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Title: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on April 29, 2015, 12:31:43 AM At the time of Denny's passing, were there any actual attempts to make a new BB album? I have read there were failed / unrealized early 80s ideas about an album with multiple producers, recording or releasing more cover songs (ugh!), but I do wonder if Denny had lived, even if he had stayed away from being part of the writing/recording process as he mostly had done for the previous album, KTSA, would BB85 have happened?
Would the band have started writing, recording, and finding the producer they eventually found for BB85, in 1984? Or did that timeline accelerate due to the aftermath of Denny's passing? I get the feeling that Denny's passing may have triggered the band to want to kickstart work on a new album which would be a new start, to unite together and get an album done, more so than might have happened if he had not died. Perhaps it was motivation to power through the tough times with making new music. What do you all think? Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: KDS on April 29, 2015, 05:18:47 AM I think it depends on whether or not Dennis would've gotten himself clean.
I'm uncertain on the timeline off the top of my head, but didn't Carl leave the group until Dennis passed? I think if Dennis got himself clean in the same way Brian was losing weight and starting to shake off his demons (with the help of another), I could see The Beach Boys with Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, Dennis, and Bruce putting out an album at some point in the mid 1980s. However, I doubt Dennis would've approved of the Steve Levine production style of the 85 album. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Willy Wilson on April 29, 2015, 05:31:17 AM Wouldn't it be nice for Dennis to live again?
Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: KDS on April 29, 2015, 05:41:30 AM I'm sure somewhere Dennis is smiling for three reasons.
1. After over 50 years, the music of The Beach Boys is still celebrated. 2. His solo album Pacific Ocean Blue has become a cult classic, and considered by many to be the greatest BB solo record. 3. His older brother Brian has become a prolific solo artist. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Nicko1234 on April 29, 2015, 06:04:20 AM I maybe completely wrong but I think whenever Brian was well enough to work again they would have wanted to make a new album. I think it was always about Brian up to this point really.
Al was interviewed about Dennis`s death in ESQ ages ago and basically said that because Dennis had been largely out of the band for so long before his death, they just carried on as before. (And in response to KDS`s post, Carl was back in the touring band long before Dennis died) Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Ang Jones on April 29, 2015, 06:40:11 AM I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway, perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian.
Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on April 29, 2015, 06:43:49 AM I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway, perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian. I guess more of what I'm getting at with my original question, is this : were any circumstances already set up in motion pre 12/28/83 for the album to be recorded the way it was recorded, or did all of that completely start after Denny's death? After all, it was only a matter of months after he passed before the ball started rolling for the album. And I'm also curious, hypothetically, if Denny lived but continued being out of the band, either due to alcoholism or otherwise, would BB85 still have happened when it did, the way it did? Something tells me the band might have simply kept touring for several more years without any new material, but perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: KDS on April 29, 2015, 06:45:06 AM Thanks Nicko.
Wasn't sure about exactly how long Carl was out of the group. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Joel Goldenberg on April 29, 2015, 11:49:45 AM I maybe completely wrong but I think whenever Brian was well enough to work again they would have wanted to make a new album. I think it was always about Brian up to this point really. Al was interviewed about Dennis`s death in ESQ ages ago and basically said that because Dennis had been largely out of the band for so long before his death, they just carried on as before. (And in response to KDS`s post, Carl was back in the touring band long before Dennis died) Yes, Carl was back sometime in '82. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Nicko1234 on April 29, 2015, 12:13:32 PM I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway, perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian. I guess more of what I'm getting at with my original question, is this : were any circumstances already set up in motion pre 12/28/83 for the album to be recorded the way it was recorded, or did all of that completely start after Denny's death? After all, it was only a matter of months after he passed before the ball started rolling for the album. And I'm also curious, hypothetically, if Denny lived but continued being out of the band, either due to alcoholism or otherwise, would BB85 still have happened when it did, the way it did? Something tells me the band might have simply kept touring for several more years without any new material, but perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that... I can`t see that. They had already recorded East Meets West even before Dennis died. And Chasin` the Sky was worked on in January 1984 so must have already been arranged. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Steve Latshaw on April 29, 2015, 12:19:44 PM It wouldn't have been more cover versions. CBS rejected the Runaway live single in 1982 precisely because it was a cover and they felt they'd paid for original (aka Brian Wilson) material.
I think it's significant that, apparently, Dennis really loved Every Breath You take by The Police. The song itself has haunting, Beach Boys-style bg vocals, a great hook and very simple instrumentation (guitar, bass, drums). I've always wondered what might have happened had the band gone for a trimmed down sound in the 80s... merging their early sixties style with current/adult songs... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on April 29, 2015, 12:22:40 PM I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway, perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian. I guess more of what I'm getting at with my original question, is this : were any circumstances already set up in motion pre 12/28/83 for the album to be recorded the way it was recorded, or did all of that completely start after Denny's death? After all, it was only a matter of months after he passed before the ball started rolling for the album. And I'm also curious, hypothetically, if Denny lived but continued being out of the band, either due to alcoholism or otherwise, would BB85 still have happened when it did, the way it did? Something tells me the band might have simply kept touring for several more years without any new material, but perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that... I can`t see that. They had already recorded East Meets West even before Dennis died. And Chasin` the Sky was worked on in January 1984 so must have already been arranged. I guess instead of saying "without any new material", I should have said without any cohesive grouping of album material, where the group went in specifically to record a full length. Yes, the band kept recording odd songs like the ones you mentioned here and there, but I don't know if there were any plans to write and record a new record. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on April 29, 2015, 12:26:45 PM It wouldn't have been more cover versions. CBS rejected the Runaway live single in 1982 precisely because it was a cover and they felt they'd paid for original (aka Brian Wilson) material. I think it's significant that, apparently, Dennis really loved Every Breath You take by The Police. The song itself has haunting, Beach Boys-style bg vocals, a great hook and very simple instrumentation (guitar, bass, drums). I've always wondered what might have happened had the band gone for a trimmed down sound in the 80s... merging their early sixties style with current/adult songs... Dennis was certainly well ahead of his mates from the mid 70s-on when it came to seamlessly integrating modern music styles. POB and the Bambu tracks have a modern edge to them without sounding like trend-jumping, to my ears. I suppose it's plausible to think that Every Breath You Take would have been a musical influence to a degree, had he cleaned up and worked on new tunes. I wonder if he was into any other Police tunes, or just this one (which is probably my fave Police tune also). I also do wonder if his voice irreparably damaged (as heard on that 1983 YASB performance), or if it could have healed/improved as his brother's eventually did. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Nicko1234 on April 29, 2015, 12:50:02 PM I guess instead of saying "without any new material", I should have said without any cohesive grouping of album material, where the group went in specifically to record a full length. Yes, the band kept recording odd songs like the ones you mentioned here and there, but I don't know if there were any plans to write and record a new record. I really can`t see any reason why they wouldn`t have wanted to do a new record. Brian and Carl had done some work together in 1983 according to AGD`s site and, with Brian getting back to some sort of health, it is only natural that they would want to try to make a hit album (and be paid for it of course). Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Steve Latshaw on April 29, 2015, 03:41:54 PM I would like to imagine they might have added Do You Wanna Dance to the encore and have Dennis do it... just heard Dave Edmunds cover from the 1980s... made me smile...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpeEBUsR1So Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Ang Jones on May 03, 2015, 03:25:08 AM The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success.
Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Nicko1234 on May 03, 2015, 04:44:56 AM The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success. Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart. I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: c-man on May 03, 2015, 04:54:31 AM Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project).
Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs) Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit. That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added. By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced. Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 03, 2015, 08:55:04 AM Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project). Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs) Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit. That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added. By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced. Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point. Thanks for this info, c-man. All very interesting. I had no idea about "What You Do To Me" being pegged for a BB song. Were any other Carl solo tracks as well? And the flipside; I wonder if any other potential Carl solo tracks became BB tracks. I guess the answer to my original post seems to be yes, more than likely it would have been the same album. I can't imagine the anguish that Denny would have felt if he tried to sing a studio recording at that time. So rough was his voice on the 1983 live YASB, I imagine it broke his own heart (let alone his bandmates' hearts) to hear him that way, possibly irreparably. Was Getcha Back written pre 12/28/83? I remember reading that Mike envisioned Denny as the lead vocalist. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: c-man on May 03, 2015, 09:06:26 AM Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project). Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs) Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit. That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added. By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced. Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point. Thanks for this info, c-man. All very interesting. I had no idea about "What You Do To Me" being pegged for a BB song. Were any other Carl solo tracks as well? And the flipside; I wonder if any other potential Carl solo tracks became BB tracks. I guess the answer to my original post seems to be yes, more than likely it would have been the same album. I can't imagine the anguish that Denny would have felt if he tried to sing a studio recording at that time. So rough was his voice on the 1983 live YASB, I imagine it broke his own heart (let alone his bandmates' hearts) to hear him that way, possibly irreparably. Was Getcha Back written pre 12/28/83? I remember reading that Mike envisioned Denny as the lead vocalist. Hmmm...I hadn't heard that last part: do you recall where you saw that? That might explain Mike handing the lead over to Christian and David in recent years, if he had envisioned someone with a deeper, less nasally approach singing it. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 03, 2015, 09:16:22 AM Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project). Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs) Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit. That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added. By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced. Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point. Thanks for this info, c-man. All very interesting. I had no idea about "What You Do To Me" being pegged for a BB song. Were any other Carl solo tracks as well? And the flipside; I wonder if any other potential Carl solo tracks became BB tracks. I guess the answer to my original post seems to be yes, more than likely it would have been the same album. I can't imagine the anguish that Denny would have felt if he tried to sing a studio recording at that time. So rough was his voice on the 1983 live YASB, I imagine it broke his own heart (let alone his bandmates' hearts) to hear him that way, possibly irreparably. Was Getcha Back written pre 12/28/83? I remember reading that Mike envisioned Denny as the lead vocalist. Hmmm...I hadn't heard that last part: do you recall where you saw that? That might explain Mike handing the lead over to Christian and David in recent years, if he had envisioned someone with a deeper, less nasally approach singing it. I think this thread is where I read it: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17835.msg459586.html#msg459586 Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: c-man on May 03, 2015, 09:44:42 AM Wow, I'd even commented on that topic...guess I'd forgotten! So, I wonder if "having Dennis in mind" meant he was thinking of him, 'cause he'd recently passed, rather than envisioning him as a potential lead vocalist when he was still alive (assuming his rather serious voice problem was rectified)?
Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 03, 2015, 09:50:05 AM Wow, I'd even commented on that topic...guess I'd forgotten! So, I wonder if "having Dennis in mind" meant he was thinking of him, 'cause he'd recently passed, rather than envisioning him as a potential lead vocalist when he was still alive (assuming his rather serious voice problem was rectified)? Good question. Someone should ask Mike... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Lonely Summer on May 03, 2015, 11:35:04 PM The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success. Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart. I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Nicko1234 on May 03, 2015, 11:54:19 PM The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success. Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart. I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club... That I can understand but there is some music from the 1980s that has aged well and some that really hasn`t. I can`t really imagine that many people listening to Culture Club albums nowadays... The production is the worst thing about BB85 imo and it is more dated than a lot of the work the band did the 60s. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: KDS on May 04, 2015, 06:22:41 AM I wonder if Dennis lived, if the Boys would've recorded a studio version of You Are So Beautiful.
I'd like to hope that if Dennis were on BB85, the drums would've sounded like they were played by a human being. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: phirnis on May 04, 2015, 07:26:00 AM I wonder if and how Dennis' style of composition would've fit into the group's 80s sound.
Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: harrisonjon on May 04, 2015, 01:49:26 PM My understanding is that Dennis's singing voice was totally gone, so even with a full detox, I don't see him ever doing a BB vocal. That leaves the drums, which not many groups recorded very well in the 80s.
I'm guessing that he would have boycotted Kokomo in disgust, but then again I'm not sure he wanted to be on a BB record after the farce of Here Comes The Night, etc. Any Love/Bruce domination would have led to him steering clear. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 04, 2015, 01:59:54 PM My understanding is that Dennis's singing voice was totally gone, so even with a full detox, I don't see him ever doing a BB vocal. That leaves the drums, which not many groups recorded very well in the 80s. I'm guessing that he would have boycotted Kokomo in disgust, but then again I'm not sure he wanted to be on a BB record after the farce of Here Comes The Night, etc. Any Love/Bruce domination would have led to him steering clear. Man. It's just so, so, so sad to think of a once vibrant talent who conveyed such emotion with his (admittedly nontraditionally "great") voice, having a singing voice that would be *totally* gone. It may well be that this was actually the case in 1983. I wonder : how much of Denny's realization of that, in and of itself, could have contributed to his severe depression/addictions and seemingly giving up in general? I can't imagine that Denny hearing his own voice in the vocal monitors singing YASB at the July 1983 show didn't depress the hell out of him. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Generation42 on May 04, 2015, 08:50:01 PM I wonder if Dennis lived, if the Boys would've recorded a studio version of You Are So Beautiful. I would have loved that. Why, oh why didn't they ever bother? I'd like to hope that if Dennis were on BB85, the drums would've sounded like they were played by a human being. I'm still holding out hope of living to see the day that a The Beach Boys remix release, with way more organic sound, is announced.I know the album was a reflection of its time, and I suppose that there's something to be said for that. But I really feel as though hearing the record, minus the dated eighties sound, might make people sit up and take notice in a way that the production of the official version makes unnecessarily difficult. I think the songs are there. There is certainly precedent among other top acts. John Lennon's Double Fantasy album was always a favorite of mine, but hearing it "Stripped" was much more than a novelty. On some of the tracks, it was downright revelatory. Shame it'll probably never happen for BB85. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Jay on May 04, 2015, 09:08:19 PM I wonder if Dennis lived, if the Boys would've recorded a studio version of You Are So Beautiful. I would have loved that. Why, oh why didn't they ever bother? I'd like to hope that if Dennis were on BB85, the drums would've sounded like they were played by a human being. I'm still holding out hope of living to see the day that a The Beach Boys remix release, with way more organic sound, is announced.I know the album was a reflection of its time, and I suppose that there's something to be said for that. But I really feel as though hearing the record, minus the dated eighties sound, might make people sit up and take notice in a way that the production of the official version makes unnecessarily difficult. I think the songs are there. There is certainly precedent among other top acts. John Lennon's Double Fantasy album was always a favorite of mine, but hearing it "Stripped" was much more than a novelty. On some of the tracks, it was downright revelatory. Shame it'll probably never happen for BB85. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 04, 2015, 09:16:34 PM I wonder if Dennis lived, if the Boys would've recorded a studio version of You Are So Beautiful. I would have loved that. Why, oh why didn't they ever bother? I'd like to hope that if Dennis were on BB85, the drums would've sounded like they were played by a human being. I'm still holding out hope of living to see the day that a The Beach Boys remix release, with way more organic sound, is announced.I know the album was a reflection of its time, and I suppose that there's something to be said for that. But I really feel as though hearing the record, minus the dated eighties sound, might make people sit up and take notice in a way that the production of the official version makes unnecessarily difficult. I think the songs are there. There is certainly precedent among other top acts. John Lennon's Double Fantasy album was always a favorite of mine, but hearing it "Stripped" was much more than a novelty. On some of the tracks, it was downright revelatory. Shame it'll probably never happen for BB85. I hope against hope that one day, all BB albums will be digitally released as ProTools sessions with full multi-tracks of all available instrumental and vocal stems. Then maybe some remixing can happen; at least fan mix stuff. Shouldn't monetizing multi-track recordings by legendary bands be the last big hurrah of the industry, anyway? But even if they did that, they'd probably never get around to BB85 sadly. Kinda like how Wild Honey sits alone in the wilderness of being the lone mono album not reissued in stereo (c'mon Capitol... do it! Even with some extraction mixes!), and how Still Crusin' and SIP especially have a microscopic chance of being reissued. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Kurosawa on May 04, 2015, 09:28:56 PM The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success. Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart. I think they should have broke up in 1977 or whenever that really sad event on Al's birthday was. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: joshferrell on May 04, 2015, 09:36:59 PM who knows maybe some of his Bamboo stuff would have ended up on BB 85 had he lived,,,it would have been better than half of the album (or more)..can you imagine "It's not too late" instead of "Passing Friend" ? or "School Girl" instead of "I do love you"?
Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 04, 2015, 09:57:53 PM I wonder if Dennis lived, if the Boys would've recorded a studio version of You Are So Beautiful. I would have loved that. Why, oh why didn't they ever bother? I'd like to hope that if Dennis were on BB85, the drums would've sounded like they were played by a human being. I'm still holding out hope of living to see the day that a The Beach Boys remix release, with way more organic sound, is announced.I know the album was a reflection of its time, and I suppose that there's something to be said for that. But I really feel as though hearing the record, minus the dated eighties sound, might make people sit up and take notice in a way that the production of the official version makes unnecessarily difficult. I think the songs are there. There is certainly precedent among other top acts. John Lennon's Double Fantasy album was always a favorite of mine, but hearing it "Stripped" was much more than a novelty. On some of the tracks, it was downright revelatory. Shame it'll probably never happen for BB85. I hope against hope that one day, all BB albums will be digitally released as ProTools sessions with full multi-tracks of all available instrumental and vocal stems. Then maybe some remixing can happen; at least fan mix stuff. Shouldn't monetizing multi-track recordings by legendary bands be the last big hurrah of the industry, anyway? But even if they did that, they'd probably never get around to BB85 sadly. Kinda like how Wild Honey sits alone in the wilderness of being the lone mono album not reissued in stereo (c'mon Capitol... do it! Even with some extraction mixes!), and how Still Crusin' and SIP especially have a microscopic chance of being reissued. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 04, 2015, 10:34:34 PM who knows maybe some of his Bamboo stuff would have ended up on BB 85 had he lived,,,it would have been better than half of the album (or more)..can you imagine "It's not too late" instead of "Passing Friend" ? or "School Girl" instead of "I do love you"? Man... That's an interesting thought. I could see "It's Not Too Late" being a legit companion piece to "Where I Belong" on the same record. It would have sucked so much less with more Denny. And if might have been more worthy of a record entitled "The Beach Boys". Which reminds me, a chance to reiterate my question… Does anybody have any theories on why, of all albums, they chose that album to be self–titled? Could it be as simple as a completely meaningless marketing gimmick, or was it more of a statement of band unity in the wake of Denny's passing? Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Lonely Summer on May 05, 2015, 12:29:27 AM The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success. Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart. I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club... That I can understand but there is some music from the 1980s that has aged well and some that really hasn`t. I can`t really imagine that many people listening to Culture Club albums nowadays... The production is the worst thing about BB85 imo and it is more dated than a lot of the work the band did the 60s. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Nicko1234 on May 05, 2015, 01:15:51 AM No argument on that last point. So much of the 80's pop stuff was synth heavy, with drum machines that didn't even attempt to sound like the real thing. I suppose there are some people that still love that sound; myself, i would like to hear some recordings of BB85 songs played live, with the real instruments. Haven't had much luck with that, other than some live versions of "Getcha Back" and a poor quality audience recording of "It's Gettin' Late". I agree with you but I think even when they attempted the songs live they sounded so cheesy: Crack at Your Love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkjVJoRVkQ8 I`ve said for a long time though that I`m So Lonely is due a makeover. If someone were to do a simple piano arrangement of that then it could be quite affecting. And one of the touring bands needs to add Where I Belong to the setlist... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: KDS on May 05, 2015, 08:08:37 AM I always have mixed feelings when it comes to remixing older material as opposed to remastering.
For all of the faults of its Culture Club production, The Beach Boys 1985 album was what it was, a reflection of that time. I have several albums in my collection that don't have the best production in the world, but the songs are there. Personally, I think that the 85 album has a weak collection of songs, so I think the cold production is sometimes blamed for the album's lack in quality. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 05, 2015, 08:28:19 AM I always have mixed feelings when it comes to remixing older material as opposed to remastering. For all of the faults of its Culture Club production, The Beach Boys 1985 album was what it was, a reflection of that time. I have several albums in my collection that don't have the best production in the world, but the songs are there. Personally, I think that the 85 album has a weak collection of songs, so I think the cold production is sometimes blamed for the album's lack in quality. I think BW88 is the least dated sounding record when compared to BB85 and SIP. But I can (mostly) deal with the dated-sounding parts without them in and of themselves affecting my enjoyment of the music. Rad (or not so rad) chord changes, lyrics, and vibe are gonna shine through one way or another. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Mike's Beard on May 05, 2015, 08:37:19 AM I always have mixed feelings when it comes to remixing older material as opposed to remastering. There's some real crap on it (roughly one third of the record I can't listen to) but it's saving grace is IMO Carl's singing never sounded better then it did on BB85.For all of the faults of its Culture Club production, The Beach Boys 1985 album was what it was, a reflection of that time. I have several albums in my collection that don't have the best production in the world, but the songs are there. Personally, I think that the 85 album has a weak collection of songs, so I think the cold production is sometimes blamed for the album's lack in quality. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: KDS on May 05, 2015, 09:02:15 AM I always have mixed feelings when it comes to remixing older material as opposed to remastering. For all of the faults of its Culture Club production, The Beach Boys 1985 album was what it was, a reflection of that time. I have several albums in my collection that don't have the best production in the world, but the songs are there. Personally, I think that the 85 album has a weak collection of songs, so I think the cold production is sometimes blamed for the album's lack in quality. I think BW88 is the least dated sounding record when compared to BB85 and SIP. But I can (mostly) deal with the dated-sounding parts without them in and of themselves affecting my enjoyment of the music. Rad (or not so rad) chord changes, lyrics, and vibe are gonna shine through one way or another. I think this is because the Brian Wilson 1988 album isn't trying to latch on to the trendy sounds of the times the way that BB85 or SIP were. The songs may have some bad 1980s production, but I don't think anybody in the 1980s was writing songs like Rio Grande for example. Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Lonely Summer on May 06, 2015, 12:13:40 AM No argument on that last point. So much of the 80's pop stuff was synth heavy, with drum machines that didn't even attempt to sound like the real thing. I suppose there are some people that still love that sound; myself, i would like to hear some recordings of BB85 songs played live, with the real instruments. Haven't had much luck with that, other than some live versions of "Getcha Back" and a poor quality audience recording of "It's Gettin' Late". I agree with you but I think even when they attempted the songs live they sounded so cheesy: Crack at Your Love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkjVJoRVkQ8 I`ve said for a long time though that I`m So Lonely is due a makeover. If someone were to do a simple piano arrangement of that then it could be quite affecting. And one of the touring bands needs to add Where I Belong to the setlist... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Generation42 on May 07, 2015, 03:03:58 PM I'm still holding out hope of living to see the day that a The Beach Boys remix release, with way more organic sound, is announced. Considering that it was recorded on Digital equipment, I'm not really sure how much BB85 would benefit from a remix. I don't really think there is enough "real instrument" sound for it to work for a complete album remix. Especially since the drums were programmed. I know the album was a reflection of its time, and I suppose that there's something to be said for that. But I really feel as though hearing the record, minus the dated eighties sound, might make people sit up and take notice in a way that the production of the official version makes unnecessarily difficult. I think the songs are there. There is certainly precedent among other top acts. John Lennon's Double Fantasy album was always a favorite of mine, but hearing it "Stripped" was much more than a novelty. On some of the tracks, it was downright revelatory. Shame it'll probably never happen for BB85. My thinking was, the very first thing you try to do is to tweak those individual digital drum tracks in such a way as to approach a more timeless sound. But if that didn't quite achieve the desired effect? Then maybe 'cheat' a bit by doing the best you can with those digital drums, and then also supplement them minimally with some additional new acoustic percussion. ... But if either option just weren't feasible, and the digital drums just cannot be made to sound good, no matter what you do? Well, in that case, my final (even more radical) thought is: How about just outright stripping away the digital drums, entirely? Then replace what was lost with some modern day acoustic drums, percussion, etc.? Whatever it takes. But that opens a whole other can of worms. The argument could, I suppose, be made that if you're going to go that far, then why not go the distance and just re-record the songs, entirely? It would seem to cross the line from a remix project into... something else. ... But putting aside dreams of an official remix release for a moment, I'm with CenturyDeprived: I'd still be very interested to hear what might be possible, just given the multi-tracks and the opportunity. I'd have a lot of fun with those, and who knows what some real engineers might be able to come up with? I said before that "the songs are there," and I stand by that. Which is not to say I think we're dealing with long, lost Beach Boys classics, mind. Just that I think that some new appreciation for the numbers could be won if they were ever able to be enjoyed in a different light. I feel like the songs are better than they seem, encased in their current production. The least fantastic option might be what was alluded to earlier: Live versions. I know that it was hearing "Getcha' Back" live that really got me thinking about the whole thing. Have they played every song from the album live? I'm guessing not, but if enough of the record has been performed on-stage, maybe a collection of live versions could be compiled and included as the second disk of a BB85 deluxe version? Toss in any demos? Album session outtakes (like maybe "Oh, Lord")? I'd buy it. Ah, to dream... Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Lonely Summer on May 07, 2015, 11:09:15 PM Getcha Back, It's Gettin' Late, Crack at Your Love, She Believes in Love Again, California Calling and It's Just a Matter of Time were performed live. Whether they were properly recorded or not is another matter.
Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Generation42 on May 08, 2015, 05:22:56 PM Getcha Back, It's Gettin' Late, Crack at Your Love, She Believes in Love Again, California Calling and It's Just a Matter of Time were performed live. Whether they were properly recorded or not is another matter. Awesome.Good info, too. Thanks for the reply! Title: Re: Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived? Post by: Jay on May 09, 2015, 03:02:55 AM To be honest, if there were to ever be a remix of "BB85", I'd rather have a few "drum-less" songs, than have somebody overdub them.
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