The Smiley Smile Message Board

Ok, firstly, please can we stick to discussing the song in question and not get into people's boring oft-expressed opinions on the merits or lack thereof of Dennis' songwriting/genius/etc. Thanks!

So... Never Learn Not To Love is an awesome piece of work!

Yes, Manson's involvement casts a shadow but look past that and actually listen to the track - and loudly!

It really is a stunning production. Dennis' inventive streak is to the fore and there is just so much going on: the ominous opening; the amazingly intricate and varied vocal arrangements; the chord changes during the 'come in closer' section (this section in particular has been wowing me of late; listen to the pounding instrumentation as Dennis sings 'closer, closer, ahhhhhh-ahhhhhh' - the chord changes here, especially in the second chorus, just knock me out).

To me, this track - more than any other on Friends and 20/20 - shows how insanely quickly Dennis' talents in the studio were advancing. I think it holds up to Cabinessence (oh God, Brian fans, please don't go off on one about that: I'm not saying it's as good as Cabinessence, merely that it complements it...) and I think the closing trio of tracks on 20/20 demonstrates what a truly incredible band the BB's could've grown into had Brian and Dennis both not succumbed to their demons.

Yes, Yes a thousand times Yes!

The song is excellent, I really wish people would just get over how it was written by Charles Manson. So what? Whether it was Manson or not, the song's brilliant.

And agreed with the Cabinessence part  ;). Though I think Be With Me is a better example of Dennis's fast-advancing talents.

See, with me, I really like Be With Me - but I love Never Learn...

I love both songs  :) The highlights of 20/20 along with I Can Hear Music and Cabinessence (even if that one doesn't fit onto 20/20).

I agree the "come in closer..." line is my favorite part of the song.  I heard the original version of the song and it's nothing close to this one. and Denny did a great job singing it live on the Mike Douglas Show, his falsetto sounded nice  :)

I'd say the BB's became everything these last 3 tracks suggested they could be and more.
As for Never Learn Not to Love, the Manson connection does not bother me at all because I think Manson's original is a great song in it's own right. It's certainly one of Dennis' best productions, I sort of wish he'd made more of this and Celebrate the News style songs and less ballads.

You mean this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0v2bVX8j4

TBH I think Dennis could have done better on the vocals, I can understand some of the criticism on the comments section. But his singing on the studio version is far better.

I do too. I enjoy his ballads but (excluding Forever and WIBNTLA) I find that I listen to his other songs more

i like the studio version a lot more too and if i had to pick between his live version of this and Celebrate the News, i would pick the latter.  but i did like his falsetto because he didn't do that often.  there's a live recording of Slip on Through but the recording is not too clear so when he sang "By your SIDE" or "Oh my LIFE" it sounded kind of raspy compared to this

Same. I wish he made more rockers and others.

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Charles Manson or not, I still find "Never Learn not to Love" to be a boring filler track.  It's definitely the only Dennis song I don't like.  

Cabinessence and Our Prayer really don't fit on 20/20.  And what were they thinking, putting Student Demonstration Time on Surf's Up?  

Is "criminally under appreciated" supposed to be a pun?

Sorry, but I think one has to draw some lines, somewhere. Aesthetics and ethics cannot be 100% separated. I draw my "pure art appreciation" line well before songs written by Manson. Won't let a leopard eat me because it's a beautiful animal.

And the word "criminally" in the thread title... not a good idea.

Do you feel the same about Phil Spector's music? Do you draw the line before I Can Hear Music too?

To answer a straw man fallacy with another, would you listen with no problems whatsoever to a song by Adolf Hitler?

So... I'm assuming you don't watch any of Roman Polanski's films then? Or like any of Phil Spector's music?

In fact, I certainly hope you don't like any of Phil Spector's music (including any BB cover versions) because, unlike Manson, Spector actually did kill someone and so, you know, that'd make you a tad hypocritical, don't you think?

Hey, I knew I'd be flamed for what I said. It's my opinion none the less, hypocritical or not. Won't comment on that "unlike Manson..."

Why not comment on it?

Manson didn't kill anybody. Was/is he a sick f***? Yep.
Did he kill anyone? No. Fact.
He wasn't at the scene of either killing spree. Whereas Spector blew a woman's head off, with a gun, which he pulled the trigger of.
That's the same Spector who co-wrote I Can Hear Music, Just Once In My Life, Then I Kissed Her, etc.
And the BB's covers of these songs are pretty much straight on-the-nose cover versions, whereas Dennis very heavily re-wrote Never Learn... The melody and instrumentation are all almost entirely his creation.

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Actually it was more than likely Manson took a stab at Shorty Shea so yes he did physically murder someone. Still, it has zero bearing on me enjoying his music. I wonder if Aldof wrote any good tunes?

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The Internet is always surprising. I googled your spelling and got 61,100 results, first of them a Youtube video titled "Aldof Hitler".

I think there is one big difference though. Phil Spector`s crime came decades after all of those songs were produced and the songs have nothing to do with his psyche all those years later. The lyrics to Never Learn Not to Love obviously have a lot more to do with Charles Manson`s psyche during that era.

I can`t honestly say that I care too much about that myself though. I just find the song very average and I think Dennis wrote much better songs of his own.

I googled your username and all I got was sad jackass who seems to spend all his time on a board he can't stand with people he doesn't like.

I have little to add, so I'll make it quick.

That argument I just read was absolutely ridiculous and I totally agree with Disney Boy.

Whoever wrote it, or whatever the guy did in his personal life is irrelevant to the music or art or film or whatever. I don't give a f***. Separate the art from the crimes, I say.

So I still enjoy Polanski's films (The guy's an excellent filmmaker, regardless of what he did to the 13 year old), and I'm perfectly fine to listen to Spector's masterpieces. And I've enjoyed what I've heard from Manson so far.

Bottom line, I find it to be unnecessarily over-sensitive, ignorant, and in some cases hypocritical to want to completely ignore or avoid a person's art - regardless of quality - because of what the person may have done outside his work. It shouldn't be overshadowed at all, it should be remembered equally at least. Simple.

I'll not take this further, due to respect for the 95% of good guys here, whom I like. You have already said more about yourself than I ever could, anyway.

P.S. you made a spelling mistake on one of the other threads.

"Ridiculous, unnecessarily over-sensitive, ignorant, and in some cases hypocritical"? Wow, LSM, way to respect other people's opinions.

Thanks. Glad to have made your day.

Well hey maybe that's just LSM's opinion - in which case shouldn't you, you know, respect it?

Quick I hear someone is "bashing" Al Jardine in another thread. Go RioGrande, UP UP AND AWAY!

I draw a line here, too, between opinions and derogatory terms.

Well, how else would you describe your opinion?

Honestly, it's your loss. Such a shame you choose to completely overlook someone's work over what they did outside their music, which is totally irrelevant, but whatever  ;D

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This board used to be fun but now it just seems to be full of arseholes trying to start arguments and wind up other members. They just suck all the fun out of these debates. Whether they're deliberately being wankers or just mistakenly believe they're being amusing I really don't know, but man they are making things on here increasingly BORING!

Love the production. In some ways 20/20 may be the "darkest" Beach Boys album, which is a strange thing to say about a record that starts things off with "Do It Again".

ol' Charlie just wasn't a very good songwriter in my opinion, and no amount of production can save the song from being mediocre at best. again, just my opinion.

it's a damn shame that The Beach Boys were including songs by Manson and excluding songs by Wilson on 20/20.

1st. Your comment is completely irrelevant and does nothing but derail the thread.
2nd. I'm not angry, after all why would I waste my energy on a low-life troll?
3rd. I won't reply to you further, and I recommend you do the same. You'll most likely ignore me and continue, but I suppose that shows you are incapable of growing up.

I know how you feel man. But I urge you to stick around. Just ignore the arseholes and pretend they don't exist. It's easier said than done, though. I've always enjoyed your posts and I'm glad you created this thread.

I wish they'd covered Look at Your Game Girl instead of Bluebirds Over The Mountain.

Which specific Brian songs did they exclude from the album? "Old Man River" perhaps?

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I think Dennis' production and re-write more than brings the song to life. The 'um-a-now, um-a-now, um-a-now-now-now' section is goosebumps-on-the-back-of-ya-neck territory. I love the sound of it, the feel of it - everything.

I read that the vocal chant on the fade is what the Manson clan used to chant while sitting around the campfire stoned.

Really - or joke? Either way, I can honestly say it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the song (or the fade). The aforementioned 'um-a-now' section has always sounded a lot like the Love To Say Da Da/Cool Cool Water chant, only faster and more powerful.

For real, I'm racking my brain trying to remember where I read it.

I just issued a request of account deletion. My presence is not good for this board, and seems to draw the worst from the resident trolls. Also have much better things to do, in fact. Well, nobody is perfect, and even I have my off moments. :hat

I am posting this only to pre-empt any rumours that I have been banned.

My best wishes to the 90% of good guys here.

Rio

Great, thanks for that. Right, so sticking to Never Learn Not To Love because that's what this thread is about...

Is Brian on the track? Can anyone make him out?

can you help me find my own retrokid who will talk to mods for me?

Yeah I always dug this song.  Nice production, some great backing vocals, and a rather creepy nod to "Little GTO" at the end (perhaps unintentional?). 

Good thread.

to me it's like driving by a car accident... you listen to it knowing that you shouldn't and because it's a messed up thing to do. but at the same time you can't help but to listen to it because of the fact that it's messed up and you become intrigued by it, kind of like "Am I REALLY listening to this song written by a murderer?"... but you do it anyways...BTW I like Dennis' production on it, sure Manson's lyrics aren't very good IMO, but the arrangement is great, I get more "Disturbed" by Manson's original acoustic recording then the BB's version...I picture him sitting with his cult by a campfire strumming the guitar while they trip on acid and talking about murdering people..lol... ;D

I find it funny that so many have an issue with a Charles Manson song, but no issue with taking off work for holidays glorifying the Founding Fathers, who were terrorists who didn't want to pay taxes and helped kill more people.  But, hey, pick the easy fights, right?

That seems like an appropriate avenue of discussion for this thread.

huh? what?




I don't have a problem listening to Manson. A murderer he may be, he wrote some good songs. 'Look At Your Game Girl' off of his solo album is one of my favorite acoustic guitar songs ever. Others around him saw his musical talent..its a shame he's such a messed up person. He probably could have made it in the music business.

Ooooookay.

To the guy who wondered if Brian was on this track, I always thought I could hear him in the vocal stack on the bv's during the verses.

That would be me! I know the part you mean but wondered if that was Al doing his best Brian impression.

I always felt slightly guilty that I liked this song so much, stupid but...

Don't care much for Manson's version but what Dennis (plus maybe Brian) did with it is fantastic.

Actually how many people think Brian had a big hand in the production? seems very plausible to me

Don't think so at all. They would've listed his contribution in the production credits for 20/20.

sure that's a perfect example. it's a million times better than NLNTL, one of Brian's finest arrangements of a timeless standard, and further proof that the Beach Boys were making Americana music before the term was coined.

Yeah, I agree. It's always been one of my favorite outtakes, even in its (supposedly) unfinished state. Just like the Friends album, kind of Smile-like in a totally unassuming way.

I'm not a keen reader of the annals of crime, I know almost nothing about Manson. I really like the song. Surprised some people are claiming that it's objectively poor regardless of origin, it doesn't seem so at all to me.

I think it must've crushed Dennis more than a bit inside for this awesome production (which clearly shows Dennis pouring his heart into making every little detail perfect) to essentially become completely tainted within months of its release.

I think this is one of Denny's great masterpieces (maybe the earliest example of him using the studio in such a massive way, not unlike his brother); top shelf DW, in my opinion. Sounds to my ears like he *really* put his heart and soul into recording this song in particular... so I cannot even grasp what it must've been like for basically everyone (at least in his own world) not ever wanting to listen to/discuss this song again.

Beyond Denny's Manson association (in and of itself) which we all know weighed very heavily on him for the rest of his life, I'd imagine that this song becoming tainted goods (and everyone essentially wishing it didn't exist, wanting to forget it ever happened) had to, on some internal level, cause some major sadness. "Never Learn Not to Love" wasn't a little nugget like "Be Still" (another great song, but clearly just a quickly done one) - to me, it sounds like this was an attempt at Denny stretching his artistic wings to the fullest. It had to hurt that such a song as NLNTL had this fate.

And I think we can all agree that the song would never ever have been released at all if the Manson killings happened anytime before the release of 20/20... I wouldn't be surprised if there was discussion of taking the song off subsequent pressings. And if Manson's name had actually been credited as a co-writer on the song at the time of its release, that's probably exactly what would've happened.

Although I do wonder: pre-internet, how many people (outside of the band) actually knew Manson had a connection to this specific song?

It's not a bad song, but I have always found it sort of bleh. I think Dennis wrote much better songs than this one, although he fixed Manson's basic tune and made it as good as it could have been made.

It is hard to separate it from it's main composer.

It's an average song. It's not underappreciated. It's just not very special.

I love it to death. Powerful stuff. Don't care if Manson wrote it, cuz Dennis sort of threw much of the original song away-- creepy blues dirge vs. booming Beach Boys majesty. It's practically heavy metal, really-- sort of reminds me of "Kashmir".

Also, some of you people are destroying this message board.  Quit arguing about NOTHING in every thread.

(Fact: Dennis never wrote a hit song)

Disney Boy, you've been here for 3 years now, couldn't you search around the board & share your current opinion there:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11933.50.html

More interesting thread imo.

Range Rover, perhaps there would have been slightly more point in posting the above a little earlier don't you think, rather than waiting until after three full pages of very interesting discussion... If this thread is boring you feel free to just not click onto it again, thanks :)

This.

Given I read this whole thread w/o non-stop, it wasn't exactly boring, was it? If you took it that way, sorry. Been away of this board for weekend, that's why I didn't reference that topic earlier.

You Are So Beautiful.

Wow, I can't believe I forgot that! Of course!

So getting back to your original post: are you suggesting everyone should trawl through every single previous thread from the last three years before starting up a new thread just to make sure the topic hasn't been discussed previously?

Aren't you the guy who wanted to "stick to discussing the song in question"?

I like the song, as I do with most of Dennis' songs from this period.
The production is nice, although the intro is sort of unnecessary.

I listen to it when I listen to 20/20. Not really any other time.

True - I should have put it in a private message.

The intro is one of the best bits!! It's Dennis and the band being original and inventive and trying things out. Strange, however, just how ominous and creepy that intro sounds considering the subsequent revelations re the song's origins...

No, I agree that it's an interesting idea from the band, but after so many listens, I just wanna get to the song.
I've also thought about how the intro is sort of dark and how well it ties in with the song's origins.

The single edit omits the cymbal intro.

Yeah I agree, this is a great song.

I love love love that intro, but it makes sense for the single version to omit it, if the intention was radio airplay.

The one area the single version has the album version beat (IMO) is the outro. There's just a touch more trippy delay/reverb audible to my ears on the wordless outro fade on the single version, and that makes all the difference to me.

Somebody should make a mix that combines the best of both versions.

I can make it. Where can I find the single version?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwI-6_WMX8Q

The mono mix seems to have a clearer lead vocal.

I prefer this version tbh!

Ta-da!

http://www23.zippyshare.com/v/91636919/file.html

Excellent job, Mr. Babes.

Although, I do much prefer the album version. I think that lead vocal buried in the middle of all those dreamlike harmonies is the best thing about it! It's a good song (unfortunately) and probably would have been better if they'd went all the way and added more overdubs.

Nice job, Babes! What a freakin' tune!!

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Never Learn Not to Love is a fantastic song. I think Manson was/ and is a great songwriter. He could've killed and raped one billion children and it wouldn't take away that fact. Plus Dennis' vocals are amazing in that song.

If a person commits a crime, the fault is with the person, not whatever they have created. It's not the only song on 20/20 written by someone charged with murder. Cottonfields by Huddie Ledbetter and I Can Hear Music by Phil Spector are the other two.

I hope Jim Gordon didn't play drums on "Cabinessence"... :o

He did.

(http://u1.ipernity.com/38/33/93/27403393.876dc2c3.560.jpg?r2)

So three songwriters on 20/20 and one drummer who are criminals. I think they jinxed 20/20 when they put a black border on the album cover.

Brilliant post- and very true indeed! You can't have it both ways, folks. You either disapprove of people who unarguably committed murder (Spector) and/or people who allegedly committed murder (Manson) or you don't. There's no middle ground. Self-righteousness please take note!

Of course I take the side of putting the fault on the person and not whatever art they created; and it doesn't affect me to their art at all whatsoever.  ;D