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Surprised nobody has posted this yet:    http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/dec/31/dennis-wilson-rocks-backpages

  Great article, great poem.

Thank You ED

The part about him crying over POB was really sad  :'(.  I wish someone would've been willing to listen, that was one heck of an album.....jerks  >:(

oops!  New 'old' article...  I had such tears in my eyes reading this that it took Howie to point out to me that it was written in '08.  I had only looked at The Guardian date of Tuesday 31 December 2013.  Still a great article, but wanted to mention that I had missed that it's a few years old

New to the board as a poster and just slightly pertaining to DW; on holiday in California last year and found we had booked into a hotel opposite a somehow strangely familiar sounding bar called ..Chez Jay. Changed the whole mindset of my stay.

Enough folk listened to buy 200,000 copies in 1977 and send it to #96 in the Billboard Top 200 Album Chart. I think the tears were more over lack of band support (the proposed mini promo tour) than the actual impact of the album.

Thanks, Ed...always great to read something like this.

 "No one listened," he moans, "not even my brothers."

Heart breaking.

Uh huh that's what I was talkin about they were jerks to him about that album and they shouldn't have been  >:(

Welcone, messofhelp, anyone with that handle is most welcome in my book!!

Great article, Ed...had not seen it. Bill Bentley is a powerful writer; this is a really affecting piece.

And he has a quote from Brian that I'd not seen before but that really sums things up so beautifully:

"He might have looked out a different window than me and Carl," says Brian Wilson today, "but he had the biggest view. I loved him so much."

Now THAT's a classic example of BW insight, IMO.

And Bill's closing line (before the poem) is one that any writer would wish to have written:

"Life isn't for everyone, it's said, but for so many years, Dennis Wilson lived his like he had invented his own dream."

Great stuff. Thanks again, Ed!

Not liking an album doesn't make anyone a "jerk." I'm not a huge fan of it myself. No one owes anyone anything and Dennis got a lot more people to listen to his album, by virtue of being a Beach Boy, than a lot of struggling, unknown artists.

As for lack of support by the Beach Boys for a Dennis solo tour, I've read that Dennis wanted to tour with a huge, expensive band.  Maybe if he would have attempted something smaller, or did a few test gigs in the LA area first, he may have gotten more support for a tour. Also, weren't record labels funding tours back in those days? In other words, it would have been Dennis's label that didn't give him the financial support for the tour. The Beach Boys had no obligation to help a Dennis solo tour, as they had no obligation to support solo tours for Brian, Mike, Al, or Carl. Carl managed to do some touring and live performing without any support from the Beach Boys.

Maybe it's not your taste but the guys were always willing to uplift Brian's work but it seems they didn't want to give Denny's stuff a fair chance and the people who were around at the time have noted that they were jealous of it, particularly Mike Love and Al Jardine.   

Correct me if I'm wrong ( :old), but wasn't Carl going to be part of the touring band supporting Dennis?

"No one listened," he moans, "not even my brothers."

Not even my BROTHERS.

Carl gave POB a mention at the 1978 Melbourne concert though  :).  but his brothers should've been there for him too  :(.  But the most I've read about the jealousy for that album was about Mike and Al though.  Brian would be at his worst shape but they would still try to uplift his work, they didn't do that for Denny back then (unless someone can prove me wrong  :-\)

Brian is on record saying that he never knew Dennis recorded Pacific Ocean Blue. This flies in the face of previous "knowledge" of his alleged praise for the record. The band's management (probably working from the Brian/Michael/Al faction's voting record) told Dennis that his future in the Beach Boys would be that of a former member if he started the solo tour in late 1977.

Why wouldn't they replace him in the band if he went on a solo tour that likely conflicted with Beach Boys' dates? He could either be a Beach Boy, who were touring heavily at the time, or have a solo career. That's how the music business works. Even Carl left the band when he toured as a solo, and Carl was arguably a more crucial member of the group than Dennis, being a co-lead singer. Dennis was talking in the mode of someone full of alcohol in that interview. The writer is trying to make it sound like the "rejection" of PBO was the reason Dennis was alcoholic and in a bad state. When he likely would have been that way even if he had gotten what he wanted.

Rolling Stone magazine published a really nice review of Pacific Ocean Blue. He had the music critics on his side. It sounds like Dennis would rather have had his (Beach Boys) family's approval and encouragement instead. Apparently he didn't which is tragic and sad.

I'm a fan of Mike Love's Celebration band. To let Mike go and do that project and not let Dennis tour and promote his album was just terrible. How would anyone feel if that happened.

A successful tour and acceptance of Dennis and POB could have opened many doors. If would most certainly helped Dennis's self-esteem. Maybe the hard partying would have slowed down and stopped. Well.....maybe.

I try not to take sides with this band. Listen to the music and enjoy.

 :h5

I wonder if the idea for Dennis to support the Beach Boys as an opening act was ever floated? There are obvious pros and cons to such a solution but the biggest plus would have been had Dennis really been serious about presenting his songs to the masses, then it would have required him to show up on time, sober and willing to put in the legwork of rehearsal and soundcheck. It might have motivated him to get his sh*t together.

Brian and to a certain extent, Carls musical tastes were pretty much set by the late 70s when Dennis recorded POB. While I feel sorry for him, the fact he is your brother doesn't mean you have to like or listen to his music. My own brothers musical tastes were worlds apart at that time and still are today.

Which is one of the reasons, maybe the main reason, why I personally do not believe that Dennis was given an ultimatum about his proposed "tour".

It makes no sense. Supposedly The Beach Boys' didn't want Dennis' songs on their albums (which factually is not true). There were better drummers available for touring such as Bobby Figueroa. Dennis' behavior - such as criticizing the band's new albums in the press - made him a liabilty. He was an alcoholic and drug addict which was an image the group did not welcome, especially with Brian's well-documented problems. Around that time, Dennis sang lead on a grand total of one song, "You Are So Beautiful" (his 15 second tag on "It's OK" was sporadic). Many times when The Beach Boys performed a new song, Dennis left the stage. Mike was able to do Celebration and Carl was able to do two solo albums, and still be welcomed as Beach Boys, but not Dennis? Who was more valuable?

I admit that I'm stubborn about this issue, and any friends', acquaintances', or hangers on's stories aren't going to change my mind on the issue. Minutes from meetings would be nice. You would think that something that important - dictating a band member's career moves - would be documented. I mean, from everything we do know about Dennis' behavior during that time frame (1977-78), you would think Mike Love would personally hire a driver, bus, and sound crew to make sure Dennis' tour came off with no hitches.

I saw The Beach Boys with Dennis a few times in the 1978-83 time frame. While, yes, Dennis still maintained some stage presence and charisma, it wasn't The Beach Boys with the good looking drummer, Denny Wilson, anymore. Again, Dennis contributed nothing vocally, the girls weren't screaming and pushing people out of the way to get to him, his drumming was inconsistent, and frankly, musically, the shows were tighter without him. Yes, it was cool if Dennis came out to the front of the stage to introduce a song, or played one song at the piano, or yelled an inappropriate comment through his microphone, or croaked "You Are So Beautiful". And, I'm not saying that I preferred The Beach Boys without him. What I am saying, in my opinion, is that what Dennis was contributing onstage at that particular time (1977-78), wouldn't be substantially missed, and I find it hard to believe the guys would put up such a stink if Dennis wanted to, um, leave for a few weeks.

I became a fan in 78 and of course this was pre-net so I relied on magazine stories like most. The behind the scenes details were probably the hardest to find anything on, but would it be possible that Dennis may not have survived a solo tour and the Beach Boys wanted to keep a watch full eye on him? Think about it. Dennis probably would have chosen the musicians, tour personnel and assorted hangers on. A dangerous cocktail.

Would Brother or another label have to provide money in advance to get a tour underway, and if it fell apart mid tour, could Dennis pay it back?

how come with the BB he couldn't just sing one of his own songs, and only did "You Are So Beautiful", was it because it was long enough for him to be up front to satisfy the fans and short enough where in his drunken state wouldn't have time to do anything stupid or what?  :shrug  Because the only live version of River Song that I've heard is the one where Blondie sang lead  ??? And Carl got to sing his solo songs in the 1983 shows  ???

For me it wasn't how much Dennis contributed to the live shows. I just wanted to SEE HIM THERE. I was disappointed when he wasn't there. Same thing with Brian. If Brian just sat and played a few chords on the piano well, for me I was glad to just SEE HIM THERE. Nice to see them all together.

After hearing POB I wanted to see Dennis on stage that much more. Dennis did come out front to sing 'Angel Come Home' in the late 70's.

Stuck on a desert island and can have only one Beach Boys Solo Album? I must have Pacific Ocean Blue.

That 25th anniversary show on NBC with all of the guest musicians? Yes, it would have been so much better if Dennis was back there kickin' it on the drums.

For me the band was never the same.

Brian is also on record as saying how much he loved POB, and that predated the "never knew" quote by a good 30 years. I know which one I'd afford more credence.

I agree with you and I'm with you. We're diehards.

But, what you said - "I just wanted to SEE HIM THERE" - is basically my point. The Beach Boys really weren't getting much from Dennis in 1977 other than him (Dennis) being seen. I mean, really, I won't rehash it but Dennis' contributions to the group were fading fast. Would the group deny him a solo career because they wanted him "to be seen"? To some degree I'm sure the band sensed the strength in numbers (of Beach Boys on stage), but, I didn't think they were at that point yet - yet - where the number of Beach Boys on stage was an issue. That would come later.

I've spent a good amount of time listening to the multi-tracked POB tour rehearsals from late '77 and there is no doubt Dennis was on his game and the material was sounding amazing. If this Nov. 77 incarnation of Dennis Wilson solo is the version that the public would have heard I don't think it's a stretch to say it would have been well received. The arrangements of the up-tempo songs were funkier, hotter and in some ways better than the LP versions, and in general made the Beach Boys sound archaic in comparison. The players obviously loved the material, and particularly the brass section was just on fire doing things like Time, What's Wrong, Pacific Ocean Blues and Dreamer. The what if , whether Dennis could pull it off or not, keep himself together...if his BB's history is the evidence then it would undoubtedly be hit and miss. But to generally paint Dennis as not a factor or weak contributor to the BB's in '77 to '83 is fundamentally untrue. Yes, at times he was drunk, even often, and his drumming erratic...but to say they weren't "getting much" from him in those years goes completely against the historical evidence of concert goers and reviewers who, just as often as they noted he was terrible or a distraction, often made the counterpoint that he was the only thing that gave the band any rock credibility, soul or passion. He was regularly noted as being a mess, and he was regularly noted as being the star and the highlight and the primal energy of an otherwise wheezing oldies show. Ian and I poured through dozens upon dozens of concert reviews from writers who were there, a good sampling are in the Beach Boys In Concert book...and there you can see that with Dennis it was hit or miss, almost to the end...sometimes he was embarrassing, other times he lifted the whole experience with his presence. It's all recorded in the history of the band, and I can say from personal experience I saw both sides. His drumming and presence were brilliant in two of the four '76 - '81 shows I saw...and in the other two he was messed up and even violent. But i can also say he had the POB tour set completely tight and happening, and someday...  I hope you all can hear it. It was pretty cool until the plug got pulled.

Awesome post Jon ;D and I hope those tapes come out soon

Great insight, Jon. Wow, I hope those recordings get released. I hope the guys find it in their hearts to release one more tribute to their brother and cousin Dennis. Please...........

Translation: "most importantly not even my brothers."

Poor guy had a sad life. Murry screwed all those boys up bad.

Something everyone here is missing in the rush to condemn Carl & Brian on this particular point - Carl is very obviously on at least two, maybe three tracks of the album (and remember, at the time Carl had a serious back problem - reportedly he did his vocals for POB in a wheelchair: I'd call that above and beyond the call of duty, even for your brother), so to say he never listened to it is, well, impossible. Unless he did his vocals with his fingers in his ears .  ;D

OMG.. Live tour rehearsal tapes..  :love   I hope and pray I get to hear those before I cross the great divide..

Me too!

Many thanks Jon. Fine, informative post… now we're all wondering when those tapes were last listened to and whether a release is on the cards for the near future!

Would love to know the personnel involved. Would the tour have definitely been a separate entity ora prolonged Dennis set within some BBs gigs? Would Dennis have had his own backing band or was part of the problem perhaps that he hoped to use BBs backing musicians? Who were his backing singers?

Were there other songs being rehearsed than the POB songs?

Jon will have to answer you about the tapes, as I'm dying to hear them myself!  However, I was there for several rehearsals, and as I recall his band was pretty well pillaged from The Beach Boys back up band;  Carly, (of course), Bobby & Eddie, and the horn section The Hornets.  This probably added to their anxiety about his solo tour, which was a complete separate entity, (except for when they tried it out opening for The Boys), and was initially booked for ten cities

I just wrote an extensive post answering some of your questions, but before I hit reply it disappeared...Dennis? Anyway, a quick and less detailed second try...the backing band was the BB's horn section (Michael Andreas, John Foss, Lance Bueller, Charlie McCarthy etc... plus Carli M, Billy H, Bobby F, Ed C, Sterling Smith)...Dennis on lead vocals, Carl was there too and sang a little. This, unlike the Aug '77 experiment of a POB mini-set which only lasted a couple of gigs, was not in any way connected to the BB's tours, it was a stand-alone tour set, and gigs/dates were booked in Dec. '77 and early '78 that did not conflict with BB's tours/gigs.

The tapes were evaluated several years ago when Jim Guercio was considering a follow up release after the success of the POB Legacy set. These live rehearsals would in theory be a part of that release. This release would have been titled Tornado, which was another of Dennis' working titles, and also the nickname of the horn section he was using, formerly known (as Ed said) the Hornettes. The idea got shelved when Guercio's energy went toward trying to assist in getting the Drummer film off the ground, which turned out to be a dead end.

The only non POB song on the rehearsal tapes is Baby Blue, although I assume they would have performed You Are So Beautiful as well, no need to rehearse that one as they'd been doing it for years. I'd expect the tour set would have been nearly the whole POB album, plus Baby Blue and YASB...they could have added more as they went.

The emphasis seemed to be on the dynamic rhythmic elements of the songs, and not so much on vocals or subtlety... even the ballads had a powerful feel i would describe as "Big". This was a hot band that sounded like the shackles of Little Deuce Coupe had been taken off, and they were getting to play something new and exciting. It's an electric performance, loose in places, and incredibly tight in others. Soulful, funky, progressive, edgy even...nothing like the '78 BB's. It sounded like fun with a positive energy throughout.

Wasn't Dennis, Jon - just me (tee hee!)  Guess we were posting at the same time.  Thought some of these tapes were the rehearsals from Brother Studio, rather than from the shows they did opening for The Boys.  Also, we're both right about the horn section - they were The Hornets at first, and I think Dennis rechristened them The Tornados

Yep, the tapes were definitely from multiple days rehearsals at Brother, as you said. I'd heard a bit of them many years ago at one of our mutual friend's home. But the last time I heard them was up at Hanlon's house with Guercio's approval and they seemed to be a lot more complete than i previously remembered, more vocals, more complete takes. They just sounded so f'n great! And Ed, for you to have been there while all this was happening must have been so exciting, and also so disorienting as everything was happening at once. It's like everything came together and crashed and burned in an almost simultaneous dance. It must have been like doing heart surgery during an earthquake.

I saw Dennis at many of those concerts in the Bay Area and Sacramento in the 70's. While reading this thread, I remember how Dennis was at those concerts, full of energy on stage, conversing with the crowd, just an integral part of the band. Radio station interviews and record store signings revealing a happy, energetic guy. Then only about a year after POB came out, many, including myself, witnessed a fast downward spiral. Look at him in the concert videos from '78, disheveled, the face losing expression, the vitality seemingly lost, the alcohol and coke really taking hold. After reading above what could have been and how fast it was put together then disintegrated and the proposed mini=tour aborted, it's really surprising and unusual how fast he declined right after that.

Many many thanks for the replies Jon and Ed. his material sounds like a new Grail for fans: we've had Smile, we've had  WIBNTLA, we've had POB and the out-of-left-field Bambu… even AWoPMC… and now this, which from the sound of it packs as much punch as any of those.

How can we encourage Jim Guercio to proceed with Tornado?


Oh boy oh boy oh boy…

Interestingly enough, there are AFM contracts from Brother Studio late '77 that would seem to be from these rehearsals. And the artist's name on them is "Dennis Wilson Bamboo"...so evidently, he was calling his band Bambu and someone just used the more conventional spelling. For the benefit of anyone who hasn't already seen it, here are some comments supplied directly to me a few years ago by horn man Michael Andreas, which I incorporated into my POB/Bambu essay at beachboysarchives.com:

"It was during this period that Dennis asked me to put together a band to tour the album.  It took me a month or so to do the charts and get things together for our first rehearsals...we had a band ready to go out and tour Pacific Ocean Blue...it was incredible, but Dennis pulled the plug on it.  Long story...personally I don't think he was ready for it...The band rehearsed for several weeks, then Dennis got into an argument with the record label because they wouldn't also support taking a string section on the road with us.  Dennis got mad, cancelled the tour and the band never performed.  Personally, my feeling was that as the band started shaping up and everyone was getting very excited about it (it was really quite incredible!), the responsibility of carrying it all on his shoulders became too much for Dennis.  We could have easily hired a string section for any of the big venues we were going to play... that's what bands were doing at that time and I told Dennis... but it was over.  Although it took awhile, Dennis did pay everyone for their services.  I (with the help of Trisha Campo) made certain the musicians all got paid.  I waited a year for my payment which leads to an interesting side story.  An attorney told me that as long as I continued sending Dennis a billing reminder once a year, my claim would remain active.  So at the end of the year, I sent Dennis a letter telling him about this and that he shouldn't worry about the 'legal' ramifications of the letter, that I was just protecting myself and that I knew that when he had the funds, I would get paid.  Thanks to Trisha, I finally did get paid.  But years later when I saw Dennis in Venice Beach (he was at his worst - a few months before his death)...at first I thought it was a bum walking my way, then I saw it was Dennis, so I said 'Hey Dennis!'.  He looked at me... a spark of recognition came across his face and he said...'I remember you... you sued me!'.  Such was the price of being Dennis' friend".  Andreas adds, "Dennis was pretty much everything you may have heard:  brilliant and tortured, he could be cruel, he could be an angel, a best friend, no friend.  But he certainly made my life a lot more interesting and I'm better for it!". 

Here you go...based on the AFM contracts I mentioned above...from my essay mentioned above:

"Dennis also planned a short concert tour behind Pacific Ocean Blue; by that time The Beach Boys as a group had also signed to CBS/Caribou, so the contractual prohibition barring Dennis from performing live solo was null and void.  When POB was released in late August, Dennis actually opened a couple of Beach Boys shows (at Pine Knob in Michigan) with a short solo set following "official" tour opener Ricci Martin (a Wilson brothers protégé and Dean's son).  According to Bobby Figueroa, there was no real rehearsal, just a quick run-through at soundcheck.  "We'd do a half-hour set before The Beach Boys came on, but it didn't last very long.  It was me, Carli Muñoz, Ed Carter, Billy (Hinsche), and Dennis played keyboards".  Guitarist Ed Tuleja and bassist Wayne Tweed also played in Dennis' band for these performances.  By the time the tour hit Canada a few days later, Dennis' solo set had shrunk to just two songs ("What's Wrong" and "Friday Night") performed in the middle of The Beach Boys' show, and even that lasted only for a couple of shows at the most.  The shambolic nature of these performances cast doubt on Dennis' ability to lead a band of his own, and he apparently realized this and decided to buckle down and refine his act.  To this end, Dennis held a handful of rehearsals at Brother Studio in late October and early November, with a band consisting of guitarists Ed Tuleja and Steve Ross, bassist/background vocalist Joe Chemay, keyboardists Carli Muñoz and Elmo Peeler, drummer Bobby Figueroa, vibraphonist/percussionist Darrell Harris, and horn players Michael Andreas, Rod Novak, Lance Buller, Bill Lamb, John Foss, and Charlie McCarthy, plus Carl, Billy Hinsche, and Dennis himself on piano and vocals (the record company balked at Dennis' initial demand for a 22-piece ensemble including a string section).  Ricci Martin was hired as the opening act, and it was announced that Brian might even join the show in one or two cities, along with Bruce Johnston.  The tour would have opened in New York in late November, working its way west into December.  Dates were booked in about ten cities, at venues such as Hofstra University in Hempstead, NY (November 22nd), New York City's Avery Fisher Hall (November 23rd), Philadephia's Academy of Music (November 29th), and Los Angeles' Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, with Chicago also mentioned as a likely stop.  However, the tour was cancelled, and the reasons appear to be many and complex, including the label's refusal to pay for the string section, pressure from The Beach Boys' management, and Dennis' own personal demons." 

"Essay", Craig? Fine liner/sleeve notes!

Terrific stuff.  Many, many thanks.

First of all, I want to say thank you very much to Mr Roach, Mr Stebbins, and c-man for all the incredible insights into this period of Dennis's life. This may well turn into another thread to be looked back on as one of the best. After reading the last several posts, I can kind of understand how The Beach Boys could have come to the decision of giving Dennis an ultimatum of either touring as a solo or the band, but not both. If the tour would have been of the same caliber that the existing tapes are(going from Jon's description alone), then it it would have been downright embarrassing for the group. Let's for a minute use the analogy of The Who getting into a fight with Jimi Hendrix over who would follow who at the Monterey festival. Now, as big of a Who fan as I am, I have to admit that in 1967 Jimi Hendrix was simply a better concert experience. I believe the same could be said for Dennis and Carl touring POB versus a typical 1977-78 Beach Boys concert. I'd rather see and hear Dennis and Carl do the POB album and hear Carl sing Baby Blue, than a 1978 Beach Boys show with a warbling out of tune In My Room "sung" by Brian, followed by a badly damaged Jan Berry trying his best to sing a half decent version of Dead Man's Curve, with the rest of the band not knowing which harmony line to sing. A 1977-78(what year/ month are we talking about, exactly?) Dennis and Carl Wilson tour could have been a big humiliation for The Beach Boys. If the tour had been successful, then it would have been a very public humiliation. Let's also consider the fact that since this hypothetical tour was so successful, various record labels are clamoring to sign Dennis and Carl for additional albums and tours. A Dennis and Carl tour very well have ended The Beach Boys as a group.

I can understand frustration on the band's part about Dennis going out on a solo tour when he couldn't even get it together for one of The Beach Boys' tours. I know they didn't "need" him out on the road, but sometimes people do irrational things out of frustration. "Get it together for our shows, then you can do your own thing."

I was waiting for some reaction and/or response to this quote from Michael Andreas. I think it's interesting anyway...

Thanks for the nice post...just a reminder...Dennis already had a three-album deal with CBS/Caribou. Wish he could have honored it.

I've spoken at length with Jim Guercio about this situation, and to me he might have the most balanced perspective because he was straddling all sides of the drama, the creative, the business, the political etc... In his opinion Dennis was over-reaching in his request for strings and a huge backing band for the tour, and he also was aware of Dennis' fear of success issues, that he tended to instinctively detonate anything and everything good in his life. It was a shock and a surprise to him that POB was delivered on time and within budget. But Guercio also acknowledges the resentment from certain elements of the BB's infrastructure who were undoubtedly an inhibiting factor to DW's solo endeavor. When i quoted those who have said Dennis was given an ultimatum by certain bandmates and/or their management relatives Guercio's reaction was basically..yeah...that kind of thing was everywhere at the time. I guess the quote from Al during the Airplane Tarmac altercation in Sept. '77 is reflective of this attitude when Al (quoted by the Rolling Stone writer who witnessed the incident) said Dennis has been "riding Brian's coat-tails" since day one...well yeah...which Beach Boy hadn't? To Al's credit he looks back now and freely admits Dennis should have been given more support from the group, not because that was an automatically expected position, but because what Dennis was doing was artistically better than what the BB's were doing. Al says, "we didn't really recognize Dennis' talent, we just thought he was a pain in the ass."

Jon, wasn't it actually Steve or Stan Love who was quoted as making the "Brian's coatails" remark? It would take me a million years to dig out my old photocopy of the Rolling Stone article, but I think the Al quote you may be referring to was actually something along the lines of "Y'know, we don't need you (Dennis). We can do this without you". Dennis later said that it was Al who really "knifed" him in the heart with that remark.

Regarding the speculation of the Dennis/Carl tour potentially outshining the Beach Boys in late '77/early '78, I think that woiuld definitely be true musically, but remember Dennis and Carl were both dealing with heroin addictions in early '78, and that probably would've negatively impacted the POB tour had it contintued into the new year. Mike and Al performed pretty solidly on that Australia/NZ tour, while the Wilson bros. were in varying stages of near-incapacitation. There's no reason to think that would not also been true had they toured POB at that time instead of playing with the BBs. Food for thought. But I agree with everyone here...the POB Tour tapes NEED to be released, so lets hope that now "The Drummer" movie is kaput, Mr. Guercio can take his plans for a "Tornado" release off the shelf and hire Mr. Hanlon to once again work his post-production magic on the tapes...and include the "POB" outtake "Taking Off", and any other sundry studio outtakes that DW had in the can.

Isn't there some other Dennis stuff that hasn't seen the light of day yet that should be released? Or even some alternates on released stuff. Seems to me there's still some Wilson/Dragon stuff that hasn't been released yet. Maybe this could be the impetus to release these '77 "Tornado" Sessions. Or are we at the "scraping the barrel" stage and there's only a handful of Dennis things that haven't been released yet on various comps?

From reading all the knowledgeable replies, it really comes to light just what a truly tragic misstep it was for the POB tour to be nixed, since it seems that the nixing of the tour helped lead Dennis way further into a depression.

Obviously Dennis had some serious, serious self-worth issues thanks to Murry, and with all the uncompromising hard work he did for recording POB, he really was seeking to make a deep statement about who he was as a person, and to also say to the world (and seemingly especially his family) that he had artistic merit and was capable of producing something really special, like his brother did years earlier. I have to assume that the way in which the record was thought of by his bandmates (and the ways in which they said/didn't say things about POB to him) was of extraordinary importance to Dennis finally getting a semblance of self-worth, and whatever level of praise and deep/true understanding that Dennis was looking for seemed to not have been expressed (to Dennis' satisfaction) by his brothers about the album at the time.  Of course, his brothers were in very rough shape themselves at this time period themselves.

I have to assume that Dennis, feeling that his artistic "statement" was lost (to some degree) by the people he wanted to really, really "get" his statement, seemed to be the tipping point for what sent him over the edge to really have the demons take over. I'm sure that his bandmates have thought about this in the years after his passing, and wished they'd given him more support at the time.  One of course cannot assign "blame" in all of this, because these are emotionally messed-up/irrational, and in some cases drug-addicted people (for many, many reasons) that we are talking about here. But I have often been curious as to what the lynchpin was in the late 70s/early 80s that caused Denny's depression/substance abuse to increase to epic proportions, and Dennis' statement about "not even my brothers" just cut so deep when I read it, that it seemed to have been a major catalyst for Dennis jump starting his true downward spiral.

Craig I think you're right...I recalled there was a mean quote from Al in that article, but I seemed to have wrongly attributed the even meaner Love brother quote to him. The quote in my post's final sentence is correct, as that one comes from an interview I did with Al myself.

Jon and Craig--really appreciate you guys supplying all of this fascinating info to us here...helps us further understand the maelstrom that was the BBs' world in that frenetic post-"Brian's Back" time frame. Certainly hope that those rehearsals will make it to the listening audience some day, as so many of us remain fascinated by Dennis, his music, and the still less-than-well-known elements of his creative process.

Isn't there such a thing as dues-paying in the music world? I'm not sure exactly how Dennis would rate a huge backing band with a string section and dates booked at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion when he was still an unknown commodity, as a solo act, in the music world (one middle-selling solo album is not dues-paying). I have a feeling those ten dates would not have sold out most of those particular venues. as he had not yet built his own audience through the usual way of getting a hit record(s) on the radio and starting out with a smaller outfit and smaller dates.  He's lucky that his record label and the Beach Boys gave him as much support as they did in that very ambitious endeavor, and it never would have gotten as far as rehearsals if they had not been giving him some support.

Coattails quote is page 304 of the Gaines H&V book. Guilty party?....Stan.

I'm not sure, either, had the POB tour happened, that it would have been perceived among BB's fans as blowing the old group's then-current shows out of the water. Remember, this is a fan base than preferred the greatest hits show to the more creative shows the band was doing in the early 70's. Sure, us die hards love the music the group was doing in concert circa 71-73, but the average BB's fan just wanted Little Deuce Coupe, Surfer Girl  and I Get Around endlessly. They probably would have looked at Dennis' solo excursion with moderate interest, but still have preferred the arena/stadium shows of singalong oldies. It's not that the band didn't fight the slide into oldiesdom, but as Carl said after the success of "Endless Summer", "it became obvious what the fans wanted....REALLY obvious".

A little too moralistic with that "dues" thing, KK, IMHO. Fifteen years as the BBs drummer ought to count for something.

But what Jon and Craig bring out in their posts is the intensity of the feelings that were swirling about in the agonizing period where the BBs' attempt to reinvent their sound was foundering in the wake of their ENDLESS SUMMER revival. One can understand how Dennis (and to a lesser extent, Carl) were feeling slighted by the headlong rush from the Love contingent to push Brian back in the spotlight and cement the return to prominence that had happened in '74-'75 without any new product  whatsoever (OK, save "Child of Winter").

Dennis really went back and forth between trying to present his work in the context of the band and going out on his own. We all have had agonizing decisions to make in our lives; this was Dennis's. Already the black sheep of the family, but not wanting to be permanently ostracized, he sat on a very pointed fence for years untll it drew blood. It takes a great deal of courage to walk away from something as big as the BBs, even in the inchaote state of their fortunes. Once he'd committed to making a solo LP, it's only natural that he'd want to give a live show the best possible set of musical values, knowing that he was probably only get one shot to put it over. Unfortunately, he also had the problem of a deteriorating voice, which would have created some eyebrow-raising in the catty "rock critical community" of that time (it's not quite that bad today thanks to the dispersive effect of the Interent).

And LS is right in noting that by 1977, there would be some amount of backlash from reonstituted BB fans to POB. The trap door in the BBs career had opened in the late 60s, they wnadered about for awhile and regained critical respect if not mega-LP sales, but fate brought them onto a highway where a large bus called ENDLESS SUMMER mowed them down, then patched them up and tossed them onboard. The repercussions just reverberated from there.

No need to rewrite what CenturyDeprived posted, as it covers Dennis's perspective extremely well. It's seriously sad that Dennis couldn't have been supported in having a side career as a solo artist and still stay in the band. It echoes what many people wanted to be the case for Brian a decade earlier.

And Brian wasn't aloud to do that either.. Solo career + stay in the band.. Interestingly  that did happen for Carl + Mike in 80's.. I suspect without any knowledge of the situation Carl REALLY left the band.. Which would mean he got no road royalties .. Only record  money.. That's what happens in most bands.. Not on the road no road money..  If so Carl took a huge chance for a couple of years that Dennis wasn't willing to do.. I suspect Carl's finances were in better shape than Dennis's also.. And I am aware of the BRI corporation..   Now Mike solo career back then didn't involve BB money ..He was on other labels.. And showed up for BB gigs.. Except that tour of Japan  .. Was that 1990 or so..??  So each situation was different.. And wasn't BW publishing royalties keeping BB afloat early 70's.. I read that somewhere a long time ago..  So Dennis was in a situation that was dicey and did what he had to do to protect himself and his lifestyle.. In his shoes I would have done the same thing + I don't fault Dennis at all.. If anything BB should have let him do both.. Dennis wasn't near as out of control then as he was in 81-82 -83.. It looks to me as BRI being vindictive and shortsighted at the very least.. IMHO

Doesn't some of the research show that Dennis is the one who pulled the plug on the tour?  It's almost like people want to go out of their way to blame the Beach Boys for the stopping of the tour, even though it appears they were doing nothing to stop it and the dates didn't conflict with the Beach Boys touring schedule. Unconfirmed reports of people grousing are not the same as people going out of their way to formally stop it, which was never proved to have happened.

It does sound like Dennis was using his own money and got cold feet. The fact that he owed the band members money and took a long time to pay them back shows that he was mostly using his own cash, and was trying to fill the gap with whatever the record company was willing to offer. It wasn't the Beach Boys' place to pay for Dennis's musicians or his string section, and Dennis's record company was willing to pay for part of the tour, but not the string section. My question about dues paying had as much to do with Dennis building an audience for himself, who were willing to buy tickets for his concerts, as to whether he had played enough years as a drummer (which does not apply to paying dues as a singer-songwriter). What if Dennis had gone on that tour and lost a lot of money. Or perhaps worst of all for his confidence and emotional well-being, he played in halls that were half or two-thirds full, with lots of open seats for him to look at? Or sold so poorly that the tour had to be cancelled or the venues changed to small clubs? With a guy of his sensitivity, perhaps he was not willing to risk that sense of rejection.

But we know all too well the tendancy to blame the Beach Boys  (meaning - usually - Mike, and to a lesser extent, Al, and Carl - for everything that went wrong in the career of the band and the individuals in it. In hindsight, I'd say Carl had the right approach to his solo excursions - a style of music that was relatively simple, and thus, could be reproduced on stage with a small band.

Excuse me re read what I said and this whole thread and rolling stone article 1977.. I ONLY blame the BRI corporation for being narrow minded and NOT letting Brian + Dennis have dual careers.... Dennis pulled the plug on his solo tour I didn't blame BRI..  For many reasons including financial.. If he LEFT the band no tour revenue.. 3-5 million dollars a year  ..  He was between a rock + a hard place.. He could have done road gigs AROUND BB gigs.. And still done BB road gigs and done BOTH.. BRI didn't present that to him.. Read the articles + Quotes..  WE don't need you so go ahead and go solo..!!  DONT put words in my mouth here.. And I didn't blame Dennis I would have done the same thing..  Mike did solo records + solo tours AROUND BB gigs  and still got his road BB money.. It doesn't appear Dennis was offered that.. None of US knows the whole truth so we speculate.. That's what goes on around here.. :pirate

The thing about the string section makes me think of Amanda Palmer, who advertised for string players to play in her live band for free in each city she arrived in, in spite of having raised over a million dollars in a Kickstarter campaign. If only Dennis had been around in the Internet age, he could have had his tour and his string section.

Sorry you thought I was directing my comments at you, Mr. Wilson. It was just more of a general comment on Beach Boys fans over the years.

No offense takin by either of you..   Maybe im not making my self clear or just a grumpy old man today.. Im sorry also..  ;D..   Its probably the later..   :old

Mike and Al killed Bambu! :o

The record buying public didn't want Dennis' product, couldn't that be the reason for a lot of things not happening? We kind of get the cart before the horse sometimes I think.

To echo what others have said, the "No one listened, not even my brothers" line is kind of unfair to Brian, given his own issues at the time, and VERY unfair to Carl.

I'm sure we've all seen the clip from Australia of a wasted Carl touting Pacific Ocean Blue, and I would have to think he probably talked it up at other shows from the time. Plus there are pictures of him sporting a Dennis POB T-shirt, not to mention the obvious fact that he appears on several tracks, even though contractually he wasn't supposed to and therefore couldn't be credited.

It seems like Carl was very supportive of solo Dennis, but Dennis was in such a sad state by 1983 that he remembered it differently.

I think it was a catch-22 situation, Dennis would have never been in the position to make a solo record if he wasn't in The Beach Boys but after the credibility killing 15 Big Ones and the wacky commercial disaster of Love You few were going to take a BB solo record all that seriously. Imagine if Dennis had got an earlier edition of POB out in 1975 - he could have really grabbed that Beach Boys starved Holland era crowd.

I feel the Beach Boys missed out on an opportunity here. Why not have Dennis as the opening act on a Beach Boys tour? Then later do that for Celebration and Carl Wilson. Perhaps Lady Lynda or Santa Anna Winds as singles for Al, etc. I think they could have used the Beach Boys popularity to push all of their solo careers. Brian as well. Then maybe a reunion from time to time. Mid to late 70s would have been a good time to do this to get their solo careers off the ground into the 80s.

Though, I know it's not as simple as that with drugs and the safe (financial) haven of the Beach Boys as a group, etc. But it was a time when the group was braking apart in terms of band direction. 77-78, might have been the best time to use the Beach Boys name to push Brothers rec and their separate projects. Spending a year touring with a few songs by each, followed by a BB set. Setting the stage to the audience for a brake up of the Beach Boys and forth coming solo efforts. Then, down the line, perhaps a reunion or two.

Carl actually talked to Musician magazine about opening for the BB's in 1983, but sadly, it never happened. Wait...I detect a pattern here...alright, which of the BB's pissed all over Carl's solo career?

Well it wasn't Brian or Carl that's for sure.. And there was a official  press release that stated he had left the group. And it was mentioned that Carl wanted more rehersals and new songs played and a new lp recorded.. And when he went on tour he opened for The Doobie Bros + America and played clubs as a headliner.. As it should be.. And when he came back to BB he got all that done.. Whats interesting is in 1983 in between BB gigs carl played at Irvine Meadows in orange county Ca.. He opened for America.. Played a bunch of stuff of off Youngblood..  His new solo lp at the time.. Im not aware of Carl touring solo in 83 except for this gig.. But then again I could be wrong.. Carl was very good that nite..!

So who killed Mike's solo career if it is always somebody/something else's fault?

IMHO.. Whoever in BB had a solo career and it didn't fly the fault would be on them and no one else.. Even if there were obstacles in the way of you no matter where they came from where there"s a will there"s  a way..

Another year, another article on Dennis :

http://sabotagetimes.com/music/dennis-wilson-the-self-destructive-beach-boy-who-was-the-most-talented-of-the-lot

Warning - a few of the same old myths are perpetuated, a well-meaning but not entirely accurate article...

Pet Sounds WITCHCRAFT music.. :angry  Never heard that one..!

I think people using the examples of Mike and Carl having solo careers with no trouble from the band are naive in their thinking that things were the same for them in '78 - '81 as they were for Dennis in 1977. Different worlds. Dennis had POB delivered and ready to go in April '77, he had a three-album deal with CBS/Caribou well before the BB's had their deal, and Dennis as usual deferred to Brian and waited for Beach Boys Love You to run it's course before he released POB. That right there must have been painful. To know you have this killer album you've been slaving over for years complete with a major label ready to release it, but again you have to wait in line for big brother's quirky gem to play out. And when it became apparent Dennis would be the first Beach Boy to go solo, not a pipe dream, but a reality with a big label, a big monetary advance and a lot of people saying this record was beyond the Beach Boys abilities....it is no doubt there were people in the Beach Boys hierarchy that freaked out. Too many people on and off the record making that point, the deeper you go the more pointed these statements become...Dennis caught a backlash from elements within the BB's camp. Many apologists want to deny it with "logic" but the historical trail is there. In fact because this caused such a fracture in the BB's infrastructure it was a result that the path for future BB's solo works were smoothed out by Jerry Schilling an others. Guercio made this point to me, Dennis took the hit, things got smoothed out, Mike and Carl benefited. This is not to say Dennis didn't have a role in sinking his own fortunes, he did, no doubt. But the whole obfuscatory routine of using Mike and Carl's subsequent solo efforts as proof that Dennis in no way was challenged in 1977 is bullshit.

Not to mention that none of the BB member solo albums that were released in the early 80s could've possibly seemed to pose a musical/ego threat to the BBs, in any way shape or form. Mike and Carl's albums are simply not very good and/or unarguably bland/forgettable, and I can't imagine at the time there was more than a tiny bit of buzz (if even that), either within or outside of the BB organization, for the music contained on any of them ("Heaven" excepted).

So BRI some how kept people from buying Dennis' released material?

If (and it can remain an "if" should people remain unconvinced) BRI or forces within helped (even partially) dampen Dennis' fragile ambition to tour, then it would seem a no-brainer to think that the resultant lack of touring for an album would be a factor in keeping people from buying said product (that the tour would be promoting/creating awareness of), no?

I think there are many reason POB wasn't a smash hit, despite the high quality of the material. Despite "a career of 15 years making records, HIT records with the Beach Boys" he was still a "new" artist as a solo act and some people still probably though of him as just the drummer – or clubber – of the group.

Add to that a muddy mix, vocals that could be rough to some people's ears and an unfriendly/unflattering-looking cover photo from a guy who was still pretty good looking in 1977 and there are some definite stumbling blocks.

But a question I have for the group is, did anyone else think they picked the wrong song to be a single. I can understand "River Song," for all its greatness, not being seen as a hit, but I think "You and I" was a bad choice. It's a good song, but I don't think a great one.

To me, "Rainbows" would have been the choice. I think it's a better song, more "radio-friendly" and I think Dennis' vocal was maybe the best one he did on POB.

Hypothetically speaking, does anyone else think that the very best shot that any Dennis solo track had at being a hit single would have been "School Girl"?

When I met Dennis at a record store signing in 1977.. This exact subject came up..Whats the single..? I told him You + I was a great choice ..It was tender like Forever  and Only with you.. So I asked him about 2nd single and I  requested  Rainbows because of its upbeat  nature  and BB  type harmonies ..  He shook his head no and said Ah its just a album track man.. !  He was kind + shy that day  and yet talkative to the right people.. He was basking in his glory of finally releasing  POB.. In a humble way..  Spent a little time later having him sign 75=76=77 tour books..  He was a good guy..!!

Just because CBS Records had that much faith in Dennis, for whatever reason (and record labels were headed at that time by people willing to take risks/losses for the sake of "art"), doesn't mean the public was clamoring for whatever Dennis had to offer. Music needs an audience. POB didn't have any hit singles and I doubt it got much FM radio play. In order to have a tour, you really do need to have an audience. It doesn't matter what the president of the record company thought or the fact they gave him a large advance (which requires being paid back via sales) or that the deal was for three albums. No one in the Beach Boys had the power to get radio stations to not play Dennis's album, so it's not like they had the power to sabotage it. They had no power to get their own albums played. If the Beach Boys lack of success in that era was a drag on his reputation or whether radio stations thought his album or single was playable was a two-edged thing because obviously he got the deal in the first place due to his fame with the Beach Boys. POB doesn't sound like anything that was popular at the time. It doesn't matter if it was good or bad, if it doesn't fit the landscape, it's much harder to get played.

I've only seen maybe 4 or 5 shows mentioned for Carl that summer, so I am guessing that those were the only ones he could fit in between the Beach Boys commitments. I saw him in Seattle that summer, great show, the band was on fire. Only a couple of Beach Boys songs in the set, Darlin' and Long Promised Road, the rest was all stuff from his solo albums, plus a version of Sam & Dave "I Thank You", and a couple songs from Myrna - lovely lady.

Yes; fromm AGD's site, 5 shows only, at the end of June. It appears it would have been October before he could have scheduled another run  of dates to play, and I guess it didn't matter by then? 
>>22 - Parker's, Seattle WA 
24 - Greek Theatre, Los Angeles CA [opening for America]
25 - Greek Theatre, Los Angeles CA [opening for America]
26 - Irvine Meadows Amphitheater, Los Angeles CA [opening for America] 
29 - Old Waldorf Club, San Francisco CA << 
and the setlist as noted on the site: 
>>
Carl Wilson
Old Waldorf, San Francisco, CA
June 29, 1983
This set differed from another Carl Wilson setlist of the same year in that it did not include "Time", but it did include current single "What You Do To Me" and two Myrna Smith solo numbers (titles were unknown to the contributor, but it is assumed that they were "Treat Me Right" and "I'm Not Dreaming", which were featured in a previous concert.)


Main Vocalist:

Carl Wilson


Backup band:

Myrna Smith
Billy Hinsche
John Daly
Gerald Johnson
Alan Krigger

SETLIST
1. Too Early To Tell
2. Darlin'
3. What You Gonna Do About Me?
4. Youngblood
5. Givin' You Up
6. What More Can I Say
7. Long Promised Road
8. Heaven
9. What You Do To Me
10. Treat Me Right (Myrna Smith)
11. I'm Not Dreaming (Myrna Smith)
12. Hold Me
13. The Right Lane
14. Rockin' All Over The World

Encore:
15. I Thank You

Contributed by: Tracy Bryant  <<

Sales weren't an issue as the quarter-million that POB sold beat projections as well as outsold the next couple of Beach Boys LP's. We're talking about the proposed tour in this thread...go up there and read my man...and whether an ultimatum came DW's way via BB's channels. I'm confident that it did because too many insiders have recounted this incident to me for it to be false.

Hey bgas I have a problem with the musicians listed for 1983 CW dates.. The musicians listed for that date appear to be from the 1981 tour.. At Irvine the 26th there was CW.. Myrna .. Billy.. Alan Krigger..  Plus 2 other guys one on bass + one on guitar.. They were younger + dressed much different than rest of the band.. Shag hair cuts + loud clothes.. And they were both WHITE.. Gerald Johnson is black + John Daly was an older guy like the rest of CW band 81..   I say this with all sincerity .. I was there so Carl + Myrna are gone so its up to Billy Or Alan to tell us who they were.. CW did intro them but ive forgotten the names over time.. Gerald + John were not there at Irvine which is orange county.. THX

It must have been great meeting Dennis. Everyone's "album tracks" should be as good as Rainbows.  :)

Thank You.. I grew up in the right time period and grew up in southern California so I am lucky.. I have a friend of mine meet Brian on ventura  blvd  in Studio city just  walkin down the street with a friend  in their jogging outfits.. So the 2 had been workin out and my friend Galen bumped right into them on the street.. It does happen out here.. I once in 1985 got in a elevator  with Kenny Rogers Lionel Ritchie + Ritchie"s wife..  If walls could talk oh my.. Lets just say Lionel + his wife weren't getting along..!!   It happens  LOL

I have some pics from the Seattle show that my girlfriend took. Wish I had a scanner, but I will post them someday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKImbTWSG-w

I don't know who is saying what about the band's or band management's supposed ultimatum but the fact that Dennis was allowed to do anything about his solo in connection with any Beach Boys' concerts seems to contradict the band being non-supportive. It sounds to me so far that the solo tour problem was on and between Dennis and the label since the BBs had already allowed his solo act to happen at their concerts to some extent.

POB did much better than MIU and about the same as LA but much worse than SU, H, 15BO, LY before and KTSA, TBB after. Dennis' single apparently didn't do much/anything while the BBs were still managing to hit the Top 40.

I'm having trouble believing the band was out to squash Dennis' solo career.

I wonder about the whole 'sabotage because of jealousy' angle (at least from a musical perspective). Because that would involve certain band members admitting to themselves that recent BB albums were not up to par. In Mike's mind did he honestly think that POB was much better than the songs he and Brian had just cooked up for the MIU album?

Nice call.

Yet I can't really agree on the 'muddy mix' issue. Muddy, to these ears, is what mars for instance the Heartbreakers' 'LAMF' LP, it was done by John 'Speedy' Keen, and it stands as perhaps the worst mix ever in the entire history of rock music. But in Dennis' case, if you take 'Farewell My Friend', or 'You And I', I can only say these sound clear to me. Perhaps Dennis' vocals create the impression of 'muddiness', might be.

The album had a couple of female reviewers, in Holland, way back then. Without an exception, they found Denny to sound utterly, utterly sexy, erotic. Surely not 'unattractive'.

What grated yours truly a bit about the cover shot was that it was simply not sharp. For the rest you saw a handsome, earnest-looking man.

But still, I like your call.

Just want to say how much I am enjoying this thread and appreciate Ed and Jon weighing in with their unique perspectives.  Fascinating look into Dennis and the band circa 1977. 

Would love to one day hear those Pacific Ocean Blue rehearsal sessions.

And would gladly purchase a deluxe edition re-release of the Pacific Ocean Blue/Bambu Legacy package with a third disc of live rehearsals. 

Hey Lonley Summer take a look at the pics and see if there is a left handed black bass player Gerald Johnson.. John Daly would be the other guy and he was taller than anybody else in the band and same age as Carl + Billy or older with dark hair.. The show I saw they weren't there in 83 and I find it hard to believe Carl would replace 2 band members for ONE gig.. The 2 guys I saw were younger than everyone else and were dressed slightly Hollywood 80"s rockers style..  Let us know please

Definitely no left-handed bass player, the two guys are as you described. Maybe I can get over to Fed Ex in the next week or so and scan a couple of the pics.

Thank You Lonely Summer for you help.. Please continue with what you are doing so we can clear up this small  matter..  ;D

Yes Jon and Ed, thank you for the tantalizing info, perhaps Guercio can be persuaded to return his attention to the planned Legacy POB follow-up (although unfortunately the most propitious moment may have passed) now that "The Drummer" has fallen through, if enough buzz can be generated here (such is the limitless power of the mighty SS message board LOL).

I believe I read that the Denny biopic has been cancelled entirely.

I hope I didn't miss this somewhere in the thread. Does Jim Guercio need permission from the current BRI members to release the rehearsal tapes? Does Brian, Al, Mike, and Carl's estate need to sign off on it's release? I assume the answer is no but I'm not sure.  Just wondering if there will be road blocks in getting the rehearsal tapes released.

I presume this is the guys you mention in this Youtibe video?  


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSBji0_Zo4

All of Carl's solo gigs are mentioned in the book Jon Stebbins and I wrote-The Beach Boys In Concert (with a nice color photo by Ed Roach taken at the 1981 Roxy show)

Unfortunately-I can't help here-I have a few interviews Carl did to promote his second album but he didn't mention by name who he'd have in his band.  The 83 shows didn't attract as much media attention.  I do have a review of one of the shows with America-but is just mentions Carl, Billy and Myrna by name.

Dennis Wilson's grandson, Dennis Wilson, was born on the 30th anniversary of his death. Spooky.

OK-Got some info from Billy Hinsche:  the two new musicians on that 1983 Carl Wilson tour were: Geo Connor (guitar), Michael Vila (bass). Now that he told me that-I went and looked at Billy's excellent liner notes for Youngblood and see the names listed there too!

I have an interview promoting Youngblood, which mentions bassist Michael Vila and guitarist Eric Turner. Eric is also mentioned by name in this article, Free Rock Concert slated for Friday:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=943&dat=19860326&id=_yAPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=a4MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4540,2726646 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=943&dat=19860326&id=_yAPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=a4MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4540,2726646)


References

Carl Wilson cuts loose and takes charge on new solo LP, by Mark Mehler

Elliot Randall { Steely Dan } Neil Stubbenhouse { Larry Carlton } aren't on the video.. The guitar player next to Billy and the bass player red shirt were at Irvine Meadows 1983 yes looks right.. Guitar player far right of the screen wasn't on stage + I don't know who he is ..So yea were close to solving the mystery.. Thanks bgas!!

Well glad we solved the mystery+ we were posting the same time.. :lol   Thanks to bgas + Ian for help on that.. Lonely summer has some pics that he took from that show 1983 and is gonna upload them on here..  Well that was fun..  :happydance

Here are the key quotes from the RS article (The Beach Boys - No More Fun Fun Fun, John Swenson – Rolling Stone Magazine 10/20/77)

- (Dennis) said something to Al Jardine, the white cowboy suited Beach Boy who was still wearing his ten-gallon hat. Jardine turned on Dennis with controlled fury. "We don't need you." he said. "We can make it without you.

- "You got into this band on Brian Wilson's coattails!" Stan Love screamed as he towered over the others, gesticulating wildly, the veins in his neck bulging. "You've been riding on his coattails! I'm the one that's brought him around. I'm the one that keeps him from walking out in front of buses. And you're gonna quit on us after all that?"

- Back in the car I could still hear Stan Love screaming at Dennis that he was riding on Brian's coattails. He must have said it twenty times.

- "What's today's date?" he asked. "September 3rd? I'll remember it. The Beach Boys broke up on Al Jardine's birthday." We sat in silence for a few minutes, silence broken by Karen's indignation at the way she and her husband had been treated. "It was Al Jardine who really knifed me in the heart," Dennis responded, "when he said they didn't need me. That was the clincher. And all I told him was that he couldn't play more than four chords."

Please can someone post a link to the interview!

You mean like this? http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6867.msg110359.html#msg110359 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6867.msg110359.html#msg110359)

Thanks!

This is what I was referring to earlier in the thread, what happened that night really sucked    >:(

Um, don't people usually say bitter things after someone quits a band?  It's the old, "You can't quit! You're FIRED!" I never got the double standard where everything that Brian and/or Dennis Wilson would do was mostly okay, but not the other Beach Boys. Al Jardine is a basically decent guy, as is Carl Wilson, yet they often get trashed almost as much as Mike does.

Yeah, a bunch of rich dudes standing around having a bitch-fight in front of a private jet after playing a major venue really does suck.

 :brow  Sure wish I would have written  the above post..

Agreed.

What's intersting, and what I had forgotten in the many years since I'd last read that article, is that Stan yells at Dennis for wanting to LEAVE the band...like, "Oh great, now you're quitting on us! You quitter!"  And Al's remark is also apparently in response to Dennis' threat to leaave...like, "OK fine, you wanna leave? Well go ahead, we can do this without you."  (note, these are deliberate paraphrases on my part, not deliberate misquotes) :)

Same here. Also I did not remember that Dennis seems to be saying he fired the first shot [at Al].

Well...I think it's pretty obvious what is going on here is that Dennis and Carl are suddenly being outvoted on everything. The Wilson's (first Murry...then BW, CW, DW) had basically been in control of the Beach Boys business and creative choices since the beginning. CW/DW had been relatively in control since Brian stopped caring ('68ish). That's not to say that the others didn't have input, they had plenty...but when it came down to the bottom line it was always the Wilsons in control. It was at this point (mid '77) that instead of deferring to his brothers Brian's vote was essentially given to Mike (reportedly by Marilyn). I was told by both Schilling and Guercio that Dennis and Carl felt their only leverage was to either adhere to the Love's control or threaten to leave the group unless the balance of power was restored to the Wilson bros. or at least a 50/50 type split. But they were suddenly getting overruled 3 to 2 on everything. And when they said this is not acceptable to their surprise they were told..."Go ahead and quit, we'll replace you...no problem." And it's Brian's lack of action on their part that Carl alludes to as the underlying problem.

Carl's quote...
Carl replied, "He (Dennis) knew more about it than I did. When I found out what he knew, I realized it was over. I can't tell you exactly why because of legal problems. But when I heard about what they were planning to do, the replacements they were planning to bring in for us. I heard Buddy Miles mentioned as a possible replacement for Dennis, and I suppose they felt they didn't need to replace me with another guitarist. Brian could have realized what was going on and done something about it." He didn't elaborate, but since all of the band's decisions are made by a five-man vote, he may have been referring to Brian's swing vote. It really didn't seem as though they were heading for their last concert. I asked Carl if he felt anything. special. "I feel incredibly sad," he said, Shaking his head. "My heart is broken."

I honestly think that in Aug/Sept '77 Carl and Dennis felt that the Love camp had in a sense kidnapped their brother and as long as they had him in their "possession" they didn't need the other Wilsons to hold on to the Beach Boys mantle. This was an incredible shock to the brothers. As time went on they took two different approaches to handling the fact that things would never be the same. Carl at first went off the rails, then he cleaned up, left the group, went solo, came back and went with the flow from there on. Dennis resisted as much as possible, went off the rails and never really came back. By '79 he was essentially done fighting for the upper hand ...but he needed a job so he hung in there as a drummer, for awhile, sometimes.

Clearly there is a disagreement in the band but my reread is it was mostly a thing between the "siblings" with Brian on one side and Carl and Dennis on the other [with a Stan Love/Dennis/Jardine sideshow]. Apparently Brian's vote was under his own control as Dennis says it was settled when Brian did not use his vote. Presumably creating a tie, if Al was a full voting member at the time [don't remember the dates for Al].

This is the first thing I have read that finally helps me understand how Carl went off the rails in 77/78. Dennis, well, I sort of had a sense of that before, it seemed like he was gonna self destruct at some point anyway, but Carl had always been Mr. Stability. What a blow to both of them. Thank you for sharing, Mr. Stebbins.

So, it was evil Marilyn Wilson in cahoots with the evil Loves.  And the evil Al Jardine. And Carl decided to take heroin and drink more due to it all, and Dennis became a substance abuser, leading to his drowning. 

So basically this gave Dennis the ammo he needed to destroy himself.

It's really too bad he wasn't just a little more together, or he could have just left and had a solo career. He was completely wasting his time with the Beach Boys anyway. Brian was too messed up at that point to do much as an artist and the rest of the guys were not prolific songwriters. He needed to just quit the band, but of course he wanted to live a self-indulgent rock star lifestyle.

Subtle

 :thud

I think it is questionable whether he really wanted to live a self-indulgent rock star lifestyle. 'Wanting' implies a deliberate choice of the one over the other (or several others). My idea is that Dennis' was enormously troubled by his childhood; it's not too much to call that childhood traumatic. People who are traumatized need to come to terms with what happened; to grief and mourn over that, and to accept it as part of their life, eventually. I would say that goes for all three Wilson brothers, in fact. And I doubt whether Denny ever was able to do that.

And he had been an addict, from a fairly young age onwards, if I am to believe the stories. Perhaps he had what we now call ADHD, that was not really diagnosed way back then. He was a poly-drug user, IIRC chain-smoking, drinking, and later also cocaine and even heroin.

With what we know nowadays about addiction: he had much less of a choice that is commonly assumed in these matters. Longterm addicts have several changes in their brains, changes that may last very long, for years, even in longtime abstinence (hence the considerable risk for relapse in addicts who abstain). These changes have nothing to do with the bad effects of physical withdrawal. The latter can, with proper help, be achieved in a week (mostly a sedative is given for a week, to quench those bad effects and the general sickness of it).

The changes I mean occur in the so-called 'reward centers' in the brain; areas where drugs (but also food and sex) cause an increase in levels of the messenger molecule dopamine.

But recent findings go further: in our 'prefrontal cortex' there are also changes, serious ones. These occur in areas that deal with: estimating what outcome our actions will have, predicting what kinds of pleasure/reward we may expect from actions, and also: estimating what risks are involved in the things we plan to do. There is more, but this will suffice here.

Longtime addicts have developed this problem: in them, in that prefrontal cortex, a balance has been seriously disturbed. It is the balance that is necessary to choose between short-term and long-term gratification (reward). Short-term gratification is grossly overvalued (even if the actual reward is not that big); and the addict has a very hard time to form a picture of what kind of satisfaction long-term gratification will bring (e.g. doing an oil painting, or working hard at a loving and lasting relationship).

That is why the best experts in the field nowadays make a strong case for calling addiction: a serious illness, and absolutely are against moralizing in terms of: the addict lacks character, will power, is weak (and so on and so forth). And that is why they also are against criminalising the use of drugs (although addicts may resort to transgressions to procure drugs).

In brief: the addict's choices are much more limited than we may think; he or she lacks the capacity to even make a balanced choice.

What could Denny have done, then? He would have had to accept the gravity of his situation; and then surrender totally to the care and control of an expert team of doctors and therapists. In a clinic, on a 24/7 basis, for a long time.

(...and I don't mean the Landy way of treatment).

Perhaps he simply was not able any more to do just that.

Kurosawa, please don't see this as any harsh criticism. I just wanted to add some insights that I recently came across in my studies.

And to all: if I made factual errors, you are invited to rectify these, needless to say.

Jon, even if this explains Carl's and Dennis' attitude at the time, how does this explain Carl's "go with the flow" attitude of later times? ... Unless the explanation is that he did not want to fight. Wasn't the political situation inside the band totally different? Wasn't the Mike-Al camp weaker or non-extant by the mid 80s? And wasn't Brian pursuing an agenda of his own (or Landy's, who had no trouble antagonizing the rest of the world)? Wasn't the 1985 album Carl's baby in a way?

Anyway, my take is that if this tarmac episode explains the attitudes Carl and Dennis took, this does so for a limited term. It is not entirely clear to me how the ramifications of this era of family bitterness (including a number of "family secrets" being unveiled, like the fact that Brian let Dennis into the band only at Audrey's request) remained 10 years later or so.

It's just a fork in the road that marks the point when the Wilsons lost the dominant hand they'd enjoyed from the band's beginning through the mid '70's.

The fans could also tell from the stage show becoming tacky with ML's gimmicks  from 1978-1998.

So, this has sat for a while but I've been waiting to hear if there has been any word from the Jim Guercio camp regarding the POB tour rehearsal tapes?

No

Jon I was going to ask you what you thought the chance are that we will ever see their release but that's unfair to you.

I'll just keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks for the update!

I haven't talked to Jimmy Guercio in a good while so it's hard to gauge his current interest in a new DW package. I know there is a Caribou film project he's focused on among other things. I also know he loves Dennis' material and would like to see it get it's due. But I can relate to having too many projects in the queue, and I think that's probably the case right now.

Old post and I don't know how I missed it, but no, I do not take your response as criticism, harsh or otherwise and I would agree with your assessment. My statement was in error.  I do understand that a lot of Denny's self-destructive behavior was due to addictions beyond his control; if he hadn't drowned in 1983, I seriously doubt he would have survived the 80's without major changes in his life. And those changes are ones that I highly doubt could have ever come.

He can give a license to Rhino, Sundazed or another label to take care of it and make some Dennis's relesses with The POB rehearsal tapes and studio material. If any label would do it, it would be great to see it.

Collector's Choice Music might be an option, too. They do over 50 re-releases a year. They say they listen to customer requests, so people who want to hear this can e-mail Collector's Choice and make them aware it exists and maybe they can figure out how to get it out.

Although it would truly be a limited edition collection I'd like to see Rhino Handmade take on the job. They would give the music, notes and packaging some justice. Always a great job by those guys and girls who put those releases together. Maybe the next step is a complete collected works by Dennis including those live rehearsal tracks. I'll bet Rhino Handmade would be glad to take that on with Jim Guercio's approval. They did the Chicago LIVE in'75 box, didn't they?