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I've always had very mixed feelings about these two albums. Brian is largely absent and it shows (you could throw the Surf's Up album in there too actually). His meager contributions are easily the best tracks on these albums for me. Of course, it's interesting to hear the other guys develop as songwriters, but as great as those songs are...they don't they hold a candle to what Brian delivered in the past, or what he would deliver a few years later on "The Beach Boys Love You". That's my opinion anyway.

I know these two albums are big favorites around here, but with next-to-no Brian involvement, they both fall kinda flat for me.



Agree? Disagree? Am I alone in the wilderness?
 

   

I don't really like them. The BBs were best as BW's creative outlet. The other guys songs kinda bore me to be honest on those albums.

Actually have to disagree, SB. There are my two favorite albums after Friends!

For newcomers...So Tough Brian's on 3 songs, but is a lot more heavily on them than once thought.

Agree. There's some nice stuff from the other guys like "Cuddle Up", "All This Is That" and "Trader", but overall both these albums I find quite boring and uninspired. But then my enjoyment of Beach Boys albums is more-or-less in direct correlation with the amount of Brian Wilson involvement, which is why I'm more likely to listen to 15 Big Ones or MIU, even though both those albums are shaky at best.

Exceptions I guess would be Surf's Up and L.A., both of which serve as high points for Carl, FWIW.

I'd say that Brian was still writing at a very high level around the So Tough/Holland era and that the other guys were matching him song for song.

Agreed. For me , though, the worst track by far was actually a Dennis song (Make it Good), which feels weird for me to say.

I hate Make it Good, the only outright duffer they put out during those early 70s years for me. I wish this line up had held together longer.

I like them for 2 reasons: Marcella and Sail On, Sailor...

Southbay, I dig your avatar!

Why thank you, Sir.  Google is a beautiful thing.

So Tough to me is very weak except Marcella and bits&pieces of other cuts but I always liked Holland, the last worthwhile BBs lp. Sail on Sailor classic, California is quite catchy...but it cant be ignored that Brian was hardly involved after Sunflower, 15bO was good for what it is but Love you is very unique, great tunes.

Totally dig these albums, especially Holland, which has been a decade-long grower for me.  I really like the Ricky and Blondie tracks too.  'Leaving this Town' is kick ass when the keyboard solo gets going (it's lights out on 'In Concert').

Going back to 'Surf's Up', it can be spotty in places but when it's cool it's cool.  Even 'Lookin' at Tomorrow' does it for me - trippy as f**k.

Sure, they're not BW through and through, but then, I'm a Beach Boys fan!

Loved Holland from the first time I heard it! In many ways it represents the group members' "true selves" like few other BB records do, with Brian being reclusive and doing experimental stuff (Mt Vernon and Fairway) yet still providing the hit single (SOS), Dennis writing a tender love song, Mike and Alan doing songs about California, and Carl holding it all together. Leaving This Town is great too, like a 70s rock update of That's Not Me.

For me, So Tough was an album I liked from almost the first listen. It showed me a different side of the Beach Boys that wasn't revealed on the Best Of Comps out at the time. Holland, however, was definitely a grower for me.

I love "So Tough," I LOVE "Holland," I love "Surf's Up," of course... and "Sunflower," and "20/20..." anything from '66-'73 is as good as it gets, for me. The greatest band ever, at the height of their powers. Whether it was Brian as the principle songwriter, or a "democratic" effort, I think they ALL deserve all the credit in the world. Long live The Beach Boys...

So Tough wasn't a "side project" as said b4 but it was like an alter ego of the group experimenting w the new sound they established w blondie & ricky...being that every BB album had twelve cuts w a couple exceptions So Tough was six group songs and two outtakes from Dennis's shelved first solo project; Holland was SO MANY things though- the FULL representation of the ricky/blondie sound, the last solid group effort and the bookend of the BBs as an album making entity in the industry. Make sense?

I say EVERY BBs album from 63 to 73 was/is killer, the only weak album in those years was Friends...little bird MADE that album but even bruce said it was weak.

I absolutely love "Friends," but I'm not a huge fan of the "Little Deuce Coupe" album, or the "Surfin' Safari" album. "Surfin' USA," "All Summer Long," "Summer Days (etc.)" are pretty darn great, especially "Surfin' USA..." LOVE that album. I'll take the early 60's stuff over the post-'73 stuff any day, for sure. (Although I do love "Love You" and "LA (Light Album).")

Agreed. 76 was brians year tho, love you coming out after four years of nada. Its not even so much that the BBs were done making legitimate albums after holland, its that new music was no longer their focus. The last forty years of the BBs is a devotion to the performance not the product.

Interesting that you brought this topic up, Ghosty. It's something that's kinda crossed my mind before. And in advance, I'm gonna say, I'm a very Brian-centric Beach Boys fan. I love every other member as well, but it's Brian's songs which do it for me.

So why do I like Carl and the Passions and Holland so much? I think it's a combination of the songs (of course) and the general vibe of those albums. It's a more scuffed-up sound then we're used to The Beach Boys. And a lot of the time I really like stuff that is a little loser, a little funkier. I also gotta say that The Beach Boys and a few other great artists from this era (Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, Nilsson) had this cool mellow, but still funky and rockin' earthiness to their approach and look from, say '71 through '73ish. And that's part of why I'm into this period.

Also, the songs on both albums are nothing to complain about. "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone", "Marcella" and "Sail On, Sailor" all showed Brian's new somewhat rougher, rockin' approach and three songs are major successes artistically, and somewhat commercially in the case of "Sail On, Sailor." He also showed he go do gospel with "He Come Down" and continued his ethereal approach of "'Til I Die" and "Sweet Mountain" with "Funky Pretty."  Then you have some great stuff from Blondie and Ricky like "Here She Comes" which a nice piece of early 1970s rock. Mike and Al also do their with "All This Is That" (with Carl) and stuff like Mike's "Big Sur" and Al's "California." With Carl, in addition to the already mentioned "All This Is That," gives us "The Trader," which took time for me to end up enjoying. But now it seems obvious to me, than a few times in early '70s, Carl was really making some music that can stand up to his brother Brian or Dennis' tunes. The non-Brian guys really seemed to come into their own in this era and I think this really has helped these albums to be so appreciated all this time later. I do have to say, some of the only somewhat lower points come from Dennis. On Carl and the Passions seemed a bit more style than substance. And I like what some would call pretty "meandering" ambient stuff, but "Make It Good" especially seems to go nowhere. Although it does sound] nice still, but as nothing more than a mood piece. On the other hand, I think "Steamboat" and "Only With You" from Holland are top notch songs. The band just really had everybody hit their stride on Holland and the only things truly messing were a lead vocal from Dennis and also more leads from Brian than just his part in "California."

I dunno.  I think they're both decent albums... a lot better than some of the later stuff.  The whole 70's period is a different sound for them so although the albums don't have as many killer, legendary songs like some of the other albums do, it's kind of interesting to listen to them from time to time just to hear something different that they did.  There's some gems in there, I love the California Saga suite from beginning to end, even the spoken word part.   I've got an old Columbia turntable from the 50's that I've had "Holland" on for a long time, every once in awhile I fire that thing up and let the album play, it sounds really good with a lot of warmth to it. 

Brian's not there much... but everybody else is!  His spirit's there, even though he didn't do sh*t his presence looms large on everything they were doing back then. 

Love Holland and Surf's Up. Love CATP a bit less.

Both wonderful (creative) albums.

Absolutely...I tend to think of them as one brilliant work.  :thewilsons

I take it even further than that. My favorite BB albums are essentially Surfer Girl through Friends. There is still much that I enjoy in the later albums (particularly 20/20 through Love You), but I don't hold even Sunflower in the same regard as, say, All Summer Long. I appreciate the other guys, I love Pacific Ocean Blue, but for me the BB pinnacle is always when the primary sound and sensibility is coming from "classic" Brian.

Just because they are Beach Boys without major involvement from Brian Wilson doesn't mean that they automatically aren't as good. Both great albums.

surfer girl thru 20/20 for sure, friends is a decent lp cuz a little bird, without it not the strongest record...

Sometimes I think this board has slipped into bizzarro land. 

You ain't shittin'! I love Brian's music and they were mostly the best tracks on the album, but Brian's participation slowed during those years and the rest of the guys picked up the slack. Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Here She Comes, Cuddle Up, The Trader, Steamboat, Only With You and California are very good songs. I dare say a few even better than a couple of Brian's songs.

Totally agree.  :)

They're great albums. Not as much Brian? No problem. Hey, we could listen to Keepin' the Summer Alive...but who really wants to?

I really like both albums, but it's obvious that they are very different from the sound and style that made most of us fans in the first place (everything through '66 basically). But despite that, the harmonies (even the songs without Brian) are still incredible and that's what makes them true Beach Boys albums for me. "Leaving This Town" is one of my favorites from these albums (and terribly underrated I feel, but obviously irrelevant here), but if it was done by another band it might come off as more generic; however, when you take that gritty, soulful, "70s" sound and put the Beach Boys harmonies over the top...beautiful.

Make It Good - clearly showing the influence of Hollywood, expressing a fragile, wounded, deep emotion openly expressed, nothing held back.

I can see James Dean, Natalie Wood and Sal Mineo at the abandoned mansion in Rebel Without a Cause.

Carl and the Passions - A Great Classic Rock Album.

Music changed...What music people were recording and what maturing 'boomers' were listening to was different.  Top 40 mattered less and less.... ... ...and less.  Hit singles were OK but successful albums were much better and "cooler"  CATP and Holland were emblematic of a new direction both LIVE and on record which Jack was working out for the group...and he assisted them.  It worked.  It sounded excellent.  The 2 1/2 minute 'ditty' was done.

and then...they got spooked.  Jack left.  Endless Bummer faked them out and all of a sudden we had 15 little ones and a top 40 hit and a half with a needessly editted Rock and Roll Music and It's OK.  After that?  Well...it all just kind of slowly dissolved and except for the odd sojourn back onto 'hit' radio...WE were all that was left to appreciate the various nuances.

There was never an album of NEW, never previously recorded, music released by the GROUP which can hold a candle to either of the albums shining in this spotlight...although TWGMTR tries hardest to impress...and actually contains some finer, more impressive moments.  W/O Brian...the album NEVER would have seen the light of day.  Back then?  The guys had to pitch in as Brian only had so much to contribute.  They did well.

I would have loved for the Beach Boys to continue what they did on So Tough and Holland; there was infinitely more promise in this direction than falling back on "Brian is a genius; come on Brian, write and produce us some hits". Sometimes I wish Carl and Dennis had just left in '77, and left Mike and Al to rot in oldies hell.

I don't see why that's an issue one way or the other, really -- "Abbey Road" is at least as profoundly different from "Please Please Me".  :-)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

KTSA is awesome, with the exception of Endless Harmony, which is propably the worst song the BB ever recorded plus When Girls Get Together which is irritating as hell. But especially the title track, Some of Your Love, Living With a Heartache, Sunshine and Goin' On are all standout tracks.

I like it all with the exception of When Girls Get Together which would have made for a wretched Sunflower track and sounds even worse here with it's glaring production and vocal differences.

'Barely any Brian'???
When Holland includes one of Brian's true masterpieces: A miniature concept album/song cycle: Mount Vernon & Fairway (a fairy tale)!!!

I think that KTSA is a record that is actually less than the sum of its parts. Santa Ana Winds, Goin' On, Livin' with a Heartache, Oh Darlin', or When Girls Get Together are all pretty good on their own but somehow the album as a whole seems incredibly dull to me. It probably has to do with the overall sound, which I think is thin and unimaginative.

It sucks enormous amounts of ass - except for Santa Ana Winds.

It was better than most of the post Endless Bummer releases.  But still.  The Wikipedia "professional rating" of 1 /12 out of 5 doesn't seem too terribly off the mark compared to the body of work from Surfin USA to Holland and their subsequent Double Live Concert album.

While I'll accept that 8 of the 10 songs are anywhere from OK to pretty good...there really isn't anything jaw-droppingly great, unique or outstanding.  They were back to writing short little ditties again.  Only 'Living With a Heartache' was over 4 minutes.  That said...I was programming a radio station out west then and we played the title track, 'Living With a Heartache', and 'Goin' On'.  We played hits and album tracks...with some cool oldies.  2 of those 3 songs were also co-written by a local guy who grew up in the city...and I don't mean Carl. :lol

I like it quite a bit. Sunshine and When Girls Get Together are only two that I am not too fond of.

Keepin' the Summer Alive is a band on autopilot, putting out something just to get something out. They should have just called it Keepin' Up with Contractual Obligations.

That was WAY too often the case...post 1973...  Take 2 or 3...maybe 4 pretty decent songs and surround them with filler and covers. ::)

I'd say the same about MIU and Still Cruisin'. LA not so much. The self-titled, not really. Summer in Paradise was Michael's idea...because allegedly the rest of the band were uninterested in recording.

If my first wife's name wasn't Evelyn, it should have been. I recall that she shared a first name with our neighbor, who was her second cousin. I often confused the two. If I crawled into bed at night and heard a scream, I assumed I was in the wrong house.

I believe these little newlywed errors to have influenced Brian Wilson's "My Diane," though probably not. The song would likely have been called "My Evelyn" if such had been the case.

Holland is an album I loved upon its release and for many years thereafter, in large part because the music appealed to me. So Tough, on the other hand, left me cold upon its release - I required a parka to listen - and for quite a few years thereafter. But the latter has grown on me.

What this has to do with Evelyn - if that was indeed the name of either of the women - I haven't a clue. But I am certain my first wife wasn't named Marcella. Nor was our neighbor, her cousin.

A disk jockey in my hometown honored my request for "Sail on Sailor" one evening and apparently drew good audience response. The song was placed in heavy rotation, then in a large fruit bowl. The DJ began playing "California Saga" as well -- sometimes the trilogy and sometimes merely "California." At the latter choice, I raged impotently and often in the nude.

Oddly the two Holland tracks that have aged best in my mind are Dennis' "Steamboat" and "Only With You." Carl's "The Trader" has not fared as well, and I am not sure why -- then again, I am only vaguely aware of what I had for breakfast. Sausage was involved, as I recall, though not link.

Carl seems to have lost some of the Surf's Up momentum that gave us two brilliant compositions, "Long Promised Road" and especially "Feel Flows," which has aged most gracefully (I can't say the same for Evelyn or whatever her name was. She got the face she deserved, as they say - a mean, spiteful, straight razor totin' woman).

"Cuddle Up" did little for me upon it's release (the same could be said for Evelyn, or perhaps her name and that of her cousin was Trixie. It rings a bell). But I have come to view the song as a Beach Boys classic, somewhere in the lower half of their top 50.

I recall being put off by the pairing of Pet Sounds and So Tough, believing that the packaging betrayed a lack of confidence that would doom So Tough with the critics. Perhaps this colored my opinion at the time, though not my hair. I have never colored my hair and those who claim otherwise are merely jealous of my good fortune in genetics, at least in this one area.

I believe Mike Love was jealous not only of my thick locks but also of their resistance to the greying process. Proof of this can be found in "California Saga," which I believe to have been a clear and unambiguous message to me.

Sometime shortly after the release of Holland, I fell deeply in love with a ballet dancer from Chicago, though I didn't much care for her. My dalliance here is probably the reason the Boys lost their way in the subsequent years, and I accept the blame.

On the other hand, could Brian have conjured Love You had I remained with Evelyn/Trixie? Very likely not, as he never met the woman. Nor did he meet her cousin, as far as I know.

So all works out for the best, other than a serving of Brussels sprouts at a dinner party.

Honkin' down a gosh darn highway!

Edit out a couple songs from holland and replace with a couple from CATP.   Then you have one super lp representative of that era.

As for KTSA, and I don't know why a Holland era thread went off on that tangent, I have always TRIED to like it but could only accomplish that for a couple of songs.   I used to like the cover but not so much these days..........

Brian was sufficiently involved in the Holland period to leave his mark on the album in a number of spots.    These are the Ricky/Blondie STUDIO albums.    They represent a key period for the band.

One of the biggest mysteries for me in the group's history, not just from the CATP/Holland period, but from 20/20 through Holland, was the scarcity of Brian Wilson lead vocals. After Friends in 1968, it's almost like Brian disappeared as a lead vocalist. I'm not referring to a line here or a word there, but a full blown solo lead vocal. On the five studio albums from 1969-1973, he almost appeared to be hiding vocally, even on his own songs. I've never heard or read why. It's not that his voice was shot...yet.

Filling up the set with oldies was initially Guercio + Dennis' idea.

I like TWGMTR more than So Tough and more than Holland.

I think he hid until he could show the world a voice he related more to. Other than a baby-voiced line here or there, or his Pied Piper voice, he didn't show up vocally really.

Yeah, and the ironic thing was, while Brian was "struggling" with his voice, Carl and Al were, not exactly trying to imitate him, but kind of emulating him. There's a lot of songs from that period (1969-73) where it's hard to distinguish who exactly is singing! :-D That Daddy Dear/Susie Cincinnati tape from Holland is an example of this...

It's true, suddenly Carl was everywhere Brian used to be.

Word.

Now THAT...That right there...is just plain hilarious. :lol  Sorry for your luck Hank.  Nice hair though. ;)

Nope, you're not alone -- I'm a fan of KTSA too.

  The title track  and "Goin' On" are pretty good, "Heartache" is fair, but "Sunshine" and especially "Some of Your Love" make me cringe. I like "WGGT" as an oddity; it did not belong on KTSA though.

 Here's one thumbs up for "Make It Good"...an overwhelmingly evocative mood piece/tone poem.

 

I think CATP is a decent album, but I love Holland. 

However, and I know I'm in the minority, other than Sail On Sailor, I don't care for Brian's contributions to Holland.  Funky Pretty is easily my least favorite track on the album.  I don't even consider the Mt. Vernon piece a part of the album, and find it pretty tough to sit through. 

I do think Funky Pretty points the way to the type of songs Brian would contribute to Love You.  But I'm on the side of the fence that doesn't much care for the Love You album. 

I love it, 85 too.

Nice observation Sheriff.

And I think things began to shift that way as early as Smiley Smile right?

KTSA is not bad; half of the songs are on my repeat button. BB85 is a solid album - and no, the production doesn't bother me as much as it does others, I grew up with that sound.

The 80s production doesn't really bother me.  I just think the songs on BB85 are kinda weak for the most part.  However, I think Getcha Back is the best song released by any Beach Boy in the 1980s (inlcuding the BW88 album which also has 80s production). 

He had 4 lead vocals on Friends, though, which is quite a lot - Wake the World, Man Needs a Woman, Busy Doin' Nothin', TM. His voice is also very present on Little Bird and Anna Lee. He would even have had another lead vocal moment if Meant for You had not been cut off after 30 seconds.

I Love the Live Version of Funky Pretty.   a very STRONG live performance, one of their best on record.

"WHERE'S  MY SPARK IN THE DARK?"

Well I wish Stephen Desper's book had been more widely distributed. Brian we know is on Sunflower, but if you listen to the vocal blend it's obvious Brian is also still very present on Surf's Up. He isn't on Riot, or Lookin At Tomorrow, but he added new things to the other eight cuts instrumentally and/or vocally. He's doing the high parts on Disney Girls, DGNTW, both of Carl's songs, even outtakes like WIBNTLA, and Big Sur. He arranged the new harmonies on Surf's Up, sings lead on Til' I Die, and part of Feet. Of course Tree was his baby too. He's still very around, but did not write a lot.

The 1972 stuff, he wasn't around as much but he co-wrote and co-produced three out of eight songs on So Tough. No lead singing, but that's more writing for the album than any other band member. Really the album isn't designed to have any real group dynamic, it's their White Album so to speak so yes no doubt Brian was getting less involved, but the album is set up for no one person to dominate. Nobody really is featured strongly throughout, except maybe Carl slightly as a vocalist.

Holland has much less Brian than before. He didn't bother to go to the Sail On Sailor vocal session, which tells you a lot about of his growing apathy. That said he certainly helped on some of the music track. Maybe not the one used, but he has begun arranging it back in 1971 with Desper at the control board.  Funky Pretty is a full Brian cut with him playing and singing harmony, plus writing and producing. Of course Mt. Vernon is his too (though Carl and Jack had to finish it) so that does add a lot of Brian to the record. Still Holland has Brian pulling away even more than So Tough.

I Iike all the Beach Boys, and I happen to think Holland is the last album that catches them all doing top level work at the same time. Of the Acoustic Sounds vinyl reissues coming, Holland will be the most interesting. It will have Mt. Vernon on a separate LP record and have the first official release of We Got Love.

GREAT comparison between the White Album and So Tough!

Thanks. I've had it since 1989 and looking at it tonight the thought just struck me. Just everyone working on their own stuff and somehow it fell together as a whole. I agree about Make It Good not working all that well, but the White Album has a few less than great moments on an overall cool project too.

However he did, reportedly, call in and give Carl a rough arrangement for the "morse" keyboards.

Just struck me - it's possible he was in Iowa with Spring & Sandler.

Yeah he did help with it over the phone, the morse code. I think the Iowa stuff was very Jan. 1973, and Sail On was Nov 1972.
At least according to a great site by some Doe fella.

Holland was out already too.

I really love both So Tough and Holland, both stellar albums even if they aren't Brian-centric. Many creative stuff on both and not boring one bit to me.

This thread inspired me to gather into a compilation most Brian compositions made from 1967 to 1975. I think something similar would sell like hotcakes, surely after the theatrical release of Love & Mercy!;)

Disc I
After the Friends Sessions to Sunflower Sessions

Disc II
From the Landlocked/Surf's Up Sessions to 1975 sessions (which gets really weird and reminds me of Big Star's Third)

BRIAN WILSON & THE BEACH BOYS 1967-1970 (DISC I)

01 Been Way Too Long
02 Do It Again
03 Walk On By
04 We're Together Again
05 I Went To Sleep
06 All I Wanna Do
07 Sail Plane Song
08 Old Man River/Old Folks At Home
09 Walkin'
10 Time To Get Alone
11 Cotton Fields
12 Loop de Loop
13 Break Away
14 Soulful Old Man
15 Games Two Can Play
16 Add Some Music To Your Day
17 When Girls Get Together
18 Our Sweet Love
19 At My Window
20 This Whole World
21 Where Is She?
22 Back Home (1970 Version)
23 Carnival
24 I Just Got My Pay
25 Good Time
26 Take A Load Off Your Feet, Pete
27 Cool, Cool Water

BRIAN WILSON & THE BEACH BOYS 1971-1975 (DISC II)

01 'Til I Die
02 H.E.L.P Is On The Way
03 My Solution
04 A Day In The Life Of A Tree
05 Surf's Up
06 Marcella
07 You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone
08 He Comes Down
09 Funky Pretty
10 Mt. Vernon and Fairway Theme
11 Im' The Pied Piper (Instrumental)
12 Better Get Back In Bed
13 Magic Transistor Radio
14 Im' The Pied Piper
15 Radio King Dom
16 Sail On Sailor
17 Had To Phone Ya
18 Shortenin' Bread
19 Good Timin'
20 It's OK
21 Battle Hymn Of The Republic
22 Rollin' Up To Heaven
23 California Feelin'
24 Child Of Winter
25 Back Home (1975 Version)
26 In The Back Of My Mind (1975 version)

(MIA for disc II are Lucy Jones, Just An Imitation, Funky Fever, Spark in the Dark, Gimme Some Lovin', Rooftop Harry, You're Riding High on the Music)

I definitely like this period with Ricky and Blondie in tow.  It was an interesting direction the band was going in and I wish they had opportunities to explore it further (all that came to a screeching halt with 15 Big Ones).  The level of integrity certainly took a nosedive afterwards. 

KTSA was WAAY more of a solid/legitimate lp than the light album and MIU.. it has 3 rockin cuts vs just the one on LA and no godawful disco remake. MIU was the group scrambling to satisfy warners, and the light album was  leftovers of old sessions and remakes thrown together...holland is evident in its contribution from every member and as previously stated- the bookend to their 5/6 progressive era, I would really like to find a good bootleg or compilation of the 74 caribou sessions, but the bulk of that was ruined in.a fire right?

I don't think it's bad at all.  It sounds dated because of when it was recorded (or the style it was recorded with) but that kind of stuff never bothers me. 

Disclaimer: I like about everything, though.  I enjoyed Jessica Simpson's music. 

Has anything ever surfaced from the Holland sessions?

I seem to have read, somewhere in the distant past, of an extended studio workout on Funky Pretty.

Complete tosh, of course: of the ten tracks, six are completely new recordings. Seven if you include "HCTN".

Good timin 74, love surrounds me&baby blue- dennis' bambu, sumahama-mike's first/country love, h.c.t.n.- rehashed wild honey, shortenin bread-brian's 76... the whole album was/is rehashed and/or re.recordings etc. How is that tosh??

But how many actual "rockin' cuts" does an album like Holland contain then? One? Two if you're being generous? Starting with Pet Sounds they stopped being a rock band for most of their studio work I think (which is perfectly fine with me).

Andrew I'm afraid you are  :wall :wall :wall here. In Kook's eyes if it wasn't written on the way to the studio that day then it is old/rehashed material.

Recycled tracks from earlier sessions:

Good Timin'
Angel Come Home (possibly - jury's out)
Shortenin' Bread
Love Surrounds Me

Re-recordings:

Lady Lynda
Sumahama (just - 26 days between original and re-recording !)
HCTN
Baby Blue

Completely new songs:
Full Sail
Goin' South

None of the recycled sessions was included unaltered, and 20% of the album was entirely new. Pretty much every single BB album since Surfin' Safari has included material from earlier years, either as riffs, compositions or actual recordings.

Andrew,

No matter how many true and accurate facts you throw at this guy, he will always come back with his opinion that every single BB album recorded after Holland was a hodge podge of older songs and covers. 

But, your knowledge is appreciated, as always. 

PS - Speaking of which, I really enjoyed your Complete Guide to the Music of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys.  Do you think there's any chance of a revised edition that would include every release from GIOMH - NPP?  I know that book was part of a series, but just figured I'd ask. 

That would be wonderful!

Im not trying to contradict fact or undermine albums, my main point (which most Ive seen concur) is that Holland was the last solid BBs album and the bookend of their progressive era..I realize the older songs on LA and KTSA were re-recorded Im just saying that it was prevalent they were low on new material in the mid 70s and it effected their output in the second half of the decade. After Holland the only substantial "hit" was Berry's rockNroll music; the BBs were a hit machine 63 thru 68 ans even tho 20/20 is a hodgepodge Id say its a more solid,rockin album than Friends, Sunflower and anything that followed, although Love You has some great moments. And I know I get snide replies when I mention the Ramones but all their key cuts 77-83 have a prevalent BBs sound and its mind boggling that sire/wb couldn't get them a hit when the BBs had rNr music..

They couldn't buy a hit from 1970 until 1976. They released some pretty decent songs too. The public wasn't buying it. Yet, they scored two Top 40 hits with old/new songs with It's OK and Good Timin', plus Come Go With Me, like 3 years after it's initial release. I don't care if a song is 10 years old, if I'm hearing it for the first time on a current release, then it is new to me.

It's staggering cuz dennis's cuts on sunflower were killer as was til I die and california (on my way tt sunny)...those SHOULDA been big hits; WHO at that time was making great rockNroll? CCR peaked in 70, so who else was making great records in the first half of the 70s yknow..

Only about half a zillion other bands/artists.

   Brad Elliot's SURF'S UP discography indicates that the instrumental track for "Angel Come Home" was recorded in 1976. Is that accurate? If so, it must be from around or right after 15 BIG ONES.  

  We haven't seen a ton of outtakes or surplus material from the SO TOUGH/HOLLAND era. They really should have held back SO TOUGH to make a double album, but hindsight is 20/20.

 Most of 15 BIG ONES was recorded Jan-May 1976; I don't buy into the "hodge podge" theory with that one or MIU or LA really. Most bands with a history bring some older material to the table when it comes time to record a new album. Much of EMOTIONAL RESCUE consisted of SOME GIRLS castoffs (it showed) and nearly all of TATTOO YOU was the result of a good closet cleaning, which came out sounding pretty good IMO.

Well so tough minus mess of help & marcella is such a weak album and only the most meticulous completiats would acquire it know/ subjective or not I say holland was the true followup to surfs up.

"Carl's Song" from September (?) 1975 is an embryonic version of "ACH".

See, the thing is... not only was it released with those two tracks (in my cosmos, anyway), but it was also released between Surf's Up and Holland.

I believe that's what's know as an inconvenient truth. Probably.

Also, not everyone feels the other songs on So Tough are weak.

It took me quite some time to make a connection between those two.  ;D

I strive for opacity.