The Smiley Smile Message Board

Quoting myself on Brian's board:


Or maybe you'd like to speculate.

Hi all,


God Only Knows.  Also, the livng Beach Boys know why.  Maybe it is an ancient Beach Boys secret. 

He was the drummer in a band where every member sang and at least three of them were better at doing it than him. How many leads was he supposed to have?

More than, what, 3? But he got more than anyone but Mike and Brian in those early years. So you could say he was 3rd on the lead vocal depth chart. I'd also say he could have outdone Mike on a few songs.

When you have the unfortunate luck of being in a band that contains the heavenly voices of Brian and Carl Wilson; as well as Mike's iconic voice and Al supreme vocals, you aren't going to get much of a look in.

remember though that
A) in the early years Carl wasn't too keen on doing lead vocals, and his voice took time to develop
B) Al was the non-family member in a family business, plus he wasn't a member for the first few albums anyway, and after that probably took some time to be recognised by fans. it would be like Blondie immediately getting lead vocal spots. (OH WAIT)
C) Dennis was the fans' favourite.

As pointed out, Carl wasn't singing leads in those early years. So one might ask why Dennis got any leads at all. And if his few leads were quite good, as I think they were, why didn't he get more? Maybe Brian knows.  

That's true but in the earlier years Brian and Mike pretty much had the monopoly on lead vocal performances. Maybe Brian thought his brothers voices were too underdeveloped at their younger ages for him to get the sound he wanted?

Edit: Oops, I was responding to unreleased backgrounds

Well he could have had at least one more but couldn't be bothered because checking out his new surfboard was more important (?) - feel free to kick my ass if i've got that story wrong.
I'd have thought very carefully about giving him a lead after In The Back Of My Mind - one of Brian's best backing tracks but a total duffer on Today thanks to the terrible vocal.
On the flipside i'd love to have heard his take on Cabin Essence which i'm sure i read he was meant to sing (unless that referred only to the Truck Driving Man section).

I think Dennis sang ITBOMM exactly as Brian wanted it. It is a teen angst type song and sung by Dennis with that in mind. Those lyrics needed an edgy vocal and Dennis was just the guy to supply it. The double vocal is really what got messed up. I'm sure Dennis found it difficult to duplicate during the second pass.

If Brian didn't think it was up to scratch he wold have probably had someone else do it (ITBOMM).

Another thing to consider is that it may have been more difficult for Dennis to sing and play drums live on some of the songs so Brian probably felt it was more natural for a guitar player/Mike to replicate the studio vocals live.  There weren't many singing drummers at that time (and still aren't relatively speaking).

And maybe after Dennis went surfing rather than sing his lead on Summmer Days! Brian felt he had blew his chance and didn't ask him again!

It actually makes a lot of sense for Brian to have thought of Denny for lead on You're So Good to Me... it's such a simple beat (maybe the most simple beat in the entire BB catalog?) and would be the ideal song for a drummer to easily and naturally be able to sing/play simultaneously in concert.

I kind of like the fact he didn't sing more. It makes the songs he did sing more awesome.

I never really 'got' 'In the Back of My Mind' until I heard Brian's 'take' on it with 'No Pier Pressure'.  The 'Today' version is weak and unworthy.  Denny on the other hand wasn't.  He should have had MORE leads...at Mikes expense.  Sorry folks but the weakest voice in the group from 1964 until this very day was and is Mike's.  [although Brian was in dire straits for a LONG period of time...but wasn't really in the group then...now was he?]
Never Learn Not To Love and Little Bird just both blew me away.  I was thinking underutilized or WHAT...and then they did utilize him...and then they turfed his 2 GREAT contributions to Surf's Up...ruining the album [to a degree...at least by comparison to what it could have been] and also the relationship and ultimately Denny.

Assholes...really.  They SHOULD have f***ed with the formula.

I tend to agree. If Mike had done more leads in his singing style on Meant For You, I think he'd be a bit more highly regarded, and be considered as a more well-rounded, diverse type of singer. It would be quite interesting to know if that MFY voice was a style that he was encouraged to try out by Brian, if Mike just wasn't given many opportunities to sing in that fashion, or if he personally didn't really feel like going in that direction more often because of an affinity for the old sound.  The more Mike amped up with the nasal "young Mike" sound on studio recordings into the late 70s/80s, the more it became weak sauce IMO, and sounded like he was trying too hard. Cool Head, Warm Heart is another Mike vocal that works quite well, since he just chills it out a bit.

He Could have sung lead on the ones he wrote/co-wrote...

4th of July
All I Want To Do
It's About Time
Only With You
San Miguel
Steamboat

Dennis turfed his own 2 songs off of Surf's Up, not they.

Yes...and no.

Yes...I agree that Mike had more to deliver than what we got..  But those nasal attempts at some of the rock 'n' roll stuff would have worked WAY better with Denny BEFORE the punch to the throat.  Mike got some leads by default...or by the fault of someone giving in...to Mike.  [or the voting triumvirate]

Dennis should have been given his due on Surf's Up.  THEN he wouldn't have pulled important product from the package.  It was, in MY opinion...the beginning of the end.  Yes there was other shyte...but when your own turn on you...well...that's another ballgame.  [that no one wants to play]

How is Dennis' voice the weakest in the group when it was his voice that made the harmonies sound so strong?  Even when it was just he, Carl and Al on "Wishing You Were Here" it sounded like all of the BB were on there.  He got the short end of the stick for the Surfs Up album; they could've at least put one of his songs on there but instead we get "Take a Load off Your Feet" and that crappy version of "Riot Cell Block #9". Sometimes, Mike's nasally voice actually makes me cringe, I'd rather listen to Dennis' "post kick in the throat" songs than Mike's over the top nasally vocals.

Dennis improved as time went by but his vocals on the early albums are rather rough.

Maybe Dennis didn't want to do very many lead vocals. He was originally supposed to sing lead on Sail On Sailor, but he walked out of the sessions after a couple of takes so he could go surfing. Maybe he just wasn't very interested in singing leads.

Why didn't Dennis have more lead vocals? That would be a good question for the writer, producer, and arranger on most of the songs - Brian Wilson. Maybe we could ask Brian that question the next time he stops by. I'm sure he'll give an enlightening answer.

I don't think anyone can do better on Mike's leads than Mike himself. On most of the songs he sang lead on, least.

My impression is that Dennis entered the group through the back door, and he paid for it most of his life, in every department, including the leads.

You do realize that for Dennis to have included his songs on the album then WIBNTLA would have had to end the album. That was the crux of the issue. When he lost on that decision, he pulled his songs. I believe his songs would have been included had he worked with Carl and accepted that Surf's Up would be the album closer.

I know about that, I just didn't want to say it again because I've ranted about that before.  They had no problem supporting Brian, but they didn't want to give that same love and support to Dennis and that's what angers me the most.  His songs were the closet things to Brian's but was shut down by the Love camp and even Brian himself sometimes.  And now Carl of all people?  But then again in the 90s, Carl had to fight to get Dennis' songs put on the compilation album, and for MIC fans had to petition to get WIBNTLA released.  Just the thought of that...

Why blame other people for Dennis' own decision to pull his songs?

The Beach Boys had a really good problem on their hands with the amount of vocal ability.  So much so, that there's constant debate of who should've sang what. 

I know people complain about Mike's singing, but I think he was a pretty good singer during the creative years (62-73).  Unfortunately, he settled into nasal self parody around 15 Big Ones.  And ,by that point, Dennis's voice, and sadly his health, both were starting to go downhill. 

And the reason Dennis pulled the songs?  A decision which impacted negatively on how Dennis viewed the package from a creative angle and as a result...Dennis pulled his tunes.  Both sides blew it...with Dennis turning out to be the long term loser.  No reason why his song couldn't have followed 'Til I die.  NO resaon why Surf's Up couldn't have led off the album...closed side one or led off side 2.

Generally I like the WIN/WIN choice over the LOSE/LOSE  'option'  every time.

I know...I'm a dreamer.

The answer to the topic question is pretty simple. Because his voice was rougher than the other guys. That doesn't mean it wasn't good. But the Beach Boys sound usually relied on sweetness, or at minimum smoothness. Dennis' voice was neither. However, as previously stated, Brian inserted Dennis' sandpaper texture into the harmonies and the result improved the Beach Boys sound, gave them some subtle balls, while the obvious things in the foreground remained smooth and sweet. But the Dennis husk was huge in the emotional impact of the harmonies, and it's very prevalent on most of their best songs. When it's not there the Beach Boys become more precise and less soulful, more perfect and less human. IMO Dennis was the secret weapon lurking within the Beach Boys stacks, and don't think for a minute that Brian didn't know it. It was hard to control, and probably frustrating, but when it worked it gave the Beach Boys a unique power they otherwise did not have.

That being said...I find it funny that a guy who sang lead, or parts of leads, on more than 20 Beach Boys songs seems left out. I know there are some excellent singers, from some really famous and successful bands who never got anywhere near 20 leads.

Carl was the producer and he wanted Surf's Up to close the album. His decision was final. What Dennis did was classic cutting off your nose to spite your face.

True...and...Carl was wrong.

"This Car of Mine" is such a good song and vocal. I can't believe this song doesn't get enough praise and commentary.

"In the Back of My Mind" is easy to discount but it has a magnificent backing track and those final organ notes combines with "it will always beee" are perfect together. Yes, the double tracking is off (in the mono version) and it shouldn't have been too hard to get a decent double track on it (which can be pretty tough I will admit).  I have a feeling that Brian was just happy that Dennis sat still long enough to sing it twice.

Referring to Dennis's contributions to vocal stack, yes, the backing harmonies have so much more edge to them and tension.  Listen to "Help Me, Rhonda" and listen to how Dennis gives it so much soul and emotion. Not to mention "Don't Worry Baby," "Car Crazy Cutie," and others I can't think of at the moment.

My voice is similar to Dennis's in a lot of way so a lot of the times I like to double his part when I'm cruising in the car. It is so cathartic singing those parts.

I have to say I do like how Surf's Up closes the album of the same name, it seems like the end of a chapter in Beach Boys history in many ways. You have the last representation of SMiLE from the classic era as well as a trio of Brian compositions. There's just something final about ending it that way, I think Carl made a good decision in that respect. (But goshdarn do I wish those Dennis tracks were there instead of Student Demonstration Time and Lookin' At Tomorrow.)

No reason why Dennis couldn't have given in, either. If the album was to be named Surf's Up, then Carl made the correct decision to end the album with it. On all of the Smile threads that's all I read about is how everyone believes the song closes the album. It is that type of song.

I think Dennis was the worst singer in the group, and didn’t become very good at all until 70s. I don’t think he should have had more lead vocals. If anything, he should have had less.

I would never say his singing was worse than Mike's, Brian's (from the mid-70's onwards), Bruce or even Al...

I prefer Dennis´adult voice, from the 70´s, much more soul and perfect rasp.

Heard God Only Knows live from 1972  in Carnegie Hall?
Dennis sings Bruce´ line in the coda. You´ll understand what im talking about when you hear it.

I'd say pulling your songs because you didn't like the proposed tracklisting order was wrong. What if Al insisted that Lookin' At Tomorrow closed the album? Would he be right to pull his 3 songs when Carl said no? What if Bruce demanded that Disney Girls go last or they couldn't have it? Fight to have your artistic say by all means but don't take your ball and go home when you don't get your own way, that's not how bands work. Dennis was a hot headed guy and I bet he regretted holding his songs for ransom later on, especially when Surf's Up sold significantly more copies then Sunflower did.

True, but perhaps Dennis felt that the song Surf's Up even being on the album was questionable, and possibly exploitative of SMiLE as a piece of art, as Brian seemed to feel too(though he later relented on). Maybe Dennis picked up on that early resistance of Brian's and was just pissed about it.

But even if he was being hot-headed, and it was totally a regretful action in hindsight, I can see how WIBNTLA especially very specifically would have been conceived as an album closer, with the rebirth theme... just as much as Our Prayer was conceived specifically as an album opener. It was important to them as artists, since these were very, very personal and deep artistic statements they were making.

I think I've read before that Dennis didn't think they should be focusing on a 5 year old song. Thank God he was overruled or we wouldn't have a completed band version of Surf's Up! I like WIBNTLA but it can't compare to Surf's Up - what can?

Could the fact that, when he was the drummer, he didn't sing in concerts be a reason?

I too have mixed feelings about the use of SU as a standalone track on that album. I adore the living sh*t out of the track, but to know that the artist's intentions and wishes were compromised/modified makes me feel a bit odd about it, in context.

I can see Denny's point, absolutely. He was primarily about pushing forward, artistically speaking - and he took it seriously as hell.  

The song holds up today and it certainly held it's own in 1971. A great song is a great song and besides when it was released it was new to everyone who bought the record and listened to it. I guess Mike wasn't the only one to disagree with Van Dyke Parks. ;)

Plus, Dennis sang "Help Me Rhonda" better than Al ever did...sorry Al fans, I still like the original, it's a classic, but after hearing 3 live versions of Dennis' version...  Jack Reily and Ed Roach have said that there was jealousy within the group toward him during that time.  It seems that they were giving him backlash on Surfs Up for no reason.  I actually don't blame him for taking his songs off, he had every reason to be pissed.

Noticed your Dennis quote. Had he heeded it maybe we fans wouldn't have had to wait 20+ years for 4th of July and 40+ years for WIBNTLA. Great songs need not sit in a vault. Both were worth the wait, though. :)

Yes, not just in the loss of the songs that were left off the album and buried, but in the damage that Dennis could've done to brother Brian. Carl was trying to assemble arguably the greatest trifecta of Brian Wilson songs ever to close an album, and Dennis wasn't sensitive to what those songs/that ending could've done (positively) to Brian's reputation and self esteem. Is it possible that Dennis didn't realize how sensitive and fragile Brian was at that time, not realizing his hot-headedness could've sent Brian back to his room! Is it possible, is it possible CenturyDeprived, that Dennis could've been a little less greedy and selfish and thought about his brothers instead of himself?

Hardy har har.

I highly doubt that Denny was being "greedy and selfish" considering that BRIAN himself did not want SU on the record... but, Brian was talked/pushed/coerced into it, or depending how you feel, just went ahead and said ok in the end (yes, even doing a touch of vocal arranging on the tag, I'm well aware), but I don't think it's ever been established that Brian at the time was particularly vocally enthusiastic, happy, and about the tune being on the album, has it? He went along and did it, and maybe it was for the best ultimately. One thing I do not know, is where in the timeline of putting together the album, recording the song SU, talking Brian into the band using/finishing SU, etc, the decision was made where Denny took his songs off the record.

Bottom line is that I would tend to think that maybe it was more about being supportive of his brother's original wishes, and less about trying to actively push Brian out of the spotlight. I would think that Brian and Denny perhaps like mindedly questioned the appropriateness of the SU song in that context.

Denny had a pretty huge habit of supporting Brian's wishes. In fact, I can't conceive of an instance in the band's history where Denny was actively trying to hog the spotlight in terms of trying to "greedily" use his own studio songs to squeeze out his brothers' studio songs, so I think your assumption, whether sarcastic, half-joking in intention or not, falls pretty flat.

If one wants to talk about somebody trying to actively warp/sink an artist's intention for a song on the SU record, I think one should observe the case of the almost-was (but thankfully not) "positive" spin that was urged, recorded, then for the love of all that is good in this world - dropped - for the Til I Die lyrics, arguably considered amongst the very finest of Brian's works in its final un-f*cked-with (and "heaven forbid", melancholy) form.

Would have changing the word 'lost' to 'found' my way really have made much difference either way?

It's all in the eye of the beholder, but I'm gonna go ahead and say a rousing hell yes; I find that knowing what Brian was going through at that time, to hear "I've lost my way" makes a huge difference, and makes a huge statement in my mind. It's crushing to hear those words from that specific artist, along with "it killed my soul".

I always felt deeply impacted by those specific final-version lyrics, long before I ever knew of the existence of the alternate version.

How about if we changed God Only Knows' opening lyrics to "I surely always love you"... would that have made much of a difference? Um... yeah, it would!

Absolutely! And overall Mike's vocal intonation in concert today is far better than in the late 70s and the 80s when he was trying too hard to mimic his younger voice. He sounds great on so much of the earlier classic stuff, as well as stuff like Meant for You and Cool Head, Warm Heart.

Absolutely again! Dennis' contribution to the vocal stack is often unappreciated, but was a critical element in adding depth and character to the BBs sound. For me the pinnacle of his vocal contributions as a lead singer occurred during the period from the late 60s thru the mid seventies. While Surf's Up is the obvious closer to that album, I find it inexplicable that Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again didn't see release sometime in the seventies. I've heard a lot of conjecture as to the reasons WIBNTLA did not see the light of day for ages, but would love to hear known factual info as to why it took over 40 years for WIBNTLA to see official release.

I think the reason the band members wouldn`t have fought for Dennis`s material in the same way they fought for Brian`s is obvious. They knew that including Brian`s songs could help them to shift records (and in the case of Surf`s Up it did). They knew that Dennis`s stuff would be unlikely to help them as, irrespective of quality, his songs generally appeared on albums that were commercial failures (I`ve said it before but even Al`s contributions did more to help the band`s sales than Dennis`s tunes).

If he wanted to take his bat and ball home then I certainly don`t consider the other band members to be in the wrong for not fighting over it.

In the early 1960s I think Brian made the right choices 99% of the time when deciding who should take the leads.

And if Dennis elected not to sing Sail on Sailor or some of his own material then that was up to him.

Doesn't the way they promote songs have to do with that too?  I've read comments saying that if Slip On Through had been promoted right, it probably would've made the charts.  Add Some Music To Your Day was successful, but did they ever perform that in concert?  You Are So Beautiful was co written by Dennis and people are still singing that song to this day and that shows that Dennis wasn't incapable of making a commercial song.  Has anyone ever done a cover of Surf's Up?

The impression I had, was that Murry kept Dennis "down" and might explain the small number of leads, since Murry ran the show for a long time.   But Dennis did a great job on the ones where he had a lead.  He might not have had confidence in his vocal skills, and not given the proper encouragement to sing a lead more often.  Dennis was not without vocal talent.  ;)