The Smiley Smile Message Board

Some new 1983 pics of Denny (taken and posted by a fan) are surfacing on the "Dennis Wilson and the beach boys" Facebook page.

Some of these are tough to look at, and they might make you feel emotional to see him rough like this. But it's ultimately very fortunate for us that they are being posted.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398005880336665.1073741876.108901685913754&type=1

Broome County Veteran’s Memorial Arena, Binghamton NY, June 15th - Mike wasn't at this show (or the next four) due to a strep throat.

Is that a second tattoo on his left arm?

For a mo' I assumed Barry Blakelee was Brian… blimey!

Me too.  ;D

Me three.

Me four  :lol

Me Five  :smokin

I don't have Facebook, would somebody so kind to post the pictures, please?

Here you go:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1601565_398005883669998_361314305_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1/1723004_398005960336657_865182730_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/61537_398006040336649_211239193_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1/1794608_398006120336641_1620335958_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1/1002304_398006190336634_1523041852_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1621772_398006320336621_812718031_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1779229_398006243669962_2103221323_n.jpg)

Yep. The guy really does look like Brian  :lol

Color me insane, but Dennis actually looks pretty good to me.

I always thought Dennis looked best without the beard.

OMG that big guy is a doppelganger for Brian during his 300+ lb days.  Unbelievable.

Thank you, Ovi! :)

It really does look as if Dennis could still have been saved at this point...

Here's one more Denny pic apparently from this show, which was wasn't attached in Ovi's post above (I couldn't get the pic to upload to this Smiley Smile site).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201708347336489&set=a.1107140244760.2017400.1414435703&type=1&theater

I agree. A lot of people say Dennis looked horrendous in '83, but I don't agree. He was by far still the best looking guy in the group, and I say that as a heterosexual male. Dennis was pretty much always good looking.

The Blakely guy was year late for 1983 Brian who was thin  due to Landy's kidnap and Hawai regimen, but he sure is a dead ringer for '82 Brian

Its Blakeslee....and he is still alive and kicking it seems. Ain't the human body a weird and wonderful creation?

Selfie!

I agree. A lot of 1983 Dennis pictures are tough to look at, but he looks pretty good and happy here. Maybe it's because Mike wasn't there.  ;)

And yes, if Brian had missed shows in 1981 or 1982, Barry Blakelee could have sat at the piano and people might have bought him as Brian.

These pictures are baffling to me -- because I lived 17 miles from Binghamton, N.Y. in 1983, was a big Beach Boys fan even then, and had no awareness of this show and did not attend it. 

Wait a minute...something else is fishy here.

That's fat Brian.  Brian had slimmed down by June '83.  This has to be '82.  (I am pretty sure it is not '81 because Brian wasn't quite that big then, and I also remember seeing them in Sept. '81 in Syracuse at the New York State Fair...so if they had been in Binghamton I think I would have gone)

EDIT:  Sorry, I missed the posts above...that's NOT Brian?  Holy crap.  You guys are right...scary resemblance.

Well, I guess it was '83 then.  Weird.

OP says it isn't Brian. It's someone named Blakeslee.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the look on Denny's face in that selfie pic makes me seriously sad.

I agree with you but the fact that he wasn't even in his 40s yet makes me sad  :'(.  If he was still alive today and looked like that, no doubt he would still be considered "the hot one"  :love.  his beard suited him well but not all the time, (sometimes I thought it was too thick) I also agree with the poster who said he was the best looking one without the beard, and I think for the most part the best bearded BB was Carl  ;D

His face looks swollen as hell and he looks around 50.

Its also been mentioned in the past that his teeth were in a bad way and he rarely smiled. These pictures seem to back that up. Real sad.

His face and upper lip are pretty swollen, but to me he still seems somewhat fit. I think the beard made him look older.

:lol I made the SAME mistake myself.

These pictures kind of remind me of the pictures of Gene Clark playing his last public shows at the Cinegrill in 1991.

His face looked puffy and tired from all the lifestyle choices but Dennis didn't look like some old homeless guy here. He actually looked like his real age.

Yeah, it's like Elvis.... Near the end he looked much fatter and worse off BECAUSE he was Elvis!

Same with Dennis. He was still a handsome as all hell guy, just not in quite the rock hard shape of his best years.... Happens to most of us, sadly. Though none of us are Dennis, so it's not so much noticed.

Is it just me, or does the general atmosphere of the pictures make it seem like the venue is a small club or bar?

It's not you; I took away a similar impression.  Maybe it's just us...

Had a look at some pictures of the place. Looks like a hockey and basketball stadium.

Especially the first picture. Why would there be a wall(that's what it looks like to me) right behind Dennis? Also in the first pic, on the left you can see a hand on the fret of a guitar. Note the very close proximity to Dennis. Band members usually aren't that close to each other, unless it's a small and cramped area. There are more pictures on that guys Facebook page that sure as hell look like they were from a small bar. You can see Ed Carter, Mike Meros and BIlly Hinsche. Maybe an after show jam somewhere? Dennis is the only actual Beach Boy in the pictures.

Edit: I just noticed that in one of the pictures Dennis is wearing a yellow shirt, but all of the other photos show him in a grey shirt. Hmm.

I'm guessing that the "Zanzibar" referred to in the FB post was/is a bar they repaired to after the gig.

Broome County Veterans Memorial Arena in 2011:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z8B9b2zbMw4/TZJr82N4zEI/AAAAAAAACuE/iFzna9btciI/s1600/266478571.jpg)

Seeing these pictures of Dennis is a real downer. He turned into a role model shouting "That's how ugly you will look if you drink alcohol & do the drugs!" If only he would've been much smarter, he had lived to his old age.

It's not about intelligence. Once addiction hits you, you're a virtual slave to it. You could be Einstein and still end up like Dennis, if you have a drinking or drug problem.

Well, he shouldn't have started drinking & drugging, in the 1st place. It's not that difficult of a task, hence my use of the word "smart".

True. Dennis made a few bad mistakes along the way. I don't condone any of it. But try piling up half a dozen demons and probably a good amount of physical pain(at least in his last year or so), and you may find it difficult to not self medicate in one way or another.

I agree that people are different & thus have differing ways of cheering themselves up. Nevertheless, he could've helped himself without going downhill. F.ex., by doing his best thing he's capable of, like making music, performing on stage, surfing, family stuff etc. He just shouldn't have to give up. Although I realize it's easier said than done, but still.

Such a sweeping generalisation: have you ever experienced addiction, personally or among family & friends ? I'm thinking not. If you have an addictive personality, it is a difficult task. I know - my own addictive personality manifests itself, in one form at least, as having to know as much as is humanly possible about any subject that really engages my interest and attention. That's why I'm here, why I've apparently attained such fan status as some claim I have and why the 10542 website exists. Can I just turn that off ? No. Should I have stopped back in 1975 ? Yes, but the fact is, I couldn't. This aspect of my addiction has only (only !) cost me untold thousands of pounds, most of the space in my house and the wrath of some oddly amusing posters across the 'net. The drinking... ah, that was another matter. Wasn't just the bucks.

As DM stated, it's nothing to do with intelligence. However, making sweeping - and crass - statements like yours would indicate a lack of both intelligence and compassion. BTW, in case you've not noticed, Dennis had a brother who was, possibly, a worse example: by your logic, Brian wasn't too smart either.

And neither are 99% of the rock-stars according to RangeRover, all of which "started drinking & drugging" at some point or another.

Great post, AGD.

I certainly do not have alcohol/drug/any other bad addiction. Regarding "smart" comment, I didn't mean Dennis (& Brian for that matter) are complete fools, as in they have little to no brains, I more leant towards "careless way of living", that he didn't think much before doing his actions. Why not turn that addictive personality into sth. good-willed (as you did), not self-destructive? There's no way I'd indicate Dennis & more so Brian are idiots, you misunderstood me (though maybe it's my fault). As for my own intelligence & compassion, maybe you're right about the former, but the latter... well, if I didn't sympathize anyone, I wouldn't even waste time on writing what I wrote 2 posts up.

The BB aside, I can also bore for England on the subject of:

Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid & the Wild bunch (the real people, not the movie)...
Pre-Victorian cricket...
Jack the Ripper...
Silent movies...
The novels of Arthur C. Clarke...

... but in deference to the nature of this forum, and also not wanting to alienate you any more than I usually do anyway, I'll stick with The Beach Boys, if that's OK by you.  ;D

You don't understand: my obsession with accurately documenting the history of Brian Wilson & The Beach Boys is only one aspect of my addictive personality, one which ran in tandem with the less laudable seriously excessive drinking and others (which I'd rather not detail here) even more damaging to my general wellbeing, physical and mental. You can't divert the flow from the destructive to the creative at the drop of a hat. You have an addictive personality... or you don't. That's possibly the only simple, black & white aspect of it. The degree can vary. I happen to have the BB bit bad: the drinking, etc., I "got over" when my doctor told me I had an excellent chance of leaving the building for good if I didn't stop. That was the only thing that worked, in that situation.

Right on, AGD. You sum up addiction perfectly. And RangeRover is just one of those people who oversimplifies drug/alcohol/anything addiction. She/he/whatever would be greeeat for something like that useless DARE program.

I think perhaps with rangerover language is getting in the way.

Drug addiction has nothing to do with intelligence. True.

But predisposed/addictive personality or not, perhaps a person who begins to dabble in drugs isn't being wise. I think maybe that is what she meant.

Taken at face value are these pictures really that sad? He's a couple of years older than me in these photos and looks in marginally better shape. He looks a little boozed but it's not as if he's passed out in a pool of his own vomit. Plus it's post show right so he would be sweaty and well oiled. I don't see what's so sad about them really other than we know he had serious addiction problems and that he'll be dead less than a year later. Sure those facts are sad but I see no evidence of them in these photos.

Great to see these intimate snaps though. Thanks for the link, OP.

Edit: Actually on rereading the thread I see most people agree that the photos do not show Dennis' deterioration so please ignore the above!

Hopefully I won't drag us into too much of a tangent here, but I always find it interesting to see what other passions fellow BB nuts have beyond the BBs themselves...

Andrew, real quickly, curious to know what you thought of the series of the TV show Whitechapel that dealt with the Jack the Ripper copycat (assuming you've seen it)? I recently watched it with family over the holdiay break, but know nothing whatsoever about Jack the Ripper. From your POV, and from Ripper fans' POV, was it well done?


Interesting interests by the way. Eclectic. My interests all tend to focus on musicians of various sorts. Oh, and Doctor Who.

At the risk of repeating the furore that ensued the last time I used this term, I prefer my Ripper straight. Watched Ripper Street for a bit, and while the period feel was excellent, the dialog and storylines disappointed. Don't get me started on From Hell... truly, there's not been a single TV/movie retelling of the events that's been even close to adequate.

FWIW, my favored - or more accurately, least-unlikely - suspect would be George Chapman, although I'm of a mind with respected Ripperologist Don Rumbelow when he stated in his first book (I paraphrase slightly):

"When the Day of Judgement dawns, when all unknown will be known, and when all Ripperologists as one ask Jack to step forward and state his name, I've a feeling we'll all be looking at each other and saying "WHO ?""

Do you still dabble in Cassidy and Longabaugh ol' pal?

This I did not know! I'm hoping this will be of interest...as I'm writing this before heading off to work, I'm in the exact township and area where the real "Sundance Kid" Harry Longabaugh was born and raised. I'm not more than a few hundred yards away from an area of land where he is rumored to have been later in his (short) life, and maybe a 5-7 minute drive away from his actual childhood home.

I'm telling information I'm sure everyone knows, but the film got one aspect wrong about his hometown area. A section of my township (I call it mine because it's where I pay my property taxes each year... ;D ) is called "Mont Clare", a name which has developed since the late 1800's from "Mt. Clair" to "Mont Clair" to "Montclair". It was originally called "Quincyville" until around the time of Sundance's birth, which is where some of the confusion may have come.

There is also a "Montclair" New Jersey, and in the film Sundance says he's from New Jersey. But it's actually "Mont Clare" Pennsylvania.

I doubt I still have this article...but maybe 15 or 20 years ago there was a series of articles in the local paper where historians had pinpointed one of the original Longabaugh family homesteads to what is now land occupied by the local middle and high school complex. That's the one a few hundred yards away from my place. There was a family connection with Sundance, and somewhere it was recorded or reported that he had come back to visit and stayed here at some point, I forget if they uncovered family letters from that time or if it was a relative who had confirmed it from the family's history...just can't remember the details.

Back to his childhood home. That was definitely in Mont Clare, they have the street address, and a family connection further told in the story was that a Longabaugh relative named Place married one of the Pennypacker girls, and Pennypacker is a known name in Pennsylvania because one of them went on to be governor of the state. Remember Katherine Ross' character is Etta Place, and Sundance used the name Harry Place as an alias. Direct connection to his birthplace.

If I can find any trace of those articles I'll forward them if interested. The film is one of my favorites, of all time, and finding out that there was a local connection to the real Sundance Kid was neat, I think for a lot of people in this area. What it also showed was the development of this area from the late 1800's to the 20th century, and all that happened in a relatively short period of time.

***I know I'm telling what I'm sure has been told often and is already known the historians and history buffs, but when I saw the name "Longabaugh" in a Dennis Wilson thread, I had to chime in as I happened to settle my own homestead where Sundance once lived.  :)

Not as much as I used to, but I did have a (very small) hand in debunking a photo alleged to show a whole host of western legends (including Butch & Sundance) gathered at a place in Montana called Hunters Hot Springs (http://mywebvault.wordpress.com/2010/12/26/livingston-montana-history-hunters-hot-spring/) in (allegedly) 1883.

(http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/MISC_WHITES/sanders-hot-springs-hunters.jpg)

As a real life crime buff as well as a Beach Boys fan, let's just say I've been obsessed with the Charles Manson case for several years now.

Don't think it has been recalled on this particular thread that the Wilson's were likely genetically predisposed to addiction.

Also, want to express appreciation to AGD for his candid remarks.

Andrew, I agree with everything you say here but one: The tendency to want to know everything and really everything about a certain subject is IMHO not an addiction. It can develop into one if you start to neglect your relationships, the things you do for a living, or your personal hygiene over that, and I can't imagine you did exactly that.

The thing is, I think our perspectives on Dennis are really messed up by his death/suicide. The fact is, you can be a tremendous drug addict and do horrible things to yourself, but if you're young and in shape (as Dennis was, even toward the end), you can rebound. Look at Brian, who was arguably worse off but ended up recovering more than anyone probably thought possible. He's now 70-plus for goodness' sake, so clearly the genes for longevity are in the family.

So if I read one more piece about Dennis "dying before he was dead" and so on -- that's all nonsense. He was alive until he wasn't. There were possibilities -- abundant possibilities -- until there weren't. And it makes us feel better, perhaps, to think that it was all preordained, and that Dennis was in a fatal spiral, etc., etc. But that's only true in retrospect.

No... but... all the interests I've listed have taken up way more of my spare time than is healthy. The BB are far and away the worst offenders, but if tramping around a burial ground trying to work out where an unmarked grave might be, or quartering Hollywood trying to locate the exact site of the Babylon set for Intolerance (demolished in 1919, 1920) isn't an addiction, I don't know what is.  ;D

Would argue (well, I would, wouldn't I ?): I've spoken with people who knew DW towards the end (some you'd know, some not) and they all agreed on one point, namely that from about 1982 on, they looked into his eyes and saw (to quote one exactly) "a dead man walking". By fall 1983, Dennis was alive, but not living, and he'd exhausted all the possibilities, or so he felt.

How do obsession and addiction relate to one another?

am I naive or am I the only one who sees Dennis' addictions and substances of choice as more or less symptoms of the real problems?

I wonder. Clearly Dennis was disturbed and self destructive in a way that neither of his brothers was. And that had everything to do with who he was, not what he ingested.

Exactly. I'm much the same. I kept away from drugs, etc because I knew I couldn't stop. Guys like Denny and Brian, they had personal problems and pain that I couldn't comprehend that led to their problems.

The original quote regarding Dennis being "dead" a couple of years before his body actually was deceased...  came from Barbara Wilson...it's in the Endless Harmony documentary. I'd never tell her that her perspective is nonsense. I've spoken to her about this in person and she saw the essence of him completely disappear prior to his actual death...and that's how she could best describe it.

You know, the more I read the new Beach Boys concert archive book, the more that I start to think that the early start of the downward spiral might have been when his marriage to Barbara ended.

What exactly were Dennis' "problems"? He had a dad who communicated best with his fists, I was also lucky enough to grow up with a dad who thought nothing of punching the sh*t out of his sons and that has given me very mixed feelings about my childhood. It hasn't however gave me a free pass to become a drug addict. OK so he was unlucky enough to get hooked on the vices of Rock & Roll, however he was given chance after chance to clear up his life and he threw it all away. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there are a lot of people out there who have been given less breaks in life than Dennis Wilson.

You can say the exact same for Brian you know. Except that he eventually pulled through

Well, one of the main points is: Do you enjoy your searches? If so it very likely is not an addiction. Example: Most smokers that I know want to stop and don't enjoy craving for cigarettes all the time. They are addicted. I do know a few people who enjoy smoking and have no problem to not smoke for days. The latter people probably have had luck with their genes, as the nicotine doesn't make them addicted. (As both my parents are nicotine addicts, the only thing that prevented me from becoming one is that I hate the feeling of smoke in my lungs. It has nothing to do with the fact that I'm really smart :wink)

Another indication whether your quest for knowledge is an addiction or not would be whether you could afford to spend the noney for the travels or if you had to make debts for it. Or if by doing so you hurt people that are important to you (which I think you already answered with "no").

I offer you this: I've bought records because of their BB connection that have literally had the store staff (who knew me) crying with laughter: Julio Iglesias, anyone ? ;D

And yes... I've spent money I really couldn't afford on the latest BB/solo/related release, irrespective of its musical merit, or on books, magazines, or just phone calls. It's The Beach Boys, see ? I'm a fan: it's what I do.

Hello, my name is Andrew Grayham Doe, and I'm a Beach Boys obsessive.   :old

Don't get me started on Billy Beldham: no, really, just... dont. Did I enjoy looking for his unmarked grave on a foul February day with the rain hissing down ? No... no, can't say I did, but as that annoying Frenchie said (kinda), it wasn't the finding, it was the act of searching. I felt a sense of mild, if damp, fulfillment.

Seriously for a moment, I deeply appreciate all the comments and support, both here and via PMs: stopping doing something that, however pleasant, you've been told by your family doctor will very likely see you off within a relatively short period of time if you continue doesn't require too many smarts, just the courage to look at the evidence and say "you're right". There's a fine, fine line between obsession and addiction, and there's no simple "solution".

Finally, it may be germane that my half-brother, from my father's first marriage, had a serious drinking problem, one which destroyed his marriage and comprehensively screwed up his life, until he saw what was happening and turned it around, eventually becoming something of a local big wheel in Alcoholics Anonymous. You may have heard of his sponsor, name of Clapton: plays a fair old guitar. Colin died in 2004, just shy of his 60th birthday, the original rough diamond. Bit of a tricky year for me, 2014: my father died 20 years ago, Colin ten years ago and my mother five. Were I numerologically inclined, I'd note the descending sequence and maybe think about setting my affairs in order. But, thankfully, I'm not.  ;D

A good thing you don't know your math - as the periods between deaths diminuate by half, the last death should have happened 2 1/2 years ago.

May you be with us for a long, long time, Andrew!

A few years ago, I did one of those "how long will you live ?" quizzes, based on health, lifestyle and such. Apparently I died when I was 37.  ;D

Well, I for one am glad to see and read that you've made a partial to full recovery in the meantime.

To paraphrase Micha, Long Live The Legendary AGD.

That just means you're dead before you're deceased. I'm expecting your body to be around til it's 100. 

Thats when your old-self of bad living died. :)

   Dennis doesn't look great here by any means, but I've seen people in similar straits looking far worse.

   OCD personality traits can definitely go hand in hand with use of substances. The obsessive element can lead to both positive and negative pursuits. 

   

Reminds me of a 1950s TV clip where Johnny Cash introduces his guitarist Luther Perkins to the audience with the words, "We haven't had the heart to tell him yet, but he's been dead for two years now." :)

Not only harsh but also ignorant. Cheers, mate.

I hereby grant you a free pass to become a drug addict. :(

Jon - I've always wondered which relationship had more of an effect on Dennis's personal and professional life, for better or for worse...Barbara's or Karen's? Sure, a good portion of POB was influenced by his relationship with Karen, but Dennis was really coming into his own with lots of emotional tunes while he was still with Barbara (Barbara, Forever, Cuddle Up, WIBNTLA, etc).
What are your thoughts on this?

Ignorant of what exactly? He wasn't mentally ill like Brian, he wasn't locked in his room afraid to wash because he thought the taps were full of acid, he wasn't hearing his dead fathers voice in his head telling him he was going to die. The fact is Dennis had full control of his mental facilities and was in charge of every decision he chose to make. He and he alone chose to keep pumping the booze and drugs into his system rather than get clean and be around to watch his kids grow up. Stop making excuses for the guy just because he wrote some great music, mate.

Give me proof of that before I condemn Dennis. I assume you knew him personally very well to make that statement?

Show me proof where he showed signs of obvious mental disorders before he started hitting the booze too much. Was Dennis suffering breakdown after breakdown? Was he committed to mental hospitals ever?

"I got abused and I'm not a rockstar, why is this guy more depressed than me?"

Mental health and addiction aren't things that people only succumb to because their problems are bigger than yours. Everybody's different and you have no idea what else Dennis might have felt or been going through in his life. Just because he didn't go to a mental hospital didn't mean he wasn't suffering. It doesn't excuse what he did but it provides some background. You generalize and use such iron-clad statements in your descriptions of Dennis. The man had demons, some of which we'll never know about (nor should we.)

People talk about the guy as if he went through life with this huge fucking crucifix strapped to his back. 

Actually he did have a foundation of emotional issues that were very similar to Brian's and were generated by many of the same things. Dennis' earliest memory was of being punched and thrown across the room by his dad, so he was probably 3 or 4 years old when that memory imprinted. He lived in fear...like Brian. Unlike Brian he challenged the fear with a tough exterior. But he was also prone to crying fits. I've had family members tell me DW would wake up in a cold sweat in a panic thinking his dad was going to kill him. He handled his mental issues differently than Brian, more of a confrontational type, take it head on kind of a guy...but that made him often violent and edgy, even paranoid at times. There was other baggage. He had a stuttering problem when he was young. He had giant inadequacy issues that never went away. Again mostly due to his father. He was an outsider within his own family. He was pre-disposed to addiction, alcoholism. That started earlier than most people know. He may have had some motor damage from a narcotic overdose and/or a concussion when he was a young teen. Part of how he masked his problems was to get buzzed on whatever...cigarettes, booze, pills, and on and on....but that became an ever increasing hole that got harder and harder to climb out of. No he didn't lock himself in a room and sleep and eat all day. He put on the persona of cool, and tough, and flippant...but inside he was being eaten alive just like his brother. And he did have his dead father's voice in his ear pretty much 24/7.

I'm sure some people will look at the above comments as an apologist attempt. But these things are part of Dennis' makeup. There was another side...sometimes he was sober, and happy, and in control of his demons...but that was always fleeting. the dark side always cycled back around. very similar to brian, who had periods of "normalcy"...people use those as examples that Brian must  be exaggerating or faking his problems. Not the case. Mental illness is not a constant flow...it pulsates, and ebbs, and when you least expect it it comes crashing down on you and kicks your ass. It wears you down. Both guys were sick, probably from nearly the same thing, but it lived in them in different ways.

I don't dispute what you have written Jon but I think there is a rather wide mark between personality problems and full blown mental illness. Dennis had a shitty childhood but was also lucky enough to have a genius for a brother who made music that in time whisked him far away from the root cause and enabled him to live the kind of life most people only get to dream about. Most old school music stars had drug/drink problems in the 70's and 80's; Dennis was hardly unique in that respect - in fact it's probably quicker to list rock stars of that era who didn't succumb to addiction of some sort. Do they all blame it on some unresolved childhood trauma or do most of them just admit that they were too stupid/wasted to notice when the party was over? Dennis needed to take a good look in the mirror, admit that he was the problem and deal with it or reach out to those that could help him. He did neither and to constantly paint him as some kind of martyr I find is rather grandiose and a disservice to people that have made the effort to overcome obstacles in their lives.

IMHO... I truly, sincerely applaud those who have gone through hellish childhoods and have come out on top in the end. People who have done so deserve to be lauded and respected for triumphing over adversity. Absolutely. But is it really necessary to put down others (who also had hellish childhoods, and unfortunately later succumbed to demons) in order to make those who have triumphed feel better about what they themselves have achieved? Yes, sadly, Dennis did squander significant amount of good fortune that he came across in his life. But it’s not as simple as just viewing his eventual plight in solely that way.

I think it’s important to have sincere empathy and a deep understanding of the fact that neither you, I or anyone else will ever know the true stories of what other people (like Dennis, and countless others who were victims of abuse) experienced in their lives which could effect them in different ways. No matter how much research or stories we can hear about his life, only Dennis knew the true story. Everyone's story is unique. The eventual negative effects of abuse can differ from person to person, and some people aren’t able to pick up the pieces and overcome the resulting trauma in their lifetimes.

A person like Dennis’ emotional support system (or lack thereof) from family, friends, etc, as it pertained to the specific abuse (and acknowledgement of his feelings, or lack thereof) is an important factor to consider. Some people are more sensitive, scar deeply on an emotional level more easier than others, and these factors are related to both environment and their own predetermined chemical makeup of their brains. Ultimately, I don’t think anyone should be putting Dennis down by judgmentally proclaiming “He should’ve done this” to have cleaned up… it’s far more complicated (in ways that could only be understood by Dennis himself) than something which can be summed up in a sweeping statement about what he woulda/shoulda/coulda done.

I think it bears stating that drinking heavy amounts of alcohol does actually rewire the brain...which is why it's considered an illness, both medically and psychologically. To whitewash such addiction is asinine. And sometimes it's not as simple as taking "a good look in the mirror". If Dennis had the psychological power to overcome his addiction, he would probably be with us today. But, obviously, that didn't happen.

Even as completely addicted to alcohol as Dennis was at the end, I think he could have been detoxed under proper medical supervision. I also think he would have rebounded physically. Seeing some episodes of "Intervention" on TV, it amazes me how quickly you can improve physically once you get clean.

The key with Dennis would have been staying clean. I think the only way he could have stayed clean was to deal with his issues with Murry and any others causing his "empty" feeling inside through therapy. He was self-medicating with booze and drugs. He never actually dealt with the cause.

Dennis was reconciling with Murry when Murry died. Maybe if Murry had lived a little longer and Dennis had been able to get to a better place with Murry, then Dennis could have put his biggest demon behind him. But his skipping Murry's funeral showed that he never made his peace, and it affected him the rest of his life.

I wonder what made him want to start drinking again and when because I read (somewhere around 1965/66) that he said he can't afford to drink cuz he had too many problems already.  I also heard an interview when they were in Japan back in '66 and he said "I think it's the kids that are the troublemakers, the ones that drink and carry on that make it bad for everybody."  :-\

I suspect the truth behind these type of quotes from the mid-60s. There is a quote from Brian during that era where he says something like "Drinking isn't cool and isn't fun" yet he had been known to sneak beers at the drive-ins during his youth (though the only drugs you hear about Brian doing in the mid-60s are marijuana and LSD). Could someone more knowledgeable comment on Brian's and Dennis's drinking habits during the mid 60s?

At first I thought "that date has to be wrong, Brian was thin in 1983"! And agreed, Dennis looks pretty good here, although in '83 I'd say Carl looked the best of the group.

Absolutely. Yes.



Ever heard of "presumption of innocence"? I hope you don't work as a judge or a teacher. You'd make a good executioner though. I'm not happy that you had a very tough childhood, quite the contrary, as it seems to have made you bitter and cope with it by looking down at people who you rate as inferior to you in terms of moral or will-power. That seems to me the "huge fucking crucifix strapped to your back". You need to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are in a position to judge someone you don't know more about than his public image. Didn't someone who is pretty well respected say don't condemn so you don't get condemned yourself or something like that?

I need to remember I have to look at the mirror some time today and think about how I can improve on my own faults.

FWIW, I had the happiest of childhoods: only child from father's second marriage, loving (if slightly older) parents who instilled in me a huge love of books and nature as well as good manners*, due respect for my elders and authority and a general sense of my own self-worth. Neither of them drank although the both smoked like chimneys (which is why I never have). I was never beaten or abused in any way whatsoever and, if not strictly speaking spoilt, then certainly indulged. Then in my late teens, I managed to go spectacularly off the rails and dove head-first into the social scene of my hometown, with the results as posted below. It's much more complex than "shitty childhood = addict". Nature, not nurture, to some extent. I loved my folks, and hated the pain and shame I brought them... but I couldn't stop, whatever they - or anyone else - said, at least until the doctor pointed out I was headed for the exit door on the high-speed Handbasket Express. I'd like to think that in later days, they were proud of me.

Mind, they never did get me to eat liver or anything green that wasn't lettuce.  ;D

[* no, really...]

I have faults Micha, the same as the next guy and freely admit it. Nowhere am I looking down on anybody, but I think it is fair enough to ask does personal responsibility and accountability factor into the equation anywhere here? There is just zero hard evidence that Dennis' drink/drug problems materialised because of father issues and to automatically give him a free pass because of them is a cop out to me.

Maybe stop worrying so much about how people remember a man who died 30 years ago.

I agree with Andrew.  A good childhood doesn't mean you won't go off the rails or vice versa!  Dennis wasn't the first or last rock star to die young.  They all had differing childhoods I would imagine.  When he was here he made a big impact and left a wonderful legacy, but unfortunately couldn't turn it around at the end.

Very haunting pics...

Man that guy is big!

Hey Andrew,
Not to veer off topic, but it's been quite a while since I've heard OR seen anything on Jack The Ripper, so I'm wondering if anything new has surfaced in regards to who he might have been.

To everyone else: Regarding Dennis, he doesn't look as bad as I expected. I looked worse than that at the tail end of my drinking/drug taking days, and I rebounded and ended up looking/feeling healthier and a bit younger. I wish that could have happened for Dennis.

Let's say you did a pretty good job of hiding that in your previous posts about Dennis.



The fact that one has responsibility about what one does in his/her life doesn't mean I can't have some compassion with someone who failed so in such a way that led to his own death. I have very little compassion with, say, Manson or Hitler, but a lot with Dennis.



I wonder why you're bringing up this "free pass" thing all the time. If there was something like a "free pass to become a drug addict", who would decide what granted a "free pass"? Fact is, Dennis' problems did materialise and neither you or me know the full story. But I sincerely doubt that someone with a clear mind would say, "Hey, I got an idea! I'll drink and drug myself to death!"

I am talking about people's attitudes to his addiction after his death and how easily some seem to excuse it. As you well know. The language barrier between us isn't that dense. BTW feel free not to reply because frankly there are more pressing issues in my life at present then why Dennis Wilson became an addict. I was stupid to try discuss this site's sacred cow in anything other than a flattering manner, no matter what aspect of his life we were referencing. I'm done with this conversation.

I actually never heard of this "DARE program", it's obviously not music-related so I'm not going to check. On your 2nd sentence, didn't Mr. Doe also oversimplify the addiction in that above post you quoted by saying you have an addictive personality or you don't? It can't be like that, most people I know are addictive in 1 thing & aren't in another, as well as they've got good side & evil side, from which sth. wins depending on one's strong will. Dennis, alas, didn't have enough of it.
Btw, it felt weird to be called "whatever". For a mo' I thought I'm a kids' doll. [or RoboCop/Pinocchio/stuffed animal/insert any similar unlively subject]

Why you keep mentioning this word "intelligence", I used its stylistically differing synonym "smart". But anyway, you're right, that's exactly what I's getting at.

I don't think anyone here gives Dennis a free pass. He made choices and died young. Ain't life a bitch?

I'd say thre's some free passing about those times when Dennis physically assaulted Mike.

Gee, That's a relief.

Don Rumbelow has a theory that it might have been the guy who ran the doss house where Eddowes hung out before she was killed, but as he died shortly thereafter, DR admits you have to exclude Mary Kelly from the canon. My money's still on Chapman, but as previously stated, he can best be described as the "least-unlikely" suspect. My very best guess is... we'll never know.

Nah, I'm sad that he took the wrong conclusion from the conversation. I didn't manage to make him comprehend that having compassion with a drug addict who destroyed himself does not equal to flatter the person or welcome his addiction.

LOL!  There's irony in them thar posts.  We accuse a poster of being too harsh when he/she offers an honest opinion about one of our heroes.  And in the next instant we post our own opinion of the other poster – an opinion that's ten times more harsh than the opinion we considered so outrageously offensive.

Can't we all drop our holier than thous and just try to get along?

That's not what I did. Beard claimed that Dennis took his decision to ruin himself with a totally clear mind and clear sense of judgement and thus has no "excuse" for having done so. My point was that he doesn't know about Dennis' state of mind at the time. I agree with him that Dennis showed little responsibility for his life. But that isn't enough for me to condemn Dennis.

Andrew, had you heard about this show:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/butch/

edit: this was supposed to be linked to this previous post: 


The Legendary AGD

Not as much as I used to, but I did have a (very small) hand in debunking a photo alleged to show a whole host of western legends (including Butch & Sundance) gathered at a place in Montana called Hunters Hot Springs in (allegedly) 1883.

also the likes of Brian and Dennis,

have had to live their pain/torment in the lime light!

me, being a Brian Wilson fan, believes, he may be the only 'rock star' that doesn't behave like one!

Dennis and Brian, and Carl too I guess, have had to deal with everything publicly....

its only these days, Brian won't comment or express to much about things......

where as Dennis, was always positive in the 'media' sense......

I still love the bit in 'American band'.... where he says 'some folks are addicted to achohol or drugs..... I'm addicted

to seeing that person and making them smile'........

these guys have had a hard time dealing with the 'sh*t' in their lives, but also being 'professional'....

give em a break!   Mike too!

RickB