The Smiley Smile Message Board

What songs are credited, or co-credited to Brian, but, in reality, are the work of others?

Some examples:
Diamond Head (reportedly written by the session musicians, Brian receiving credit for his role in the production)
We're Together Again (the credit was recently revised to just Ron Wilson, originally being co-credited to Brian)
Think About The Days (Joe Thomas allegedly wrote this)

 
What more is there?

  Hopefully "Cassius Love vs Sonny Wilson." Let's give Mike 100% on that one.  ;D

  Brian's involvement with "Deirdre" was minimal.

  The credit for "Santa Ana Winds" reads Brian Wilson-Al Jardine. Isn't it more or less Al's song?

I recall hearing an early version of "Sweet Mountain" that David Sandler wrote and recorded. The finished Spring version isn't much different.

Also, I'm very skeptical about Brian's contribution to "That's Why God Made The Radio".

Any involvement by Brian, that causes others that are also credited  to want to add Brian to the credits, Is good enough for me. I mean, who's to say he really didn't have a hand in any of the songs mentioned, so far or in the future?

Where did you hear that?

Joe Thomas told ESQ Editor that Brian told Joe to play a minor chord progression, Joe started fiddling around and did the descending bass line for several hours - Brian made some key change suggestions, then one day, all of sudden Brian came up with the opening line.

As per ESQ Issue 97, page 16

That would be a co-write

Oh, Agreed!  Probably should have mentioned that in my post  :banana

8)

I got a few that might be question marks.

First, there is "Belles of Paris". I'm pretty sure he does not have a credit for "Bells of Christmas", yet he's credited for "Paris". Which I guess would mean he wrote lyrics for it? But I gotta say, those lyrics are pretty un-Brian, and very, very Mike at his most pandering. But who knows?

I guess one could also say "Soul Searchin'" is another one that's up in the air. I know Andy Paley thinks that it's mostly his or whatever. Anybody any more detailed info on this one? I got nothing else on it off the top of my head.

I guess I could add would be "California Calling" to the list too. I thought I'd heard that it was really an Al composition, but I might be totally wrong. Anybody know on this one? I know most will disagree with me, but whoever did it, I thought it was one of the closest songs since the '60s to really catch the group's "surf sound".

"Let It Shine" is also one that some point out? Is it true that Jeff Lynne brought the song in, but that Brian added the "let it shine, oh let it shine" part? I suppose even if that's how it happened, that still deserves a writers credit, since that's the chorus.


"Diamond Head" is a tough one. I guess it depends where the chord progression came from and if the whole thing just grew out of a jam and who was involved.

"We're Together Again" is even more of a pain. I'm pretty sure in my copy of Classics selected by Brian Wilson the composer is listed as "Wilson". Which Wilson you ask? Shoot if I know. And then I'm pretty sure on the latest release featuring "We're Together Again", Made In California, it's credited to "Brian Wilson - Ron Wilson", so I guess it was a co-write overall.

When I checked with the publishers last Millennium, the sole composer listed for "We're Together Again" was Wilson. Ron Wilson.

That's fine and dandy. But still Capitol/Brother/whoever have it in the MIC as both Brian and Ron.

Take it up with them - just laying some info from a documented source for your benefit.  ;D

Re: the thread title... well, "Surfin' USA", of course.

I wonder if there's a Ron Wilson demo. I'd like to hear how Brian added to it. I suspect the arrangement may be all with this song and I imagine that's down to BW.

Demo, schememo, I'd settle for knowing exactly who this Ron Wilson is. Currently we know who he isn't... and that's about all.

Al has said that he can't remember Brian having anything to do with California Calling and that Brian had very little to do with At My Window.

He said that as Brian had contributed so much to the band, sometimes he would give him credits simply down to that.

From what Scott Bennett has said, Brian probably had very little to do with Wrong Notes in Heaven.

I'm guessing the "Shortenin' Bread" riff.  ;D

Back in the day, Al said that when he came up with "California Calling", he "borrowed" a melody of Brian's from a couple of years prior, and therefore gave him a co-credit. Scott Bennett has said Brian once told him "There's no wrong notes in Heaven, Scott", which would be reason for giving him a co-credit on that...but I think he also said he left sheet music or a lyric sheet on Brian's piano as a way of urging him to finish the song or at least provide additional input...which he eventually did. Maybe someone can find the exact quote on that...

It really wouldn't.  :)

Thank God Brian doesn't have a credit on California Calling!

Except that he does.

I agree. If that were the case there would be a few "Lennon/McCartney/Starkey" credits in the Beatles catalog.

Well, except for the fact that Lennon and McCartney credited all their tunes to both of them, regardless of how much the other contributed.

Ringo has a better case for cowriting credit on "Eight Days a Week" "A Hard Day's Night" and "Tomorrow Never Knows" than Lennon does for "Yesterday" or McCartney does for "Strawberry Fields Forever." "The Ballad of John and Yoko."

The point is, it's up to the songwriters to decide how credit should be apportioned. Contribution of a title or concept can merit it for some people, and not for others. With Brian Wilson, there are definitely some honorary credits in the catalog -- "Deidre" perhaps most infamously. But there are others where the accounts are conflicting. "Soul Searchin," for example, was claimed entirely by Andy. But Brian has recounted being so excited by the song that he flew to London to work on it with AP. If I had to guess, I'd say Brian perhaps added some lyrics (the first verse of the song is nearly as inspired as "My friend Bob / He has a job."

As for Think About the Days, the account was straightforward. Brian asked Joe to play a chord progression, Joe played something off the top of his head, and Brian sang a melody line over that.

Edit: Changed to provide some other examples after Howie's excellent post below.

I always wondered about At My Window.. I'd be very surprised if Brian had very little to do with it. The song is very lush and produced very well, and the lyrics are very nice too. It'd be unusual for a non-Wilson to write such a nice song like this during this period, but then again Al did come up with some really good stuff around this time.

 Seems like Sunflower might be an album where Brian had much less to do with than it really seems like. He did sing a lot, write a lot of material during the period (which most of it was unreleased at the time), but who knows what he actually came up with on the album besides "This Whole World", "Add Some Music", and I suppose "Our Sweet Love". Even "Cool Cool Water".. Do we even know any info that Brian produced or coproduced that 3rd portion of that song? I think I read that Stephen Desper did quite a bit on it like playing the moog part for example.

Wirestone -- Ringo actually had nothing to do with title of "Eight Days A Week" -- it was supplied by a driver hired to transport McCartney out to Weybridge one afternoon.

McCartney definitely earned his co-write on "Tomorrow Never Knows" having supplied and arranged the tape loops that serve as the second "lead instrument" of the song -- an "instrumental" version of that song would prove to be nearly all McCartney "music."

Regarding "Strawberry Fields..." that intro was written by McCartney and, that entire end section (acoustic guitar and mellotron) is his musically. Lennon literally only composed the song's top melody (e.g. the demo version -- which shows what McCartney and Martin (via McCartney) brought to the relatively simple tune.)

I'm willing to bet Brian's contribution was:

"La mwayno....eh vehyoo.....supozay...ah ma foo NET!"

I recommend you watch the documentary The First US Visit, particularly the scene in the hotel room. You'll change your mind about that REAL fast.

My point is that Paul clearly wrote a bunch of Beatles stuff without real contributions from John, and vice versa. (As for "Eight Days a Week," you could substitute "A Hard Day's Night," I suppose.) But we don't question the credit, because that's what they agreed to.

it was "written" by Al Vescovo, the steel guitarist. the idea to create the song (basically on the spot, according to Al) was Brian's along with all of the accompanying sound effects.

I've watched the DVD many times, and although that mouth keyboard piece sure does sound similar, it's not the same -- nor is it a particularly original run he's playing.
The bottom line is that it's highly doubtful McCartney heard that, socked it away to embellish/finish exactly three years later -- and/or had even saw that footage in the interim.

The intro is just McCartney playing the chords John had written on a mellotron. How does that credit him as writing the intro?

No, it's not.

It's not? Oh well that's me sorted then... and yet.... the intro is played again over the first verse... written by Lennon.

Someone tell George Martin because he seems to have stolen the intro Paul supposedly wrote, arranged it for horns, and used it as the backing track to the second verse.

Paul may have had a hand in arranging SFF. But let's not give him credit where he doesn't deserve it eh?

Brian didn't write TWGMTR. I remember reading an archived late 90s website article in which Joe Thomas said he "wrote a song for the Beach Boys called That's Why God Made The Radio."

1) The introduction to "Strawberry Fields Forever" is played on the mellotron.

2) John Lennon did not write the mellotron introduction to "Strawberry Fields Forever."

3) Paul McCartney wrote the mellotron introduction to "Strawberry Fields Forever."

This argument could go around forever (possibly even STRAWBERRY FIELDS forever).

But the facts are the facts and as much as you obviously want it to be written by John Lennon (for some reason), that piece of music -- which serves as the song's distinctive and legendary introduction -- was written by John Lennon's partner (as was the intro to "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds," "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite," "Sexy Sadie," and "Come Together," among others.)

Good thing those guys chose each other as partners.

You are right in that this will likely just go in circles... but to borrow the frame you used in your preceding post:

1) Lennon wrote the chords for Strawberry Fields.
2) McCartney arranged those same chords (Lennon had already written) as an intro.
3) It was likely McCartney's idea to use those chords as the intro and indeed it was largely McCartney and Martin who arranged and produced the entire recording... much to Lennon's chagrin and in retrospect his great regret.

If you want to accept that as a "writing" credit, so be it. It isn't. But that's ok. I suppose that means since George Martin arranged the strings for Eleanor Rigby.. or as you would put it: George Martin wrote the music for the strings to play in Eleanor Rigby, that means he should also get writing credit.

In the end, I think the discrepancy between our two points of view must lie in a disagreement over vocabulary. But I agree, those guys both won one of the greatest lotteries in human history when they found one another.

I know SQUAT about tMcCartney / Lennon song writing and their credits; but what I hope I'm getting from your last paragraph, is the same as has been( I think)  mentioned previously; and that is , They ( John Lennon? Paul McCartney) chose to credit their compositions to both of them, irrespective of who wrote which part/ any part at all.  Which brings it back to a simple matter of the songwriter(s) being the final judge on who should get the writinig credit.

I believe it was Millas who was posting something along those lines on a message board. And I don't think that anyone here has heard that late 90s version of the tune -- so it's impossible to say whether Brian added something to it or not for the 2012 release. I understand why folks would be skeptical, but we just don't know for a fact. I'd say "strongly suspect."

Again, definitely a co-write according to Joe Thomas in ESQ 97.  The story goes;
- Brian came up with the title over dinner with Millas, Peternik, Thomas and a DJ called Steve Dahl;When asked what he could hear (in his head) Brian described a '50s beat (like "Silhouettes on the Shade") with lots of modulations.

- Millas, Peternik, Thomas and Brian got together to work on it - Brian came up with the "Tune it in our latest star" bit. Millas and Peternik took it away and cooked up the demo, which JT said is quite different from the 2012 version to which Brian added parts and changed things around

- Brian always intended for it to be used on a BB album (apparently was one planned but didn't happen around this period '97/'98)

George Martin should've received credit on a TON of that stuff (composing the solos on "A Hard Day's Night," "Anytime At All," and "In My Life" in particular) and so should George Harrison  (e.g. "All My Loving" among many others.)

Appropriately, Brian is NOT credited for "Kokomo," because he did not write any of it. But in case there is any doubt, Mike Love makes sure that everyone knows Brian had nothing to do with the song. Brian is equally thrilled to confirm those claims.

One thing that has always bothered me....

Brian didn't really title the song. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read an account/interview in 2012 describing a dinner after a baseball game. Brian and a few friends were having dinner after a baseball game, a stormy weather forecast came over the radio, and Brian utters, "That's why God made the radio..." After the guys eventually proceed to a studio, one of them says/thinks that Brian's utterance would make a good song/title, and work on the song proceeds.

That's a lot different than Brian in the studio, noodling around or trying to come up with ideas for songs, and he - CREATIVELY and INTENTIONALLY - comes up with a line/title like that. It's almost like Brian could be accompanied by a couple of friends, and everything he says could be noted or written down and eventually used as a song title. Brian walks outside the restaurant and exclaims, "Hey it's a full moon. It looks like the man in the moon is smiling...". Hey, that's brilliant, Brian. Let's write a song called, "The Man In The Moon Is Smiling Tonight". Brian gets in the car and asks the driver to turn the heat off, "Hey, it's hot here in the back seat...". That's genius Brian, let's write a car song about a guy and a girl in the back seat of a car and we'll call it, "In The Heat Of The Back Seat".

Actually, in some footage I've seen through the years, Brian actually appears disappointed that he wasn't involved with "Kokomo". At least it seemed that way to me...

I've read an article in which Brian's people told a reporter that Brian would never like to discuss the song ever, under any circumstances.

That's Brian's people, not Brian. Brian's people also said to never ask questions about Gene Landy, whom Brian had previously brought up in interviews in a positive way. Brian has said many times over the years that he wishes he had been invited to sing on "Kokomo." There's also some interview footage I've seen of him singing bits of the song. The song was not written by Mike alone, but co-written by John Phillips, who was a friend of Brian's. No doubt that Brian liked the song at least a little bit and more likely, he just wanted to be featured on a hit record.

Which raises an interesting question. When people look at songwriting credits nowadays they often scoff at it because they credit so many people; whereas back in the good ole days the credits were limited to the barest essentials. Is the criteria for giving credit different now than it used to be, rather than a lack of talent by an artist?

Did I make sense?  :lol

Probably it's anyone involved wanting a cut of the money.

Or credited... ;)

I recall a TV appearance The Beach Boys made during the Stars & Stripes period; it was on an evening talk/variety show on the Country Music Channel or whatever it was called. And, eventually the talk turned to "Kokomo". The studio audience began to applaud and Brian - yes, Brian - points to Mike Love and yells out, "There's the man", obviously giving credit to Mike. It was kinda nice, he didn't have to do it, and, obviously he wasn't shying away from the subject.

Well, as far as Sunflower, we know for a fact Brian wrote "This Whole World", "Add Some Music", "Our Sweet Love" and "Cool, Cool Water". As far as what he did with them is a different story. I guess we could say he pretty much saw "This Whole World" and "Add Some Music" through to their completion. For "Our Sweet Love", I'm pretty sure it's well known 'round these parts that he started it, and abandoned after he had the track cut, along with the fade, which one can listen to right here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0klIuAG5Gs/)! After that apparently Al and Carl took it upon themselves to finish it, which would explain the credit to all three. We also know that "Cool, Cool Water" was originally started as a recording in 1967, and one could say that if you wanna trace it's roots you could say it's composition started in 1966 with with what was titled "Da Da" on the SMiLE box set. However, it is obvioius that Brian was involved at least near the completion of the song as he shares the lead with Mike on the last part of the song.

I suppose the only real question mark is "All I Wanna Do". I've heard some say it was mostly a Mike composition with Brian just finding the chords behind Mike's melody. But even that would still be considered worthy of a writer's credit right? Who knows if that's the way it happened anyways.

But regardless, I think my former belief that there were seven Brian Wilson songs on Sunflower isn't quite true, as "Diedre" is really Bruce's and "At My Window" is really Al's (or to be more honest perhaps Will Holt, who composed "Raspberries, Strawberries").

The ESQ thing has Brian et al hanging out in the restaurant after the baseball game (Brice, an Italian restaurant), but no mention of the storm forecast. It would be interesting to read the other one at some stage, there could well be a few variations depending who's telling (was it Al?  :lol)

Joe T's account establishes Brian at Brice came up with the idea (Joe quotes Brian as saying "We really gotta come up with a song for The Beach Boys that talks about the radio.  Kind of like "That's Why God Made The Radio"), Joe put his fork down and wrote down the title, then Brian explained the musical tone he wanted; when later noodling about on the piano Brian came up with the first line; then 15 or so years later restructured the demo Millas/Peterik had cooked up and added his own bits - which qualifies for a co-write credit, I'd say.

Actually, it is different, which is why so many people are credited for  writing songs these days.  A lot of writing credits are suspect, to say the least. Hell, Britney Spears actually wrote a great deal more music on her past few albums that she didn't get credit on due to the nature of her conservatorship (which was amended recently). These days, many credits are given for things which in the past would be put down as 'arranging', which is also why you don't see the latter credited much anymore on albums.

Lets go to Heaven in my car.. I read an article were Bruce offered to BUY the title he loved it so much.. Now whats this rumor I heard along time ago about that line in a Dennis Wilson Song..??  Cant remember..

Kokomo is really a John Phillips song. Mike added the "Aruba, Jamaica..." line and Melcher probably helped flesh it out.

Thanks for the info. I totally forgot about that instrumental with Brian backing vocal version of "Our Sweet Love". That's a beautiful version, Brian's vocals are nice and clear.

Anyway it is fascinating to think about his contributions on Sunflower because I always took the credits to be as accurate to who wrote the song, and I assumed if Brian's name was first, he had mostly had something to do with it. As this thread proves, that's not always true.

I still wonder a lot about those 2 songs myself. Never even knew Mike had so much to do with "All I Wanna Do" until reading about that here recently. I've never heard the original "Raspberries, Strawberries" before though. Does the "At My Window" vocal melody sound anything like it? If not, I wonder who came up with the melody, because I find it to be a really nice one, one of my favorites.

I'm sure (like someone else here said, can't remember who), Brian most likely only just came up with the stupid French part and that's it.   :lol

... or maybe he was just making sure they knew he had nothing to do with it.  ;D


Judge for yourself:

Raspberries, Strawberries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD3CqdKo35s)

Might find this amusing too:

The Wanderer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1poFkCG2NE)

Al Jardine is to folk music what Led Zeppelin is to the blues. ;D

Truly.

...and both Al and Zep do a bang-up job at it. I mean, Zep made me dig deeper into blues, and thanks to Al my appreciation of US folk music has deepened considerably.

And hey, let's not forget I found Leadbelly through Nirvana.

No rumor at all. "Dreamer." About 1:42 into the song on the 2008 reissue of Pacific Ocean Blue: "...they couldn't get to heaven in their car."

Also Al's "California energy blues" has some elements from another Kingston Trio song. And IIRC same goes for "Lookin' at tomorrow". Can't remember which songs though. But of course in folk music it is not uncommon to do this.

 ::)  :-D

Lookin At Tomorrow is "The Wanderer" that AGD posted above.

Huh?

The french part of the song in "At My Window."

(aka "Le moineau est venu se pose à ma fenêtre.")

He didn't write the tag to Sunshine (though it's credited to both Joe and Brian, I still felt ripped off when I found out about that).

Then again, all throughout Brian's career he has gotten musical input/ideas from his collaborators, so it really shouldn't bother me that much.

Here's Macca talking about the intro. Seems to be saying he came up with it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YK0Ivn-jXM0

In the same sense that George wrote <place song title here>'s guitar solo. Yes.

How did we get on this anyway? Both John and Paul's names are on the ding-dang song!  :lol

Ah, thanks. I couldn't listen when I posted my message 'cause I was in the university.


And I remembered the other song. "M.T.A." :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP1bvY7IqZY







Even though? Brian wrote the verses so it's a co-write. No reason for feeling ripped off.

Yeah, I was referring only to the tag - I think the song itself is great. It's such a great coda that I assumed it was created by Brian....hence my disappointment.

I was surprised to find out about some of the songs that have been borrowed in Al songs, so I started thinking about how many of his songs have borrowed from another song.  I count 6 that I believe are all original, are these correct?

Here are his songs:
At My Window - Rasperries, Strawberries - The Kingston Trio
Lookin At Tomorrow - The Wanderer - The Kingston Trio
California Saga/The Beaks Of Eagles - Original
California Saga/California - California Girls
Susie Cincinnati - Original
Lady Lynda\Lady Liberty - Bach
California Calling - Original
Island Girl - I think someone has mentioned that this is another Kingston Trio song
PT Cruiser - Numerous Car songs
California Energy Blues \ California Recall Blues - M.T.A - The Kingston Trio
A Postcard From California - Rhinestone Cowboy - Glen Campbell
Lookig Down The Coast - Original
San Simeon - Don't Worry Baby (the beginning)
Drivin' - Tuesday Afternoon - The Moody Blues
And I Always Will - Original
Waves of Love - Original

Well, it partly uses the melody of Buddy Holly's "Everyday".

California Calling borrows pretty heavily from Surfin' USA

And Waves of Love borrows from California Girls and Help Me Rhonda.

Hasn't Al said that And I Always Will is Chopin inspired?

And we have a bit of reversal:

"Walkin' The Line" --> borrows a bit from "Lookin' Down The Coast"

So it looks like Susie Cincinnati and Lookin Down The Coast don't borrow from anything then.

Also 'The tide is high' by Blondie (not Chaplin)

Yeah looks like they did take a lot from Raspberries, Strawberries. Should have checked youtube earlier. Even Brian's "it came to my window" backing vocal is a direct rip!

Technically accurate, but not as funny, which I think was the point of the original post...

Keep in mind too, that the Boys had just signed with Warner's, and they either explicitly or implicitly were asked for more Brian involvement.  It's not surprising then that they'd pad out his cowriting credits.  What's a little more surprising is that Brian WASN'T credited on "Take A Load Off Your Feet" on SURF'S UP, but he apparently did cowrite that (the sheet music lists him as a cowriter and I think later pressings as well, though I am less sure about that).

Never seen the credit on any of the LP pressings, tho it is on the Epic CD's, and definitely in the SU/Sunflower songbook, published in 1972  : 


      (http://i44.tinypic.com/28m1xxs.jpg)

Just for reference ...

(http://earbuds.popdose.com/kenshane/images/surfsup.jpg)

A couple of quotes from Al regarding Brian's involvement in "...Feet:"

“And so Brian and I got carried away. He'd come down at night and sit and play the bottles, these Sparklett's bottles we had lying around. He walked around on the roof – there was this skipping sound on the end of the song, you know, and that was Brian on the asphalt roof of the garage, skipping around in a circle.” (Felton, 1976, p. 50).   

“I invited Brian to come down. Again, a lot of this stuff was to get Brian in the mood to come down and have some fun. So I thought, “Boy, this is really nutty. Let's just do something stupid.” I said, “Brian, do you want to help me?” “Sure.” (Sharp, 2000, p. 19).


References

Felton, D. (1976). The healing of brother Brian: A multitrack interview with Beach Boys Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and Al, plus Brian's mom, his dad, his wife and his shrink. Rolling Stone, (225), 36-51.

Sharp, K. (2000). Alan Jardine: A Beach Boy still riding the waves. Goldmine, (26)15, 14-104.

I really like you including reference lists, metal flake paint!

The question now is where did Al steal the melody for Feet from?

I try to include references wherever I can as a result of writing university papers.

My method is much simpler:

"Because I bloody well say so !"  :old

I'll grant, it can lack credibility...

For everybody giving Al sh*t for not writing "original" stuff, let's keep in mind that "borrowing" melodies and sometimes lyrics is really very much in the folk tradition. So as The Beach Boys resident folkie, that would make sense.

I mean shoot. There's this guy named Bob Dylan. Some of you may have heard from him. He's been "borrowing" since at least "Song to Woody" and "Blowin' in the Wind". And anybody remember how much sh*t Bob was getting around "Love And Theft" and Modern Times? I think a lot of people don't understand how the folk process works, and if you studied that, I think Al's thing would make a bit more sense.

Well, that's waht I said although not as detailed as you. It's a common thing in everything like blues, country, folk, gospel etc. It became a problem when the big money appeared.