The Smiley Smile Message Board

It has seemed to me that over the years Dennis and Mike's relationship went back and forth from tolerance at best, to acrimony at worst. It amazes me that they actually wrote a song together, especially one as beautiful as Only With You, considering that Mike always seemed to resent Dennis' material. Anyone know what the extent was of Mike's involvement in this song, or if there are any other gems out there the two of them wrote together?

They also wrote "Sound of Free" and  "Pacific Ocean Blues" together. I'm not sure if "10,000 Years" was originally written by Mike or was a collaboration between the two, but Dennis recorded several versions of that.

I've always thought that Mike and Dennis were more alike then apart. They had the two most dynamic personalities, and were always at the center of the show onstage, putting on a show, whether they were competing for it or not. Their writing styles are also more alike than you'd think: they both had a certain directness to their lyrics, as Mike will often say, and Dennis' love songs were almost always straight from the heart.

Let's not forget that they also shared an apartment together for some time, which really must've been a sight to see.

I seem to remember hearing a concert recording in which someone on stage (don't think it was Mike) actually did say that Dennis and Mike worked on it together.

Wasn't the last time, either -- same collaboration on "Pacific Ocean Blues." Rhyming "slaughter" with "otter" --> VERY Mike, if you ask me.

Carl says it was a Dennis and Michael song on the live version on MIC.

I'm not trying to start a new Brian fans vs. Mike fans debate here, but - did Mike always resent Dennis' material? I haven't observed that in any statement of Mike's or anybody else's, but maybe I just haven't paid close attention, I'm only human. Mike certainly did resent Dennis' drug use and certain onstage behavior!

I seem to recall that it's heavily hinted in Stephen Gaines' book that Mike resented the success and record company attention that Pacific Ocean Blue received. I think the resentful Beach Boy in question isn't outright named, but I took away the suggestion that it was Mike, possibly unfairly.

Like so much in the Gaines book, it doesn't really make sense. I'm not saying it's wrong (as I recall, there's quite a lot in the Gaines book that is completely wrong, but also much that has eventually been admitted by some of the major players in the story to be surprisingly accurate, or to at least have basic facts correct in a way that surprises some), but to me it doesn't stack up.

The Beach Boys were a hot, in-demand live act in the mid-70s. And much as we might find the records wanting, Rock and Roll Music and 15 Big Ones had been hits quite recently (and oh boy, I DO find them wanting. I find myself wanting to get out of the room any time I hear Rock And Roll Music. It's right up there with Barbara fershenliggen Ann as my least favourite Beach Boys track). Also, Endless Summer and the follow-up Spirit Of America were already über-platinum or whatever, cementing the group's legacy. They were starting to be known as 'America's Band'.

And against this backdrop, Mike (perhaps) is supposedly jealous of Pacific Ocean Blue. In with a bullet at, what, number 96 in the States, and not on the charts anywhere else?

Maybe it's one of the bits of the Gaines book that's simply heinously inaccurate. Or maybe Mike (if indeed it was him) really is off the chain to that extent!

If POB had come out just a couple of years later, when the Beach Boys mid-70s revival had flagged and they had a few more flop albums behind them, I could understand the supposed jealousy towards Dennis and POB a bit more (Love You, MIU, LA and KTSA didn't exactly burn their way up the charts, and with good reason, again whatever we might deem their relative merits and demerits). But coming when it supposedly did, it seems odd. If indeed it really happened at all...

Also, people are complicated. Families can be even more complicated. And famous families have to be the most fodad-up of the lot. So maybe (speculation time here) Dennis and Mike were cousins with a 'friendly rivalry' that just got out of hand over time. They both seemed to be popular with girls in the early days, but Dennis definitely stomped Mike into the ground as time went on there.

The group all pulled together as Brian withdrew. Everyone starts writing and trying to engineer or produce or whatever. During this time, Mike also tried writing with Dennis, and I guess that's how we got 10,000 Years (or didn't get it...) and Only With You. But maybe, from Mike's point of view, he could just never accept on some personal level that his rough-edged cousin Dennis was the most successful out of all of them (although still not to the stratospheric level that Brian was in the mid-60s). Dennis came up with some great tunes throughout the late 60s and early 70s, and seemed to be no slouch at production either. Mike produced the Pickle Brothers (unreleased) and, er... um. (OK, that's unfair - he did also create Big Sur, which is awesome. Oh yeah, and has he ever mentioned that he was the inspiration for Back In The USSR...?).

Come 1977, the Beach Boys revival seems to be losing steam. Brian looked like he was getting better and more involved, but left to his own devices, comes up not with a new SMiLE, Pet Sounds, or even a new Today or Friends, but with Love You (which, much as I love it, was commercial suicide, really), and then Adult/Child (even more out there than Love You).

And then Dennis finally does what he's been hinting at doing for years, and gets a solo album out there. It's a minor hit, but equals Love You's sales. That probably got Mike's goat. And James Guercio did seem to lavish a lot of time and attention on Dennis that perhaps Mike thought the group should have been getting instead (or was Guercio only supposed to be managing the Beach Boys after POB - I can't remember)?

Dennis's record has even got Beach Boys collaborations on there, which could be another thing - maybe Mike thought when he worked on Pacific Ocean Blue (the track), and when sang Carl backing vocals, these were going to be Beach Boys tracks, like the earlier Dennis solo efforts that went out under the group name. The group did sing River Song live during one period too, didn't they? Perhaps it was annoying to see what might have been regarded as group efforts instead go towards a solo release (although Dennis had already given the group quite a lot of songs in the late 60s and early 70s).

Ill-informed speculation and armchair psychology on my part, of course. I know nothing, really. But I can imagine, with the kind of screwed-up turns that familial relationships often take, that all of this stuff might have been enough to irritate Mike, at the very least.

Thanks, Matt! So it seems Mike was less resentful of Dennis' material per se, but of his going on his own AND overshadowing the Beach Boys' "success" that Love You had. Makes sense.

(BTW: Congratulation for the umlaut in "über"! :) )

Hej Micha,

Ich war 'mal Deutschstudent, und wohnte sogar eine Weile in der BRD - deswegen...! Die Sprache kann ich noch, obwohl sie jetzt etwas 'verrostet' ist...!

Matt

Wow... PERFECT spelling and grammar, very hard to do in German! "Hej" though is Swedish, I think.  :wink Ist das lange her, dass du hier warst?

There is a very pointed Jack Reiley quote about the level of resentment that Dennis faced from members of the band not named Wilson. Also a very direct Daryl Dragon quote. Al Jardine of course has made the same point many times, that Dennis was not appreciated. None that i can think of specifically call out Mike.

Unglaublicherweise sind es schon 23 Jahren, seitdem ich in Nord-Hessen wohnte...! Mööörr fäähld ja de' Ebbelwoi...

Ich habe öfters 'hej' in deutschem Text geschrieben. Das war eigentlich nur als einen (schlechten und schwachen) zweisprachigen Witz gemeint. Kommt einem Engländer 'Deutsch' vor, wegen dem Jot; ist jedoch einfach die englische 'Hey' nach deutscher Schreibweise buchstabiert...  ;)

Ich habe noch Freunde in Frankfurt, und bin oft auf Urlaub in der Naehe. Ich bin beruflich auch ab und zu für technische Übersetzungen aus dem Deutschen ins Englische verantwortlich. Die Sprache ist mir vielleicht deswegen noch nicht entkommen...!

But we're getting off topic. As I've mentioned here before, and unlike a lot of frequenters of this board, I find Dennis's work, and his voice, harder to stomach as the 70s progresses (I actually like his late 60s stuff best of all). But in '72, he was still producing songs I like (and he hadn't yet wrecked his voice, either). Only With You is one of his great songs, I think. I like all of the versions he did of it. IMHO, it's a rare example of Mike and Dennis working well together to create something really good, which neither of them might have made in quite the same way without the other...

I've heard Mike on live concerts give credit to Dennis' songs in a positive manner. Also Daryl and Al in interviews. I don't think Bruce would have resented Dennis' material, or even Ricky or Blondie. So it seems that if it wasn't a Wilson that resented Dennis' songs (unlikely anyway with exception to Carl's track selection on the Surf's Up album) then that would leave Mike. Either because he didn't like Dennis' extracurricular activities with alcohol, drugs, women, whatever, but because of jealousy. So Reiley or anyone else may not have called Mike out for it specifically, but I'd have to think it was Mike who at least somewhat resented it. It took YEARS for some of the Dennis material to be formally released (into the 90's). And remember all the times comps have come out and Dennis was slighted (under represented) and many thought it was because Mike still holding a grudge against Dennis, even after his death, and voting nay on the release of said material?

Perhaps...in looking at Dennis and how, from Mike's up close and personal point of view, he seemed to literally be falling apart and breaking down right before his eyes and ears...Mike resented that somehow THAT GUY...in THAT KINDA SHAPE could get a record released and promoted while he couldn't?  I think I'd be a little flabergasted myself.  And maybe Mike was too close to the realities to be able to step back and consider just how gifted Dennis was...and how much moreso he might have been with his creatives crafts if he wasn't so badly damaged by the events of growing up in Murry's house.

There was a time when the two of 'em used to head out together...on a bit of a tear.  The 2 Musketeers.

Given that I am a Carl and a Brian guy first and foremost...it strikes me odd that I really only invited Dennis [posthumously] and Mike to my Wedding.  One of our three main songs at the service...sandwiched in between The Wedding Song - Paul Stookey and Turn Your Lights Down Low - Bob Marley...was 'Only With You'. :o

GREAT song for Lucy and me.

I didn't realize Pacific Ocean Blue was written with Mike. I thought Dennis wrote that with Gregg Jakobson. Also, I can just about imagine the flow of women in and out of Dennis and Mike's apartment!!!!

Ya...It would have been worth it to rent next door just to satiate those turned away and 'disappointed' .  Poor dears.

Tough job...but somebody has to man up.

I have boot recording of "I've Got A Friend" where Mike introduces it as "one of the best songs I've ever heard in my life"

Sounds extremely resentful to me, huh?

I have interviews with Dennis' wives and closest friends who describe him as clean and sober during a time... in the '70's.

Like anything, one moment or one comment or one quote does not give you the full picture.

The only time I remember Mike messing with Dennis, is that interview where they're playing tracks from the early version of "Add Some Music"..in 1970 or 1971.....where they're discussing Dennis and his work on the film "Two Lane Blacktop"....where the interviewer asks, "What's the movie rated??"   Dennis replies "R"....and then Mike says, "What's that for?  Raunchy?".   Is it the WNEW interview??  Some station in New York I believe?  Help me.

Mike and Dennis definitely had their fights on stage.  The 1977 CBS Convention or something comes to mind, where it's been said Mike had been away, doing some TM class or something, and came back to perform at this show, and Dennis might have been a bit drunk.  I think there's some story to the effect that Mike tried to lift the Grand Piano Brian was playing and throw it at Dennis...I may be wrong.

And of course, the "Pity About Mike Love" t-shirt!!   This cracks me up, and I remember these times well, and hearing about all of the tension.  

As for the band having their differences....regarding LOVE YOU versus POB back in 1977, there's a great Rolling Stone article during that time, which talks about the band splitting into two separate factions and getting on separate planes to the same gigs.  One faction would come on stage from the left, the other from the right....

Sorry if I don't have exact details and dates, feel free to correct or confirm anything I've said.   There's so much from the mid 1970s to the early 1980s.....what a crazy chapter in the Beach Boys' history!


Dogbone

Sounds like their interview on the David Frost TV show from May '71 (audio only, sadly).

Dogbone...I recall MC'ing a concert in Toronto...the old exhibition stadium...bandshell facing the BIG north grandstand...and the band came onto the stage from 2 separate directions.  That, if I recall, was also the one and only time I was around the 'boys' where virtually nobody was in the mood to talk.  It was weird.  Two different limos too I think.

Most folks in the stands wouldn't have noticed.  Back then Carl used to remember to flash on a quick smile every now and then but it faded just as quickly as it appeared.  Long time fans will remember that.

Ah, Lee Marshall, I knew it was you!  Of course we remember Carl's quick smile.  The band came from 2 different directions. Was that by chance in 1977?

When I interviewed Mike last year I asked him specifically about "Only With You". He said Dennis just asked him to write lyrics for it, which he did.

Good example of the credit Mike was giving Dennis at the time. Musta been during a period when they were getting along good.

Even if that quote only is a pixel os the whole image, where can I find that quote? Is it in one of your books? That would be interesting to read.



I I find these things too.



Not easy to read for a North German like me, but I got it. Very well!  :thumbsup

Hi Mikie.  Ya...You caught me.  Just kind of thought that maybe I should move away a little from using the real name on-line...especially if I'm gonna do any 'spouting'.   Water builds up you know.  And then...BOOM!!!   I think "The less cyber-space knows about me the better. "

Anyway...It wasn't 77...'cause I was still in Winnipeg then and this happened in T.O.

Big changes though from '72 when I first spent serious time with Carl to the later 70s and 80s.  [and now]  They all used to get along quite well I thought.  [Brian...not so much...but, again, I have some personal theories about why SOME of it came off the tracks there and it had more to do with the artistic Brian than the man in need of a proper diagnosis.  although perhaps the two fought each other as well...the mis-diagnosed guy and the artistic guy.]  Anyway...too bad about Shut Down.  Good site that.  This one?  It'll take me some time to kind of figure out who's who.  LOADS of Brian vs. Mike vs. Brian stuff.  Gawd that's old. ::)

Add Some, this board is 10x better than the now defunct Shut Down board. No control freaks here and you're free to speak your mind (within the rules) without somebody looking over your shoulder all the time. Yeah, water builds up sometimes, but without people disagreeing once in awhile, the board would be boring. Excitement is good and healthy! Welcome back, man.

I would think Dennis and Mike had some respect for each other's talent and so they collaborated with each other. And don't forget Dennis had Mike do the vocal on "All I Want to Do," even though it would have suited Dennis well, too. Af course, Dennis chose to handle the tag on that one.  :lol

"Sound of Free" was released in Europe only, right? It's too bad it didn't come out in the U.S. (before Made in California). Obviously I'm a big fan of the song.

As for their personal relationships, I have to think that up until the airport tarmac blowup in 1977 that there were still good moments. The  Timothy White book describes a 1976 session where Brian (and presumably Timothy White) walked in on a very friendly conversation between Dennis, Mike and Stan. That's where Dennis said how much he loved "The Wiz" on Broadway.

Can you imagine what the Beach Boys universe would look like if Mike had handled the "All I Want To Do" tag ;)

If I'm not mistaken,  Dennis collaborated with Mike more than any other Beach Boy!

Mmmm ... my suspicion is that he collaborated more often with Brian, but those tunes weren't always release or credited as collaborations. Example one: Little Bird. Example two: vocal arrangements on Forever. Example three: Stevie. Examples four and five: Oh Lord and City Blues. And Brian nicked some of Dennis's stuff for Someone to Love on SI (he uses the San Miguel verse melody) and Rio Grande.

He collaborated with Carl more than any other Beach Boy. Dennis' co-writing credits with Carl include...Friends, When A Man Needs A Woman, It's About Time, Barnyard Blues, River Song, Rainbows...and some would add Holy Man. Wirestone is right that he also collaborated with Brian quite a bit, but in a different way.

Mr. Stebbins, might I ask again for the location of that Jack Reilly quote that you mentioned? You made me curious.

I paraphrase in the Beach Boys FAQ book, but I'm blanking on the source at the moment. Maybe in the In Concert book files I will find it. It was def out there.

I own both books - which chapter in the FAQ?

Jon - by chance, is anything known about what Dennis' songwriting contributions were to the songs Friends and When A Man Needs A Woman? Wondering if its known if his contributions went beyond writing drum parts on those tunes.

The paraphrase is on page 125 but the actual quote is even more biting than that. I'm looking for it.

I'd never heard that his co-credits on the Friends songs had to do with drum parts. With the song Friends i know he contributed to the vocal arrangement and I'd bet it was the buildup aaaaaahhhhhhh, but I have no specifics on either. It would be a great thing to learn about, but I've found that when you ask Al he doesn't remember, Brian might.

Isnt that Jim Gordon on drums for Friends?

My guess (and this is just a guess) is that Dennis and Carl just leaned in and came up with their own harmony parts for the song as Brian banged it out on the piano.

Thanks! :) To those who don't want to get up and fetch their copy from the bookshelf, in the FAQ it is said that the group voiced jealousy of the songs on which Dennis sang lead.