The Smiley Smile Message Board

I know that the original 5 were perfect and everything.  Brian didn't really need a group to make his music; and I'm sure most of you would say that the group needed him more than he needed them.  But couldn't the same be said about Dennis?  I mean he certainly stood out from the rest of them and his presence made them all look "cool".  If he wasn't there, would they have gotten as far as they did in the early days? Probably not.  I think he could've been in any other rock group and he probably would've gotten more recognition as an artist instead of just being labeled as "the dumb blonde surfer boy"...any thoughts?

I don't think anyone thinks of Dennis as "the dumb blonde surfer boy."

No.

I guess that depends on whether there was another band that would have taken on a drummer  who looked cool but couldn't actually play drums. When they decided to be a band, Dennis wasn't much of a musician, yet. The talent was there, but he had never developed it.  He learned his craft on-the-job, so to speak. The Dennis who recorded POB was the product of years of learning on the go, being in The Beach Boys, and being in the studio with Brian. Dennis may have felt constrained by the band by the time POB came along, but like it or not, he was also a product of it.

That goes for all of them. Brian needed the boys. They needed him and each other.  Change anything, and you don't have the Beach Boys, and without the Beach Boys, none of this would have happened for any of them.

Maybe not in those exact words but saying he was just there to attract fans and then how when he started writing songs, he wasn't taken seriously.

No maybe's about it!

I don't think Dennis was there solely to make girls like the band, and by the time Dennis was writing songs, no one was taking any member of the Beach Boys seriously. :'(

No.

I think if Dennis Wilson wasn't in The Beach Boys, he would probably have spent a lot of his life in jail.


Definitely he was in the right band, and the only band, that is for Dennis Wilson to be in.

How many times have you seen the line: "The Beach Boys died with Dennis."

He was not in the wrong group.

I don't think Dennis would have gone into music had he not joined the Beach Boys. Seems we have his mum, Audree, to thank for that.

Don't forget his big brother for showing him the way.  ;D

Hmmm... lessee...

Last name Wilson...

Surfs...

Played the drums some...

Have to say, he was a shoe-in for The Beach Boys.  ;D

You mean "shoo-in"? God, Endlish is tougher than I thought, especially if you need a dictionary like I do.

True, dat - I've been speaking it for almost 60 years, and I'm still struggling.  ;D

I can't even SPELL "English"! :o

Give this man a coconut.

For him to eat it or do you want to throw it at his head? :)

Ha. Was Harpo Marx in the wrong group.

Actually six, including both Al and Dave, and they appear to have had a synergy where it appears they learned from each other and each brought something different to the table.    :thewilsons

To answer the question, Dennis was in exactly the correct band!  :lol

At least not these days. But back in the 60's...

Dennis, I think, clearly suggested that HE felt he was in the wrong band.  And I think he did it a number of times.  And I also think it may well have been his own 'band-mates' who considered him to be the "dumb, blond, surfer".

Was it the substance abuse which caused his behavioral problems?  Likely.  But what caused the substance abuse?  Could be a number of different things.  Murry for starters.  Denny was a rebel from before he started throwing garbage and stuff on the neighbour's lawn across the street.  Welcome to the neighbourhood David Marks.  Being disrespected by his own band-mates must have been a real kick in the nuts...which they delivered over and over.  While Dennis remained closer to Brian...he clearly had little respect for his cousin.  For Carl and the others?  I don't know.

Denny, as far as I'm concerned, was musically gifted...and next to Brian, as things evolved...the MOST talented Beach Boy in the group.  Yet he couldn't get his songs included on albums?  [at least not in the numbers deserving of the actual tuneage]  Why?  Because he was just Denny...the dumb, blond surfer?  Then the 'Boy's do up the 'Love You' album and Denny, at the very, VERY least, equals it in terms of success, sales, critical acclaim and content with Pacific Ocean Blue.  None of THAT was good enough for the Beach Boys?

By that point Denny was in a downward spiral that would only get worse and worse.  He held his best stuff back from the group...saving it for his solo project[ s ]...like the upcoming Bamboo album.  Denny began to miss shows...whether he was physically there and chose not to participate/couldn't participate or whether he didn't even bother to show up in the alotted town.  His physical appearance and generally healthy 'look' slowly dissipated.  He was only 39 when he passed.  He looked like he was closer to 59.

I'd say that Dennis Wilson was in the wrong group...for the ultimate good of Dennis Wilson...from around Surf's Up...on.  I think, among other things, that being a Beach Boy...killed him.

Yeah, he was definitely in the right place. What other musical configuration could he have thrived in for as long as he did?

Well...there IS that.

It might be easy to form this kind of opinion about Dennis because of how the music he made appeared to be regarded by the rest of the group...but he got a lot of his songs onto Beach Boys albums (Sunflower has four!), even if just as many stayed unreleased, unrecorded or put out without much publicity.

BUT. He was clearly the most appealing to the ladies, he had a great voice with a decent number of leads early on AND was integral in both founding and defining The Beach Boys image into what they became famous for.

From my perspective, most real music fans see Dennis as he was - a great artist.

If not the Beach Boys, who? I mean, what other mid-60's SoCal bands could he have wound up in?

The only one I can think of offhand would be the Byrds. After all, they chose non-drummer Michael Clarke because he had long hair ( a rarity in July '64). If Dennis was at the right party playing bongos, with Rolling Stone-long hair, maybe he might have become a Byrd. However, would being a Byrds drummer given him more room to grow as a singer/writer/arranger/producer than did the Beach Boys? Unlikey.

Well in the 70s I think he was.  They needed his songs more than they realized.  I bet WIBNTLA wouldn't have been shelved for 42 years if he had been in another group.

Don't forget, Dennis himself was the one who decided to shelve it. If Dennis had been flexible about the album's sequencing, it would have come out in 1971.

Dennis wanted WIBNTLA to end Surf's Up, Carl wanted the title track to close the album. Dennis became upset and pulled both WIBNTLA and 4th of July from being on the album.

Dennis held back from releasing it, not Carl or any other member of the band.

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

No, but Zeppo Marx was.

Dennis' stuff was no more or no less commercial than any other track found on the Surf's Up album. I saw The Beach Boys three times, two of those three within a year of In Concert and really don't remember Dennis doing much lead singing at those shows. More of a Co-MC with Mike and singing background vocals.

Denny knew how great he was. POB proved it to the public once and for all.

Dude, what? When did anyone ever say or even allude to Dennis' songs not being "commercial enough" to be included on albums? He was a major creative force on several albums after he started writing songs.

I've only heard praise from the other guys in relation to Dennis' songs.

Um, I've heard and read that many times before...a couple of them threatened to kick him out of the group if he went and did a solo tour.  I know his health and bad habits (and finances) prevented it, but I bet it had more to do with jealousy than anything.  And another thing I don't get is why he was stuck singing YASB all the time when he had many great songs on POB.  River Song had been performed before with Blondie so why couldn't he sing it (at least during '77 or '78)?

Threatening to kick him out of the Beach Boys if he did a solo tour was a dick move, but it has nothing to do with his songs not being "commercial enough." Also, did you ever think that maybe he WANTED to sing "You Are So Beautiful" and wasn't just "stuck" doing so? You're inventing things and using them against the rest of the band.

I used "commercial enough" because I remember either reading that or someone saying it and it stuck out in my mind.  And i'm not inventing things, i just find it STRANGE that he had the most successful BB related album during that period and poured his heart out on all of those songs but none of those songs were included in the setlist.  And it wasn't the whole band making dick moves.  He and Carl were outnumbered in group votes many times and Brian was manipulated into doing whatever Mike Love and company said.

YASB is a great song but back then, nobody knew that was actually one of his songs.  Joe Cocker is the one who made it famous so to them he was singing a Joe Cocker song, not a Denny Wilson song.

I'm still not so sure that "the rest of the Band" took Denny all that seriously Runners.  Brian did.  He KNEW.  Meanwhile the other guys were all too often starving for songs for the 'next' album.  I just sometimes think they only took Denny's materials begrudgingly because they felt that they HAD to/that they had no choice...that they still looked at Denny as the 'Phuck-up' and because of that they couldn't HEAR the forest for the life-long trees which had built up the negativity dating back to childhood.

Why else would Denny have held his music back and felt that he had to go solo?  It wasn't a power trip.  River Song?  Outstanding.  Maybe the best thing available between Holland and TWthe man in the skyMTR.

Thank you!

I've decided. I want the baby to be a cinnamon roll.

Brian is the only Beach Boys that appears absolutely nowhere on Dennis' album.

I think that past a certain point in the band's history/evolution, that certain members were in the wrong group. I think that if you remove one of either Dennis, Mike, or Brian from the Beach Boys at a point when the musical differences/direction become too great, that if those people had other projects/outlets that they could legitimately find fulfillment in, that everyone would have been happier ultimately. I don't see how the groupings of Dennis and Mike, or Mike and Brian could happily and emotionally healthily coexist in the band past the early 70s and mid-to-late 60s, respectively. IMHO.

What was Al's involvement?

The Beach Boys are what they are, and Dennis was a Beach Boy. I don't see him as a victim of the group in any way.  Sure, there were conflicts, but he certainly wasn't the only one dealing with the band's growing pains.

Was Brian in the wrong group after Smile? He was going in a different creative direction, surely. He had a breakdown because of the pressure. You might even say Brian had enough of the group and effectively withdrew, leaving the creative hole that Dennis and the others tried to fill. But, to say Brian was in the wrong group implies interchangeability. No other group was the Beach Boys. For better or worse, they were, and still are,  Brian's band.  And, he knows it. His current backing band said that, during C50, Brian would often stop to listen, and frequently would say, "Hey! That's my boys!" But, Brian has been around long enough to heal from the conflict and hurt and gain some perspective. Unfortunately, Dennis didn't make it that far.

I also don't see Dennis as a victim in the solo career vs. band conflict. Very few performers are given the opportunity to stay with their band AND have a separate solo career. Phil Collins made it work, but a lot of others have been refused the option to  try it.  Usually, once a singer starts talking about a solo career, the band gig is over.  Understandably so, since a band is a full time job and a solo career can create conflict of interest. Given the fact that Dennis was often not turning up for concerts as it was, I can see why the band didn't want his attention split any further.

Ideally, Brother Records would have served its intended purpose and given everyone a means for personal projects.  Then, both Brian and Dennis could have explored those ideas that didn't quite fit with the band.  Unfortunately, the band was in panic mode and was trying to save the Titanic by rearranging the deck chairs.  In the end, no one was happy.

If Dennis felt the band was suffocating him and he was better off solo, he could have just made the break. But, he didn't. Because he was a Beach Boy. The Boys shaped the band, and in turn, the band shaped them.

I thought that the reason that certain other band members discouraged Dennis from pursuing a solo career further was that Pacific Ocean Blue sold as well as it did to the point that it was seen as a threat to the Beach Boys' own releases, which certainly doesn't lend credence to the theory that the other band members didn't see his work as commercial.

I do think there's a good possibility that Dennis would have been better off had he walked away from The Beach Boys at that point and finished Bambu on his own, and that we might also be better off, as a completed Bambu would have almost certainly been a much better album than any of the three post-POB albums he appeared on.  Then again, there is also the possibility that he wouldn't have been able to complete that album even if he had walked, as he had quite a few personal demons beyond interactions with the other Beach Boys.  However, I do not believe for a minute that Dennis should not have been a member of the Beach Boys from the beginning.  Not only was he integral to their image and success, but his own musical skills developed in large part out of learning for his older brother.  Dennis wrote some great Beach Boys songs and Pacific Ocean Blue is a great album, and both his Beach Boys and solo songs have a uniquely Dennis-sound to them, so I don't want to take any credit away from him.  But I do think that that specific Dennis sound wouldn't have developed if he hadn't been a member of the Beach Boys.

dennis was WAY better drummer than ringo.

What was it Dennis said about Pacific Ocean Blue? "Nobody listened to it...not even my brothers." Even if that wasn't exactly true, it's how he felt. Of course he never would have became the writer be turned into without learning from Brian, but still, he never really got himself together musically or personally. He made the one great album, he had a lot of great tracks on BB albums, but Denny never realized his potential, and died before he had a chance. I don't know that anyone could have controlled him enough to keep him focused, but if someone could have, then he should have quit the band around the time POB came out and went solo.

It's actually amazing Dennis lived as long as he did.  By 1981 he already looked like he could have dropped dead any minute.

That is true, but much of the praise for Dennis seems to have come in the last decade or so. As said by Jon Stebbins:


Dennis has been vindicated by history. Unfortunately, he didn't live to see it. Very bittersweet.

He was in the right group for sure. But I wish he'd managed to get his solo career off the ground sooner.

Me too.  I'd say that the Wilson brothers should've broke away from the group in the late 60s early 70s.  They would've been FANTASTIC!  Denny sure learned a lot from Brian (Carl too), I wish they would've collaborated more.  If only their lives had been stable at the time I bet it would've worked out great.

What was the Beach Boy who got more songwriting credits between 68 and 73?

Brian.

In second... DENNIS WILSON.

The guy had worse problems than not being loved enough by other BBs. Bambu was kind of 80% done, a label ready to release it and he couldn't get it together. That's more sabotage (self-inflicted) than anything the Beach Boys have ever done to him.

POB only sold decently, and I don't think Bambu was better or more commercial than that. I think Dennis figured there was no point in releasing it. He gave "Love Surrounds Me" to the BBs and nothing happened with it. The moment wasn't right for his music. I actually think he could've done better had he got some of the POB stuff out sooner.

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

I remember feeling this way in the beginning of my fandom. Nowadays, I'm very glad it didn't happen like this. Granted I'd have done some things differently, but still.

Please tell me what Brian did differently with Pet Sounds than any album prior? Was it producing? Was it writing the songs? Was it using a different lyricist like he did with with Usher and Christian? Was it the personal feelings like In My Room or Don't Worry Baby or Please Let Me Wonder or Kiss Me Baby? I don't see how Pet Sounds is any less a Beach Boys album than anything that came before it.

If anything, you're only further proving my point.

I just meant, he could do ALL that, all on one album with not only no noticeable dip in quality but actually a significant increase.

I know, the rest are nothing. The vocal blend means nothing at all. The others are all untalented hacks, huh? Even Brian knew better than that. Brian knowing how to use those voices proves my point. They are all Beach Boys albums, because those voices make all of those songs better.

Either be one of the most unbelievably brilliant musicians of all time or piss off.

Ok, you wanna stop putting words in my mouth? It's already full of ice cream and oatmeal.

Seriously, I never said that or anything like that. Just that Brian could have made it on his own by at least '66 or '67 if he had wanted to. You provided some evidence that he was doing some of what it takes to be a solo artist/producer of other acts even before those years.

Do I really have to put a disclaimer on everything I say so that people don't swoop in and assume the worst-case or most dramatic interpretation of what I said? Like, calm down.

Anyway, this whole tangent is irrelevant to the thread. I was just addressing the point because someone brought it up, but I really don't want to derail the conversation.

Again, not what I said at all. But yeah, if you're unbelievably brilliant and writing/producing pretty much everything, I'd say the other guys just singing harmonies and playing their instruments (oh wait...on the studio albums, that was mostly the Wrecking Crew, wasnt it?) need you more than you need them. Not that they arent very talented too, of course.

Ok, that's it for the Brian tangent from me. Dennis. How about you guys try to address the bigger part of my post that was actually on-topic?

Well, I used to read - maybe in the Leaf book - that many times Brian was unhappy with the group's vocals, and would go in later and do all the vocals himself. Yep, Brian didn't need those ungrateful, greedy hacks messing up his music!

I understand where Mujan is coming from.  Of course, if Brian wanted to he could've done all of the vocals himself.  But of course, it wouldn't have been the same.  If the rest of the guys didn't provide vocals, then that would've been a Brian Wilson solo album (yet I've seen it stated many times that Pet Sounds was a Brian Wilson solo album featuring the BB).  Brian had and extraordinary gift that was recognized right away by him and everyone else, and I read in one of the books that the he/or the company was promoting him as a genius--and it got to the point where people thought the rest of the guys were his "puppets".  Dennis had to develop his gift (and earn the respect he got through those songs--and it wasn't until recent years where people finally realized that his talent was bigger than "O yea, he's the guy who wrote 'Forever'").  He on the other hand had a low self-esteem and having that would cause him to say "He's everything, we're nothing.  We're just his f*cking messengers." ::) Man, I hate that quote because it's not entirely true, yet people take it so literally.

Thank you. And for what it's worth, I feel the same way about Pet Sounds. SMiLE too.

I don't think it was so much low self esteem as much as hedonism, lack of motivation and rampant alcoholism/drug abuse which held Dennis back. Of course, when you're in a bad place like that, the support of those around you can make all the difference in the world. If someone he respected *cough*likeBrian*cough*had said "Hey Denny, I really liked POB. We really f***ed up not using more of your songs on the albums before. When's Bambu coming out, d'you think?" it probably wouldve been just the motivation he needed.

I agree.  Dennis had nothing but good things to say about his brother and Brian always got the support he needed from the rest of the guys (well idk about Mike).  I think though that in a lot of ways they were both very sensitive, Denny just didn't show it on the surface like Brian did.

I'm not advocating Dennis presence in the Beach Boys to be questioned but I have often wondered (fantasized) what could have happened post POB and the Last Waltz is Dennis had joined forces with The Band's Rick Danko and perhaps put a band together with Ricky, Blondie and some hot guitarist - so creative and so combustible on so many levels. Pure fantasy ...

I recall reading in the same book that Brian went through agonies over having to tell Dennis that his drumming on "LDC" had been replaced by Hal.

Just because it's printed in a book doesn't make it accurate, or even true.

I've never held myself up as an authority on the Beach Boys; I've just worshiped the band most of my life and read everything about the BBs I could get my hands on.  But it's been my opinion that Brian was absolutely the least supportive, most dismissive of Dennis' musical abilities of any of the Beach Boys (outside of Mike Love, maybe).

Jeez. I wouldn't go THAT far (as to say Brian was "most dismissive"). Also, damn, Mike co-wrote a few Dennis solo songs, songs that were seemingly never meant for Beach Boys records, thus no personal gain for Mike outside of a few literal pennies in royalties. Doesn't that mean anything to you guys?

Should also mention that at one point or another every member of The Beach Boys (With the exception of Blondie and Ricky, who were at the right place at the right time) was in the wrong group.

You think Mike was in the wrong group?  Al for sure, he could've had his own folk band.

*sigh* :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

What group would Al be in otherwise? No offense to him personally, but it's not like he had the songwriting chops or household name brand of the Wilson's. Mike is largely talentless and lives off the brand name; no way hed ever want to be anything but a Beach Boy. I think everybody was held back and probably largely made miserable from the late '70s on. But I think Brian and Dennis are the only two who proved that they could have made it on their own if they had really set their minds to it. Carl did make two solo albums, but from what I've heard from just about every review I've seen is that they arent very good.

Again, just because you can't "make it on your own" with the musical chops of Brian "Jesus" Wilson doesn't mean you wouldn't do well as part of another group. The implication that Al and Mike are "talentless" or nearly talentless isn't appreciated. No, they didn't write and produce five thousand songs a year like Brian did in his peak, but their names are attached to some really nice songs, productions, and performances.

Some people are meant to go solo and others aren't.  Al definitely could've continued singing folk music with another group and Mike could've joined Jan and Dean.  The Beach Boys were/are considered a "rock group" but Dennis was the only one who really knew how to rock.  Carl was heavily influenced by Chuck Berry and was a great guitar player, but his stage presence wasn't anything compared to Dennis behind the drums.  And Brian just wanted to write symphonies.  It's been discussed in other threads how being a frontman just comes naturally to Mike and that Dennis needed more confidence if he was to take on that role (his jokes were better than Mike's though that's for sure).

I wonder how the Beach Boys ever made it big with so many untalented members who couldn't rock.

You are my new God and I appreciate your existence.

How is this still even a thread?

Look at clips like the TAMI show and tell me who was getting the crowd wild.  Listen to some interviews and tell me who got the most responses from the crowd.  Watch that 1974 New Years Eve special, did their performance leave you feeling excited?  :-\ 

Absolutely! Shame that Dennis couldn't be coaxed or eased in with being more out front. I'm sure that people would have rather seen him than the lovester who looked more like their dad. :lol

Ikr.  Ever stop to think why the camera panned on Dennis during Carl's guitar solos?

:lol

To be upfront, I don't think any of these people , individually, would have been in a band at all, if they hadn't formed the Beach Boys. Al and Brian were in college studying for degrees. Carl was still in high school with typical teen aspirations. Mike and Dennis were joining the blue collar rat race. But, if we're talking about post SMiLE potential for careers outside of the band, that's another discussion.

So, considering them separately, in reverse order of potential and purely in my own opinion:

Mike: To go solo, Mike would have needed to create a voice of his own, apart from The Beach Boys. I'm not sure he really cared about that as much as he wanted to keep the band afloat.  Mike seems to completely identify as a Beach Boy. To join another band, he would need to team up with someone who needs a hook writer who can front a group in his particular style. That might not have been a great fit for other bands. These days,  I don't think there's anything really "natural" about Mike's abilities as a frontman. He's very studied and rehearsed and he uses the same gestures and jokes in every show. In fact, when someone else is singing the lines he's used to delivering (as in C50) he STILL does the hand gestures! Is he comfortable up there? Sure. But, he's not spontaneous. His act has been in rehearsal for 50 years and that's how he wants it.  Mike may play around with solo projects and he may want people to think more highly of his talent, but he is definitely in the right band.

Al: Alan's primary outside musical interest was in folk music, and if he had wanted to leave the group to pursue joining up with the Kingston Trio or some such band,  I think he could have.  I doubt he'd still be performing with them now, since the Beach Boys have far outlived the folk music trend.  Unfortunately, I don't think he would have had a massive solo career outside of a folk music niche. Or, maybe children's albums, like Raffi. :D  So, Al probably could have sung in a folk group, but he's better of having been in the Beach Boys.

Carl: Well, we know Carl had the vocal chops for a solo career, but his attempt at it didn't really yield much. Once again, you have to bring something to the public that the band can't. You have to find your own style and message. Carl's attempts to do that didn't quite click. I do think Carl could have lent his voice and guitar to other songwriters, or collaborated with a partner to get a career going outside of the Beach Boys, but he didn't really pursue that. As far as joining another band… Yeah. I think he had a talent,  skill set and personality that would have worked in other bands.  Was Carl in the wrong band? No. Could he have gone solo? Maybe. Could he have joined another band? definitely.

Dennis: Based purely on talent,  Dennis definitely found his musical voice and could have done solo work. But, talent or no talent, you have to deliver the album, you have to deliver it on time,  and you have to show up for the gigs. That's the business side of show business. I always suspected that Brian's initial reluctance to include Dennis in the band was because Dennis hadn't shown real interest in music and wasn't dependable in other things. Along the line, he developed the music. Not so much the follow through. So, could he have developed a solo career? Yeah. If he had applied himself to it. Could he have joined another band? Probably… if they could depend on him. But, if he could have done all of that, his Beach Boys experience might not have been quite so contentious and he might not have been so unhappy in the first place.  Was Dennis in the wrong band? No. Few other bands would have hired a second drummer just in case he decided not to show for a gig. Could he have gone solo? Not long term. His own hedonistic nature was against it.   Dennis had the talent, but he lacked discipline. And discipline is just as important to success as talent, looks and heart.  

Brian: This is tricky. Brian actually has gone solo;  but, given the choice in the years immediately surrounding Pet Sounds and SMiLE, I don't think young Brian Wilson would have chosen to be a solo artist, at all. The talent was certainly there, but I think young Brian only really wanted to be a producer. I think he would have been very happy producing a variety of talent, including the Beach Boys, and singing when he needed his own voice on the track. Brian always seemed most interested in creating the sounds, not performing them. Of course, young Brian Wilson's success depends on a mentally healthy young Brian Wilson.  SMiLE or no SMiLE, I think Brian was headed for trouble all along.  But, given mental health,  could he have gone solo? As a producer, yes; but, he was never really comfortable enough on stage to become a solo performer. After his break down and long absence, Brian's had to go the solo route to get back in the game. But, I think, at heart, he's still a producer. Was he in the wrong band? No. Could he  have been successful outside of the group? Probably. But, only if he stayed healthy.

As I look at this, I have come to the conclusion that these guys were all in the right band. As frustrating as they all found it as some time or another,  The Beach Boys were the only band that would have put up with all their individual issues. Maybe that's why none of them have really left.

Look, maybe some of us want to have sex with both Dennis AND Mike.

You just took me back with Raffi :-D
On topic: You have great insight, I appreciate your response.  This band is so interesting because they did a lot for the music industry together but yet there's so much stuff from them that we still haven't heard yet or songs (or albums) that didn't reach full potential.

Every time I listen to "Silk Degrees" I think that Carl would have sounded great singing songs like that (Blue Eyed Soul).


Listening to things like "Baby Blue", " Love Surrounds Me", "Rainbows", and " Angel Come Home" make me think that Carl & Dennis had  the synergy to be a successful duo.

I think they would've been awesome as a duo!  Denny's version of "Good Timin" has a lot of soul in it, they could've both sang it together.

Don't forget David Marks, he could certainly rock

Right! I wish he would've stayed with them longer  :(

At the same time?

Now that's an unpleasant thought!

Who knows, it may have happened with a groupie at some point  ::)

I don't see how any girl could take him seriously with those robes and the fact that he had more hair on his chin than on the top of his head  :old

Do you laugh when you lie?

Do you?

Ooh, burn

I'm surprised this is the first response you made here

It's all just very silly.
Glad to know you still care about me, though.

I care about everyone  ;D

 ??? Was there a specific reason why he wasn't featured on the In Concert Album though?  I think it's a slap in the face to see him being the only BB on the cover but none of his songs were featured.

You're overthinking everything, I think. I don't think this was deliberate or even an oversight (i.e. someone saying "Denny's songs aren't important enough to consider"), there were probably no meetings between Mike and Bruce where they were snickering "Let's... NOT PUT ANY OF DENNIS' SONGS ON THE ALBUM! AHAHAHAHA!" or anything, it probably just worked out to be that way. I didn't even notice there were no Dennis songs on here until you pointed it out.

Brian has no leads on Carl and the Passions. I don't think it was deliberate, I think it just happened for a number of reasons, none of which had to do with, "f*** Brian, let's intentionally exclude him." I think it's the same on In Concert. Nothing deliberate, nothing in the way of just not thinking to include his songs because they didn't like his songs, it just worked out that way.

There's only one song that was largely Carl's work, zero songs that were largely Al's work, zero songs that were largely Mike's work, only two Ricky/Blondie-written songs, why no complaining about those? I don't mean to sound rude, but you're overanalyzing things and inventing things out of it because you like Dennis a lot.

No I'm not.  I do like Dennis a lot but I'm not the only one who has brought this particular topic up.  I, like many others, don't see why they couldn't feature a song of his on the live album, especially during that time where he was up front with the rest of the guys. 

Among other possibilities, have you considered that Dennis may not have wanted any of his songs on it over the songs that were chosen? Maybe he didn't find any of his performances of these songs satisfactory? I'm not saying that's why, but they're possibilities. I don't think any reason has been given for no Dennis songs being on the album. Like I said, it may very well have just happened and worked out that way without any reason and no one was upset about it.

For the record, a Dennis song would've been a fine addition to the record, to me, and I would've chosen some of his stuff over some of the stuff that did make it. Which of his songs were being played live around that time?

I think you're forgetting that when you spell Love backwards, it sorta sounds like EVIL!

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Well, to me it's just odd.  I mean you have 3 different recordings of him singing "The Wanderer", you have 2 different recordings of him singing "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away", he sometimes sang "Do You Wanna Dance" (though I've never heard a recording of that) and on MIC we have him singing "Little Bird".  During all of those times, his main role was being behind the drums, so it was pretty rare for him to be up front then I would think. "All I Want to Do" was recorded during those London shows but wasn't released on the Live in London album.  But the In Concert album came out at a time where he had to be up front due to a hand injury (as we all know) and he was at his vocal peak, and from 1972 I've heard 2 different versions of him singing "Help Me Rhonda" plus he sang "Forever" and "Cuddle Up" a lot of times and "I've Got a Friend".  So for me, I don't get why he wouldn't want a song of his on the album, that's all.

There were 4 of his songs on Sunflower.  If there hadn't been a dispute about which song should close Surf's Up, then he wouldn't have felt the need to shelve "WIBNTLA" and "Fourth of July" ( and let's not forget that for the first BB boxset, Carl literally had to fight to get Denny's songs on there, which says something).

Even though you annoy the heck out of me, halblaineisgood, you can't be too bad.  After all, we both can say that the BB are the main reason we're here right  ;)?

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Must you go offtopic and derail this thread?

Anyway, it would have been great if a few Dennis songs were added onto In Concert. As much as I like the album, aside from the newer Holland-era material, the majority of the album consists of earlier pre-SMiLE songs. I wouldn't say drop tem entirely, but at the same time focus more on their then-contemporary material, or even more stuff from 20/20-Surf's Up. At least it wasn't exactly old yet in 1973.

Thank you.  It sucks this happens so often.

And yea you would think that they would've at least included "Forever" on there.

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I don't think it's that surprising of a setlist: it focuses on the songs everyone knows them for and songs from their latest album.  Much as we all like Friends and Sunflower here, I don't think it's too surprising that they didn't include anything from albums that were a few years old and didn't sell very well at their release.  I do agree, though, that which Holland tracks they decided to include on In Concert seems a little odd, and I, for one, prefer "Only With You" to all the songs that they did include except maybe "Sail, On Sailor."

On the other hand, we did get a nice recording of "Only With You" on Made in California last year.  In fact, even if it doesn't speak well to Dennis' recognition in his own time, the fact that four of the fifteen live tracks on the box set were Dennis songs is a pretty good indication of the fact that his music is getting the recognition it deserves from fans (and box set compilers) now.

Yeah, it's a big sign of his vindicated status of the last few years, along with the POB/Bambu reissue from a few years back. Been a long time since Carl had to persuade everyone to include Dennis songs for the Good Vibrations box set...

Your last five posts have consisted solely of this. Do you realise how annoying, and infantile, it is ?

The fact that there was even an issue about this angers me  :angry.  Why wouldn't you want to  include your deceased brother/cousin/bandmate's work on a box set like that?  But also WIBNTLA was supposed to be in a later compilation album and got outvoted until finally the fans started petitioning to get the song on MIC.

I don't think it's infantile, it points (haha! :-D) to a computer problem which prevents him from doing real posts. I could be wrong, but let's wait and see.

I THINK the only songs being performed during the time they were recording for "In Concert " that featured a DW lead were I've Got A Friend, Cuddle Up, Forever and the occasional lead on Help Me Rhonda. None of those were show staples so there may have been only one (or maybe two) recordings of those specific songs. If there was a technical glitch with the recording or if someone didn't like their performance, there may have not been a second recording to choose from. So that could be a reason why one of those weren't included on the album.

Recently we did get Help Me Rhonda on the MIC box set.

Also, the two shows that I attended that fit in the timeframe that In Concert was recorded from, I don't remember Dennis singing any leads at those shows. Seems he took a more active part singing leads during the 1969 through early 1972 years.

To the other old timers like me, do you guys remember Dennis singing leads during the In Concert recording timeframe?

Doubtful, considering that he's been editing the vast majority of his older posts as well. Knowing him, It wouldn't be a stretch to say it's intentional. There's even a thread dedicated to that:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,19469.0.html

Back on-topic: It would have been nice if they chose to include the MIC version of Help Me Rhonda with lead vocals by Dennis instead of the version with Al. Oh well...

I bet there's more in the vaults that we still haven't heard.

Sorry when I went off topic earlier.

Back on topic....

I can say whatever I want as long as I segue ...
That's pretty neat!  :angel:

Back on topic....

Why would a "computer problem" cause all of my posts to turn into a period.   ::)

Back on topic....

They should have included both the Al Version and the Dennis version of Help Me Rhonda on MIC.

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The version of "Help Me Rhonda" on In Concert is one of the worst things I've ever heard on a Beach Boys record. That stupid "boogie" riff that plays for like five minutes before Al comes in, none of the leads from the original, that stupid "boogie" riff, no harmonies, that stupid "boogie" riff, etc. I know he was probably playing guitar, but I can't help but picture Al dancing around on one foot, wiggling his hands around with a huge smile on his face, while wearing one of many bad hats he wore in the 70s during said boogie section and throughout the song. Good GOD.

P.S. I love you, Al, I just don't like this rendition of "Rhonda" and frankly, I don't like the name "Rhonda", either.

My favorite feminine name has always been "Diana" personally.  :brian

As I said, I could be wrong. I hadn't noticed he had changed his name temporarily to "Effervescent Tides", so I thought it was someone else when AGD called him out.

Micha:  GO SUCK AN EGG!

Fair enough. Didn't even notice it was actually Hal until Retrokid mentioned it.

Speaking of "Diana", even though Dennis wanted the MIU album to self-destruct, he still delivered a great performance on "My Diane".  there's a cool clip of him on youtube singing that in the recording studio  :)

I don't like eggs and I'm not good enough in English to even tell whether that is an insult or not.

Ignore him, Micha.  He has nothing better to do with his time.  ::)

Must you derail the thread??? MUst you??

Back on topic....

Pretty much. And to Micha: it is what you think it is. Relax, Hal's said worse.

Not uptight at all. :)

My opinion on it is that Brian wouldn't have been commercial enough to make it on his own.  It's possible he was so talented that it would have happened regardless, but I think the other guys (all of them) created a cool concept that helped drive the music, and then Brian's genius behind it kept it all credible and kept them away from being a 1 hit wonder like Ronnie and the Daytonas, or whatever. 

As for Dennis in particular, I've always seen him the following way.  When the group first started, I think he was excited to be getting famous, he may have not been a perfect fit for the music but he liked the idea of the fame, the girls, the money, the travelling, the performing in front of live crowds, etc.  Later on, I think he was bigger than the group, and did it solely out of love for the band and his brothers.   He could have left and made his own music, and it may have not sold or been as big as the Beach Boys, but I don't think he was touring with them because he was really into the music, I think he felt like he was helping Brian and Carl out by being there and wouldn't have dreamed of leaving the band.  I think he felt like it was how he could contribute to his brothers, touring in the band they all created and being a part of that.  He probably, probably, PROBABLY felt like he was slumming a bit, though, if you can understand what I mean by that.  Almost like he was doing charity work. 

With you up until the last point. I think he was clearly disenchanted with the direction in which the band went, but slumming it? I don't think those speeches he gave after You Are So Beautiful or whatever were insincere. He'd be a fool to not be proud of the legacy he, his brothers and bandmates had created.

Why don't we let Dennis speak for himself.


"There will always be a Beach Boys. Being a Beach Boy is like being in love" Dennis Wilson


"If there wasn't The Beach Boys and there wasn't music, I wouldn't even talk to them. But through the music I fell in love with my brothers." Dennis Wilson

"We went suddenly from being a very large group into being a very small group again. It broke my heart. It hurt. "- 1977 Dennis Wilson

"I can tell you the day The Beach Boys will no longer exist - never. We'll be on stage in wheelchairs." Dennis Wilson

"The thing I wonder about is where does Brian's creative spark come from? Not his subjects or anything, but his spark. What makes it so great for me is that I really don't know.  There's a mystery behind Brian, even to me. Creatively, where in the f*** does the guy go? Where is he coming from?" - 1976 Dennis Wilson

"The Beach Boys are not a superstar group. The music is the superstar of the group.

Not in the wrong group. Just growing up.

^ Beautiful.

What interview did this quote come from?

That's a good question. When I first pulled it off of a quote site, I thought it was from the Fornatale interview in 1977. Dennis talks a lot about Brian and the group, and does start to talk about how the Beach Boys were a powerhouse but were now much smaller. But, on a repeat listen, I realized that he was interrupted and didn't finish the thought, so its' not from there.

Must check that out.

Yea the few interviews I've read and heard by him are all interesting.  But I haven't come across the one where he says this yet, I'd love to see it.  I hope one of us can find it  :)

A quote that is often overlooked, spoken in 1976, as it seems, commenting Brian's return to the helm:

"He [Brian] was always the absolute producer, but little did he know that in his absence people grew up, people became as sensitive as the next guy. Why should I relinquish my rights as an artist?"
(from the Rusten/Stebbins book The Beach Boys In Concert, an essential read IMHO)

In the light of this quote - hadn't Brian returned, Dennis may not have done a solo album, as River Song had already been played live at BB concerts.

Ok, this has become my new favorite Dennis quote  ;D.  I have this book too but I must have overlooked that

On the first 1976 page I think, going over to the next page. IIRC that quote is in the Badham book, too.

O ok great, thanks!