The Smiley Smile Message Board

One of my friends on Twitter is friends with the woman who portrayed Carol in L&M. Just tweeted this out:
@myfriendkatye: My wonderful, beautiful friend played Carol Kaye in the movie Love & Mercy. Carol Kaye called her a bimbo. Carol Kaye is a twat.

Someone's getting cranky in old age  ::)

Cmon. Carol, crotchety as we know she is, wasn't calling the actress a bimbo. She didn't like the portrayal of her in the movie. She is an advanced highly experienced musician and she objected to being shown as dumbfounded by bass concepts which were actually common place in jazz.

I can understand where CK is coming from on this one.

Carol's Facebook post (rant) which was subsequently deleted like a day or two later said she was 'portrayed as some bimbo'.  Her biggest gripe seemed to be about wearing a fire hat in the "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" session, she actually didn't wear a fire hat (the horror).

We discussed this a couple of weeks ago. Did she do it AGAIN? !

Well, it IS all about her after all, isn't it?

Good grief. And she's allegedly going to be contacting her lawyer now.

What makes it worse are her sheep who are all "YEAH!!! YOU TELL 'EM!!!" and are equally appalled at her being portrayed as a bimbo. Now...I've seen the movie three times so far...last time I especially paid close attention to her character to see what she means by this whole "bimbo" thing, and....really, what am I missing???

They wrote her as being dumbfounded at bass voicings which are pretty common. You can't see how she, as a professional musician, might find that a bit offensive?

Well, yeah, PT, you have a point; after all, it IS all about her, isn't it?

Carol's Twatters (as they are affectionately known) really are just forlorn sheep. "Yes" people all the way. and for what? to prop up a sadly delusional old screeching bat? I'm presuming a total IQ of the group of 100; the Bimbettes, there's a name...  
 Hard to understand how she could believe that the massive credentials of her entire career, teeter on  bit part  portrayal in L&M. Bimbo is a perfect description of her reaction to the film
 

Obviously not. I'm just saying that I can understand why it rankled her a bit. You know?

The point of the scene is to convey the musical intricacy of the music, not that Carol wasn't a knowledgeable musician. Cripes.

I understand that too.

My comment is directed at Carol. I agree with you pixeltwin - i might find it a little annoying if I were her. But she must realize why they wrote it like that

Love & Mercy clearly should have been all about how Brian Wilson was lost until Carol Kaye and Van Dyke Parks made him the genius musician he is today.  ;D

Yes. Same with Van. You'd think they cold make some concessions for the necessities of story telling. Ah well.

I note from her FB page she's writing a book. Hope she's got really, really good lawyers and a money tree in the back yard. She & Bernard Purdie should get together and swap notes.

That's because she instantly deletes anybody who does not toe the line.

Other ways of getting deleted from her FB page or banned from her website: mentioning any of the following...

James Jamerson
Allan Slutsky
The Wrecking Crew
Denny Tedesco
Torrentfreak

I deeply respect and admire her musical talents and stellar achievements (only a fool would deny those) - but as a person she's become increasingly deplorable. It's sad that she may end up being remembered more for being a deluded unpleasant old woman who has repeatedly lied about tracks it can be proven beyond question she never played on than for being not merely a stellar talent, but a female one in what was then almost exclusively a man's world. A true pioneer.

Well, if that was all she said, sure.  But she didn't.  Here's the whole rant for ya.  Defend if you like:

NOTICE ABOUT THE LOVE & MERCY BIOPIC.........I want to thank all my good Friends and Fans for being concerned about how I was portrayed in Brian Wilson biopic movie "Love And Mercy".....I know you know, it was a totally false personna. Thank-you for your feedback about it .....I'm writing about this to confirm you're all correct.....that portrayal was NOT ME at all, not even close....

I don't know where they got that idea of what I looked like (never wore a fire-hat like a bimbo NO), nor what I said which is completely made-up and false....(no I never said that) and the way I played? That, I was consulted on Skype by the actress about holding the pick but that she even got that wrong too. A minor thing, but tho't I'd mention it as it was the *only* time I was ever contacted. Proof that they knew how to contact me for the rest, but they chose NOT TO verify anything about me.

While yes, they got me wrong in this BioPic, they probably got a lot of other things wrong on other things and people too....however, the fact that I'm the *only woman Professional" widely known in the world for the 1,000s of big hits, movies, and TV-shows I've recorded, heralded as the Leader in Bass Education, most-endorsed Educator, working hard all my life building a huge career that no-one can even come close to doing man or woman....this film slanders me and speaks falsely about women Professionals in general, giving us all a black eye....I was the only "woman" in the Professional role in that film....and yes that made me angry not only for my Family's embarrassment, but also for ALL Top Women Professionals which it affects in all fields...You were correct, it was a slam against us all as you all perceived, yes.

Why they never consulted me, I'll never know...I'm very easy to contact, I'm in the Musicians Union Book. I will be speaking to an attorney soon about this.

Again, I and my Family totally thank you for your great supportive messages.....you know me, and know that was NOT me, and yes, they got me very wrong....... please continue to tell others, thank-you. I'm most-indebted to you for your caring, your support and most of all, letting others know the truth.....that it was a total embarrassment and an insult against all the fine women Professionals everywhere, Thank-You, your Friend, Carol Kaye

(cc: legal file)

Now, full disclosure: I know Teresa Cowles, the actress who played Carol Kaye, extremely well.  She has played with me for over 10 years.  But it's not the implied slight (which I accept was not meant personally, though as I will detail below, the patronization is totally unwarranted) that pisses me off; it's the egocentricity and self-aggrandizement of equating the concern of how her unhappiness with her portrayal somehow is a slight at women professionals everywhere.  A fire hat makes you look like a bimbo, but not the rest of your outfit (which is authentic to '60s stills)?  You've got a problem with how the pick is being held?  And this is a crisis of feminism because you're the "only woman professional" known for X, Y and Z?  

Let me tell y'all why this grates.  Teresa cared enough personally reach out to CK about pick technique because she was a finger player all her life.  She has four days to nail CK's particular style - the style she berates bass players from Gene Simmons on down about because they don't come up to her high technical standards - and didn't.  Would anybody else playing CK even bother, or even get close?  Of course not!  To bring up something so petty, even in terms of making a larger point about the film, is so churlish and clueless I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.

So let me say something about women "professionals" - as I've said, I've played with Teresa Cowles for 10 years, including on the Long Promised Road:  Songs of Dennis and Carl Wilson Live album.  She's also gigged with Al Jardine, The Honeys, Ben Vaughn, Michael des Barres, Jeremy Spencer of Fleetwood Mac, and Brian himself.  Is she as technically gifted as Carol Kaye?  Why no - as CK takes great pains to remind us, she is in a class by herself.  However, can she get a track cut in the studio just as fast as Carol?  Why yes she can, as I have cause to know because I've done dozens of sessions with her.  And she can go out and play that song live and sing a harmony a semitone above the note she's holding down on the bass, which I'm fairly sure CK cannot do.

I personally believe CK is unhappy with Teresa's portrayal because T came across as someone who is pleasant and easy to work with - which she is.  She also is tough as nails and chock full of integrity, as I can attest from having done many club tours with her.  She's as far from a bimbo as one can get.  But most importantly, she shows up for work, and gets the job done, and does not ask for nor receive special attention because she is female.  She is quite simply one of the band on equal terms.  

So I guess I'm offended because CK dares to equate her self-important, petty concerns with one minute of the film with the concerns of "women professionals" everywhere, because, you know, how dare she.  CK was a trailblazer and a fine bass player, no doubt, but Teresa Cowles in no way tarnishes that legacy.  She IS that fricking legacy.  Whining, padding your part, and trumpeting one's own accomplishments is not the mark of a "professional."  Showing up for work and doing your job is.  CK in her ranting does not represent women professionals.  Teresa Cowles does.  

Rant over.  But...God.  I really want to kick that lady in the ass.

This, by an order of magnitude slightly past infinite.

Sooo...how did CK feel about her portrayal in "An American Family"?  Did she complain about that, too?

Three points:

(1) Any attorney worth their salt that CK may consult will undoubtedly take one look at that film and say, "You gotta be kidding me. Where's the slander? Where's the malice? How did this film in any way damage your personal or professional reputation? Unless your name is Eugene E. Landy, go take a hike, granny." And if there's a lawyer dumb enough to take the case, any judge worth their salt would surely dismiss it on the same lack-of-malice grounds. Are Larry Levine's family likely to consult a lawyer because HE should have been depicted engineering the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "Good Vibrations" sessions instead of CK? Are Ray Pohlman's family likely to do so because CK is depicted playing Fender bass on "Good Vibrations" when it's been well-established that Ray, not CK, did so on the hit version? As others have pointed out, this film is not about them, and the details from those scenes are relatively minor in the broader context of the whole thing.

(2) The director and/or prop people who stuck a fire hat on TC's head were working from the well-established fact that musicians on that studio date wore fire helmets, purchased for them by Brian to enhance the sense of "scary fun" he wanted to capture during the "Fire" session. We have Brian on video talking about this, AND we have Jasper Dailey's photos from the session itself to prove this. So what if CK chose not to wear one? Were the director and prop people supposed to know that? And why would they bother asking CK if she wore one, when it can be proven that Brian and most of the musicians there did. Were they supposed to consult with all living participants in that session who weren't already seen in the session photos, to ask if they actually wore a fire helmet at that session? That would be ludicrous. AND the fact that many of the session participant did so hardly decreased their standing at all: CK is reacting as if she was depicted walking in off the street already wearing a stupid toy hat and therefore became a laughing stock to her peers - when nothing of the sort is true. In reality, it was Brian's idea, and a fine, fun one at that. Anybody watching the movie will doubtless come away with that impression!

(3) CK is definitely not the only woman professional depicted in the film...maybe the '60s scenes, but hello! Melinda Leadbetter 1980s, anyone?

She wrote:

"Tera Hendrickson, film star who portrayed me in 'American Family' 2-part TV Series about the Beach Boys. She's not only a terrific actress but is a fine bass player/singer too, lovely person who you see in many a movie, TV show and even in ads. Very classy lady!"

 working hard all my life building a huge career that no-one can even come close to doing man or woman.
 ::)
And people complain Mike likes to toot his own horn.

Her latest diatribe is really making me even reconsidering THIS much, to be honest.

A critically acclaimed movie that has all - note ALL - the fans in raptures, and all she can find to say is...

"I never dressed like that" (err... yes you did)

"I never wore a fire hat" (only got your word for that and even if you didn't... so what ?)

"She's holding the pick wrong" (really ? I mean... REALLY ??)

Can you imagine the shitstorm if she'd not been portrayed at all ? She'd self-combust.

Oh... wait... uh, for the DVD release, could we...  >:D

x1,000,000

Exactly.  Indeed, Elizabeth Banks performance in the movie has caused at least one reviewer to call L&M the feminist movie of the year.

The thing I keep coming back to about Carol Kaye and her screeds...I never would have thought any of those things about her character at all – until she mentioned them.  As Paul Dano's dialogue says, introducing Tony Asher's character to the musicians, "Tony Asher this is Hal Blaine, the greatest drummer working today.  And, you've never heard of him have you?  That's the secret, all these guys, Hal, Tommy, Carol, Earl – the whole band – their probably THE BEST in the business, but their studio musicians so nobody's ever heard of them.  It's crazy!"

Yep, real derogatory.

Great post! She and Parks are a pair.  This movie is a dramatization. A movie...based on actual events, and she isn't a principal player.  She is little more than an "extra."  It isn't her story. Nor Parks.  Those 60-ish clothes couldn't make Marilyn Monroe look like a bimbo.  The actual black and white session photos make her look "hotter" with her boots (Courreges, I think) than the costuming in the film.  Cute, but neither bimbo-ish.  How she makes that inference, is beyond me.

Carol Kaye did have a somewhat unique role as a female session musician with a bird's eye view of the process of making music in that era of huge creativity in a male-driven industry.  But, it was more the issue of "gender parity" alongside men, having a "seat at the table." And, not her musical genius.  That was Brian's job.  

Slander? Where is it? I'm not seeing it.  I found her character treated quite generously and had more lines than some of "The Beach Boys" characters.  She should have two words... "Thank you."

[/u]

Please don't ruin this movie for me before I've seen it.

Have just got back from seeing "Love & Mercy" and can safely report that Carol Kaye is shown to be nothing but one of the top studio musicians of the day...

Truth be told, I cannot see how anyone who watched the film could come out of it with anything but that impression. For all of the talk coming out of various camps who seem to have an axe to grind or want to find a reason to grind an axe where one doesn't exist, all they need to do is watch the film.

And that issue of the bass root played under a chord that seems to have been brought out, like any script of any film they have to condense certain events into a workable framework, as I mentioned in a post after someone asked about how the film portrayed Smile events. I know of some reports from musicians who were on the original sessions and some who were at those sessions that some of the players (especially some of those who had been playing dates in the 50's and who were coming from the jazz circles with different standards and skill sets than guys like Glen Campbell and Mike Deasy and the younger players) that some of the players would in fact question if not challenge certain parts they were given to play by Brian. It won't work, you can't do that, the notes I'm playing don't fit the chord, etc. Was it Tedesco, Kessel, Ritz, etc? Specifically I don't know if anyone can pinpoint an exact session where we can hear this, but we know that at least Tedesco and Kessel had on occasion raised an eyebrow at what they were asked to play. So the writers of the film took that as a *notion* that they wanted to represent in the studio process as of 1966, and happened to give that scene to the character of Carol to portray. I still don't understand what the brouhaha over it would be, if there are reports that various session players would in fact question some of the parts on the sessions.

BTW, in her rant about the movie BEFORE her most recent rant, she explicitly stated that she didn't see the movie. I wonder if that's changed.

Strong female characters are not a good thing?

Carol comes across as a very negative person of Facebook. She has ranted on about the bank taking her home, music piracy (I can understand) the term Wrecking Crew, Hal Blaine..the list goes on. I don't claim to know her situation, she obviously is a vital part of rock history, but the pattern of everyone being against her has been flogged to death.

fucking carol man...

anyway mad max is the feminist movie of the year.

i think im going to buy one of those paypal skype lessons with carol just so i can ask her wtf.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but in the mid-60 the going rate for a three hour session was $81.43 (session: "Summer Means New Love", 5/12/65), and if you did, say, three sessions a day, that was $244.02 minimum: overtime (going over three hours, playing after midnight) could bump that up a fair bit. Say you were first call and played three sessions a day, five days a week, 45 weeks a year: that's a gross of just under $60,000 a year. Of course, taxes and the like had to come out of that (although the AFM deducted pension contributions at source), but even so, that's probably more than the president was getting back then. Yet we keep hearing tales of impoverished session players. Where did it all go ? I know, some went up the nose, or to Uncle Al, but Carol didn't indulge, thus learning a few years back she'd had her house repossessed came as a helluva surprise. I can understand and sympathise with her down against music piracy, but even then she gets it all wrong by threatening to sue Google for selling pirate copies of her tutors and CDs. Nope, not kidding.

I prefer feminists that are a little more feminine, but I digress.  I only mentioned that one critic had used that line to prove a point.  

There are no portrayals of women in L&M where they might be construed as a "bimbo".  Marilyn is young and perhaps unsure what to do for Brian as his psychosis sets in.  Melinda is a strong and assertive lady who is handling her business and freely chooses to invest her energy in helping Brian out of the morass.  Carol is in the movie for all of 1-2 minutes tops and she's shown to be a top shelf studio musician, nothing more - nothing less.

Men can be feminists. It is believing in (female) gender equality.

Losing one's house is a huge stressor. And that is a tragedy.  I wasn't aware this had happened to her.  She might not be thinking clearly and is just lashing out at small things.  Her lashing out might be just an indicator that she needs help. 

Is anything gained, notwithstanding her contentious behavior, in calling her out, with the pretext of "taking a lesson?"

You could actually take a lesson, with a legend, learn some good technique, and help her financial status, which might make her more likely to be more reasonable about the "Brian movie." (And everything else.)

Maybe some pro bono lawyer via the music union, could help her sort out some of her issues and steer her in a good direction...And I bet she would have a very interesting story to tell, that she could work on, as a book or movie script, with good legal direction, and not rely on ranting on social media, which only alienates people.  And, does little for her. JMHO

Small problem with your notion is that she's been "lashing out" like this for a good fifteen years, and before her house was repossessed.

As for chaki actually paying for a Skype lesson purely to abuse her... you don't have much of a sense of humour, do you ? T'was fairly transparently a joke.

Andrew - it is often difficult to know what "passes for a joke" in these very "polarized" parts, these days. 

And, I'm looking only at the plain language of the post.  If I had an interest in the guitar, a Skype lesson with Carol, might be just the thing.  So long as she was a good teacher, and communicator, and not just a big brand name...

What does defy logic is this criticism of a de minimus role in this film and whatever irregularities are cropping up in terms of what sessions she actually played on. 

And, I had not followed her "fifteen years of lashing out."

i was joking for the record, but i will probably plop down the cash one of these days so carol can teach me how to put felt behind my strings.

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, fille, so don't take it that way -- but anecdotal evidence from people who have taken lessons from her, and also viewing a few youtube videos -- leads me to believe she's not a very good teacher.  Too fussy, not giving students enough time to follow what she's telling them, tendency towards impatience and belligerence, etc.  Being a good teacher doesn't require good technique as much as understanding how people learn and catering to that.

I'm not claiming to be anywhere near the player nor the experience that CK has, but I have done a session or two (including with some of the WC), and she's exactly the kind of personality/player that I do not want to learn from, or gig with.  Music is about much more than technical ability.

I think a more charitable way to look at it is this woman may be having mental issues, possibly brought on by severe stress and financial problems.  

It's more than 15 years. "Standing In The Shadow of Motown" came out in 1989 and she started claiming credit for some of Jamerson's parts not soon after IIRC, as documented here:

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks

That would mean she's been stirring the sh*t for 25 years now; I suspect her Internet feuding started as soon as she got a modem installed.

A scan on her wiki site proves she's not on Surf City but she claims otherwise:

http://wreckingcrew.tv/afmcontracts/Jan+Dean_SurfCity.pdf

Watch out she doesn't use an old man to do a wrap around with the felt

That's the key. Good teacher! (I'm fussy in that department!  :lol )

It is all about patience, communication and knowing your subject matter.

You did capture the likely issue, in your last sentence, and it is charitable to look that way on it.  She does seem to be struggling...for whatever reason.  Music is an art, you're correct, after you get down the technical basics.

Didn't she lose a daughter to cancer or something a few, several years back?

I actually should qualify that.  If I was on a session with Carol Kaye, I'd certainly watch her like a hawk.  But as far as taking a lesson from her - wouldn't ever do it, for reasons stated. 

Yes, she did. Terrible thing to happen to any parent.

‍

wow it sure sounds like she has an Ego problem... :( let's predict what she'll complain about next with the movie.

1. "I wasn't in it long enough."
2. "I never sat in that chair, or on that side of the room."
3. "The actresses boobs are too small (or big you choose)."
4. "I had a specific pair of underwear on, and they didn't include it in the movie."
5. "She had the wrong accent,,my accent is slightly different."
6. "The excluded me from Good Vibrations, which I played on."
7. "I was really the genius behind the music."
8. "I wrote all the songs but they act like Brian wrote them all."
9. "The Beach Boys stole all my music, I was the originator, the Queen."
10. "I am part black and they stole music from my race, along with Elvis and the Rolling Stones."

Other points that may be worth complaining about.

The sand in the sandbox scene may be the wrong grit.
Murry strikes Brian with his left hand. Should it have been the right?
Was it really Banana barking in sandbox? I think Louie deserves the credit.

Well this is a fun list.

- Teresa was wearing the wrong glasses prescription.
- Brian wanted to bring in a liger, not a horse, into the studio.
- She collaborated on Smile.
- She wrote the Surf's Up lyrics.
- SHE came up with the cello part on Good Vibes.

See what a quarrel between VDP and Kaye looks like...

Carol's reaction is extreme - she'd do well to temper this stuff as she does more harm than good to the reputation she's trying to defend. She should also be more considerate of the actress portraying her - Adamghost makes some very valid points.

However, I can understand why some of those portrayed in the film in smaller roles might feel aggrieved. I'm presuming those such as Carol Kaye are not paid to be portrayed in the film, right, or am I mistaken? If the only plus is 'exposure' and you feel you are being misrepresented on screen then you'd have every right to be pissed off about it, especially if you have worked hard to build up a professional reputation.  

I'm not a writer but it's clear in fiction that smaller characters are often written to reveal an aspect of the main character, rather than function as characters in their own right. I think when those smaller character parts are actually based on real people then problems are sure to occur.

In Love & Mercy the Carol Kaye character's main function is apparently to portray the anecdote of the hardened pros' bewilderment at the young wizkid producer's eschewing of rules. It's unfortunate that Kaye perceives this exchange as a 'dizzy blonde not understanding the music she's being handed' rather than her character representing the wrecking crew at large and its shared bewilderment at Wilson's methods. I'm sure Kaye constantly had to struggle against sexism and probably has a large chip on her shoulder about it. Viewing the scene myself I can see how she could misinterpret it that way. (I'm not criticising Teresa Cowle's acting btw - My point is we see a pretty blonde questioning something and that has certain inevitable associations). Personally I think it might have been better had one of the male wrecking crew members questioned the sheet music to avoid this ambiguity.

On a similar note, I wonder how the other Beach Boys feel about the portrayals? With the exception of Carl, they really are reduced to caricatures. Again, I think it's necessary for a movie like this to function, but I don't think that means the subjects have to grin and bear it.

Buddahat - the "questioning" of Brian was a step of courage...with group-centered activity it seems more normal to discuss a sticking point among peers prior to asking "the boss."  And the "blonde thing" I guess I'm not seeing.  

The film question was posed very intelligently.  I thought the actress did a good job and were it me, I might be flattered.  She has a really good (and important) story to tell, apart from her peers, as a woman "pioneer" in that industry.  

There is a much better way for her to tell it, in a really positive manner, that will enhance this "sessions musicians" story, rather than detract from it.  And be more empowering and inspirational for women at the same time.  Young girls need positive role models, especially in school settings where music programs are the first to be cut for budgetary reasons.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/attf85.jpg)

Carol Kaye is the most substantial studio bassist like Mike Watt is the most substantial bassist/performer and she has every right to her thoughts on inconsistencies portrayed regarding her likeness; the woman was/is brilliant and her basslines are in the greatest songs in recorded history, so....who is anyone to question her validity?

I question her validity when she claims to have played on sessions where it can be proven she didn't, e.g. "Surf City". Is she listed on the AFM sheet ? No.

I question her validity when she claims to have played on MoTown session despite her admission that she's never set foot in Detroit.

I question her validity when she tell her lemming-like followers to flood a site - Torrenfreak - with emails and comments because she totally misunderstands who it works and thinks they are selling pirate copies of her CDs and tutors. Especially when her mistake is pointed out to her and she totally ignores it.

I question her validity when she instantly deletes any comment she doesn't care for on her FB page and website, and bans the poster for good measure.

"her basslines are in the greatest songs in recorded history" - so you don't consider "Good Vibrations" to be such a song ?

-Whether or not there really ever was dog sh*t in the sandbox, and the consistency and texture of said sh*t.

She has every right to her thoughts.  The fact that she was/is a great bass player does not mean if some of us find things that she says, loudly and repeatedly in a public forum, offensive and stupid, that we don't have the right to express OUR thoughts.  

"Validity" has to do with the truth or logic of what someone says.  That has nothing to do with how good of a musician she is.  So yes, if she's going to say stupid things publicly, anybody has a right to call her on it.  The fact that she may be a great bass player is irrelevant.  And you, in turn, also get to post your thoughts here...unlike on Ms. Kaye's pages, where if anyone questions her "validity", they are speedily deleted.  Which is also her right, since it's her page.  Elsewhere, however, we all get to speak our mind in the good ol' U.S.A. and do not have to kowtow to someone else's reality simply because they and perhaps others feel they are entitled because of a series of very impressive accomplishments.

Enjoy freedom of speech.  It's good stuff.

When she makes statements that are prove-ably inaccurate and benefit her while diminishing others who actually deserve the credit (Ray Pohlman, James Jamerson - both deceased), and not only refuses to admit an error when presented with proof, but viciously attacks those who bring it to light.

To that, I'd add, anytime  a nutcase, such as kookadams, comes to her defense

Who the eff is Mike Watt?

He knows... he was there.

No relation to T Watt?

I don't often defend kookadams, but Mike Watt is pretty legendary in certain circles.

Minutemen, did someone say, Minutemen?

What a shocker - he played bass in a few punks bands that nobody cares about.

I think we should start a K(aye) family: Carol Kaye, Josef K, Special K, Lenny Kaye, Peter Kay, Kathy Kay

Don't forget Danny Kaye.

Or the KKK.

hahahaahahahahahaahahaha you're so dumb.

So they're punk bands that someone does care about? or you're passing on a personal Brian/Glen greeting?

Wow, there are idiots on here who dont know who Watt is and I get called a nutcase. Who gives a fu¢k what she says on facebook or for that matter many seem to think its crucial whats said online...my thread asking a simple query about events in history gets nixed yet this bogus thread ensues.

Sigh; it's almost enough to make a guy never post again?

Wait...the same guy who posts some of the most inane things on the board and has the spelling/grammar of a severely depressed rabbit is calling other people idiots? Pot, meet kettle...you're both black.

In any case, this kook needs a time out. I may make it permanent...who knows?

Mike Watt, and in particular The Minutemen, are legendary, held in high regard and well respected by most modern day players with an extremely storied career!
Their album "Double Nickles On The Dime" is basically the punk Pet Sounds. To be so dismissive is seriously trolly and stupid.

Difference of opinion. And to be perfectly frank, I think the comment was more to mess with kookadams (who is quite the troll him/her/itself) than an actual dismission.

I think it's crucial what is said online. Where would we be without a resource to remind us daily that
The BBs never made a proper album after Holland.
Love You was a solo album
Nobody in America was buying rock music in the late 60s
The Ramones were supposedly really good
The Beatles were talentless chancers without George Martin
LA Light was a hodgepodge album with only one rockin' cut
Mike Watt is the most substantial bassist ever
Knowing who Mike Watt is is a sign of intelligence, unlike being able to spell or use grammar correctly.

ok understood and lol. im a n00b here and didn't realize kook's rep.

Just checked out some Minutemen on youtube and it was shite. Each to their own.

i would reply to that glib remark but i'm too embarrassed for you to type.

You're embarrassed for me because I don't like a band you do? Ooooooooooooooooookay........................................

Again, it's difference of opinion.

I think it's a question of temperature

They sort of remind me of Freaky Styley era Chili Peppers minus the hooks. On the plus side, their singer is roughly x100 less annoying then Anthony Kiedis.

I think it's a question of Ball Hog or Tugboat.

When is AGD going to admit that Carol Kaye was the true author of The Complete Guide to the Music of the Beach Boys and Doe and Tobler stole her credit?

Rumbled. It's a fair cop, guv, you got me bang to rights, I'll come quietly...

Does anyone know when the Carol Kaye biopic "Love & Mercy" comes out on home video?

All I know is...this thread exists because of someone who insists that the "Good Vibrations" session film was staged.

I think Carol Kaye is staged.

I'm surprised she doesn't rush the stage at BW concerts and grab the bass out of Bob Lizik's hands: "that's not how you play it!"

I imagine a heated shouting match leading up to fisticuffs and finally climaxing in some passionate lovemaking. "Mercy! Mercy!"

Not as fanciful as you'd imagine: she's berated him online for using a five-string.

Now, normally I don't advocate or condone violence towards anyone, especially the elderly (although I'll grant that twat Morrissey an exemption) but seriously, someone needs to slap (metaphorically or not) some sense into that woman.

Criticizing Lizik for using a five-string bass is ridiculous. McCartney used a 5-string bass on his 89/90 tour and nobody died. I think McCartney only stopped using his Rickenbacker or that Wal 5-string bass regularly in concerts because they are much heavier than a semi-hollow Hofner.

It’s about the player much more than the instrument. I was fascinated hearing the stories of early Cream reunion rehearsals in 2005, where they initially tried hauling out all the gear (Bruce’s Gibson bass, Clapton’s ES-335, Marshall stacks, etc.) they had used in the late 60’s. After trying to use that stuff, they just decided instead to use whatever instruments they preferred in the modern day. Ultimately, it’s about the player, and then they use whatever *they* feel most comfortable using. It’s not always perfect; I would have preferred to see Clapton bust out a Les Paul or something with humbuckers on some of those Cream songs. But if he is more comfortable playing his Strat, then that’s how it has to be.

Speaking of Cream, I read that Carol Kaye is now taking credit for Jack Bruce's influential bass playing. 

I can't stand 5-string basses. Bob's a fantastic musician (obviously) but as a bassist myself, 5-string basses are tasteless and somewhat overkill.
There are NO Beach Boys songs that require a low B-note, etc. That's what piano is for!
To me, it's almost the equivalent to someone playing a Van Halen-style tapping solo over Fun Fun Fun.

Nothing against Bob - he's a fantastic player but he's more of an RnB guy in general.
I miss Brett Simons a lot as I think he played more like the original recordings (picked bass w/ a lot of palm muting).

PS. McCartney with a 5-string was equally embarrassing as his mullet and bad sweaters throughout the late 80s/90s. Just a terrible instrument.

Brian Eichenberg of M&B's band is killing it on bass and is playing what looks like a vintage white P-Bass just like Brian did in the 60s.

I've found from performing that there are at least a few Beach Boys songs that at the very least require you to tune down the E-string. "Sloop John B" and "California Girls" come to mind. I remember wishing I HAD a five-string bass to make it easier so I wouldn't have to de-tune and re-tune between songs.

A friend of mine uses a 5-string bass, but the extra string is actually after the G string. He tunes it to a C.

I'm just glad Carol Kaye never played wearing a G-string

Not de-railing this thread too far, but as a 5-string player myself, it's not all about going down to the low B - playing runs further up the fingerboard is made easier and there are more options for finding the required notes.

To dismiss 5-string basses as tasteless is frankly untrue and insulting to players who use them and love them.

(By the way, I also love 4-string basses - I'm playing my 4-string fretless at a gig tonight !)

I think this is a good point. If the bass player is riding the absolute bottom end on the low string all the time, and the low string is a low B, then perhaps it would be overkill on certain types of music. But I don't recall a huge amount of "bong rattling" bass from him.  :lol

I think Lizik is fine; I've very mildly complained (observed is probably a better word) that he is a bit too sterile sounding on the bass for my taste, and that may come from his perhaps having more of an R&B and/or jazz background. I actually thought Mike D'Amico sounded great playing bass on C50. But I also like his drumming a lot too; I somehow doubt he can do both at the same time on stage.

But my original point was simply that, if you pick the player, then I'm all about having the player play whatever allows them to do their thing. That was the point of the Cream analogy. They tried the late 60's gear for the "look" of it, and probably to some degree to try to make it sound more like the original recordings and old live gigs. But they found they were much more comfortable using the gear they liked in the then-modern era.

It was interesting to see on C50 that there appeared to be some sort of potential Gibson sponsorship in the offing, and Al and Dave both used new Gibson gear at the Grammies that year. But apparently at some point Al and Dave made a unified decision to throw out the endorsement deal and just use the gear they wanted.

She wasn't just some bimbo, you know.

You can show that, just make sure she's not wearing a fireman hat. 

The playing of authentic instruments can be as much a treat for the hardcore fans as it is an actual, practical choice. Imagine if Clapton had worked out a deal with Rundgren to borrow that psychedelic "The Fool"-painted SG for the Cream shows, and played it for a few tunes on stage for the reunions. That's the difference between guitarists and regular fans, we look for and at times go crazy over those little touches in a live show or TV special. It was in fact a pretty big deal for McCartney to bring the Hofner bass back on the road, I saw the tour where this happened and it was kind of neat. Now it's ubiquitous. The story I remember is that Elvis Costello and Paul had been collaborating on tunes like Veronica, and Elvis asked if Paul would play the ol' Hofner, and he did. Then Paul, again if I recall, was watching the rooftop film from Let It Be and saw how lightweight and how comfortable he was playing that bass, surely less of a strain than the 5-string Wal bass he had been playing prior to the latest tour. So he resurrected the Hofner, and fans dug it quite a bit. It's never left him on stage since that tour.

But ultimately it's the players choice, obviously, and as mentioned some of the modern instruments are just better players and more reliable than the ones fans associate with these artists from 40-50 years ago. I heard some funny stories about Tony Iommi and his choices of amps when Sabbath got back together a few years ago to record the album with Rick Rubin.

I can see that.

The first time I saw Van Halen in 2004, it was really cool to see Eddie Van Halen play the red and white "Frankenstein" guitar for a few songs, and Michael Anthony play his Jack Daniel's bass for a few songs. 

Eddie has in recent years become as much a salesman for his own lines of equipment as the guitarist giving the fans a treat!  ;D  I know they did a limited run of "Frankenstein" exact copies a few years ago, accurate to the exact date of the quarter he used to stabilize the Floyd Rose bridge and the cigarette burns on the headstock, if I remember they retailed somewhere upwards of 25 grand. So that's over the top, but if I were paying good cash to see VH play I'd almost be disappointed if "Frankenstein" didn't show up on stage for a few tunes versus whatever brand Eddie is promoting at the time (EVH, Music Man, even Peavey had him for a time...). It's an icon among guitarists.

Another example is Brian May - There have been numerous copies, clones, tribute models, etc but seeing him without that original red guitar he built with his dad and used on most of the recordings would almost be a letdown!

There are also stories about Cheap Trick working on some sessions with John Lennon for what would become Double Fantasy, some of the actual takes came out in the deluxe editions not long ago. Cheap Trick were Beatles fanatics, Rick Neilsen a known guitar freak and avid collector/geek. When they showed up for the sessions, Lennon at that time was playing a variety of guitars like an Ovation, some custom futuristic creation that I can't even remember the name of the maker...hardly "Beatle" guitars. I think it was Neilsen who actually may have gotten up the nerve to ask John "so...what about that Rickenbacker?" or something to that effect.  :)  Even in that setting, I think a guy like Rick Neilsen associated Lennon and the music with those iconic guitars that everyone saw in the 60's, while Lennon himself didn't seem to give that aspect of it a second thought. He was playing an Ovation Balladeer or whatever it was at that time, and it suited him just fine. Not really a concern for what the fans might have expected or wanted him to play.

I thought I was going to witness the last show for Brian May's Red Special. 

In March 2006, I saw Queen + Paul Rodgers in DC.  When the lights went down before the band played "Bad Company," Brian fell into the pit from which Paul Rodgers's grand piano was to ascend.  The way Brian looked at the guitar after two stagehands pulled him out had me worried that the legendary guitar was damaged, but the show went on, and the guitar was fine. 

Yeah, thank God the guitar was ok.

"It's Oh, Kaye!"