The Smiley Smile Message Board

From the latest AARP magazine, scanner was working today....


     (http://i61.tinypic.com/34823qf.jpg)

Why does he describe Carl as a rhythm guitarist?

Maybe he was mistaken or admired something in Carl's rhythm guitar playing? Carl did play rhythm guitar occasionally.

Did ANYONE have a designated role in this band 100% of the time after like 1962? GOD, GUYS, GET IT TOGETHER, STOP USING CAROL KAYE AND HAL BLAINE FOR ALL YOUR SONGS

Carl was a great rhythm player. He wasn't strictly rhythm, though.

No need for shouting. :wink

Carl was, by default, the "lead guitarist" in the band. But, since many of their songs don't have guitar solos, I'd say over the years in concert Carl probably played more "rhythm guitar" than lead. They would also hand over the occasional guitar solo to Ed Carter. Blondie also played leads during his stint. 

Long story short, most of the Beach Boys are good, and in some cases superb musicians, but they are and have always been much more about vocals and songwriting and arranging. I'm quite thankful for that, that they didn't enter some huge "guitar shredding" phase of their career.

On the other hand, it often seems that's what a lot of posters here were seeking, and proclaiming that would have brought the BBs a larger audience at the time

I think they could have given a harder edge, or a more punchy edge, to some of their output during certain eras. Maybe not such a soft, feathery touch on some stuff (e.g. the live version of "Marcella" versus the studio version, or even studio vs. live versions of "Keepin' the Summer Alive"). But not necessarily literally like extended guitar solos.

One thing I always felt Brian missed the boat on was the drum sound.  The 4 Seaons enjoyed a MUCH punchier drum sound.  So too did the Dovells/Len Barry.  I'm sure there were plenty of others...especially in the EAST.  Dion comes to mind.  For Brian...I guess it just didn't matter.  But you know what?  It did.

As for guitarwork...I've always been OK with it although it sounded really dated even before 'it' began with Bluebirds Over the Mountain and badly abreviated with Do It Again. [drums weren't too bad for PART of DIA]

As for Stamos...really?  Who cares?

Of all BB albums, one that surprisingly sticks out in my mind for having some cool, punchy drum sounds is "Keepin' The Summer Alive". For example, "Goin' On" has really popping drums, and I dig that sound since it made the band sound more modern for the times in a good way. No other BB album has that drum sound, so I wonder if Bruce was trying some new production/mixing techniques, or what.

Perhaps Uncle Jesse thinks more of Carl being a rhythm player as opposed to a lead player, because during his 80s/90s tenure in the band with Carl, there were other studio musicians handling most of the lead guitar on studio tracks (a situation which has always baffled me a bit in and of itself).

Carl WAS one of the great RHYTHM players of all time...Billy Hinsche said the exact same thing in an interview with a guitar mag a few years back...Chuck Berry and Keith Richards are two other "lead guitarists" who are also great rhythm players. Stamos' point was that Carl held the band together rhythmically, even when he played a lead intro and solo on a song, like "Surfin' U.S.A." and "Fun, Fun, Fun", which is why it was important for him to watch Carl's elbow.

As for the drum sound on "KTSA"...nothing special there, just your typical late '70s/early '80s "dead" drum sound, with plenty of strategically-placed dampers on the heads, close-mic'd and mixed to the front.

Thanks for that cool bit of technical info. I guess I like the "dead" snare drum sound from time to time. Maybe I dig it here since it's a curio that stands out a bit from most every other BB drum sound. I still love me some reverb, but this sounds pretty cool too.

Can everyone agree that the worst BB snare "drum" sound of all time on any released track is on "Slow Summer Dancin/One Summer Night"?

I have to disagree.  :)   I think many of the drum sounds were exactly what the track needed, and more importantly the sounds were ready to go and basically ready for a final mix on the studio floor. No need for the ridiculous gating and all of the various 70's-onward over-processing that ignored the natural sound of the drums, specifically the snare. Brian liked sparse drum parts, especially as the arrangements got thicker and had more instruments. By the time Pet Sounds came along, you had drummers like Hal and later Jim Gordon barely touching their cymbals, just hitting a perfectly placed snare and kick. It was Neil Young's "thing" as well, like Heart Of Gold and the Harvest album in general where it's kick and snare and it works brilliantly...wonder if he got it from BW.

And some of those "Heroes" outtakes where Brian added a lot of chamber echo to the snare sound are just killer, like the full string section fragment "Sweeping Strings" and another regular Heroes verse take where the snare is just slamming, again with a ton of chamber echo.


As far as the article, I went through a rockabilly/Scotty Moore phase where I seriously wanted to save up for a gold ES-295...glad I didn't, though. It looks and sounds great, but that Bigsby, not what I really needed. ;D  Awesome guitar, though.

One of the finest drum sounds ever, specifically the snare, is on Steely Dan's "Black Cow"...still the main go-to song I'll put on to test any piece of audio gear, especially speakers. That is one of the pinnacle moments in recording drums, hands-down. As crisp and as perfect a sound as was ever recorded in rock.

Sorry for the OT, but since drum sounds were being discussed... ;)

OK...but I referred to the 4 Seasons, Dovells/Len Barry and Dion.  I was talking about the 60s. 8)

bgas - thanks for that!  My favorite section near the end of the article..."When I (Stamos) first sat in with the Beach Boys, I'd stand behind him (Carl) and he would say, "Watch my elbow." I would follow his timing in that way." Wow!  What a great teacher and mentor Carl was.  :love

Brian came from the Phil Spector school. The focus was on creating a great rhythmic feel rather than isolating any one performance.  And say what you want about it, but it holds up great under repeat listenings. The rhythmic elements are so dense, even on the earlier stuff, that it's almost impossible to catch it all at any one time. Your ear loses something, and that's what keeps it intriguing. I find that I get burned out on songs by groups like The Who way faster than the Beach Boys.

The secret to Brian's music is he knows it's better to beguile the listener than bore him or her. By blending the kick drum in with the other instruments, for example, it's transformed from an easily digested musical part to something your brain can never quite wrap itself around.

Pet Sounds and Heroes were 60's too.  :)

Drum sounds: I think the drums sound much heavier on tracks Brian produced for other artists during his 1963 live band hiatus, much heavier than on any track he produced for his own band.

I say drum sounds do matter. I'm sometimes put off by the sound of the snare on the All Summer Long album tracks, it sounds kind of tinny to me. I love the sound of the snare on the tracks from the MIU sessions, to me they sound different from the typical 70s drum sound which I find kind of stuffy.

When people are praising the production of MIA and KTSA, maybe it's time to admit Brian knew what he was doing.

Cheers for the citation.  Checked it out, very cool, and rather of its time of course.

I love the drum sounds in the Brother era, with Dennis behind the kit in particular.  Fat, deep, sparse.  In the gut.

Scanner started working, so now you can see John's pictures...

Maybe Carl just thought he had really nice elbows? Mine aren't too bad, either.

IMO, 2 of the best drum sounds produced by Dennis (not sure if he's playing on them though): "Moonshine" + "Stevie".

Wasn't "Stevie" produced by Dennis + Brian? I think that's what I remember reading, and maybe it's my imagination, but I think I can hear Dennis' POB-esque drum sound on that track.

Yes - Dennis drummed on "Stevie" and co-produced it with Garby Leon. Killer track that I wish would be released. "Moonshine" has Bobby Figueroa on drums.

Thanks again c-man for that awesome bit of info. "Stevie" not being released is a bit puzzling at this point, but I have no doubt it will see official release someday. Not only is it a killer composition, but seeing as it's the only (I think?) properly recorded studio track of Dennis producing a song by his brother Brian, it holds a special fascination, even though it was recorded during super rough times for the brothers. That might be the reason it is unreleased.

Do you hear that distinctive Dennis drum production style (with a hint of the POB sound/production technique) shine through on that track too? I don't know if I'd have put two and two together like that if I hadn't known that it was produced by Dennis, and maybe it's just me hearing what I want to hear, but I think the sound does come through.

Oh, and I love that a thread about Uncle Jesse turned into a discussion about "Stevie"...

Large part of that credit (besides Bob Crewe) goes to ace studio man, the great Buddy Salzman, the Hal Blaine of the east coast. The toms on the Seasons classic singles give tremendous drive to Frankie's soaring reach. Those records still sound terribly exciting - like Dawn and Ronnie, Big Man in Town, Walk Like a Man, etc. Fantastic records.

From Eugene Chadbourne's bio on ALLMUSIC:

"When it comes to the Four Seasons, however, Saltzman seems to have been a favorite of the group's creator, Frankie Valli. The subsequent string of hits features the drummer's most aggressive and bombastic work, inspiring the following description of Saltzman over cyberspace: "God as a drummer." The point is well-taken. If God played drums, he most certainly would be sensitive to dynamics."

What's that supposed to mean?

PS...It makes me wonder...and I did the other day while this reparte was happening..."I wonder what Brian might have done if he'd recorded an album or two in the east back prior to Pet Sounds?

Sure would have had a whole different dynamic to it. :hat