The Smiley Smile Message Board

If what I read on this board is true, and Mike Love is Evil Incarnate, a money grubbing bastard that never cared about the music, why didn't Brian fire him back in 1966?

Because Brian wanted to inflict the evil of Mike Love upon the Earth.

Fire was one the SMiLE album "elements" and SMiLE was not released at the time. Brian released his own version of SMiLE in 2004.

Mike didn't become evil until 1974, when he sold his soul to the devil to make Endless summer a hit.

Or better yet, what if Mike never joined the Beach Boys in the first place?
He could still write the lyrics off-stage, and Al, Carl and Dennis can easily take over Mike's vocals.
Once Brian moves on to Pet Sounds/Smile, Mike wouldn't be needed anymore. Just imagine the great work made without Mike after that!  ;D

Brian wanted to but Charles Manson hit him with a four by two and made him deaf in one ear and the Beach Boys didn't even play their own instruments not on the records any way.

If Mike had never joined the Beach Boys there would be no Beach Boys which would suck, but at least the world would be spared such alleged "fans" as you lot.

Hard question, but short answer is because Mike gave him no reason to.

Pet Sounds and Smile wouldn't be as good without his voice, and from Smiley to Holland he did some very cool work. I could live without much of his work since Holland, but even then something like "It's OK" is great for what it is. Maybe after 1980....nah a breakup was needed period after Carl left.

I can basically agree with what you've said 100%. Mike's voice on Pet Sounds is a big highlight for me - his vocals on Sloop John B. are just perfect. Going onto his early '70s stuff, songs like All I Wanna Do and Big Sur [yes, the SUPERIOR Holland version] only solidify your point further.

BTW, like Brian could just "fire" Mike anyhow?

What do you mean? lol

Are you serious???

Brian formed the Beach Boys WITH Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, Dave due in part to a lot of prodding by both Mike and Al and after sitting for endless hours, days, months, years, harmonizing with Mike and making plans. He also had a ready formed band basically just sitting there for him when he deciced to make some effort. All the guys involvded wante to start a band and get laid and make music, not just Brian.... You don't have to be a genius or Kokomaoist to see this.... Same as if assuming there would be a Beatles if John had never met Paul or George vblah blah blah.

They still could have formed as Brian, Dennis, Carl, Al and David.

Considering the fact that Mike played a huge role in actually getting the band started along with Al and Brian, I'm going to guess "No."

ummm... and also, who would have had the stamina, persona to front the band with corny banter and talk, and lead the band ontstage??

Brian??? I don't think so...... Carl???  Musically yes, but No, Al??..... not likely..... and Bruce?....... ummmm ...'let's go on down to Kokomo..whaaauwww!!'

From 62 onwards, Mikey was the only one who has been 'ON' the most out of all the members

Lucky we had Mikey and his pin cushion/uncomfortable seat yabba..


Rb

What about Dennis?

I guess you and Pinder are right, realistically. But, we can always imagine...

Once again: are you serious???

Who would have played drums? And, there is quite a lot of evidence to suggest Dennis was not the most natural of frontmen. He was nervous, fidgity and slouched. Sure, he could have grown into it, but there was no time for this when they were staring out.

The old Mike thread is still open and you guys want to go here? You're freaking nuts!

He could have played drums at the same time, and he didn't seem too bad as a frontman. There would have been a little bit of time to fully grow into it, we can never underestimate Dennis  :)

Yes again: are you freaking serious???

The Beach Boys in 1962 with no Mike and Dennis singing from behind the drums???? Laughable. We can't underestimate Dennis because he's gone (but by 1983 is was tougher to overestimate him) ..... But what do I know? Other than the fact that The Beach Boys became one of the most legendary bands WITH Mike in the band and as frontman!!!!

You guys should probably really just go stay on the bloo board and put Beautiful Dreamer on in a loop.,

'Keep fishin' if you feel it's true'...

*sigh* This thread was meant to be satire.

Like Mike or not, a group needed a frontman to succeed and even throwing in Bruce, Blondie and Ricky, there is only one person ever who had the gene.

I said Al, Carl and Dennis can share the Mike leads, so it's not just Dennis. Also, there has been plenty of drummers as frontman...

You guys should probably really just go stay on the bloo board and put Beautiful Dreamer on in a loop.,


this is the line of the day quote! love it!    nothing like a bubble world eh?

Rb

Brian didn't fire Michael for one very simple reason - he was a founding member and was vital to the band's sound and live image. Brian is Michael's biggest fan, and vice versa. The two of them have a bond that none of us will ever understand. Blood runs thicker than water. I know that's tough for a certain radical pro-Brian faction on here to take but it's the truth.

just to add fuel to the fire muhahaha  >:D


its 1965..... Brian's working with 'other's'... and not Mikey..... writing, producing, arranging etc

'the boys' go to Japan etc etc and come back as a band on fire......

The guys could have said, 'Brian, we could? do this without you..... there's me Mike, Carl, Al, Denny and we can get Dave back in or Brucie......or both

pick up the game and get on the tour bus with us, or your Out!!


How would that have panned out?........ a lost one or two hit wonder band from the early 60's?

Rb

For the record, the post immediately preceding this did not need its own thread. Stop spamming the board with ridiculous topics that could easily be part of an existing topic.

Ok..... delete it then.... no worries..

Nothing to delete. I merged the threads.

Thanks RBB...

It's just another angle the BB's could have considered..........

but of course BW had something to offer all along, but it could have been another path 'the guys' could have considered.....

also to think, this was pre Pet Sounds and Smile....... and the Brian is a 'genius' persona.....

Rb

From behind the drums?  Until 1966 there were only three drumming "frontmen" (and only one in rock and roll) and one lead singing drummer.  In 1961/62, neither existed in rock and roll.

These early 60's  groups assumed that they would last only 2 or 3 years before they fell out of fashion. Lennon and McCartney, Jagger and Richards were peddling their songs to other artists, preparing for careers as behind-the-scenes songwriters.

Brian, very early on, was writing and producing for other acts. The Beach Boys were for him a stepping stone -- I think he saw them  almost as the Teddy Bears to his Phil Spector. That didn't change until he heard 'Rubber Soul' , I believe, thus giving rise to 'Pet Sounds' and 'Smile". After 'Smile' Brian again pursued (half-heartedly at this point) a career outside the confines of the Beach Boys. He was no longer wholly committed to the band.

So, why didn't Brian fire Mike? Because Mike (like Carl) was more of a Beach Boy than Brian ever was.

The actual mistake was sticking Dennis behind the drums in the first place. They took the only guy they had with sex appeal, and they stuck him behind the drums. Denny should have played a different instrument or just sang, and they should have found a drummer.

They had to have Mike, though. And firing Mike was never an option. If Brian had been a stronger leader, he would have made Mike toe the line when the SMiLE album was being recorded. Mike voiced objections because Brian was a weak leader. If Brian had been a stronger leader, Mike would have done as told. Brian wasn't a strong enough leader, so Mike voiced complaints. Not that Mike's complaints mattered, of course-again the album was never finished because Brian was a weak leader. He got to a point where he couldn't finish things, and he half-assed things a lot. But that's not really his fault, it's just the way his problems affected him.

Brian's greatness is the main reason the Beach Boys are thought of as well as they are. I don't think many people will question that. But his problems are the main reason they declined and are the main reason they are held in slightly lower esteem by most critics to the Beatles, Stones and Who. I disagree with that opinion, but that is the general opinion held by the public-and of course the dbag who runs Rolling Stone magazine didn't help anything.

‍

But Mike did do what he was told, so what's the point? Oh, and they still managed to become a legendary band with Mike in his place, so history is history while speculation is merely that.

At least RS Magazine put Pet Sounds as 2nd greatest album of all-time, and put the Beach Boys in the Top 15 greatest artists of all-time and is actually above Led Zeppelin!

Well, Mike was a debonair lady's man, lookin' for a good time - Brian would put up with a bit of day to day scuttle-butt over a lyric or two in exchange for the chance to go wingman for the Love-machine

So if John Lennon had had a meltdown circa 1966 (well, okay, some might say he did with that "more popular than Jesus" comment...), would the Beatles have stumbled through the rest of the 60's as the lovable moptops, trying desperately to get another hit, and wondering if John will ever get out of bed? Well, okay, it's possible that Paul McCartney really did die in car crash...but his replacement seems to have filled the role very well...Sgt. Pepper was his idea...the medley on Abbey Road was his idea.....

I think that was the perfect role for him at that time. His being the drummer probably added to his cool image and certainly didn't harm the band's appeal in those early years.

It's not so much a radical pro-Brian faction as a radical anti-Mike faction which makes them pro-Brian by default only. I can't grasp why they need a despicable villain. I'd rather have a hypothetical next BBs album composed by Brian than by Mike, but preferrably with input from Mike.

Dennis received 10x more fan mail than any of the other members. Drummers are cool  :P

Yeah, but drum machines keep the beat, don't eat your fridge empty and don't bang your girlfriend! ;D (Old joke)

There's an even simpler reason, and it's the same one which explains why Mike didn't fire anyone post-C50: he couldn't, without the support of his brothers. The band were formally incorporated on 3rd April 1964 as Beach Boys Entertainment Enterprises Inc., with Brian, Carl, Dennis & Mike as directors. As much as he may have wanted to (which was almost certainly - not), "you're out of the band, buckwheat !" was never a solo option.

As clack said Brian did try producing with other people and groups and none of it went anywhere. To me it confirms that as important as Brian was the magic took that particular group and without their "genius" Brian would have been pumping gas at the station across the street from where Mike and Al and Carl and Dennis were pumping gas.

Hhhmmm, interesting.

For the same reason that he couldnt kick Murry's miserable ass completely out of the bands business.

Pretty much agree – except for the part about Al pumping gas along with the rest of the Boys.  I suspect "Dr. Al" mostly likely would have been pulling teeth.

Good point.

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

I'm guessing that if Al had never left, he'd have probably been included in this '64 incorporation? I'm pretty sure I've read this somewhere, but just to double check - is the presumed reason that Al wasn't included on this incorporation based out of some sort of "punishment" for him leaving the group for a spell in '62? Or because Murry knew that Al would stick around to be part of a (now) famous group regardless of being left out of the incorporation, so why give him any extra bucks/power if they didn't have to? Or because he was not family? (Or all of the above)?

I think Brian needed the Beach Boys and the boys needed Brian. I think the family and friends support dynamic pushed Brian forward when it might not have been in his nature to take that kind of risk. Didn't Brian once say that Mike's admonishment that his "noodling" was better than what was on the radio is the reason he agreed to the band? Brian didn't fire Mike because Brian needed Mike. Not so much as a lyricist, but as a cousin. Brian could find others who were good with words, and sometimes did. But, Mike was family.  Maybe that's the real reason the Smile and Pet Sounds controversy was so painful for both.  For Mike, it wasn't  just about a composer using another lyricist, it was about family loyalty. And,  for Brian, it wasn't just that "Mike didn't like the words," but "My cousin isn't supporting me."

Conversely, I don't think any of the Boys would have been rock stars without Brian. None of them had  his grasp of songwriting, melody and harmony construction. Dennis and Carl developed their songwriting and producing skills from being in the studio with Brian and other musicians. Dave had his own band, but never quite broke into the mainstream.

It's easy to say the others would have been "pumping gas" without Brian. To an extent, that's true. I think Mike and Dennis would have been stuck in much less glamorous jobs. Al probably would have finished his degree. Brian would have also finished college and would be teaching music or psychology. And, we would have missed out on all that wonderful music.

This band happened because of the synergistic group dynamic between family and friends. Take anything away, and you just don't have The Beach Boys.

:-D

We do because he tried numerous times and failed even with the advantage of the success of the BBs.

I think Brian might well have drifted towards scoring movies and/or TV shows. He certainly had/has a very visual musical sensibility.

I honestly think that for every great musical legend that has ever come down the pike there has got to be at least one other person of equal talent that never caught even a tiny break. All the talent in the world won't get you anywhere if you don't have the right people to back you up and even then you have to be at the right place, at the right time with the right song. The odds that Brian Wilson would be just as famous today if he'd never have formed The Beach Boys are astronomical.

The Beach Boys have always been greater than the sum of their parts. I've watched some footage of the Brian, Al & Dave show and the Mike & Bruce show ... neither of them really do anything for me. Yet when you watch the 2012 reunion footage, it just TURNS ON ... I can't explain it. And I was skeptical they could pull something legit off, but they really did somehow.

Brian has never really done anything without the Beach Boys to come close to his work with the group in my opinion. And while I think the Beach Boys have come close to Brian's greatness without him ("I Can Hear Music") ... his energy and contribution seems to be present even in his absence. And of course, the real great stuff happens only with Brian's involvement.

I knew Sky Saxon from the Seeds for awhile before he passed away, and he hooked up with a young garage band (named Shapes Have Fangs) to act as The Seeds for some club gigs. On some occasions, they would play some dates where Shapes Have Fangs would open for The Seeds (basically, the same band opening for themselves + Sky Saxon). The band were good enough, but when they finished their set and Sky got on stage with them to start the Seeds set ... the whole thing transformed into something magic. I couldn't quite explain it. I learned something very valuable about musical charisma and chemistry there.

It would have been a five corner intersection.

Spot on post! I've seen this firsthand too. You bring in a charismatic singer, guitarist, whatever the case...bring in a real pro in any capacity, and the band is elevated. It's not even playing over their heads, it's just a different dynamic and excitement that comes across.

To be honest, I also saw it on the Smile tour with Brian. Not just the Smile portion, but the first set as well. Not even the "encore" oldies final set matched any of that dynamic that came from the stage in the first and Smile sets. Yet other shows where I saw Brian with the same band didn't match that level.

I think the setlist choices may also be a factor. But no doubt you know it when you feel it happening at a live show, either playing or watching.

'Surf City' went to #1.

Think of all the Lennons who never met their McCartneys, or the Jaggers their Richards...

Someone else produced that hit with another group.

Brian teaching psychology?? :)

The Real Beach Boy is spot on.  I've always been pro-Wilsons, but Brian loves Mike.  Brian's the one who has come and gone through the years.  He owed it to the band to share those late 80's tracks. That record would have been better too.  He's the one who wanted to leave the road.  And isn't Jason right about there being a very similar thread around here?  Just set in 1966...  Mike not a part of the band?  They wouldn't have made it past 1965.  Bands back then, had to tour.  Nobody else could have fronted this band, get real.  Even if Brian changed his mind and came back out to tour, Dennis and Carl were not yet ready.  And I still want Mike there.  Mike was cool in the early 70's too, even after 1974.  They did plenty of new tracks/deep cuts into the 80's.  How many oldsters are posting on this thread.  They would know it was not just surf-n-car shows, Carl and Al saw to that, and Mike did new stuff.  Carl left briefly in a beef over not practicing.  Know what, he couldn't get Brian and Dennis to either.  He got back quick.  And I don't think that was a money deal, he liked playing with Mike.  And please stop saying Mike was not an important part of the vocal mix on the records.  Mike and Brian's co-leads on so many of the mid-sixties tracks made them what they are.  Take out that element?  I think too many here are getting puffed up about the Mike/HuffPost thread, calm down little birdies.  Mike was and is like a brother to Brian.  It's the "handlers" that are telling Brian not to talk up more reunion shows.  Donny L  is right, like the Beatles, greater than the sum of their parts.  And you do realize there would be no Wild Honey or Sunflower without Mike.  Also added AGD's post 'cause I think it's neat that they signed those papers on my 12th birthday.  Okay, okay... I'm using up too many of my thoughts, I've been saving up for the "I like Mike" thread, and kids are at the door...Happy Halloween everybody!

Yeah. The irony. From Wikipedia:

How do you know that?

Exactly. Listen to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTsL_ImgWn0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTsL_ImgWn0) - and then tell me Mike isn't a vital part of the vocal mix.

Well that's just 2:45 mins of perfection right there.

Brian's a lover, not a fighter..........

 :3d

As AGD pointed out never forget the music!

I meant lawyers.  It's the take I have after reading interviews during the recent tour.

Too long! :wink I'm satisfied with this information you gave me. :)

This thread should self-destruct. It is an embarrassment to my life.  :'( :'( :'( :'( >:( :'( :-\ :-\ :'( :'( :'( :'(

Agreed

Agreed, close it down.  First, let's just keep adding and building on the word AGREED til it takes up a whole page.  Mods, wave your magic wands, and it will fall off the charts.

Lonely Summer,  Most of us are joking.  Mike is NOT "evil incarnate"...and everybody wants more money.

I got a "this video has been removed"  notice.

I think a lot of people on this board are Brian Wilson fans, aka Brianistas, some are Dennis Wilson fans, and some are Beach Boys fans. Brianistas think Brian was/is a genius who could have accomplished much more than he did, if only he hadn't been held back by those no-talent, money grubbing Beach Boys (except for Dennis - he was cool because he was a real surfer, had more women than God, and died young, and dying young is always good for rock 'n' roll people). Beach Boys fans agree that Brian was (and maybe still is?) a genius, and that he accomplished so much of what he did in part through the efforts of his bandmates.

You got that about right. Include me in the "Beach Boys fans" camp.

Then I'm a Beach Boys fan.  They all made it what it was.  I don't think Brian could have done it on his own.  Saying that, I do like Brian, Dennis, and Carl the best of the Beach Boys.  Some folks here like Al or Mike the best.

No way I'm a Brianista either. Yes, Brian was a genius. But I love all the Wilsons. And Dennis is my favourite anyway. He and Carl were also very talented.
I also really like Al, David, Bruce (I know, I know. Enough with the Bruce bashing!), Blondie, and Ricky. All of them seem like great people, and have also made some terrific music

Can't see why - just tried it, no problems at all. God probably hates you.

Well said! Although a slight oversight not giving a shout-out to the few Alanistas here  :lol

Count me in the BB camp as well - oh, how I want to be in that number!

I do like the Wilsons the best, but each member brought something special to the group. Although these days, it is hard to figure out exactly what it is that Bruce does in the band, beyond adjusting his mic stand and getting the crowds to clap along. The member my attitude has changed the most about is David. Years ago, when I was reading the books about the group from David Leaf, et al, David Marks was barely mentioned. Now I know how important his guitar playing was to the early sound of the group, and he was one of the definite highlights of C50.

:lol re Bruce these days.

Back in the day (I  think) Bruce bought an objective producers eye - evidenced in that vox sessions fragment where post-take Brian asks Bruce in the control room how the take sounded - and Bruce said "It was ok, but it wasn't, y'know, great" (or something along those lines).

Essentially, he helped to push/challenge things a little - perhaps not a mega contribution, but an important one none the less.

And, perhaps his current involvement is no more than his early one - he's just there to push it along a bit and perhaps make things a bit more spesh than otherwise, maybe.

Totally behind ya re David Marks:  :beer

Umm... I don't think I have a favorite Beach Boy! Since C50 Dave comes across as the most sympathetic.

Hands up, who here likes Mike the best? I expect not even the Mike Love apologists like myself do.

Bruce, IMO, is kind of a sad story, because as others have pointed out to me here, he does have a major amount of talent as an arranger, keyboard player, and a very nice voice, but his role in the M&B show is so minimal. I can't imagine, say, Carl, if he were still here, just coasting along like Bruce does. He still be giving us several strong vocal spotlights in every show, and still playing those classic guitar solos. Al sure seems to be underutilized in the BAD shows, he's the member with by far the best voice at this stage of the game, but only gets to sing lead on 4 or 5 songs per show. Maybe this will change over time, but probably not. Al just isn't the kind of guy to push himself, probably just happy to have a gig now.

Mike is certainly the most fascinating/interesting/exasperating Beach Boy next to Brian ,and his best vocals (including many bass/background parts) are supernaturally amazing.

Mike doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be anyone's fsvorite because he was a team player in a great team. His contributions didn't stand out like Dennis' songs because Mike was so much of the basic Beach Boys DNA. You hear Mike's voice and your mind recognizes what you're hearing as The Beach Boys. This is key point about Mike.

You are so wise Pinder-san.

Pinter,  Welcome to the "Alternate Mike/HuffPost" thread, where we like ALL The Beach Boys!  Even Joe is welcome here.  

As long as I don't have to like Stamos, I will be a Beach Boys fan.  ;D

"Stamaoists" anyone?  >:D

They were purged in 2005.... :lol

But that was back before his heroic contributions to the C50 tour :)

Oh, brother. Mike has shown a lamentable tendency to regress into the pre-Beach Boys Today! weltanschauung (there's the twelve-bit word for today...), and his politics too often drift toward squishy-Fascist....but he's a great singer, equally proficient on lead and backup, and all phases of the Beach Boys oeuvre (six bits! six bits!) would be untenable without him. Brian would never fire Mike because his voice is one of the key foundations that makes 'em great. Brian has known it since Day One, and he still knows it.

Now, writing with him is an entire different matter....  ::)

I'll just slip into "keep-saying-this-until-it-sticks" mode, if that's OK with y'all.  :)

Brian didn't fire Mike because he couldn't, at least not without the support of both brothers 1964-70. After that, my guess is he was more interested in feeding his myriad habits than The Beach Boys, at least to that extent.

If that was the only reason, it would imply Briane really did want to fire him. Did he?

I dont think Brian ever did WANT to fire Mike. He was an integral part of the band.

The jeering hawaiian shirt, now that guy,, would he fire Brian?  ;)

In a heartbeat.  ;D