The Smiley Smile Message Board

Having been on a big Phil Spector kick lately, something occurred to me that I’m sure has crossed some other peoples’ minds.

When Phil abruptly “retired” in 1966 after the US chart failure of River Deep, Mountain High, he also had a slew of unreleased (and super amazing) songs recorded around that time which went unreleased. It seems that he kept these songs unreleased due to fear of failure (maybe specifically due to the winds of change sweeping the pop music landscape), and of course as a sickly demented method to keep Ronnie Spector down, and under his thumb.

What I wonder is, if Brian (being probably the biggest Spector fanboy in pop music at the time) wound up subconsciously copying some of Phil’s actions with the non-release of SMiLE? Of course there were many other factors involved (which have been discussed ad nauseam), but it’s just too much of a coincidence to me that Brian’s musical hero became a recluse in ’66 and dramatically scaled back his productivity (and kept great recordings unreleased), and that Brian did a similar pattern soon thereafter.

Much like Brian’s pattern of following others around him by example (staying in bed when depressed, just like Murry), I venture to guess that BW (who felt his music was aligned with the Spector style, to a degree) also sadly went along with copying this type of behavior when BW’s decline started in ’67. IMHO, I feel that Phil’s actions contributed another nail in the coffin of BW feeling his huge production/echo chamber/orchestrated music style was now “dated” and not worth pursuing anymore.

I just wonder, if Spector hadn’t thrown in the towel when he did in 1966, in the manner that he did, and kept making music/pushing forward, would that have changed the trajectory of Brian’s actions (even a little bit) around that time?

The Wall of Sound production style didn't go out of fashion because Spector threw in the towel -- he threw in the towel because the style went out of fashion first. And not just the production style -- the entire manner of putting out records was changing. Using Brill Building songwriters and Wrecking Crew musicians was beginning to seem archaic by '66, when bands were expected more and more to write their own material and play all their own instruments.

And Brian was amazingly productive post-SMiLE, writing and producing 3 albums within the year. True, he then became a little lost trying to find his way in the pop scene after '68, but so did lots of other formerly successful writers, producers, and acts.

I have thought about this topic many times. SOMETHING stopped Brian's motivation, drive, and productivity. Of course you can take your pick from a long, much-discussed list. But, yeah, I've often wondered about the Spector/Brian decline. Spector was more than an influence on Brian; he might've been considered an obsession.

Not to be a jerk, but I think the thread title should be Brian's decline coinciding with Phil Spector's decline.  :police:

The Monkees sold more records than pretty much anyone in '66/'67 and they were doing exactly this. Many of the L.A pop groups were still relying on outside musicians and writers for material.

Yes, that's why I wrote that the this style was beginning to change in '66.

So, let's take the example of the Monkees. Though they were using Brill Building songwriters and Wrecking Crew musicians at 1st, still their sound was stripped down, for the most part. Guitars, bass, drums, maybe organ or piano. Much more British invasion or folk-rock than Spector or Shadow Morton. And by '67 they had taken control of the band, were playing their instruments on their records, and were writing more of their own songs.

Well, OK, but they only played their instruments on one album - after that it was kind of back to the old way (albeit a little bit different this go round!). In '68 you had The Grass Roots, Gary Puckett, and the beginning of the bubblegum/Buddah empire....then there was Bobby Sherman, The Partridge Family after that....and so on. There was/is always a place for outside writers and players in pop music.

I think the main parallel between Spector and Wilson's "decline" was a form of mental illness/insanity - and in BW's case, drug use. Plus, Spector's records in '66 were less commercial. It wasn't like he was making Be My Babys and Then He Kissed Mes all over the place - barring River Deep, but I wouldn't place that one as high on the list as many others do.

Sheriff - you are right on about the title - I changed it now :)

I really do think that Brian's obsession with Spector, and Spector's decline was at least a partial factor in Brian sort of "giving up" and shelving SMiLE (and subsequent personal decline).

It wasn't until the non-release of SMiLE that Brian really started shelving nearly finished works of incredible beauty. Or at least works that would otherwise be "releasable", that he'd worked so very hard composing.  Granted, there were BB outtakes from the early days, but nothing of such obvious magnitude and significance.

Granted, BW still did some increasingly sporadic output in the next few years, which I see as being something that he was coaxed into - had he been as isolated as Spector was without a family support system and friends who depended on him, I have a hunch we'd have seen far less BW output in the late '60s-early '70s.

I'm certain that BW latched onto the (admittedly beautiful) insanity that was present in Spector's work. It's just so obsessively beautiful, and buried within Spector's music, Brian surely heard some of that shared pain from abusive childhoods that the two (otherwise very different) men shared. Both PS and BW took their pain and funneled it into mindblowingly incredibly beautiful music as an escape.

In '66-'67, did the world at large (and more specifically, Brian) know that Spector had some super amazing completed tracks just sitting in the can, not being released? (Songs like "Paradise" and "This Could Be the Night"?) Was this common knowledge, or at least "insider" knowledge within the music scene? Because I imagine if BW knew, he'd be super frustrated as a fan to not hear songs by his musical idol, but also seemingly it would somehow "legitimize" in BW's mind the idea that a musical genius can in fact just take their best work and hide it away from the world (for what at that point seemed like) until the end of time. And to take that idea further, the more reclusive (and sick) Spector eventually became in the early 70s also coincided with Brian holing up at home and falling deeper into reclusiveness.

Didn't I read something on this board at some point talking about BW trying to get a hold of Spector's unreleased '60s songs on bootleg tapes in the late '70s?

Interesting topic. I've wondered this myself. He definitely looked up to Spector, to the point where "Don't Worry Baby" definitely takes from "Be My Baby" and "Heroes And Villains" most definitely is very, very influenced by the sound of Ike & Tina's "Save The Last Dance For Me".

Brian admitted around the Sunflower era that The Beach Boys turned into more of a democracy because of The Beatles and how well it worked for them (despite Bruce saying in that same interview that he didn't agree, and that Brian was and should continue to be numero uno). And I'm sure he thought that Spector's whole reclusive trip was interesting and made him seem mythological and larger-than-life, so Brian took a page from that. In fact, I'm sure the whole non-performing recluse seed might have been planted in his mind when he quit the road. And then later reinforced when the approved SMiLE artwork had a photo of The Beach Boys without Brian. I don't think that decision was made lightly.

I think what happened was, yes, Brian became more reclusive but he purposely made it so he wasn't on the cover of 20/20 and very rarely at their live shows because of his love of Spector. And he gave up space on the albums somewhat because of The Beatles. I think he enjoyed being "off-limits" to an extent, like when a magazine decided to come visit him to talk about the release of "Surf's Up" in '71. He was supposed to come talk to about it, but instead I think he like intercommed down and gave them a few quotes and then said he was "falling asleep", which likely was a load of garbage. He liked his status to an extent I'm sure. He got attention for stuff like "Surf's Up" and "Sail On, Sailor" and whatever, and he was nowhere to be seen.

Still don't grasp the premise. Spector went MIA from the music scene '66-'69, while Brian was putting out Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends, and contributing to 20/20. This is a "decline"?

If you want to date a decline in Brian, it would be the early 70's, just while Spector was making his Beatles comeback.

Brian's decline - in my opinion - started earlier than the 1970's.

Very early on, Brian became hooked on The Four Freshmen, and he eventually mastered their sound. The rock & roll side of Brian attracted him to Chuck Berry, and he eventually got that sound, too. Finally, Brian's growth as a producer brought him to Phil Spector. With Pet Sounds in 1966, Brian mastered the Wall Of Sound.

However, just months after Pet Sounds, and just months after Spector's retreat, Brian didn't seem as interested in getting that sound anymore. The albums after Pet Sounds that you mentioned - Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends - do not sound Spector-influenced. And that's where I see the coincidence . Specifically, Brian utilized The Wrecking Crew less and less. Was it because Spector used them less and less? Was it just because he had a studio in his house? I'm sure Brian had his reasons for changing the way he made records, or for trying to achieve different sounds. We've discussed them and speculated about them many times. But I really wish Brian would've continued to use The Wrecking Crew consistently from 1967 to whenever. I think he made his best music with them. 

An interesting twist. But Brian's "decline" in the Smile-era was definitely many-faceted -- I don't think you can pin
his choices at that time on one particular thing. He was overwhelmed and he floundered as far as Smile was concerned.

And the decline took course over many years, but Brian was still productive, writing songs like he has done to this day.

Thank goodness the obsession with Spector must've ended or Brian might be carrying heat looking to blow someone's
head off... eh?  ;)

Y'know, I wonder if we're all over-thinking the reasons for Brian's decline/withdrawal. Here's what I mean.
I was profoundly, viscerally, and so sadly struck by that recently posted interview where Brian said his internal voices started when he was around 25. I don't know why in all the decades I've been a fan I've never really considered how non-stop, every-day, every-minute awful that must be. I'm embarrassed at this lack of simple empathy on my part. Imagine having negative voices shouting at you every dark accusation and warning your subconscious can muster, all the time. I'm amazed he functioned at all. He's been suffering with this for decades. Omigod. I feel so bad for him. It no doubt happened all day today, even.

I agree. I certainly can't gloss over the mental illness aspect of things where Brian is concerned.  I can't read this interview and then say he should have just sucked it up and released SMiLE. In his shoes, I would have quit ages before that.

http://abilitymagazine.com/past/brianW/brianw.html

Cyncie,  Thanks for the link.  Man, he is so open.  He seems really relaxed talking about this, and with a Dr. asking some of the questions no less.

True, but they were marketed to give their young target audience a very different impression. Five years earlier they could have just been presented like Fabian or Frankie Avalon, but by 1966 that wouldn't fly - The Beatles had set a new standard for how a pop act was supposed to appear (at least for the white audience), and it had indeed rendered the Phil Spector model obsolete.

I’m a little late in chiming in here. Discussing Brian’s relationship with Spector during the 60s is always interesting. I think it’s overreaching a bit to suggest that Spector’s withdrawel somehow inspired Brian to do the same, consciously or not. It’s an opinion of course, but I have a hard time following that train of thought. Especially since, as others have pointed out, Brian actually was pretty productive even after Phil turned his back on the industry for a while.

My own take is that both simply couldn’t keep up with the vision, pace and ambition of their former selves as they reached the end of the 60s. I think they were burned out, - and Phil perhaps probably even more than Brian since he also had the whole Philles business operation to oversee. That's one thing I actually felt was pretty believably described in Brian's pseudo-autobiography; the stress and constant pressure that being the new boy wonder of the industry entailed back then. It's something Spector has remarked upon also in a few candid moments during interviews. Think about it; both guys broke through only a few years apart, finding incredible success and achieving their goals even in their early 20s. And both did so by working harder than anyone, always reaching for the next pinnacle under a tremendous amount of pressure – from themselves, from those who depended on them, from the business etc. That’s enough to make anyone burn out quickly and want to cool out for a while in order to regain sanity and perspektive! And I think the fact that their peak years were during the same time span explains why both had what the original poster labels a ‘decline’ (in what, you could ask. Commercial succes? Output of great artistic merit? Vision etc? Depends on who’s judging I guess.)

That’s probably only part of the explanation of course; others have brought up drug use, new winds blowing in the business and such.

Main similarity -- both Brian and Spector developed an original producing style and pushed it as far as it could go. I mean, they weren't going to top  SMiLE or 'River Deep, Mountain High', and even if they could, Wrecking Crew pocket symphonies were becoming unfashionable.

Spector would go on to do some good work with John Lennon, but he never truly revived the Wall of Sound.

All Things Must Pass says hi... parts of it are Wall of Sound on steroids.

Awaiting on You All!!!!! 8)

The Ability Magazine interview I would consider Brian's definitive statement on the subject of his mental health. The simple difference between Spector's decline and Brian's is that Brian eventually admitted he needed help, sought it, and followed his psychiatrist's recommendations. The last 15 years are a story of Spector's true decline and Brian's ascendance. Spector is in prison for a crime he committed while mood altered on chemicals, and Brian has sought help and followed a healthy combination of psychotherapy and taking the medications that balance his brain's biochemistry the the best degree that is possible. Because of his mood swings, I tend to believe his condition may be as much familial as  adventitious. As a disability rights advocate for the last 40 years, a parent of a child with a disability, and having a disability myself, the growing awareness of mental health having a parity as far as insurance goes is terrific.   

it seems it wasn't just Brian and Phil, a lot of musicians were "Burnt out" as it were in the late 60's, McCartney stayed in bed for 6 months or something like that, people were dying from drug overdoses, Jan Berry was trying to make records even though he was in a car accident, rock n rollers were all stripping down to doing minimal production and acoustic recordings, folk and country singers were starting to show up more on the scene, it seems like everyone ex-est for a couple years then crashed down so it just seemed like it was just the times..

Affirmative. I especially 2nd the 1st sentence. Brian is Spector's fan - so what? I find it really ridiculous to even suggest that Brian "became" mentally ill because Phil did the same thing. Brian was obsessed with the music, the wall of sound technique & so on, other than that he didn't idolize Spector much, on a character level, or he'd be extremely arrogant & possessed big ego. And also, it's a fact that Brian outdid Phil; what he created sounded more original, just compare Pet Sounds & "the best" Spector works. The arrangements on the latter all sound the same, while Brian went further with experimenting & studio trickery. Even Brian himself confirmed in some interview that he's better.

Of course, no disrespect to you, CenturyDeprived. I thoroughly enjoyed your other topics.

I think Brian needed to feel Spector's competition to spur him on to new heights.

I'm glad you weighed in on this, Peter. Thanks for your input.

RangeRoverA1 - No disrespect felt here :)

However, I wasn't suggesting that BW "became" mentally ill because Phil did; it's more of BW learning/following actions of others by example, particularly (dysfunctional) actions of people that he looked up to as role models, to a certain extent. Similarly, if Murry hadn't been someone who stayed in bed for long periods of time when depressed, would Brian have done the same when he got super depressed? Maybe, but maybe not. Brian is influenced by those around him very much, and it seems (as an outsider) that he always has been.

Phil was undoubtedly a huge role model to BW in terms of music, production, technique, and BW obviously was itching to break out of the BB mold and produce other artists just like Phil (and BW did, even going back to the early days). I would think that Phil recording many songs that were arguably among the best and most progressive of his career in '65-'66 (and not releasing them), and Phil's general disappearance from the scene in some sense "legitimized" BW doing the same. Or at least it may have put the seeds in BW's head to a small extent.  Just IMHO, of course. But these things seem to line up to me.

Keep in mind - when Brian felt he'd been "beat" by The Beatles with their new sound of Strawberry Fields, it was another nail in the coffin that helped extinguish the fire in his belly to truly compete, and keep pushing forward to be the best/most successful, as had been drilled into him by Murry. I also think that Phil's breakdown from moving forward (Phil having himself felt he'd been "beaten" by progressive change within the music industry, or whatever insecurity-related reasons that caused Phil's abrupt 1966 sabbatical from the industry) helped Brian feel that maybe it was time for him to do the same.

I'm sure Brian was keenly aware of most every aspect of Phil's career trajectory (and abrupt withdrawal), and it couldn't have done wonders for Brian's own confidence, when his own role model threw in the towel. It must have been strange for Brian to witness at the time, and I just wonder what went through Brian's head at the time (in 1966) seeing Phil retreating like that. I don't think that he simply brushed it off and made it a 100% non-issue. I think it effected him in some fashion, at the very least on a subconscious level. We can all speculate on how much/how little, but I don't believe that many people can argue that Phil (Brian's biggest idol/influence) throwing in the towel in 1966 had zero effect on Brian, particularly coming at a time when Brian's own confidence was becoming increasingly shaky due to a great many factors.

Does anyone know the answer to the question that I asked in the original post, about if Brian (and/or other industry insiders and friends of Brian) were aware at the time of all these Phil Spector gems being recorded in '65-'66 and hoarded, remaining unreleased? I think I remember someone on this board saying that Brian (or Diane Rovell, working as Brian's assistant) was trying to get a hold of bootleg copies of some of these songs for Brian sometime in the 70s.  The whole idea of Brian feeling his SMiLE songs were "inappropriate" or just "not fit for release" had to have been legitimized to some small extent (IMHO) by watching his idol do the same.
 

1) Did Brian know about Spector's unreleased "gems"? Unknown. Until you get confirmation you're building your thesis on air.

2) If Brian had known, would he have found it noteworthy? Unlikely. Phil wasn't an artist, or really a songwriter, or even just a producer -- he had a record label, and it was common for labels to have unreleased tracks.

3) SMiLE was unfinished because it had grown too complex. Nothing to do with Spector's retirement, IMO.

Brian didn't withdraw, he plowed on full steam, maybe even fuller steam, through 1968 and on through Friends. Also he didn't "retire", his public let him go by not desiring his best anymore. Everybody's time runs out in Pop and that's what happened to Brian. The bad stuff wasn't a cause of that, it was the result of that imo.

Every time i look at the Back to Mono box and see the chronology, just going down the list of songs and looking at the years, i always note how it’s just straight through from 1960 to 1966, the year of Good Vibrations and it going #1 (a record Phil has disparaged), and then it jumps to 1969, the year Brian really went away. Hmm, i always wonder, did Phil feel defeated by the Ike and Tina stuff, which he thought was his best work, not doing as well as he’d hoped (yes, this is known) and feel bitter and resentful that instead an “edit record” by his protege of sorts went straight to #1? Could Brian's success and later disappearance have possibly played any part in Phil's retreating and then his comeback? I realize that sounds like insecure Brian Wilson fanatic talk, but i can’t help wonder. I mean, it had to have been weird for Phil to see this kid who looked up to him take his production style, use the same musicians and studios, and then climb to the top of the charts, reaching his peak just as Phil was "failing" for the first time in his career.

I think it just took Phil a couple of years to get over the failure of River Deep... The guy had both a massive ego while also being incredibly insecure, that's a bad combo for dealing with failure. I think Phil bounced back well with the Checkmates Ltd stuff in '69.

The last four posts are all good thinking, boy we like to speculate.  If you research a bit, you'll find "not releasing" singles and stuff was very common for Phil in the early 60's too.  I was surprised to find that as great as Walking In The Rain is, it only reached #23 (Billboard) in summer '64.  clack and Cam Mott - Right On, I agree.  For some of us Friends is their Best long-player.  monicker and Mike's Beard, interesting time-line info.  He had plenty going on other than music too.  The Ronnie thing.  They adopted three kids beginning in 1966, and were married in '68.  Or as Ronnie put it, accepted her fate as a prisoner (her words).

Does anyone know if Brian has ever commented (or even been asked) by any interviewer about his thoughts on Phil's arrest and subsequent conviction? I can't recall any myself.

Nobody replied to this question of mine, so I thought I'd ask again to see if anyone knows...

Does anyone know if Brian has ever commented (or even been asked) by any interviewer about his thoughts on Phil's arrest and subsequent conviction? I can't recall any myself.

Not that I know of. I've always been curious myself.

I think I remember at the time of the trial he was asked about it and said he didn't believe Spector to be guilty.

I'm not sure I think Spector is guilty. While the circumstantial evidence against Phil is overwhelming (considering his history with guns) the fact remains that the gunshot wound trajectory is much more likely to have been self inflicted and the lack of blood on Phil makes it highly improbable that he could have pulled the trigger at such a close range.