The Smiley Smile Message Board

Who agrees that holland was the last true BB album? Love you being brians album with the BB name on it,,,miu, light album and keepin the summer alive were made up from mixed sessions from previous yrs..

Not sure about that, but I think Holland's their last classic album (if you discount In Concert).

It would be helpful if you specified what you mean by the term "true BB album". ;) There are many possible conceptions of the term - some would even reach as far as including TWGMTR (and why not - it says "BBs" on the cover, it features multiple BBs and songs penned by different band members). I'm not trying to be difficult, just saying.. terms like that are often used loosely. :P Also, M.I.U. / L.A. / KTSA all featured newly recorded material at the time they were released. Why not call them "true BBs albums"?

Well... I guess it depends what you call 'the true Beach Boys'. But that's a game that might never end. Some people say the Beach Boys can't continue after Brian and Mike's post C50 fallout, making TWGMTR the last album. Carl fans say the group hasn't been the Beach Boys since he passed away - so that makes Stars & Stripes the last Beach Boys album. Meanwhile, Dennis fans say there hasn't really been a Beach Boys since Dennis's passing, so that makes Keepin' The Summer Alive the last one — although there's so little Dennis on that one anyway, many say it's actually the L.A album that's the last one.

A hardcore Brianista might say the last true Beach Boys album was Love You, as that's the last one where Brian was fully engaged and a major part of the composition and production. But even more hardcore Brianistas might say no, the last one is really Friends, because by 15BO and Love You Brian wasn't the force he once was, and had shot his voice, which did so much to define their sound. But Friends, and indeed Wild Honey and Smiley Smile, were only completed with a lot of assistance from Carl, because Brian was so spaced out post-SMiLE. So perhaps for a real hardcore Brianista, Pet Sounds is the last TRUE Beach Boys album.

But then... surely the classic Beach Boys is when Brian did the music, and Mike the lyrics? That's how they had their most hits. And Mike had been pushed out in favour of Tony Asher by Pet Sounds. So it must be Summer Days and Summer Nights that's the last true Beach Boys album.

...

...er... no, wait, hang on... that album doesn't actually feature the Boys playing together much. It's all these Wrecking Crew guys, and who's this Bruce Johnston guy floating around? So that clinches it. The last true Beach Boys album is Today.


...except...

...there's not much 'Beach' in the Beach Boys' Today album, is there? I mean, what do you think of when you think Beach Boys? California Girls, right? Surfing USA! SUMMER! So that's it. The last TRUE Beach Boys album is All Summer Long.

...but no, hang on. Who's the guy that really drove that fantastic surf sound with Carl in the early days? The ESSENCE of the guitar-heavy, poptastic young Beach Boys! David Marks! I mean, he's back on stage with them now, right? And he's on the 2012 album. So there you go. The last TRUE Beach Boys album was the last in the series that he was on. Little Deuce Coupe.

Except... that record's all about cars. And cars are not what the Beach Boys are about. I mean, it's in the name, isn't it? So the last TRUE Beach Boys album must be the one before that.

So there you have it. Conclusive proof that Brian Wilson's first production, Surfer Girl in 1963, was actually also the last TRUE Beach Boys album.

...

...boy, those guys didn't have much of a career, did they?

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Why is it always Ryan Reynolds doin' the reaction shots? Why not the Olsen Twins, or Bea Arthur?

We don't talk about Full House here.

I think of Love You as a Beach Boys album, it's as much a Beach Boys album as Pet Sounds is if not moreso.  They all sing on it and get at least one lead vocal each.

Yep, Love You was the last real BBs album. After that, the Wilsons couldn't put it together for a whole album. I know some are satisfied with Mike being the Beach Boys, but it doesn't cut it for me.

SIP is the only album that is totally Mike. If your remark is steered toward the touring band, we are talking two different animals here.

I feel like LA picks up where Holland left off after the "Brian's Back" episode got them sidetracked.

I agree, but they could've chosen some better tracks for the final cut of that album.

This whole premise is wrong - the Beach Boys were a singles band. The last real Beach Boys record was probably Kokomo - it was a record (although promo copies of Still Cruisin' exist). TWGMTR might count, if we include 45's sold with t-shirts.

It was a simplified comment. Too much Mike, Al, and Bruce on the later albums for my tastes. Carl made efforts, but those efforts were generally more accomplished than inspired.

I'm sorry, but it's not the Beach Boys to me when two of the Wilsons are basically absent.

I love all the Wilson conditions that we put on The Beach Boys. There's "No Wilson's, no Beach Boys". Then there is No Dennis, no Beach Boys, today I see The Beach Boys died along with Carl. Me, I'm happy they have lasted 52 years, and it may not be over yet.

To me the last true album was TWGMTR, but I can get on board with the idea that the albums after Holland don't have the same feel as earlier albums, certain songs being excluded.

I agree completely. There was a drop off for sure, but thankfully sparks of beauty, as well.

After Holland they just became an oldies act. Hmmm wonder how that happened.....

My thoughts on post Holland.

15 Big Ones: 4 songs I like. Poor follow up to Holland.
Love You: Better than 15 BO. 5 songs I like.
M.I.U. Album: Very soft rockish. 5 I like.
L.A. (Light Album) 5 I Listen to.
Keepin' The Summer Alive: Not a good album. Endless Harmony is the only one I like. Dennis's last. :(
The Beach Boys:  Getcha Back & California Calling is it for me.
Still Cruisin': Eh. The title track is the only good thing, well that and Kokomo.
Summer In Paradise: I'm just gonna skip that one.
Stars and Stripes Vol. 1. The Beach Boys are many things, but country isn't one of them. A soft spot though cuz it is Carl's final album. :(
The Reunion Album: Nothing would thrill me more then to say I like this album. Mmmm but I don't.

Aah, Dennis and Jim Guercio is what happened. :)

I love Brian's vision, I love his need for perfection. His songwriting is beautiful/unique, and the way he puts albums together is like none other...it's these traits, plus his guidance that makes a perfect Beach Boys record, imo. Holland, Sunflower, Surf's Up, all wonderful albums, but they don't have that Brian Wilson trademark...they feel clunky - they're albums with brilliant songs that seem to be strung together by force, rather than by design.

I see Friends as being the last true Beach Boys album....where the guys were putting in ideas, making great efforts to write/record great material....And there was Brian, at the helm, steering them towards making a beautiful cohesive record.

What is it about TWGMTR that you don't like?

15 Big Ones: Other than 3-4 songs, a complete travesty.
Love You: A classic.
M.I.U. Album: Listenable.
L.A. (Light Album) Totally underrated, great record.
Keepin' The Summer Alive: Good record.
The Beach Boys:  Good record, even with the tinny recording style.
Still Cruisin': Kind of a ripoff, but I like a few of the tunes.
Summer In Paradise: Like about 4 of the songs.
Stars and Stripes Vol. 1.: Never listen to it...I don't really consider it a BB album.
TWGMTR: Very good record.

There's quite a few things. I posted them awhile back but forgot where. Now you may all think I'm nitpicking but to each there own.

1.) THAT to me is a Brian solo album with Joe Thomas's fingerprints all over it. I could mention another persons name but that would start World War 3 yet again.

2.) The name of the album. I refuse to say it. Too long, makes no sense, no reference to there roots or the fact they were reuniting for there 50th.

3.) The Cover Art. Colorful mountains or colorful waves....? The 2 pics of the guys were just eh. The first pic Mike and Bruce's face... Not good.

4.) No liner notes.

5.) No dedication to Carl and Dennis.

6.) Mike being the lead singer had what 3 to 4 songs..? Brian like 6.. Alan 1 to 2?. Bruce should of had 1 or 2. I know David isn't a singer but he could of had 1 rockin instrumental.

7. The title song is really good. From there to back again is also good. But to me it's all nostalgic. Exactly what the beach boys are typecast as.. Fun in the sun. I know them to be so much more. I would have liked to see a more Dont Fight The Sea feel. Now that is a great freakin song.

I think that's it for now.

Ok, I get where you're coming from even if I don't agree with all of it.

2)  Agree, it should have been called something else.

3)  Yeah, it's kinda generic, but I don't think it's too bad.

6)  I think the distribution is pretty fair.  Now if the album had an extra 2-3 tracks (I think it should have), then I would say throw in a Bruce and David track.

7)  Sure there is Beaches in Mind, Spring Vacation, and Daybreak, but other than those I don't see any of the other songs as fun in the sun types.  There are the four songs from the life suite, Think About the Days, and Pacific Coast Highway.

This would have been my ideal track listing:

1) Think About the Days
2) Do it Again 50th anniversary edition
3) That's Why God Made the Radio
4) Isn't it Time
5) Waves of Love
6) Soul Searchin'
7) Spring Vacation
8) Beaches in Mind
9) Daybreak Over the Ocean
10) Don't Fight the Sea
11) You're Still a Mystery
12) Strange World
13) From There to Back Again
14) Pacific Coast Highway
15) Summer's Gone

I left off Bill and Sue because it is just an awkward song to me and I left off Shelter because I felt like it.  :p

That's the best part of the title.

Absolutely. Yeah, the title might be a little cheesy, but I'd rather that then "The Beach Boys Reunite For About Five Months".

And their roots are a love of music and harmony; a spiritual tribute to music, "That's Why God Made the Radio".

What is why god made the radio? What is what...

If you go by the song, "for falling in love".

I think there have been end of eras, but to me, of the majority of surviving Beach Boys get together and put their voices on an album and they call it a Beach Boys album,  then O consider it legit. That doesn't mean I like them all. But I see many eras that have ended. This is how I split it.

1. Genius Brian Wilson in sole charge of their songs ended when he abandoned Smile.
2. Brian still a major influence,  but allows for more imput by the band. Ended after Friends.
3. Brian is no longer in charge.  The band period,  mostly led by Carl as the producer. This era ended with Holland or In Concert.
4. The Brian is back period.  A rehabbing Brian takes charge again.  Ended after the Adult/Child sessions.
5. Second group period,  but fractured.  Ended after BB85.
6. The Mike Love period.  It seems that most of the new songs released were Love/Melcher through this time. But I will include the Nascar and Country albums on this.
7. TWGMTR is it's own thing really.  

"He waved His hand, gave us rock 'n roll
The soundtrack of falling in love
That's why God made the radio."

For me, the whole song is a call back to the band's roots as young people cruising around town, listening to the radio and being influenced by the sounds they heard. Youth. Rock 'n roll. Falling in love. That's why God made the radio. The Beach Boys carried on that tradition.

You also mentioned that the title didn't mention their roots or 50th. I guess they could have just called it "The Beach Boys 50th reunion album." But, I liked the more poetic approach.

The Beach Boys: That's Why God Made the Radio.

Yes. Yes, it is.

calling the beach boys a singles band then so werw the beatles, stones etc, it was is and always will be bou the singles...the BBs made two dozen albums ,half of them integral and quintessential,,, surfer girl, all summer long, today, summer days, pet sounds, smiley, sunflower and so on jus like meet the beatles, rubber soul, revolver, the stones aftermath etc........

My attempts at humour are too subtle for this board. :(

Emoticons are your friends. Use them.

All this talk about TWGMTR makes me want to share this anecdote from August...

My wife and I are in the Psychedelic Garage Ensemble group at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. We had a gig at a church picnic in August (hmm....isn't that pretty much how the Beatles started?....just sayin'....), and before one song, our instructor/leader announced something like "Some of you older folks might be familiar with this song." I said, "I was born almost ten years after it was a hit and I'M familiar with it!" She said, "That's why God made the radio!"  8) 

Good title for a song. Bad title for an album.

If what I'm told is true, Brian wanted to call the album Summer's Gone but the rest of the guys convinced him to give it a happier title.

Wow...that would have been perfect.  What a missed opportunity.

My old ideas for the reunion album title.


Tales From Hawthorne

1961

Made In California

3701 W. 119th St.

Americana

I'm sure they gave it their best at least up until BB85... and even after that there are some moments of actual brilliance. KTSA is not a great album (which is perplexing because some of the songs are really quite good on their own) and M.I.U. is totally lightweight (if somewhat pleasant and very listenable from time to time) but other than that I think they did pretty fine. I have a bit of a soft spot for their 80s singles and I actually think Still Cruisin' is very similar to Carl and the Passions, although it's probably not even half as good; both albums relied on past glories (CATP/Pet Sounds, Still Cruisin' containing a couple of old hit songs) as well as creative forces from the "outside" (The Flame and Terry Melcher, respectively); also, both albums had an artwork somewhat related to cars and in both cases, Brian's involvement was limited (big fan of He Come Down, by the way!). Anyway, personally I love Kokomo, Somewhere Near Japan and, to a certain extent, even the cheesy stuff such as Island Girl or Make It Big.

Last night I listened to BB85 and MIU (both of which I roundly dismissed for years) and really enjoyed it.

Except for Made In California (which I'm not gonna believe you thought of before the box set), those are all kinda weak titles. The title would be just 1961? What would that mean? Would the album be about that year? Makes no sense. Tales from Hawthorne is a little too "inside baseball" and nostalgic. I personally like the fact that the album title has no reunion connotations or nostalgia inducing elements.

Sorry your not a believer.

1961. The year they were formed...

I thought the guys were all about nostalgia. So it would have been a perfect title.

Your use of commas infuriates me and makes no sense.

And I have no idea what a "true BB album" is. It seems like, based on your vague criteria, 15 Big Ones is a "true BB album."

no

Uhhh...partially yes, actually. (And that's true for a LOT of Beach Boys albums, come to think of it.)

MIU includes leftovers from 15 Big Ones and Adult/Child with a few new tunes from a skeletal Beach Boys crew.

KTSA -- "When Girls Get Together" dates back to Sunflower, and Santa Ana Winds was re-produced from the L.A. sessions, if Bruce is to be believed, although I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually completely rerecorded.

The thing is, the Beach Boys were largely a singles band. But by god they were arguably one of, if not the greatest singles bands ever! Of course post-Pet Sounds they were more of an album band, but i've always loved/preferred picking out the gems on most of their albums. Its almost like the box set was invented just for the Beach Boys. ;D

For me, the last true Beach Boys album was "Sunflower". Brian had a big hand in the songwriting, was enthusiastic, etc.

"Holland" is an interesting album but Brian only makes a couple of cameos. I can't consider it a true Beach Boys record in the way I view "Sunflower".

As for TWGMTR and as (shockingly) great as it is in parts, it's missing Carl. That's an enormous hole in the talent pool to fill. They did their best under the circumstances but...

Obviously, yes, there are leftovers, but he constantly says that those three records are made entirely of old material that they threw together three times to make those albums. Or that 20/20 is made up of leftovers and singles. They're not.

Surfs Up feels like a real end of an era for me. In my opinion I don't think the following albums (C&TP and Holland) are anywhere near as good and it closes perfectly with the trio of Day In The Life of A Tree, Til' I Die & Surfs Up. You can also still strongly feel Brian's shadow looming over the album. When you think of the path they took from 1961's 'Surfin' to 1971's Surf's Up that would have arguably been a brilliant time to call it a day. I'm glad they kept on going though.

I like that notion of 'Brian's shadow looming over Surf's Up'. It's a nice expression of what made that album so utterly fascinating to me when I first discovered it. Both his presence and his absence can be felt over the course of the album and then there's that short cameo lead vocal on Take a Load off Your Feet (of all things, easily the silliest track on the entire record of course) on which Brian is sometimes credited as a co-writer and sometimes he's not, which is something I always found strange in a fascinating way. I don't know whether they did it in a conscious fashion or not, but on Surf's Up I feel they really perfected that image of Brian as troubled genius recluse.

I think it's a clear, not to day mind numbingly obvious bookend to a period in BB musical style and, indeed creativity. First we have the effect of Murray's death on the Wilsons, then there is the salient point that the non-Wilsons never contributed songs of that calibre again, and while it's fair to say Al may have had a few in the can, they seldom saw the light of day in the post Endless Summer surge. It's also fair to say that Carl's contributions were rarely anywhere near as good as they were in this period (Angel Come Home, maybe?). Love You aside, it's the last band album where I can sit down and listen to (and enjoy) every single track. The only two albums of new material that I feel comfortable doing that with AFTER this period are POB and BW88 (and I'm annoyed by the production on the latter) - and Bambu if you want to count the second disc in the POB re-release. I don't fall out with the BB after this period; I love the stuff (that's why I'm here) but I get annoyed by some of the choices made and the desperate attempts by most members (including Brian, but I realise that between Landy, drugs and the sale of Endless Summer, he may not have had the wherewithal to do otherwise) to turn out songs reflecting their 64-65 heyday that exhibit little of their quality and end up being a tad embarrassing.  I think the one time they came near to a wholly good album after Holland and until TWGMTR was the Light Album, but, as we've discussed many times before, some of the more potentially interesting numbers were left off at the expense of guff  - about half an album's worth of guff, in fact.

Of course, I could probably do something similar for other artists I like - or liked. I think the wheels fall off Springsteen's wagon after Tunnel of Love. I'm not dismissing everything that comes after, but it doesn't have that consistency and a lot of it is lacking in the quality. Van Morrison after Into the Music. Joni Mitchell after Night Ride Home (maybe after Wild Things Run Fast). Stevie Wonder after Hotter Than July. They all continued to make music I like and most of their albums have obvious gems, but there's an awful lot of stuff that does little for me. Dylan? Street Legal to be sure, but I like the unreleased version of Infidels and have soft spots for Time Out of Mind and Love and Theft. Paul Simon? Graceland - or at least the unreleased MTV Unplugged show that knocks spots off the released Central Park one - but, again, there is stuff on most of his later albums that I enjoy, though You're The One is a stretch. Then there are artists I like whose work had a;ways been a bit hit and miss - John Hiatt, Jackson Browne and Tom Petty come to mind.

Holland was their last legitimate album, think about it:: 15 big ones was a tribute album of covers with a handful of new tunes; love you was brian qilson solo album with the BB name contractually on it; MIU was a thrown together album from old sessions and rejected leftovers, same with the Light album and KTSA ...after Holland the only hit songs they had was chucks Rocknroll music and then kokomo...they began the 70s where they left off in the 60s as a progressive rock band, holland ended that, every album that followed was purely contractual obligation, the heart was gone, with Love you as the only exception.

With that logic, you cannot deprive BB85 of the "legitimate album" status. All new recordings, no leftovers!

Holland is one of my least favorite Beach Boys albums - same goes for Carl And The Passions. Not my least favorite, but among my least favorite.

The spirit of the band is just not here on, like, 80% of it, the material is lackluster save for a few tracks, and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way. As spotty as 15 Big Ones is, stuff like "Had To Phone Ya", "It's OK", "That Same Song", and a couple others mean worlds more to me than the generally very contrived-feeling stuff on the two prior albums.

Right on, brother.

+1

Do you ever actually read anyone else's posts? When people disagree with you you simply ignore all their points and come back and repeat the exact same thing you said in the first place.

Nah, the post isnt about is holland anyones favorite album, its dissecting its quality as being the end of an era and their last substantial output release that was recognized for so, if it sounds repeated thats just how it appears..

Have to agree with the post which named the LIVE album right after Holland as 100% worthy of notice and respect.  To me...'Holland' was the LAST great studio album...until 'Smile' finally saw the light of day and until they actually got together with faculties basically intact for 'That's Why 'the man in the sky' Made the Radio'.  The rest contained some really good tunes alongside some [by Beach Boys established standards] downright STINKERS.

My point of view comes with grey hair because I lived it as it happened.  I didn't discover the Beach Boys after all was said and done.  I didn't suddenly realize that they were better than I'd previously thought.  I was there as THEY happened.  As Brian sunk from the playing field and as they continued to ignore the enormous talents of Dennis...the Beach Boys became irrelevent...except to their died-in-the-wool fans.

Some of the compilation albums containing surprises [like the Box Set, Hawthorne CA. etc] were great to get and full of GREAT surprises...but Holland was the end of the IMPRESSIVE line.

I've said it before...I do NOT like the 'term' Brianista.  I think it degrades Brian and your fellow fans.  Brian was obviously the MOST creative of the lot.  Only Dennis could come close to giving Brian a run for his creative money...for awhile...but to assume that we Brian fans LOVED 'Love You' isn't necessarily always true.  I thought it was simply horrible.  [and I was never a fan of Smiley Smile either]

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runnersdial0 said..."and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way."

Well actually...YES THEY WERE.  Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains [and the lost album] were progressive to the extreme.  And so it continued...pretty much with less and less Brian but with more Jack instead.  The progressive FM radio stations at the time played tracks from Surfs Up, Carl and the Passions and Holland.  That was the end of that though.  Out came Endless Summer and suddenly Mike was back in the spotlight...and Sha Na Na at the Beach was born.  Fun is good.  Creativity is better [for me].

I think there is a difference between "progressive rock" and "Progressive Rock". The latter they were clearly not (imho), though they may have experimented with that image around the time of Surf's Up and Holland (to a certain extent that is).

Not just Mike. As discussed earlier, Dennis and all the rest took the direction of Jim Guercio who has made no bones that he is the one who encouraged them to embrace their past, in concert. If you were there, as you say, you know that they fought playing too many oldies in their shows, right through 1974. 15 Big Ones happened for quite a few reasons: It was a way to get Brian back in the saddle, it played to the oldies that were being performed in concert, and lastly, many big acts were into recording remakes of 50's and 60's material. Mike may have embraced doing the oldies to sold out stadiums, but prior to 1975 you also will find him sometimes almost scolding fans in the audience for yelling out oldies titles while the band were trying to perform newer material.

I think there's a difference between "progressive", which the Beach Boys often were, and progressive rock, which, to me, generally did not suit them or play to their strengths. I feel like some people cling to the Ricky/Blondie years mostly because it's more "serious" and "dignified" compared to the likes of their public image nowadays (UNCLE JESSE KOKOMO LOL BUT PET SOUNDS AND BRIAN WILSON THO), but to me, it just doesn't feel like The Beach Boys in most ways. I'm not saying it needs to be Mike Love's Surf 'n' Sun Band 4ever, there's just a vibe or feel (or something) that runs throughout much of their catalog that is almost completely missing from those two albums (and the '74 live record). Something big is missing and not really made up for in other ways, something makes these records sound very dated overall (not in a good way) in ways that many of their other albums are not. There are a few exceptions in specific songs, but not many.

"It's OK" is "fun", sure, but who says it's not also totally creative? A Beach Boys record doesn't have to be "fun" to feel right, but I don't think "fun" and "creativity" have to be mutually exclusive at all - see Smile for about the best example I can think of, in this context. Some might have seen something like "It's OK" as regressive back in '76, but to me, songs like "It's OK", "Had To Phone Ya" etc. were The Beach Boys finally feeling like The Beach Boys again. These songs are totally unique and distinctive and had a lot of charm to them that you could only find on Beach Boys records. While there are nods to the past in there, it still had a lot going for it in terms of being something they'd never really done before. That, to me, is worlds more progressive than simply following the serious, dignified prog/blues wank rawk of the day. This is obviously not true of every song on 15 Big Ones, but it absolutely applies to Love You, which I feel is one of the bigger reasons that record is held in such high regard.

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Runners is right on the money!

Don't think the Boys ever did wank rock. Don't think the environmental concerns expressed on Surf's Up or Sunflower were an attempt to catch the vibe of the day - they seem to be concerns that are still close to Al and Mike's hearts. I think the early 70s albums flow smoothly from those of the late 60s kicked off by Smile. The guys were aging, expressing themselves. Dylan of 1974 didn't sing the same stuff as Dylan of 1964 and so on. We all have our favourite BB eras, but don't deny them the ability to develop their writing and ideas - otherwise DW fans would never get past Denny's Drums and Little Bird, Cuddle Up, Steamboat etc would be utterly dismissed. They're far less one dimensional than some people, including fans doggedly attached to a particular time period, would like to think.

One way that Holland could be considered the end of an era is Brian's second breakdown. I've heard some on this board mention that he was never the same afterwards, but I'm fuzzy on the details. Was that discussed much in Catch a Wave? It's been like 4 years since I read it, I'm not sure I remember...

Murry's death.

What do we consider to be his first breakdown?

The Beach Boys ended when Carl finished puberty.

1964 plane ride breakdown.

In all seriousness, BB85 is the first BBs album I don't consider 'classic era'.  By then Brian is marginalized (even if he got a few vocals and songs, it's really the first album where they didn't promote a Brian single OR have him either cowrite or produce the majority of the songs), Dennis is gone, and Carl is more or less just going with the flow. I unofficially consider this the beginning of the Mike Love Era.

Yeah, I guess that or SMiLE. Admittedly my terminology was kinda vague. The plane was an acute panic attack I think, while SMiLE was a drawn out creative and social regression. If I knew more about whatever happened on Holland I could say which one that more closely resembles.

Runners... i hear you...and I get what you're saying.  I don't completely agree...especially regarding Love You...but I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.  Your perspective is totally valid.  So peace.
Mr. Cohen...the exact second Endless Summer hit the shelves...the Mike Love era officially began.  Even if there were a few detours and road-blocks.  And then there's now.

Thank goodness Bruce didn't use that stick. :lol

As lot of music acts went retro around the same time the Beachboys did 15 Big O nes.   People say the last real B album was Holland because they followed that with ES and 15BO.   But think about the avalanche of others covering oldies in the mid seventies:   ronstandt, Taylor, Hot Tuna , and many others.   They later resumed doing more original and current music, same as the Beachboys.  That's really my only comment on this.  think about it from that point forward.

I don't know donald.  They just seemed to settle.  The progression was over.  [Except for Dennis who did it...and for Carl who tried...and then finally for Brian who succeeded.]

Settling is never a good thing.  They didn't know what to do.  Which way to go.  Their best stuff...except for Dennis'...was singing back-up for other artists.  Their own stuff?  Ehhh!!!  Too much of it was merely so/so...at least by Beach Boys standards.

I'm not into settling.

I don't think Brian is either.
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Houses settle.  Humans?  That's the kind of thing that can kill a man.

When regarding how they gravitated toward the early rock nostalgia its important to note how the mid 70s was the era of rockNroll rebirth...the BBs reestablished themselves commercially with Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones and then came the Ramones who indirectly picked up where the BBs left off; look at how Sheena, rockaway beach, shes the one, oh oh love her so etc all had a prevalent BBs flavor, it wasnt just irony~ joey & dee dee were advocates of Brian and Spector,..

I think HOLLAND/IN CONCERT feel like the end of an era because there's a straight-line progression on every album up to that point.  HOLLAND is a VERY different sounding band from SURFER GIRL but you can see, bit by bit, how they got to that point through each of the progressive albums.  15BO represents more along the lines of a reboot for the band.  I agree with those posters who say that in some way "15BO" are MORE Beach Boys than the album that preceded them, in terms of vibe and what all, but it's a clear break from the progression up to that point.

I think, though you could make an argument that the thread on HOLLAND carries through PACIFIC OCEAN BLUE and dies out on LIGHT ALBUM (or BB85 if you want to really stretch the point, since it's about 50% Carl), whereas there's also a thread that starts at with Spring, "Child of Winter", 15BO, peaks on LOVE YOU, and starts to fade through MIU and KTSA.  It's almost like there are two timelines operating in tandem.  MIU and LA are interesting because they are consecutive albums but essentially are being made by two different bands (or two halves of the same band), and sound it.

Good points, Adam. I think what becomes clear is that the duality in the band--Brian's "architectural" creativity vs. Mike's ceaseless search for the demotic (a more high-falutin' way of saying the commercial center or "the formula"--has been in operation ever since it first came into full focus on the All Summer Long LP. You can see the shifting tides of those two forces playing out on the LPs, creating an ever-changing dynamic of duality that stays intact even as the other band members become active songwriters.

Carl and Dennis write material initially inspired by the two sides of Brian that emerged as he moved beyond the application of Spector to the original "formula"--Dennis beginning with ballads, and then taking up the latent rock'n'roll side that Brian had left behind; Carl trying to write in the fashion of Brian's "art" side. Bruce's material was taking Brian's ballad sense into the realm of the outright sappy, transcending the treacle with "Disney Girls," a song whose timing (at a point when many had become weary of the angry blare of rock's counterculture assault during the initial 60s-70s changeover) was so fortuitous in lending Surf's Up some added critical cachet. That success, and the acclaim given to "Disney Girls" may have emboldened Bruce to jump ship when he saw Carl (and, in his own mysterious way, Brian) taking the band in a more hard-rock direction, souping up the old sound ("Marcella") and pushing toward rootsier hybrids ("Mess of Help," "He Come Down").

It appeared that the Holland album had smoothed out the rough spots in the transition to a new incarnation of the band, but Murry's death and escalating dualism (Dennis vs. Mike, Dennis vs. the rest of the band, Mike's power play in bringing his brother Steve in to replace Reiley) started the pendulum moving back in the opposite direction. Wtih Brian entering into his seriously "spiralling" period, the next dualism (TMers vs. partiers) snapped into place, and this resulted in a creative stalemate. Ironically, during this time frame America rediscovered the Beach Boys, but the dualism had been calcified and battle lines were drawn and redrawn over how to best take advantage of the band's resurgence.

That got us 15BO, the beginning of the band's chained series of "WTF? moments" that came into being in the frenzied aftermath of the resurgence. And the dualism is even more pronounced in the albums that come out in the late 70s, as Adam notes. The problem was that whatever impulse to be "progressive" that had propelled the songwriting/production efforts on Holland had been dialed back into a vague, hazy sense of the late 70s "marketplace" on LA (the influience of Bruce as a producer) or a failed attempt to reconstitute the unique, unrecapturable synthesis of Sunflower (which was the model for MIU, but a model that it missed by a few hundred country miles in songwriting quallity).

Holland was the last time that the band was ahead of its audience. From that point on there was a dualism between trying to do that again (sorry, bad pun!) and simply grinding out the formula.

Richard Meltzer termed the Beach Boys output "schizoid rather than eclectic" in his 1968 "sham PhD thesis" which was eventually published as THE AESTHETICS OF ROCK. Even though Meltzer was himself one of those "pure products of America" who "go crazy," he was onto something with that statement. It was true in '68 and it is still true today--which is one of the reasons why Brian is still mostly loath to "get in a room with Mike," I suspect. And yet it's that dualism--in all of its variants--that makes the band and its music so inherently (and endlessly) fascinating.

There's kind of an irony that there songs around the time of LA that had an element of that Holland vibe that weren't used - and two were by Al.

Which were they?

I don't consider him having a breakdown during SMiLE - at least, not that I'm aware of. And the 1964 nervous breakdown seems on a whole different kind of scale from what he experienced in the 70s to the point where it becomes something altogether different. And it seems to me that there's a genuine breakdown of sorts in 1968 during the recording to the Friends follow-up - isn't that the period where he was actually institutionalized for a short time?

Yes Adam...and Don.  That's pretty much how I see it.  Once they fell behind the curve...except for Dennis...it was only sporadic in terms of creativity.  They became followers...of themselves.  It was WAY TOO TOUGH an act to follow...especially w/o Brian being fully engaged and Dennis holding onto his good stuff for solo efforts.

A dog chasing its own tail becomes less and less amusing and entertaining.

The entire country went retro after American Graffitti.  Happy Days, Sha-Na-Na, etc.

           Job,  That further illustrates my point.   I think

Santa Ana Winds and Looking Down the Coast