The Smiley Smile Message Board

My wife & I were discussing Brian's past today; actually, we were talking about someone we know who is going through some "problems", and anyway somehow the subject of Brian came up. Got me to thinking.  I'm sure Peter's new book will answer most of these questions, but just in case...

1. Brian started smoking weed in 1964, and dropped acid in 1965, right? When did he progress to the harder stuff? I read somewhere that Danny Hutton is the one who gave him coke, but I don't really know when.

2. Besides weed, coke, acid, speed, and coke, what else did he use, and when? I know that right there is enough, but still...

3. Was Bruce the only BB who remained clean, or did he too get on the wagon, even for a little bit?

4. It's now known that Carl had his own issues in the mid-to-late 70s. Did this happen before or after his divorce from Annie?

5. When exactly did Brian relapse? Was it before or after Love You?

6. When did Brian *stop* for good? I know Landy got him again in 1982, but Landy too was a coke user. The way the Wilson Project book makes it seem, Brian was still going through some sort of withdrawls as late as 1986...at least, that's what Gary Usher makes it sound like. I'm sure it was something that Landy gave him.



edit

I said "coke" twice on number 2. D'Oh. I meant "alcohol".

This is one area of BB research I don't like, but it cannot be ignored.

1. I'm thinking the coke started in the early 70s, but for no real reason.

2. Brian was certainly doing heroin as well (not injecting) by the mid-70s

3. I've never heard of anyone so much as even hinting that Bruce has ever done any drugs at all.

4. Carl's 70s smack habit was a direct concequence of his collapsing marriage - began in about 1975, peaked in 1978. As we've all seen and heard.  :-\

5. Pretty much when two thing shappened almost simultaneously - Landy got fired and his replacement was killed in a rock climbing accident. the change in Brian from April 1977 to fall that year is alarming. He got big again real quick.

6. This a a gross oversimplification, but Landy essentially kept Brian under control with Thorazine, topping him up with uppers when a public appearence was required. I think this stopped after the practise was brought to light when Brian was scheduled for a facelift and the surgeon nearly had a fit when he saw the pre-op blood tests.

I'm sure others can correct and expand on the preceding

See, my understanding had been that Brian started right around Wild Honey, but that probably is wrong.

The shrink that died...wasn't his name Steve something? Switzer, Shwartz, something like that.

So Carl started in 75? I wonder if that had anything to do with how 15 BO turned out, and indeed the rest of their career. By the time he had cleaned up, Mike already had control of the band...

"1. I'm thinking the coke started in the early 70s, but for no real reason.

2. Brian was certainly doing heroin as well (not injecting) by the mid-70s"

There was a suggestion by Peter Ames Carlin on this board somewhere that Murry's death triggered off Brian's decline - and Dennis' too.  Suppose this might account for the coke and heroin.

Thanks - Steve Schwartz it was. No relation to Loren, thankfully. For some reason I was thinking Sol Samuels.

Who is Sol Samuels? Name sounds familiar...


Yeah, I think the same thing about Brian. I think what compounded Dennis's problem in addition to his father's death  was the hand injury.

I always had a feeling that Dennis had his first touches with "hard" drugs thorugh Manson. But that doesn't mean he did it regularly of course....

Whisky a Go Go; November 16, 1968 to be exact

I could slap him for that. I wonder if he ever feels any guilt...



Maybe not at first, but he sure got on that train real quick...

Here is my opinion based on what I have read
Bruce probably never did anything but perhaps trying weed once or twice if that. Same goes for Al.

Mike, Carl and Dennis started weed about late 65 Dennis a little later then Carl, Brian or Mike because his first wife explained that being straight was a way he could get on Murry's good side. I don't buy the stories that Dennis did it as a teen because I have an interview where he denies taking drugs by 64. Mike Carl and Dennis were doing LSD by 66 but I think Mike stopped drugs in the fall of 68.Perhaps doing a little weed in the early 70s.

Here is where it gets sticky. We know Brian did weed by 12-64. We know he did LSD by 4-65. Speed probably was done by them all on the road but Brian really go into it by the time of Smile. The 1968 coke day is from Brian's dubious book. That seems that it could be right, but I don't see his songwriting begin to seriously dry up until 71-2. I didn't read of any post Smile drug incidents until some stories about need help getting dressed at a session for Holland. So I think 72 would be when Brian became an addict. By 74 heroin was on the scene. I think Brian was fairly straight in 76, but I think he started back on Coke by 1-77 because there is a concert I have from then (not the Aussie one) where all the Wilson’s seem strung out (w Dennis the best actually). We know 78-62 may be his worst drug period. I read in Rolling Stone in 1988 that Brian had an occasional joint. I think he was fairly straight after 82 though. One other exception is Brian at Ringo's 1998 birthday party. He is drunk or stoned to the point he can't sing.

Carl probably got straight after 78. I have heard rumors of smack but I was under the assumption (because of the Gaines book) that it was coke not smack. He and Dennis both tried coke or H around the Manson era, but it didn't seem to be a habit at that time. By 72-3 I am sure there was coke around but it does not seem to have really hurt them until the end of 76. Dennis was drink and drug free for a short period around 75, but then got much worse.  Dennis most likely was on heroin after trying it again 12-31-77 and if Andrew has a good source I guess Carl went on it too. We know how Dennis' story ends.

The Beach Boys drug use was not limited to Brian or Dennis.

Carl used heroin during the late '70s (around  '77-78) and really had an on and off probelm with alcohol for most of his life after that. Carl was a heavy drinker in his later years. He also was a heavy, heavy smoker until the late '80s - early '90s.

Brian of course used everything. He smoked pot, dropped acid, cranked himself up on speed and brought himself down with seconal during the making of PS/SMiLE.  Danny Hutton introduced him to coke in 1968 and Brian also started drinking heavly around this time (as booze tends to take the "edge" off).  Brian started to use heroin in late '73, stopped in 1975 (due to Landy) and then started to use again in late '77 til early 1983 when he again entered Landy's program.  During all of these times he continued using other drugs as well.  Coke seemed to be his drug of chioce along with alcohol .  Food was also a drug to Brian as well.

Al seemed to side-step the drug problems as did Bruce.  Mike (as he himself as said) smoked pot (by some accounts, alot of it) during the late '60s early '70s. Mike is even caught on camera taking a drag during an instrumental break of a song on the uncut Live From Central Park concert from 1972 (see Endless Harmony's Heroes And Villains live to see which concert this is).

Dennis used everything including the carpet fibers from the floor. He never seemed to have had a chance in his life.

Al smoked weed, too. There is a passage in Jon Stebbins' book on Dennis about this.


WHAT?! What was the exact quote, if you can?

I don't have the quote, but I recall reading an interview around that period that Brian was allowed to have some pot and a glass of wine once in awhile.  He wrote "Love and Mercy" while slightly buzzed on wine.  When he performed "Smile" in San Francisco a couple of years ago, he had a glass of beer around his keyboard, so he still drinks a little bit.  He drank very little of the beer, though.  He's a grown up.  He's allowed.

I wonder if he still smokes weed. I doubt it though;don't think Melinda would allow that.

I know he still drinks beer; there was an interview last year where he mentioned something about enjoying a tall glass of beer and some grilled salmon, or something like that.

My kinda guy...

Basically the quote was "except for the occaisinal toke of pot Brian is clean"

Remember the RS article well. Pictures of Landy and Brian in deck chairs by a pool. The interviewer was surprised about Brians admission of still doing weed and wondered if Landy knew.

You're wrong on when Carl quit smoking -- by the time I met him in 1984, he wasn't smoking. So it was sometime between 1982 and 1984 when he quit. I'm highly allergic to smoke and that's why I noticed.

As for Carl's drinking, I only witnessed him sipping a little champaigne one afternoon, so I can't speak for that. I've heard people say he could tie one on at late-night parties -- and then there's the confessional line from his song "Time," "I quit smoking, but I drink too much. Don't try to analyze me."


Carl definitely got straight after ‘78. You can see the change in him physically -- he loses weight, his eyes are more focused and alert. He's a stronger performer, too.

Bruce says that he and Al didn't do any drugs, and I am inclined to believe him.

There's video tape evidence of Al and Dennis getting stoned together. Ask Jon S about it.

He told Myrna to write that ?  8)

Yeah, the writing credits say "Waite/Gladstone", according to a certain scholar...

Jon Stebins' book says they look stoned there is no evidence of them doing it on film. Its just their goofy clothes shop scene. I don't think they were myself but who knows or cares. I think the article indicated Landy "let" Brian do pot once in a blue moon. Too much of the crap about Audree, Carl, and even Dennis comes from the Landy-Todd Gold book. A very suspect source to say the least. I know its also the only place the claims Diane and Brian were having a full blown affair. Something the Gaines book denies.  Those stories will only die if Brian (and he should morally feel obligated) writes a new book discrediting the first one.

Well, some 23 years ago, I had the chance to right to the source - asked Diane about it, and she said yes. For good measure, the person sitting beside her nodded. I think Marilyn would know if anyone would.

Here's my defence - that's from a song called "Today", not "Time".  8)

"Well, some 23 years ago, I had the chance to right to the source - asked Diane about it, and she said yes. For good measure, the person sitting beside her nodded. I think Marilyn would know if anyone would."

You are a good source so I trust it, I don't trust Gold though that's why I wasn't convinced.

does anyone remember the old pet-sounds mailing list posts? about 8-9 years ago or so a person calling themselves "jack rieley" was posting often for a few weeks/months...can't remember for sure exactly how long. had lots of interesting stories to tell. now if this person was really jack he told about a couple of times how back in '71 he and carl would get high on coke, go running around town and swimming. this person went on to say that this drug use  was where the words "white puff" and "black puff" came from when they wrote "feel flows" during this time. made for interesting reading those posts did!!!

Al mentions in one of the books in 'Pet Sounds Sessions' box set that he wasn't invited to the playback sessions probably because he was too much of a goody and didn't want to smoke with them.
If he and Bruce did not do drugs it must have been hard to resist it being in the company of the rest of them who were, like in the tent for example.

Ever wonder why Dennis called Al a man waiting for a bus....?

I get the impression that in some way Al was always a bit of an outsider, esp. since he was a goody two shoes and not in the family.  But that also means that he had a stable financial setup and a stable life now as a result.

Yeah, you're correct. I knew the title didn't sound quite right when I typed it, but it was much too late at night to look it up. I know Carl didn't write the words, but they fit him much too well -- it becomes confessional in how he sings them. From what Phil Galdston says in his liner notes for the *Like a Brother* reissue, it sounds like he conferred with Carl on the lyrics.

LAB liner notes:
http://www.beachboysfanclub.com/lab.htm

Wasn't the copious drug use one of the reasons Bruce didn't go to Hawaii in 67? Turned out he was right.

If so, why did he participate in Smiley Smile ?
I believe Bruce was gone fishing with a friend...

Now that you mention it, are we sure that he did....?

I believe there's a pic somewhere from the Smiley-sessions where Carl and Bruce are seen.

That would be interesting to see, as I am not sure I have ever seen any pictures taken from the Smiley sessions.  Is there clear evidence to link those shots to Smiley as opposed to Wild Honey?

Nope....
I was thinking about the picture in the SS/WH-twofer where carl is holding the Rickenbacker...

That's Actually Smile era, from Western 3's control room.  Awesome picture.

All of the pix I have seen of the home studio are from the later incarnations.  I don't think I have ever seen any pix from the recording of SS or WH, and those would be fascinating to see if they exist.

I remember reading Badman's account, as we know not always perfect or free of plagiarism, but it states under "Musicians present" during the Smiley Smile seesions...Al, Brian, Carl, Dennis, sometimes Mike, but never Bruce. Just from memory, anyway.

I don't think Bruce is so innocent. You all know that his voice was on the sunshine psych-pop classic 45 "My World Fell Down" by Sagittarius (Usher/Boettcher). If you've heard that song, you'd know they are stoned on at least pot and probably LSD too.

Hmmm, and if this were the case, I suppose Bruce's claim that the only BB album he's not on after he joined the band was MIU would still stand because he would've contributed vocals to Heroes and Villains and Good Vibes and...

Why?  I just heard that album for the first time, and I don't hear signs that the vocalists were stoned while singing.  In fact, that doesn't sound at all like a drug song.  It may have been influenced by drugs, but that would be basically Gary Usher (Beottcher had nothing to do with it).  Glen Campbell was on it too -- are you saying he was on LSD while singing?  I have a hard time buying that.

Is Bruce on the "Our Prayer" session tape? 'Cause when Bri asks if they feel the acid, it sounds like Bruce replying. Although some speculate this is a put on....just like the Richard Nixon tapes, right?.....

I think Carl was the one who responded to the LSD. I have no doubt Our Prayer is genuine but Bruce did put out the first LSD 45 in 59 called LSD-25. I never heard it but he was a part of  the group (The Gamblers) who put it out.

I thought that this was a joke until I found this:

http://www.mountvernonandfairway.de/brucedis.htm

 :o

I guess that the name can't really be coincidence.

Isn't that Bruce singing "Close your eyes and lean back, listen to Wind Chimes" on SMILEY SMILE?

Have you heard the 45 version? Its obviously psych. If the A-side isn't evidence enough for you, listen to the fried out bongo/sitar instrumental that's on the B-side. Not LSD while singing, but its obvious that they've all used at least pot and probably lsd.

You can't tell if somebody has used drugs by listening to them sing.  Come on.

Glen Campbell used lots of drugs later in his career, mostly cocaine.  But that's when he was doing all those country songs.  No, I can't tell he was a cokehead when he sang "Southern Nights" or "Rhinestone Cowboy."

I don't mean to say Bruce did LSD for sure but it is interesting how early that song is. I also do think it could be him on Wind Chimes but the voice who sings that is so twisted it could have been any of them except Dennis.

Soooo... because Bruce sings on a kinda psychadoozy song - once -  he's a raving acid head ?

That's the most fucking stupid piece of logic I've ever heard, and that includes anything ever posted on the Bloo.

Os Mutantes didnt touch acid until the seventies but listen to their first two albums (1968 and 1969), one of their albums is even called (something like) I Am Tripping (ando meio desligado = literally, i walk disconnected).

Steppenwolf were clean too.

Maybe Bruce did, maybe he didnt, it doesnt change the music.

Bruce has always struck me as someone who would do anything for a paycheck. He probably looked at that song in the same light. Also, remember, this was *very* early on; I think seeing what Brian was going through scared him from even trying a joint for his whole life.

Only MIU? You mean he's on Holland?! Which song?

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't even think the song sounds that psychedelic. I first heard it years ago on a "60s Pop Hits" compilation CD, and I was listening, the only things that went through my mind were, "This is a pretty good pop song, nice singing, I like that part about winter and brown leaves," not "Man, this is so crazy, the singers were obviously on drugs!" Standard mid/late 60s pop.

Think he's mentioned several times they snuck him in the back door to add bvs to "California".

Isn't he on Sail on Sailor too?

Can't remember... possibly. I'll ask.

I think it is Dennis.  The "close your eyes and lean back" does sound very strange (probably because it's whispered), but "listen to wind chiiiiimes" sounds like him.

I realize, by the way, that most of the lines in it are split between two group members. 

Well, how come one of  his first songs (an instrumental, albeit) was called LSD-25? I don't think he'd name a song that for fun or by co-incidence.

You haven't heard Smiley Smile?  :lol

Just joking, I get it.  ;)

Why do you think he did more than just play piano on it?  The website I linked to didn't offer compositional credits for him, which means he probably didn't write it.  Or are you assuming that he had to drop acid to play piano for someone else's music.

Al told me he tried weed once or twice and it made him sleepy...he didn't like it. Mike smoked pot  some in '67/'68. Dennis may have been straight in '64/65 but he'd already smoked pot in'61/62 and he took reds in '62/63 as well...story about this in the Dave Marks book. Bruce was straight but liked to drink a bit. Dennis, Brian and Carl did everything and did it often...Carl got straight in 78.

I'm just saying that he was involved in that type of counter-culture movement of the time and therefore, there is a good chance he used it or was exposed to the drug in one form or another. If you disagree with me, that is fine. But I do not believe that either possibility (that he did or did not use) can be completely discredited by any of us. I'm simply offering some examples that could be used to support the case of drug use on Bruce's behalf.

More than one source has told me Dennis smoked "reefer" with his surfing buddies long before '66...probably '61 or '62...and its well established he had a little problem with some downers in '62/63...story is David's book details the incident, and basically it comes down to him hanging out with a "bad girl", not so much about experimentation or looking for a high. It does seems likely that he was straight as an arrow during the first couple of years he was with Carole 64/65...I believe he was. He shunned the initial '60's drug "scene"...but that avoidance was all over by '67.

Hey Jon, not that this has much to do with this topic, but I really enjoyed your book on Dennis when I read it last year. And since I saw you posting on the same post as me, I thought I'd acknowledge the fact that your book really helped me understand and appreciate Dennis' life as well as his music on a deeper level. So basically, good work.  :3d

Thanks L&M...Dennis was an awesome subject.

No, actually you're stating as a fact that, because the record sound psychedelic, they had to be doing psychedelic drugs when they recorded it. Allow me to refresh your memory (emphasis mine):

"I don't think Bruce is so innocent. You all know that his voice was on the sunshine psych-pop classic 45 "My World Fell Down" by Sagittarius (Usher/Boettcher). If you've heard that song, you'd know they are stoned on at least pot and probably LSD too.... Have you heard the 45 version? Its obviously psych. If the A-side isn't evidence enough for you, listen to the fried out bongo/sitar instrumental that's on the B-side. Not LSD while singing, but its obvious that they've all used at least pot and probably lsd."

You any kin to Domenic Priore ?  8)

Or saying that since Bruce played piano on a track written by someone else who was into LSD that Bruce must have done it too. 

By that logic, everyone in the Wrecking Crew who played on Good Vibrations was an acid head, and so were all of the Beach Boys.  It doesn't work.

Jon thanks for the great info again. You and Andrew both wrote superb books. (And I'm not just saying that for perhaps a free original Smile booklet)  :angel:

Pwned.

Although, at least everything is spelled correctly, unlike Priore...

All kidding aside, thanks Jon for clearing things up. I'm glad I started the original topic, because some old misconceptions are being cleared up, and can stop this question from ever being asked again except by someone totally new to the world of the Beach Boys.

I can respect Alan's feelings on the matter. He tried it, didn't like how it made him feel. It just wasn't his thing. At least his feelings on it were based in his own experience. Like I said, I respect that.

Mike, obviously DID like it for some time. I wonder what the impetus was for him to quit? He certainly LOOKED the part at times in the early 70s...

Ah, Charles, if only t'were thus...  On A. N. Other forum, I've just finished outlining to people who I wouldn't consider newbies at all, why a stereo mix of "GV" is currently (and most like permanently) impossible. For something like the 10th time in the last few years.

[sigh]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nah...this is Billy, not Charles. My username changing every couple of days in kind of me joking around in a friendly manner with Charles. My current username is actually the name of a song my group's working on. There's a part where my wife says into the mic " Welcome everyone to Master Raymond's Bait shop! We all have sorts of lures...live ones...dead ones...shrimps...worms...you name it! Stop on by! Tell all your friends, cause Raymond is the master baiter!" The rest of the song sounds like carnival music.

 :o

Mike quit because of TM. Maharishi had The Beatles stop too. (maybe that's why they left :p). All kiding aside I think being by The Wilsons and seeing them slowly go down probably chinched his decision.

Here's some more information on LSD-25: It was written by Derry Weaver, and was the B-side of his hit song "Moon Dawg". Bruce played keyboards on it as part of an assembled studio band, the Gamblers.

Derry Weaver as in...Nik Venet?!

Yep, I think Bruce played on Moon Dawg, too.

http://www.beefheart.com/datharp/albums/mbmembers/ingber.htm ; scroll down a little

It's a small world. I wonder who or what was influenced the acid.

Bruce at least LOOKs very stoned on that "Time To Get Alone" video segment from "American Band."

Saw a doc on Sundance channel recently that just killed me. It was called ROCK AND ROLL - THE DRUG YEARS (also ran as an edited version on VH1).

The film talked about drug use and how it has gone hand in hand with rock through out the years (from disco to punk to raves etc.)  What really just floored me (and has always bothered me about the '60s kiddies :smokin) is that numerous people interviewed said that all of the people that did drugs after the 60's were just looking to get high and f'ed up. But no one in the 60s was interested in getting high. They were only doing drugs to find a deeper awareness in their lives and they were pure in their drug use. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they had come forward and said that they were on a journey of self awareness but also like to just get f'ed up, I would respect them more. But everyone comes on like they are Mother Tersea and all of the following generations are just crap comparred to them. They were the mystic ones. Like Loren Daro and the rest of that group were mystic leaders. These guys could lead a dog with raw meat tied to their ass!!!

Well medically they dangers were not as well known but yeah most of it was to party. Perhaps LSD was supposed to help you be creative. Still even that was mostly to get off. Uppers and downers while touring may have not always been to get stoned.

Drug use was common in the entertainment industry for years before the 60's.  You just never got to hear about it.  Thesps were regularly 'treated' to inject life into performances and then to come down from them.  Some drugs took on different names, and LSD was the buzz for a while etc.  The 60's made it more mainstream.  I laughed at a recent programme I saw about America's history of drug use - Mr and Mrs Normal from middle America having a doob in the parlour and heating up their weed in the frying pan for an afternoon's social.  State legalisations made it more common, but the children of the 60's just decided to tap it because it allowed them to reduce personal responsibility (OK, that bit's IMO) and get naked and get high.  'Mystical wisdom' was an unfortunate by-product of people talking trash.
The Beach Boys were like a plethora of other rich Americans, it was there so use it.  Unfortunate really, even if it did provide some quality music.  Drugs are still common in entertainment, even if they don't talk about it.


'Fess up, Andrew.  You love it.  :D

A couple of things to remember concerning Bruce playing piano on LSD-25 (the flip side of the Moon Dawg 45):

(1)  Although drugs were certainly more prevalent in the entertainment industry than in society in general, most members of the general public didn’t have a clue what LSD was in 1959 – 60.  The title would have seemed innocuous to most people back then.  It would be five years later, in 1965, that LSD became a hot news item and topic of conversation, with such news and discussion exploding in 1966.  And, it was still a legal drug at this point in time.


(2)  Bruce did not write or title the song, and may have not even known its title when he played the session.

No question about it. Jazz musicians were widely using heroin and marijuana, at least. Rock 'n' rollers were using speed (um, Beatles in Hamburg?). Go back further and writers and musicians were drinking absinthe or taking opium. As long as substances have altered minds, it seems artists of any genre have been interested in having their minds altered.

Further back than that - silent star Wallace Reid died in 1923 as a consequence of his morphine addiction. It's a huge irony that he was first given the drug by the studio doctor to combat the pain of a back injury he sustained while helping rescue people from a train wreck.

Farther back than "as long as substances have altered minds"? Wow, 1923 was pre-Big Bang!

 ;D

Wally Reid is usualy cited as Year Zero for Hollywood drug abuse.

Would it paint me immature to respond with "Hollywood Schmollywood"?

In other news, I waste far, far too much time on days off. And far, far too much alcohol.

But really, considering I know authors and poets to have drug habits going back at least into the 19th century, at least, I wonder as to musicians.

Silent films are an eyeopener for those thinking that social ills are a recent development....


Douglas Fairbanks did a parody of Sherlock Holmes called Coke Ennyday.  This detective sat around between cases, spinning a wheel to decide whether to eat, coke up, shoot up, or drink a shot.  He had a belt full of hypos that he used liberally, and a case of flour that was actually pure cocaine.  1916, people.

Charlie Chaplin's most famous and possibly best short subject, Easy Street, had a scene where Charlie as policeman falls into an opium den accidentally.  His rump falls onto a syringe which injects into his body in full.  In a drug rush, Charlie suddenly has the strength to defeat all of his foes, followed ironically by a scene where Charlie as cop has cleaned up the street and everyone goes to church.

Scandals were severe then too.  There is the Reid one, plus the Fatty Arbuckle one with the dead actress and the accusations of rape that were untrue (destroying his career).  The parties in the 20s were legendary in Hollywood and some would make the 60's look tame.

Three words: Edgar. Allen. Poe.

Three more words:

Samuel. Taylor. Coleridge.