The Smiley Smile Message Board

 When the song was covered, and changed from a female to male perspective, I wonder why it was flipped in the way it was? I suppose the easiest answer to assume is that it makes the singer come off more masculine and in charge, the change of which may have seemed vaguely sexist to some if it were to happen now, but was probably not intended as such by then. I wonder if it was Brian's sole idea change the perspective of the song lyrics, or if anyone else (bandmates/Capitol) made that call or gave input.

pretty commonplace to reverse the male/female roles in a song, depending on what gender is singing. and I think it's like you said, the male was expected to initiate that first kiss... at least in those days. not to mention that's the way it went down in the original version by The Crystals

i love this rendition by The Derailers, released in 1999. and the gal does the kissin': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS92DQi4lYc

Well, since the original is called "Then He Kissed Me", if you were to change perspective to the male, the song would now be called "Then I Kissed Her".

"Then she kissed me" is slightly, to my ears, inferior too, for the simply reasons that "she" has the "shh" sound which can sound bad into a mic, that the "she" rhymes with "me" which is ever so slightly clumsy, and finally "she" and "me" start with consonants and are ever so slightly harsher sounding that "I" and "her".

I doubt any of those elements were considerations at the time and they weren't in my mind either until I thought about it just now. 50 years on though I'd just like to say "good call" and encourage the band to record some more tunes along those lines.

Edited to correct "missed" to "kissed", to avoid any suggestion that the lady in the song swung a punch.

We're talking an Al Jardine lead - he's a man of action, a lover and a fighter, a kisser not a kissee, thus the lyrics were possibly changed to reflect his character.

I imagine the lyrics would have been even less polite were Dennis given the lead.

Never in the history of the two different sexes has "she walked up to him and asked him if he wanted to dance", and if she did, she sure as hell didn't kiss him after asking his sorry, no self esteem having ass to dance with her.


Sure, call it sexist or whatever, but it's the truth. I mean, maybe that happened, a couple times maximum, but it likely ended in suicide once he found out she only asked him to dance and to kiss her because she felt sorry for him. So he definitely didn't change the words to a song he was covering because of it.


And that is why the song is the way it is.

That would have been a great lyric too -"And Then She Punched Me" :-D

Two years later they obviously felt "Help Me Rhonda" was too wimpy and they recorded a "Help You Rhonda". Thank goodness they didn't stick with that.

I think they briefly considered "Then I Kissed Me".

We're talking the '60s here - Then I Kissed Her makes a lot more sense, especially as she would have had to walk up to him, etc etc. The lyric would have run into problems with 'then she asked me to be her bride' LOL! 'Then she asked me to be her groom' doesn't really cut it either.

 :lol :lol :lol

Same reason for Help You Rhonda.

Rock band Kiss recorded it as Then She Kissed Me in 1977. Obviously not as good as the BB version, but not too shabby either.

Interesting... so yeah, it shows that there were two lyrical choices/roads that a male singer could take when covering this song.
I think Brian made the right decision, ultimately.

That's another head-scratcher. I wonder if they just got bored of singing it the original way, and if that was the trigger for the occasionally-sung alternate version.

Speaking of, I wonder how often it was sung live as Help You Rhonda?

I agree. Here's the 1977 Kiss version if anyone is curious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ2tO3xMIU

Ah, Then I Kissed Her! As many of you young people know, Al the folkie pushed hard for Brian Wilson to record this calypso classic, often calling the great man at two in the morning and in a drunken slur insisting “Ve jould record Zen He Kisshed Me.”

Brian misheard once, thinking Al had said, “Zen, gee, kissh me,” and was nonplussed at the quiet rhythm guitarist’s bold pass. Thus began a Three Stooges-like dialogue during which Lynda heard Brian shout, “I’m not going to kiss you, Al!” Lynda’s dark stare caused a quickly sobering Al to blurt out “He misheard!”

But Brian thought Al had said, not “he misheard,” but rather “He kissed her.”

Brian said, “Record it as Then He Kissed Her?”

Cutting his losses, Al said “Yes, Brian, Then He Kissed Her.”

Brian said, “Al that doesn’t make sense. It should be Then I Kissed Her.”

Cleverly, Al said, “Of course, Brian, Then I Kissed Her!”

“Marilyn?!!! Dammit Al!”

“No, Brian, I didn’t kiss Marilyn. Lynda was saying…”

“Lynda kissed Marilyn???”

“Well, just the once.”

When all was straightened out, of course, the Beach Boys recorded their brilliant rendition of the song. And that, my friends, is the inside story of how it became Then I Kissed Her – a typically complicated misunderstanding that the boys turned to gold.

I don't think that's what happened.

That must be that "Hawthorne Humor" the kids are so fond of these days.

Definately!  This song has so much swag, he's such a badass in the song of course he's the one doin' the kissing.  At the end he almost cries... but not quite because he's a badass. 

Because then it can turn into a song that is actually about cunnilingus. 

I am joking, but in the back of my mind I think it might actually be true.

it works and sounds better. damn political correctness crap. 
I'd be disgusted if the BB's sang 'Then He Kissed Me'.
I'm not into that kinda sh*t I must say.

Do you think the song would have not worked as well for 1960s audiences if the lyric had been "Then She Kissed Me" instead of "Then I Kissed Her"?

The Beatles covered "Boys" without changing the gender.

True. It's interesting to ponder if some of these changes (or lack thereof) were out of some sort of desire to avoid any possible homosexual or less macho connotation. Maybe that was less of an issue in the UK as opposed to the US? I don't in any way begrudge an artist for changing the gender of a song lyric; it doesn't affect my enjoyment one bit. But I do find it doubtful that the acceptance (or lack thereof) that a song might have received in the time it was recorded would have been a complete non-issue when it came time to cover it.

I'm certain The Boys (and The Beatles) weren't trying to make any sort of bold political statement, but that said, I think that lyric changes aren't/weren't done in a vacuum, any more than the Hang On To Your Ego changes weren't done in a vacuum. I tend to think that things happened (or didn't happen) for reason(s), even if they were perhaps subconscious.

In the case of this song, I think it was more of not wanting to rock the boat of the typical 1960s social norms of the boy being in control, which was in keeping with the original lyric.

"We're talking an Al Jardine lead - he's a man of action, a lover and a fighter, a kisser not a kissee, thus the lyrics were possibly changed to reflect his character".

are we talking the same Al Jardine here, of the Beach Boys, who Dennis once termed as "a man waiting for a bus"

all told the title gender change doesn't prove to make sense to me, because the body of the lyric--as originally sung by a girl--is of a passive nature, and you really can't bring closure with an overt act.  unless, as has already been said, the next verse is "And then she punched me"

I've never really understood that quote. Is there some subtext to the "man waiting for a bus" thing that I'm missing? Was it supposed to mean that Denny was bored and disengaged?

This is good question, would like to know as well.

I guess he's got a way with girls  ;D

So, anyone remember when Brian sang "I Loves You, Porgy" without changing any of the words?

And, I'm not going to say anyone's a bigot or a homophobe for changing the words of a song around, but do we really have to be so paranoid about a few lyrics of a song?

Apparently, Dennis was describing how boring he thought Al was. No one seems to know when and where he made that remark.

I'm happy to be corrected but it sounds apocryphal to me. ...

 :lol

It's about time this post was given some credit. Hank rules!


To say nothing of Astrud Gilberto's definitive rendering of "The Girl From Ipanema"...

Just after the release of BWRG, by complete luck I happened upon a radio broadcast featuring a lenghty interview with Brian, who was enthusiastic about the new album and firing on all cylinders (imagine a chapter from his book). The interviewer, who was very good, among many questions asked why Brian had not changed the lyrics to "I Loves You Porgy". Brian gave a very lively and heartfelt answer, and I don't remember his exact words, but it was something like: "So, I sang a love song to a man. I know there is still someone who thinks it's unappropriate, but I am not among them."

Brian's version of I Loves You Porgy rules. I really like the idea of Brian not giving a f*ck about the "appropriateness" of that lyric.

It really shouldn't matter, though I'm not quite sure that same attitude would have passed muster in the '60s if, say, The BBs wanted to cover it. Or in the late '70s if Brian had tried to cover it with unchanged lyrics for Adult Child, I could see  potential band member pushback (beyond the pushback for covering a Gershwin song in and of itself).