The Smiley Smile Message Board

Even if Denny had cleaned up and lived, does anyone think that those two could have ever patched things up to the point where there wasn't going to be frequent tension, butting of heads, and deep dissatisfaction, one way or another? If Shawn was still not going to be recognized by Mike, that issue alone would be a huge obstacle, I would think (even post breakup).

And artistically, I think that even a clean Dennis was going to be frustrated as hell at the jukebox direction that the band went down in the 80s and 90s. The way Al got frustrated? I think even a clean Dennis would have been frustrated much more, and would have been MUCH more consistently vocal about it, plus would have been more empowered to do something about it, with him being a Wilson vs a relatively less-empowered Jardine. I cannot imagine Mike would be happy about that.

Maybe Denny, even if he objected to the "artistic" benefits of the eventual addition of the cheerleaders, would have probably just had his way with them anyway, and Denny/Mike for that reason could perhaps have agreed on their inclusion, but otherwise I'm not sure where any lasting common ground would have been. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Mike would have been super frustrated and unhappy with someone else in the band who could have better aligned a power struggle against the Mike-preferred direction. Despite the fact that Denny and Mike had successfully collaborated in the 70s, I tend to doubt that many subsequent types of Mike/Denny collabs would have occurred if Denny had lived - maybe a few, but probably the exceptions and not the rule; I'd think the creative differences (not to mention personal differences, even sans drug use) would just have continued to grow. What does everyone think?

Well, it clearly matters little since history didn't play out that way, but blood is thicker than water.

I think they could've.
Even though Mike has been known to speak of ill of Dennis, and even Brian, the Beach Boys truly are a family, and I believe, had he lived, Denny would've been on the C50 tour, but would probably not tour with Mike+Bruce. I think he'd be doing solo albums, or maybe singing with Brian's band. He sure did love Brian.

Yes, if Denny had gotten clean they would have patched things up.  I think Mike's biggest problem with Denny is he was killing himself with drugs and booze.  But could Denny have ever cleaned up? The man made some beautiful music, but wow, what a hedonist.

They were both very alpha guys. I think Dennis should have left the band after POB. If he had focused 100% on music he might have gotten himself together.

If the Dennis-Shawn relationship had never happened, I can see it. But I don't know if they ever could have gotten past that.

Had Dennis still been around I think he would either have gone it alone or perhaps joined Brian. Of course it would have changed the balance of the Beach Boys votes too. Had Dennis and Al voted with Brian, perhaps they would have had the name. Hard to imagine Mike and Bruce being as successful without the name of the Beach Boys  but perhaps they would have still tried to keep it going.

Considering Mike still apparently has varying degrees of problems having a sunshine-y relationship with Brian and Al, and especially considering what the end of C50 showed us, while it indeed matters not one bit considering how things went down with Dennis, I'd guess that Dennis and Mike probably never would have fully overcome whatever BS was between them. As with Brian or Al or C50, there may have been some "up" times when the tension and acrimony was put aside or suppressed.

But considering how much some of these guys *haven't* overcome personality BS and ego and all of that after 53+ years in the business, I wouldn't feel comfortable assuming Dennis and Mike would have been more likely to overcome all of that.

Well they wrote some great stuff together - though I don'y know if Mike ever got in a room with Dennis...  :lol

I agree that Dennis likely wouldn't be in current version of The Beach Boys. 

Dennis wrote a lot of ballads in the 70s, and between Brian's classic ballads, and the ones Dennis brought to the table, I think that would be too much for Mike and his primarily upbeat surf / car shows. 

And I think Dennis would've grown tired of getting to sing lead on only one song per night like he did towards the tail end. 

Dennis sold his vote to cover debts several years before he died. He had no say at a corparate level which is why his estate doesn't get to vote on BRI related issues today while Carl's does.

I was about to make the same point but then remembered that Dennis' share was sold just after his death by his estate. I get the impression that times were hard for all of them around this time (except Bruce!). Mike filed for bankruptcy, I think, in 1983.
Maybe if Dennis had cleaned up and toured, his debts could have been cleared, although I don't know how much he was in debt at the time of his death.

I like to think that he would have continued until Carl's death and then joined Brian's band and been involved in the C50 tour
Can you imagine a 68 year old clean shaven Dennis singing YASB at The Albert Hall?

In terms of overcoming any issues with Mike, he loved him as his cousin but creatively, I think he would have hated what the BBs became in the late 80s onwards.
Apart from the cheerleaders.
And the Baywatch actresses.

He definitely would have hated Home Improvement!

I think Dennis would've hit on the cheerleaders, Baywatch actresses, and that girl who played Heidi on Home Improvement. 

I wonder if he would've been able to repair the damage done to his voice.  If so, we may have seen a transformation of Dennis's voice similar to Brian's. 

I hate to say it, but I think if Denny hadn't drowned he would have died at some point later on, possibly a few years later. I wouldn't have thought he would have been able to change too much the way he was headed. :(

I'm almost certain that Dennis and Brian would have gotten even closer if he had managed to live into the mid-90's and beyond. I can't even imagine a world where there both alive and Carl isn't though. :-\

I doubt that Mike could ever fully get over that Dennis had fooled around with his wife, if that rumor is true, and I wouldn't blame Mike.  But if Dennis had fully cleaned himself up and been a productive songwriter, and made major contributions to the recording side of the group, they might have had a working relationship, albeit a strained one.

I tend to agree with this statement, sad as it is. I wonder what Mike's feelings were regarding that relationship.

Does anyone think that a cleaned-up Dennis and Mike could have had a non-strained and artistically compatible relationship in the 1980s and beyond? Curious what Kokomoaists think about that. I just don't think it could have been possible, since Denny was so forward-pushing in his art - unless that progressive urge in him would have greatly subsided had he had gotten sober and lived, which I find unlikely. I think that something would have had to give, and that one of them would have exited the band either willingly or not, over creative and /or personal differences - or if not, then there would have been endless head-butting, with both men unhappy working with each other. I'd love to think that Denny could have gotten Mike to never have gone down the SIP road, and gotten more progressive material out of him, but I'm not sure that would have happened. Damn, I wish all the Wilson bros were still around.

Well in Gaines book, it does say how Dennis was torn over his relationship with Shawn, he loved Gage but knew Shawn was some bad news. Very sad chapter of Dennis's life, I wonder what happened to Chris Clark?

It would've been interesting to see Denny's reaction to Mike's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame speech  :lol

the lawsuits too, considering how protective he was of Brian. Especially the 2004 one, I can see that igniting a big public feud between the two.

True but we're discussing an alternative scenario where Dennis had survived and that survival would realistically depend on Dennis having cleaned up his act several years in advance of 1983.

I think as soon as Dennis psychically attacked Mike in front of thousands of people at that 1979 show, relations between them were pretty much screwed beyond repair.

Didn't he fool around with evdryone's wife and wouldn't Mike have just moved in to another one?

Plus when they went off stage before coming back on, someone *cough Mike cough* kicked Denny in the balls   :o

Yeah, and it's too damn bad that Denny didn't finish the job.  >:D

Slightly incorrect: Dennis' estate sold his vote back to BRI after his death in exchange for a reduction of his debts.

Ahhh, it was his boat he sold to pay off debts.

What exactly did that ultimately mean when he sold his vote back? No one party/person at BRI absorbed that vote, right? That vote essentially evaporated then?

Not slightly incorrect. Incorrect and contrary to the point that Mike's Beard was trying to make to invalidate what I had suggested.

This is an interesting point too.

It would be interesting the direction the Beach Boys may have gone if Dennis lived and retained his vote. Perhaps Dennis, Carl and Al could have found a common vision for the group. I wonder if Dennis would have talked the other guys into giving power of the Beach Boys back to Brian in the late 90s? Which, looking at it today would have been incredible! Think about it. With Brian's backing band, the Beach Boys touring Pet Sounds and Smile. That Lucky Old Sun as a Beach Boys album, etc.

Also, didn't Brian sell his vote to Mike in the late 70s? When did Brian get his vote back?

Fair enough but even if Dennis had not drowned it's a near certainty he would still have had to sold his share in the foreseeable future to cover debts. His liver was toast and I'd be stunned if he had any sort of healthcare in place. Liver transplants and the followup medication he would need to take for the rest of his life don't come cheap.

The vote yes but I'm guessing that it also meant any money BRI made would be divided up as a four way split instead of 5.

That's fair enough too but in the hypothetical scenario suggested by the question it is obvious that Dennis would not only have had to survive but clean up his act in order to have been capable of being an effective part of the band. And had he cleaned up his act, I would guess that he would be more likely to vote with Brian and Carl than with Mike and Al.

I wonder how Denny's kids have been taken care of financially? You would think that if any of the kids are getting anything, they would be included, or someone would sue.

To a point, sure.  Mike hates Al, but yet they toured the world together a few years ago.  They hate each other again, but they could probably patch it up if they had to. 

Mike has bad mojo with all kinds of people, just because he and Dennis butted heads doesn't mean it'd be any different. 

"Does anyone think Denny + Mike could have overcome creative/personal issues? "

No.