The Smiley Smile Message Board

I find it odd that even though Mike and Denny couldn't stand each other 90% of the time you'd find them standing next each other in a picture or on stage.  Is it the whole deal with keep your friends close and your enemies closer or what?  I mean I know that they loved each other but I'm just curious.  I haven't read any books about them yet up to this point but that'll change in a few hours from now  ;D.  I'm anxious to finding out more about their relationship. for anyone who read the new book could you give me a sneak preview of what to expect?

Which new book?
They had a lot in common back in the day, I believe- surfed, cruised, and tried picking up ladies together.

That's all I can think of except their collaboration throughout the 70s

I don't think their "hating each other period" really was any sort of a reality until maybe the last few years of Dennis' life. Until then it was probably a mutual love of being Beach Boys, family respect/love even with all the drama, and some healthy competition by two guys who thought they were both the hot guys in the band ;P

I imagine it was like most families where one is self destructive and the rest don't want them to self destruct. Very complicated and frustrated.

I think that Mike loved the whole "Beach Boys thing" so much - the recording, the touring, the money, the women, the status - that he would do everything possible to keep it going, which included putting up with a lot of sh-- for a lot of years.

Yes, Mike himself contributed to some of the group's problems. But, it must've been incredibly frustrating and painful to be in a group/band with Dennis and Brian Wilson. I think it came to a breaking point, which was after the Beach Boys got a second chance, a second life, with Endless Summer, and proceeded to blow it - again. I think that Mike finally had enough and started to take more of a stand against certain behaviors, at least when those behaviors affected The Beach Boys.

Dennis became dysfunctional at some point, and a drag on the show.  I attended a show where he came out on stage drunk and acted like a buffoon.  It would have been better if he had been fired earlier.  No one who likes to work wants to be around a drunk or an addict.

I agree 100% with Sheriff John Stone.. His post said it all, especially  if anyone here has ever been in a band you would understand ..

Would it be fair to say that as the '70s went on, Dennis came to blame Mike more and more for the band’s post-Holland artistic stagnation, and for their artistic growth slowing to a halt post-Holland?  Obviously, there were in fact many factors and culprits beyond Mike, but I’d imagine that Dennis began to view Mike in a “villain” light, and to epitomize most everything that was wrong with the band, even if this was an oversimplified view. I can’t imagine all the drugs/booze were helping Dennis see the full situation in a fully nuanced/clear light. This is just my outside observation/hunch.

As much as Mike surely felt that Dennis’ awful behaviors brought on by his addictions were helping the band to blow their 2nd chance at success, I imagine that Dennis was simultaneously feeling that Mike was the biggest reason (and cheerleader for) the band artistically regressing to aping their past sounds/musical styles... and the band's artistic regression is a factor which I believe helped lead Denny to be very depressed (and further self-destructive).  Ultimately, I think that both men grew to be very upset and deeply, deeply resentful of each other for those opposing factors.

IMO, it would seem to me that the growing disdain between the two of them, and the further degradation of their relationship, was largely based on those non- compatible views they had about those 2 particular issues. Still, they were family, and it would seem (from photographic evidence from the late 70s/early 80s, for whatever can be derived from the pictures) that the two men still tried to be cool to each other, and to love each other in whatever ways they could in that situation, even if they still eventually wound up at each others’ throats.

One thing seems sure: if they hadn’t been related, I can’t imagine either Dennis or Mike tolerating the other as bandmates for as long as they did. If Al Jardine had been the hunky sex symbol of the band, he'd still surely have been kicked out of the band much sooner if he had gone down the Denny route. Seems to me that Denny being related wound up inadvertently leading his bandmates to become enablers, by giving him too many second chances to get clean. So sad.

Hold on here!  Dennis and Mike did not hate each other when there were kids and when they got holder they went Surfin and formed the Beach Boys then in the late 70's then they hated each other after that

Yea from what I gather I feel that Mike, Al and Bruce were morally right, but the Wilson brothers musically were right.  Denny wasn't taken seriously when he started to fill in Brian's shoes and  the jealousy that came with that ( the dumb blonde heart throb surfer boy is now the new key song writer and now movie star)didn't help matters either.  I wish that Denny had been more self confident with his own music as much as he was with getting the girls :(

Oh the book I was referring to was "The Beach Boys In Concert"  :)

Reading that book will give you a very good look into how the relationship between Mike and Dennis evolved through the years. You'll (hopefully) get a fair understanding of how they grew apart philosophically (and emotionally), but how they also remained connected as family members and business partners... it's complicated, but reading about it in a year by year chronology gives some essential perspective and context.

thanks everyone and Mr. Stebbins I can't wait to read it and I'm glad I caught because I wanted to ask if Denny sang harmony on "I'll Be Home For Christmas"?  i'ts my favorite Christmas song on their album.  :) and this time I swear I won't post that question again  :lol I'm annoying myself.

LOL. Wish I could answer that question for you retro, but I honestly don't know.  Anyhow, I hope everyone here has a Merry Christmas.

  Dennis's first wife had previously dated Mike. Dennis had a fling with one of Mike's wives. None of that stuff helped the relationship I'd guess.

Ooh wow I never new about that....LOL that alone shows there WAS No competition!  how could mike think of himself as the stud, he looked like an old man when he was 20 lol

Plus... Dennis married Mike's illegitimate daughter.

 By which time an already tattered relationship was hanging by the last thread. Not a great move by Dennis from any angle really.

 Dennis seemed to hold Mike most responsible for albums like MIU and KEEPIN' THE SUMMER ALIVE, sessions for which he was generally MIA. Although well represented on LA, I doubt Mike and Dennis had any involvement with each other's sessions by that time. Any projected new Beach Boys records circa 1981-83 would have likely kept Dennis at arms length, although a tune as good as "Love Remember Me" might have been welcomed by the rest of the band.

 As for Mike, why in the heck didn't "Goin' to the Beach" make the cut for KTSA?? Better than at least 60% of that album in my view.

I'm guessing the producer said "no".

Excellent point.

Was it ever shown she was Mike's child beyond having sympathetic blood type?

Shawn Love certainly looked a hell of a lot like Mike. Not that looking like someone means for sure they are related, but it would be very surprising to me if they weren't father/daughter. Kind of like the young lady who in recent years emerged as Denny's youngest daughter. Strong family resemblance with the Wilsons (and their kids) and the Loves (and their kids). Modern DNA tests would certainly have answered the question.

Did the Mike-Shawn paternity issue just get swept under the rug and never acknowledged/dealt with after she married Dennis? Not that it's exactly the public's business... but we are curious BB superfans.

Mike has always been adamant that Shawn was not his daughter right?  With that in mind, although it may be naive, one would wonder why Mike would have had any issue with the Dennis/Shawn marriage.

 You trying to tell me Mike couldn't overrule Bruce?

 When Mike says  "Jump!" Bruce replies "Might as well."

Dennis did it for the mega lolz.

look mike ive impreganted ur doughter lol

 :lol

The BBs saga is unfortunately a soap opera with no parallel in rock history that I can think of. It's literally like watching the original series of Dallas, with wheeling, dealing, backstabbing, cheating, tragedy, mindgames, facepalms, etc. etc. to a degree that you only thought The Ewing/Barnes families could actually achieve.  Sometimes, you gotta wonder if soap operas like Dallas actually looked to the BBs for story inspiration.  ::)

But... we have the music, and we love The BBs.

There really should be a TV series following the Beach Boys. It can start really happy and positively, but as the first season goes on, things would get darker. The season finale would be David dramatically taking his leave, with the rest of the BBs wondering what to do, ending with giving 'that guy with the teeth' a call. Season 2 would start with them playing with him on stage in Britain.
By the time we get to the weird incest stuff, there would have been atleast 5 seasons of insanity to prepare us.

That. Would. Be. AWESOME!!!!!  ;D that could make up for them not having their own cartoon back in the day and now that the Drummer Movie is on hold :(

Which one is laudable a) I knocked up my underage second cousin b) I knocked up my underage  supposed second cousin c) I knocked up an underage non-cousin?

that's a tough one :lol as much as I love Denny that was really low down.  but like some have said, how come all of a sudden Mike took an interest?  he can take an interest with that but I heard he wasn't there for her when he found out she had been sick...that was low down too.  here's another thing, I haven't read the original "The Real Beach Boy" book yet (still waiting for the rerelease) and I'm not even done with the one I just got (so far so great). I'm on 1974 and haven't really gotten to the Denny vs. Mike stuff yet but I don't understand how Denny could have no problem beating up mike love but he couldn't beat up mike's little brothers.  did he ever get revenge for them kicking him in the throat, because they ruined some stellar vocal chords there (tics me off  >:()  or is there more to that story than I already think I know?

Fair enough. Now what is Mike's excuse?

Yea who's bright idea was it to have Mike  :old and Bruce Johnston  8o go on nation wide t.v. (well Full House) and give Dennis' best "released" song  :dennis to John Stamos  :wall (I love Uncle Jesse and his admiration for the band but...) and then try to turn him into the "cousin he never had with Dennis"?  the new version of "Forever" is so over the top.  the wedding version was nice but the music video...don't get me started. :angry

One would think that if there was an issue about this girl's paternity, it would have come up when she was a small child and would have been resolved by a blood test.  Why so much uncertainty about something that the courts deal with all the time.

There was a court case, and the outcome was paternity was probable but not proven.

There you go, there must have been some evidence to indicate that Mike was her father. most importantly, a relationship between Mike and the girl's mother.  And then there's the question almost everyone asks, did she look like Mike Love?

Dennis did struggle.  I, too, saw him "compromised." There is greater knowledge, information, treatment and tolerance for those who are challenged in this way, now. 

As far as "Forever" being promoted and marketed by someone who had over a million YouTube hits for Forever, I'm not arguing with success. It was sort of a side B song for many years until Stamos made it explode in the mainstream.  It is a nice song, but I love the passion he sang, "You are so Beautiful" with.   

Taking a b-side (my take) and getting it popularized is fantastic, and decades after-the-fact.   I like Stamos' approach to getting the BB music to another generation, and never argue with success.  He took a risk, professionally, to do it, as well.  And the song won.  And the resurgence of popularity with a younger audience happened.  All good, in my book.   ;)

Which I assume basically means that Mike didn't submit a DNA sample so they had to compare it to a relatives DNA sample.

yea you have a point I just wish that it had been either Carl or Brian to give it to him instead those two morons  :old 8o

ooh here's another one to think about...if Denny was the cousin and Mike was the Wilson brother, would our opinions for them change as in Denny's a jerk and Mike is awesome? or would it actually get worse, because Denny supported Brian 110% and if Mike was Brian's brother, wouldn't the jealousy be even greater?  :-\

IIRC, Carl and Brian both appeared on Full House.  It was on Sunflower. And, as a single, flip side of Cool, Cool Water.  Maybe it should have been the A-side.  Carl did it live a lot after Dennis died.  If I had to guess, Carl and Brian might have been delighted to have anyone promote it, keeping a spark of their brother alive, especially with a new generation, but it was a BRI release (Reprise) and of course on the C50 setlist.  Mike and Bruce are no morons.  I have no idea who "gave it" but looks like it is under the BRI umbrella.  Andrew might know more about this.  Otherwise it is just conjecture.

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Kind of like the young lady who in recent years emerged as Denny's youngest daughter. Strong family resemblance with the Wilsons (and their kids) and the Loves (and their kids).
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LOL ! Couldn't be too long before THAT subject reared its head again !

(http://img7.bdbphotos.com/images/huge/e/r/erpseg2kh61wewpe.jpg?kj8as6ye)

Not sure I see Mike in her face?

If anything, I'd say it's in the eyes.

They're cold. Like a dolls eyes.

The girl in that photo looks like a child.

I'm not sure a DNA test for paternity was available in the early 1980's when this issue came up.

did Denny do this more out of spite than love or the other way around?  :-\

If you ask me it started in spite & turned into love but I wasn't there at the time!

yea me either of course but of all the girls that wanted him, even though at that point he looked older than Mike, (he was still Denny) I don't see why he would fall for her.  :brow And with all the arguments they had I'm not surprised "she is her father's daughter"  :-\ maybe...

It seems pretty reprehensible for DW to have gotten involved with her, but then again Dennis Wilson had little to no morals.  This is the same guy that messed around with Manson's women.  I have a growing appreciation for DW as a songwriter and singer, but he's the same old Hollywood story with a bad ending in his personal life, sleeping with endless women, booze and drugs. 

I feel bad for his wives especially Barbara; you could tell he really loved her but at the same time, I don't see how he could cheat on someone like her, then again I wonder if she knew about it.  In Billy Hinche's "On the Road With The Beach Boys" film Denny was on the plane talking to al jardine about Barbara going out with some other guy and he was mad cuz he had no control over it.  I wonder if that was after the divorce or not.

Apologies if this is something everyone knows but I'm intrigued by what is going on at the end of Knebworth's Surfer Girl.  Dennis has spent the song needling Mike by cosying up to him, and Mike has been turning away and trying to ignore it, but at the end of the song Carl seems furious and lunges across the stage towards Mike, only to be grabbed by Dennis and pulled into a bow.  What was that about?  Was Carl feeling protective towards Dennis and resenting Mike ignoring him or what? That bit of film footage shows a very uncomfortable dynamic between Mike and Dennis but I can't see anything that would make Carl quite so angry. 

To me, it looked like Mike was smiling about it. Maybe there was tension there. Maybe Carl was making sure an altercation didn't occur. But to me, it looked like they were having fun.

Dennis & Barbara divorced August 1974. The tour footage was shot April/May the same year.

oh...I see...so they were both cheating on each other...well in both cases it's wrong but he had it coming  ::)

 Barbara is my favorite of Dennis's wives. Diane was attractive.

yea it was clear that she was the best thing that ever happened to him it's too bad he ended up remarrying Karen of all people and not her  :(