moved his hand
Was he just a mad man
We may never understand
He's gone insane
He's lost his mind

The voices in his head
Prove the bastard nuts
He bashed his mother's head in
Because she killed Paul Lynd

MOSH

Jim Gorden was insane
He took his mother's life
He used the hammer first
So she wouldn't feel the knife

He's gone insane, he's lost his mind
He couldn't play his drums
Cause people moved his hands
Was he just a mad man
We may never understand

What is Glaxo?

I think that's a reference to the pharmaceutical company.

I have my own Carol story.  One time someone posted on Usenet that Billy Strange was opening his website, and advertised it saying that Billy Strange played on many BB songs (true) including lead guitar on Surfin USA (I vehemently deny this).  I objected saying that all evidence did (and does) point to the four BBs playing the instruments.  This was forwarded over to Carol who posted a rebuke against me on her website (which the original poster gleefully posted on my Usenet post), basically accusing me of being a romantic fan who wished that his idols could play like they were supposed to.  She went on to basically say that Carl was incapable of playing SUSA in 1963 and made me sound like an idiot.  I posted a reply to her saying that if someone is documented as playing I will be happy to give them credit but there is no reason to think that Carl and Dave weren't the guitar players on SUSA, but of course that wasn't posted.

In addition to Jamerson, she also claims many Elvis tracks including Suspicious Minds, when according to session info Carol NEVER played on an Elvis session (the one she was booked for in 1968 was cancelled), and the Monkees' Last Train to Clarksville (when that was the Boyce/Hart regular set), and the Doors' first album (including Light My Fire).  THAT ought to set Andrew off again, Doors fan that he is....   :lol

She claimed the Doors didn't play on their albums  :lol, but didn't Larry Knechtel play bass on Light My Fire?

The Doors did use session bass players on their albums, but I doubt she was one of them.

I'm 99.9% certain she wasn't, considering she was performing on other bands' albums at that time. Of course, maybe she discovered the secret to being in 2 places at once. I mean, she is the great almighty Carol Kaye, you know.


Billy Strange himself said he didn't play on that track. Gee, I wonder who would be right on that one?

Listen to "Light My Fire".

You hear any bass guitar on it ?

Me neither.

The Doors used a session bass player after the first album, because the Fender Rhodes bass recorded like merda.

Re; "Surfin' USA", as with the Motown tracks, the concensus is that she played on A version of it (maybe the Hot Doggers) but not THE version of it. It's strange how she'll tout the AFM sheets as proof of who played on what, yet for such disputed tracks as "SUSA" and the Jamerson stuff, the contracts have no-one called Kaye on them.

Want to make one thing abundantly clear - I have the utmost respect for Carol's musical achievements in the 60s and 70s: they are substatial, hugely influential and irrefutable. But her attitude towards being questioned is deplorable, as is her habit of making personal attacks on her highly-moderated forum, where rebuttal, or even reply, is 99% of the time impossible. If anyone should doubt this, try registering and then raising the subject of either Jamerson, Slutsky, or simply mentioning my name. Her response is bordering on the irrational, the moreso considering her standing in the LA musical fraternity and my total lack of same. Simply, she isn't doing herself any favors.

With a couple of Doors' threads popping up on the various message boards, I dug out the James Riordan/Jerry Prochnicky book to re-read. They wrote this, regarding the first album:

"According to Rothchild the entire album was done on a four-track recorder, and for the most part, they only used three of those. He recorded bass and drums on one track, guitar and organ on another, and Morrison's vocals on the third, leaving the fourth track open for a few extras. Rothchild brought in an uncredited bass player named Larry Knechtel because he felt Ray's piano-bass sound lacked definition".

Bass guitar is credited on one track on The Doors - I forget which one, but it isn't "LMF".

There's a bass player named Harvey Brooks that did some Doors LPs as well, particularly Soft Parade.

Perhaps best known as the bass player in Electric Flag and similar 60's-70's jazzbluesrock ensembles.  Great jazz-tinged lines.  Check out "Harvey's Tune" with the Flag. In either Densmore's or Manzarek's book, one or the other or maybe both talk about the bass in the Doors.  Without looking, seems like Manzarek said he used the Rhodes for most of it in the studio, with limited actualbas guitar, but I may be wrong. Great band.  I wore out the record, a guitar, an electric organ, a drum set, half my friends, a sister and both parents in 1967 with that first one.

For a good while, Carol was very helpful to me, in my research on Jan Berry . . . and she provided me with some very useful commentary on Jan, and the business in general.

But I ran afoul of Carol when it came to our Jan Berry / Jan & Dean Tribute album . . . and the fact that we're basing our album directly upon my transcriptions of Jan Berry's original music scores (which are in my possession, as his authorized biographer . . . and yes, I can actually read these scores, as well).

While I thought Carol (as a champion of studiuo musicians) would be enthusiatic about this project, I was dead wrong. She accused me of trying to make money off Jan . . . and further stated that Jan had never written his own music scores . . . and that he didn't have those kinds of skills. And that, folks, is as far from the truth as you can get. I have Jan's personal and original music archive . . . his own handwritten scores, and the charts that were generated by copyists from those original scores. I also have Jan's official school (college) transcripts, and can cite the music theory classes he took (not to mention the lessons he took as a kid on piano and guitar).

It goes without saying that Jan Berry (and Brian Wilson) consulted and worked with other Hollywood arrangers (neither one of them was Mozart) . . . but Carol would hear none of the facts in the case. You can't have a debate and discuss facts with Carol, because she'll ban you from her board before any rational discussion can take place.

Carol even got me banned from Billy Strange's board . . . another guy who had previously been very helpful to me on Jan's behalf.

These are the pitfalls of doing this kind of research. You have to be prepared to cite chapter and verse . . . and so I showed both of them examples of Jan's original  scores . . . then POOF!! Account delete-age.

When this all went down, there was a very large thread on this board about it . . . but it disappeared when the board was reconfigured.

Nothing can take away from the history and fame of these great studio musicians. And it makes me sad . . . for guys like Jan . . . when those old associates want to denigrate and put them down erroneously . . . and without really knowing what they're saying.

They played on too many sessions. And like Carol says, they didn't care for rock 'n roll anyway. They were all Jazz people, right? . . . So there's no way that Carol's memory can keep up with so many sessions and artists after more than 40 years . . . even though she was "there" . . . in some cases.

Ask Hal Blaine about Jan's drum charts . . . which Hal often played in unison with Earl Palmer. Hal will tell you about them . . .

Mark A. Moore

It's kind of sad really.  There has to be an element of bitterness and resentment for being "used" on recordings and recieving one paycheck for it.  Session musicians have every right to seek credit and recognition for their work, but when there are such blatant examples of untruths, sometimes their memories and motives should be questioned. 

What I don't understand is why she would lie about session dates.  Isn't California Girls enough for her?

Oddly enough, when Robert Palmer died, I asked her about what he was like to work with. She claimed she never worked with him or even met the guy. I then informed her that I had a copy of his 1976 album "Some People Can Do What They Like" and she is listed as playing guitar. She admitted that was her, then proceeded to block my email address.

Morrison-era Doors studio bass players, corrections welcomed:

Strange Days - Doug Lubahn
Waiting For The Sun - Doug Lubahn, Kerry Magness, Leroy Vinegar
The Soft Parade - Doug Lubahn, Harvey Brooks
Morrison Hotel - Ray Neapolitan
L. A. Woman - Jerry Scheff