The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've been on another all things Smile kick (boots, TSS, the lot), but the Dada sessions just seem kinda depressing. The end, it's all fizzling out, a flash in the pan.

In a weird way, you can kinda *hear* it on the tracks...just...not a lot of energy, not a lot of good vibrations.

Or maybe I should just go to bed ;)

You can even hear it on the Good Vibrations box set. The difference between Love To Say Dada and something like Heroes and Villains or Cabinessence is night and day.

I thought I read this song was worked on after Brian decided to scrap SMiLE.

Hold on!  Why would Brian Wilson scrap Smile for?   :afro  To me i love Smile and his other work

Mate, I've always, always stuck up for you in the past.... but, seriously, don't be so bloody daft.

I think the announcement that SMiLE was cancelled came after the sessions but they could've been over before I guess.

Interesting take on this. I actually don't find them depressing for a few reasons. First, the genesis of that riff was, I believe, in January 1967 - Now that time period in particular can be discussed a lot because I'm coming around to think the direction of Smile changed dramatically in December 1966...a lot of the "go for it" experimental attitude and energy/drive/determination seems to have fizzled out after a number of internal conflicts that shook the proceedings. Yet, as 1967 kicked off, some of Brian's really bizarre and unique experiments in the studio started happening around the Heroes fragments and section recordings. Some truly bizarre yet beautiful recordings came from that (Sweeping Strings, anyone? The typewriters, gongs, sirens, and everything else around the 'intro' title? )

"All Day" was a riff he was trying out, but experimenting with taping the piano strings combined with tape echo...all that cool stuff to make a new sound based on the Dada riff.

But I'll concede, there is something *different* about the Spring '67 takes of the song.

The reason why I don't find it depressing above all others is what eventually became of it decades later. I'll get confessional here...when I first heard "In Blue Hawaii" as a really crappy quality streaming audio preview, or something, I had tears running down my face, it was so beautiful and it finally felt like the potential hiding beneath all of Brian's studio sessions around All Day/Dada had finally been realized, and in ways I never imagined I'd hear from all the bootlegs, all of the variants like "Air Dada" and whatever else was floating around before BWPS.

It was one of the highlights of BWPS, a triumph of finishing what was bursting at the seams with potential for 40+ years, waiting for the final piece to be fit into place...

And I always liked the groove and the feel he had on that song going back to the '93 box set and whatever boots and mp3's it showed up on. Brian's piano playing on that track stood out to me because of the feel he had in the part.

But 2004...That was triumphant. So I can't hear the darker elements in light of what it eventually became.

What my rude friend meant to say is that Brian was having some issues in completing the album, and figured it would be easier to take a break from making it.

Smile never died, it just became the Catholic church.

They certainly sound like Brian's lost some drive. He sounds a lot less dynamic.

In my humble opinion, as an early listener coming into the Beach Boys fandom with only greatest hits known of their music and I had only heard GV and Heroes and Villains (Smiley Smile version) from those greatest hits, so I obviously didn't know anything about Smile. So after my first viewing of the BB: An American family, I found out so much about the Beach Boys that I never knew, and was intrigued about this "Pet Sounds" and "SMiLE"...so with only one song to go on from the TV movie (not including GV), the "Geronimo Leaps and Bounds over the Glory of the Dustbowl" tune, I wanted to hear more, something exactly like it. Little did I know that these scenes were exaggerated and weren't exactly what happened.
But anyways, after the buying of the GV box set a year later, I heard Love to Say Dada and could totally hear parts of "Geronimo"....this was Smile to me! It sounded like those wild and crazy songs I'd read about for a couple of years.

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When I hear it, I'm amazed at how cheerful Brian sounds in the between-take chatter.  What happened to cause him to scrap the final session?

If you're talking about the overly cheerful voice calling the takes out on the talkback mic, that's not Brian.  According to c-man's sessionography in the SMiLE book Brian was playing temple blocks the 1st day's session and piano on the 2nd day.  I don't think it's ever been confirmed who that guy calling the takes out is.

It's Gold Star engineer James (Jimmy) Hilton.

I thought it was a stoned Brian. Is that also Brian singing "wah, wah, hoo wah"?

Wasn't 1967 one of Brian's most prolific years? It seems to me he was anything but depressed. More than he ever was, I mean.

He looks quite down in the pictures from the Lei'd In Hawaii rehearsals.

Brian and Hal Blaine, from what I could gather. Hal is heard singing a bit on the basic tracking session.

Isn't there a picture of Brian seeming to have a blast on a motorbike from that trip?

Fun fact, you can "have a blast" and still be morbidly depressed.

The expression somebody is wearing at any given moment doesn't really reflect the overall mood of somebody with a mental illness.

Exactly my point, photos don't tell us much.

Being very productive with fun recordings and going out on the road again when you don't usually probably tells us all we need to know about how not depressed Brian was in 1967.

WTF...sounds just like Brian's speaking voice to the point where it not being him is kind of scary. And it being Blaine on the 'Waa waa ho waa' part blows my mind.

That would include the "duh doobly doo" part, right?

I've always been curious about this part.
The voice never sounded like any of the Beach Boys to me, so it's interesting to figure out that it's actually Hal.

From what I saw of the home movie in the American Band doc, Brian doesn't look happy on the motorcycle. He does look happy doing a somersault in the grass, though.

What do you think of his actions speaking louder than his momentary expressions?

Well, the bios I've read seem to say Brian took to his bed for a couple of weeks after Smile was cancelled, that Brian was not quite stable during the early Smiley Smile sessions and that he began to withdraw a bit production wise with Wild Honey, although I think he pretty much produced almost everything. Maybe not How She Boogalooed It.

What if you forget the bios, what do your ears on the sessions and the product and the record of his activity in the studio in particular tell us? To me the physical evidence shows me a guy who is in control of his work environment and having fun and being fun and taking huge creative risks and is as productive and competitive as he ever was [he just isn't competitive in his old way].

For sure, he was taking huge creative risks, and what came out was great. It's just too bad that some of the more elaborate tracks (Time to Get Alone by Redwood, Can't Wait Too Long, Cool Cool Water '67 version) were either prevented from coming out because of band politics or weren't finished.

Key to all this is knowing the real truth behind the "Produced by The Beach Boys" credit on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey. I have expressed the opinion on Steve Hoffman's site that those two albums were pretty much just produced by Brian, and the same goes for Friends.

Jimmy Lockert told me that Brian was THE producer of everything BB he was involved in through Friends. To me it sounds like it on the tapes also.  I understand there is an interview with Carl circa '67 where he says Brian was the producer of SS [I've not seen/heard it, I think Alan Boyd reported it].

My guess is the "Produced By The Beach Boys" was some sort of PR like ploy to bolster their new group owned record label or something.

And as I'm sure most here have read, at least according to the Badman book, the Wild Honey LP with its first track listing was supposed to have a Brian production credit.

If Brian was the sole producer he probably would have made/approved those credits.

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

+1.

Drugs aside, it seems mighty likely that Brian was not in an emotionally healthy headspace when he put this album together.

Whatever the true reason(s) behind it, I can't imagine it was a crediting change that was simply taken lightly without a care in the world by a happy Brian. It seems like Brian was also quietly (or passive-aggressively) making a statement of his own, letting go/relinquishing control on purpose.

No matter how much he'd have outwardly downplayed it, I'm sure it was a big deal to him inside, much like Mike's relinquishment of being the main lyricist (for a time) surely had an impact inside of him. These guys are/were human, and minimizing whatever emotional aspects were at play doesn't seem to be an accurate or nuanced take on things.

The "PR ploy" thing may have been *a* legit factor (or excuse for it to happen), but IMO surely doesn't reflect the entirety of the reasoning that went into a change (of self demotion) like that.

Why would Brian do that?

because he gave up and didn't care at that point...

Don't just take Badman's word for it ;D

(http://i351.photobucket.com/albums/q476/marcus1970/WildHoneytracklist.jpg) (http://s351.photobucket.com/user/marcus1970/media/WildHoneytracklist.jpg.html)

I'm not seeing what shows he gave up or didn't care.

well the simplicity of the album, how there was really no production and how he recorded it in such a short period of time, almost like he wanted to get it over with and released,,, just a thought of course I could be wrong though,,

So, that makes it seem as though the inclusion of those three songs changed the producer's credit. So, I suppose we can assume that Brian produced the bulk of it, while Carl and company probably produced "How She Boogalooed It", therefore changing the credit in the liner notes.

Session tapes from SS make it seem as if Brian was much more involved than the myth leads one to believe. However one feels about the album's contents, it was obviously an artistic decision,  otherwise Brian wouldn't have bothered rerecording anything .

Yeah, I don't buy that theory either. It's obvious he still cared a whole lot about "Heroes And Villains" as a single, and even though the single version might not be to some people's taste's, it was Brian's ultimate take on the song. So even if we only talk about that one song in relation to Smiley Smile, he sure cared a lot and worked VERY hard on it.

I agree. It seems to me there are as many studio days/hours devoted to SS as to PS and Brian is personally hands-on working much harder on SS in ways. The recordings are packed into a shorter beginning to end time period which tells me the shorter time span is just a function of less days between a similar number of sessions not rushing or short changing the process. He hand delivered H&V to a radio station.

Just from hearing the boots (in stereo!) there's much more sonic detail than may at first appear. Really, the album would've better received if it wasn't so muddy in its release.

My sessionography info might be outdated but if I go all the way back to July '65 to pick up a SJB session I count 27 sessions for PS from 7/65 through 4/66.

If you don't start counting sessions for SS until starting in May '67 after the cancellation announcement I count 27 sessions through July '67. If you count the April '67 sessions for Vegetables, with its non-SMiLE title and some of which ended up on SS, we are talking about 36 sessions. And we haven't even counted any proper SMiLE era sessions which also ended up on SS.

The bulk of PS happened from late Dec through mid April or about 15 weeks. Asher didn't start until mid January which would make it about 11 weeks.

If you start the bulk of SS as in mid May through mid July it is about 9 weeks. If you more properly [imo] start at early April with Vt it is 15 weeks.

The notion that SS was some sort of rush job is seeming like bollocksy.

That would be plausible to me too if the engineer involved in the production didn't say Brian was the Producer.

Smiley Smile is my favourite Beach Boys album.

If you are blinded by 'good' production, and are unable to listen past it's lofi sound, then yes, you may be disapointed. If you can appreciate music for the sake of music then SS is chock full of amazing structural ideas and harmonies. To me, this is Brian on top of his game. I've said it before, the SS Wind Chimes is the greatest original music ever put on tape by anyone, ever.

IMO of course........

Maybe not PR, but Brian set himself apart more and more from the group after retiring from the road. More than that, the other guys were excluded more and more from the process of creating new music, being actually reduced to vocalists with no more input than the hired session players. Brian of course always was the major creative force, but things had developed to an extreme. The production credit may have been a nod to the other guys to acknowledge that they're a group as opposed to Brian Wilson and those puppets.

Something like that but my guess is it was more about Brian and Capitol over the new Brothers label and not much between Brian and the Boys.

So we have to agree to disagree.

Agreed.

I was shocked to hear Jimmy Hilton's distinctive over the top cheerful voice on the sessions for. Beefheart's Lick My Decals Off album.  I immediately recognized it from the Dada sessions.