The Smiley Smile Message Board

Believe me, there are a lot of things I'd like to revise in the history of this band. But if you could change the outcome of one event/decision in Beach Boys history, what would it be?

With millions of options to choose from, I'd still say I wish Brian had completed and released Smile in 1967. Hopefully that would changed a ton of things for the band and prevented many of the future dilemmas.

Brian was asked this question a few years ago, and he replied without hesitation, "I wish I hadn't done drugs".

I'll go with that.

The decision to make 15 big ones spilt new material and oldies (should have been all new). A completely squandered opportunity.

They never should have adapted their patriotic "America's band" image.  I'm an American myself and I still think that's so nauseatingly lame and phony.  I think that and the fact they were so enamored with the President who couldn't say AIDS did a lot to hurt their image and they were basically a walking parody of themselves by that time.

Smile is the obvious choice - if it had been released more people would recognize them as one of (or even THE) greatest bands of all time, especially if Brian had continued progressing instead of regressing. But it'd also probably change everything and ruin the whole legend. So I'd have to go with scrapping Adult/Child - if the other Boys hadn't shown resistance to it not only would we be able to hear that amazing album in great quality but that'd be one less thing that made Brian forfeit the producer's chair again (and a follow up with some of the better songs from M.I.U. with better arrangements and maybe a more artistic thematic link than the Christmasey sound - since brian had done the sytnh sound on Love You and the big band sound on AC, would have been amazing). I'm not saying he wouldn't have needed Landy to step in again anyway, but we could have got a bit more out of the whole Brian's Back era I think.

Mike Love comes back from India able to actually levitate. The failure for Smile to materialize is utterly negated by the fact that, holy sh*t, the lead singer can fly on stage! He never ends up ripping off Jagger's stage moves and instead wows the crowd with yogic tricks that make Endless Summer look like greasy Sha Na Na kids stuff. Brian, inspired and encouraged by The Mike That Could Fly, enters another endlessly prolific, madly creative phase writing weird tinkly Mt Vernon music to accompany the levitating on tour.

Oddly, in this scenario Al ends up a dentist anyway. You can't have everything.

The other history changer was in 1974 when they reverted back to emphasisizing the greatest hits format after Endless Summer came out. The good 'artsy fartsy' material (Sunflower, Surf's Up, CT&P) gave way to the oldies (for the most part) in the live set. And instead of another album with all new material in 1976, they came back with sure fire oldies covers that sold well with a new gerneration of Endless Summer/Spirit Of America/Good Vibrations record buying kids and I think they lost a good-sized older audience at that point.

Mike love can levitiate!

'Have you ever levitated?

Yeah, I practiced doing this as part of my TM city programs.

And it's worked?

Yeah, well, I mean we're fledging hoppers. But the idea is with perfection of the mind and the body you can actually defy gravity. So it actually showed up in the song "Kokomo." A hundred years from now people will be defying gravity as a normal course.'

Well, they shouldn't have lost those folks, and if they did, it was those folk's loss.... 15 Big Ones is at least half a good little album and what came after has some great moments (Hey, LA is probably my 3rd or 4th fave Beach Boys album) ....

I'm more or less speculating about the older fans, or the ones who appreciated the early '70's albums up 'till '74. The baby boomers. I'm one of the older ones they didn't lose.  :-D

Some people think they sold out when that new wave came in with the popularity of the oldies.

I wish that Pet Sounds would have sold like mad throughout the world. Brian would never become as discouraged as he did and it would be really interesting to see what came next.

The one thing I would change is Dennis cutting his hand in 1971. That may sound like a rather random thing to think about, but after reading some of Ian and Jon's new book I'm starting to wonder if that may have been an early "turning point" in his destructive behavior.

You forgot to add that Brian writes the rock opera "The Mike That Could Fly" complete with movie tie-in directed by  Bob Rafelson. Oddly, Mike is given no lead vocals on the project and has a problem with the lyrical content.

Probably the release of "Endless Summer". "Holland" had come out around a year earlier, and though it is slightly overrated, it is still a brilliant album. Since "Wild Honey" (or if you're a big fan of "Smiley Smile", then "Pet Sounds") every single album (and live albums) they made were fucking great! This was their best era, and it came to an end with "Endless Summer". Though they weren't successful in the US due to their long-running image problem, they remained a huge band worldwide. Though Blondie Chaplin left because of a fight with Steve Love i think, they still had Ricky Fataar, and they still had a lot of potential to continue their long run of great albums. They should have kept Ricky longer, regardless of the fact that Dennis can drum again. I'm getting a little off topic now, so...
Anyway, "Endless Summer" ended this great era. Sure, they got a lot of new fans, but they were only interested in the pre-"Pet Sounds" hits. So slowly, and inevitably, the Beach Boys tarnished their reputation and legacy irreparably by deteriorating into a oldies band, churning out the old hits. And sure enough, their next album "15 Big Ones" was worse than mediocre. Though "Love You", "L.A. Light Album" and the criminally underrated "The Beach Boys" were great albums, for the most part, the quality of their work went downhill badly.

It would have been better all around if "Endless Summer" never came out, the Beach Boys possibly continue their run of excellent albums, and maybe break-up on a high like the Beatles so they have a much better legacy. Maybe get back together for the 50th Anniversary, but that's it.

Just my opinion, however.

The decision not to use the hi-hat on studio recordings.

+1

I'm with Mikie on this - and they should have followed the Holland groove for longer (I think the drink, drugs, Murry's death and the lack of appreciation of DW as a writer contributed to the creative downfall as much as the success of Endless Summer.

"Over the city, on a Beach Boy,
I can see everything below.
The pilot, Al, looks so tiny,
The meals taste of drugs,
We've only got 15 minutes to go…"

Seriously, I'd change he fact that they had an abusive parent so they could all grow up leading normal lives and maybe a bit happier for that. We'd never know what we'd missed so we wouldn't have missed out.

Carl trod on a butterfly in 1960, and every bad event and decision in the Beach Boys long and chequered history can be traced back to that one event.

This is a well known phenomenon called the "Carl's a clumsy f*ckwit" effect.

So the answer is simple, travel back to the night Carl was conceived and kick Murry in the nuts.

Yup. For yours truly, a sad, naked truth.

I'll go with Carl and Dennis not forcing the creative, relevant side of the band's music in 1973/74. And, if necessary, taking Brian and forming a new group.

Or losing Stephen Desper and Brian's home studio. That combination produced the most incredible music.

I'd maybe send Heroes and Villains to the #1 spot. I'd imagine the positive vibes Brian would get from that would lead to better places.

#1: Brian doesn't overdo drugs or retreats from his creative writing

#2: If #1 should falter then Brian is ignored when Carl and Dennis push for 1975 release of album with original content.

Food for thought - without drugs, would we have "California Girls", Pet Sounds, or SMiLE?

We cannot know that. I think that drugs are way overrated with regard to their 'creativity enhancing potential', but that's my personal opinion.

I would readily trade in California Girls, Pet Sounds, and Smile for a Brian who'd have lead a considerably happier life without any drugs in it, that's for sure, as much as I love that music (all this based on the hypothesis that he'd not created that material, or stuff resembling it, had he not taken drugs - and also on the conjecture that he'd been happier without substances in the first place).

Mine would be for Dennis to make a stronger play for leader of the band in the early seventies, or for them to knuckle down and not accept contracts that explicitly require a majority of BW songs/just require a strong emphasis on Brian when he wasn't able to deliver fully. We could have had Dennis songs anchoring BB's albums rather than BW material fleshed out by the group.

Or, for them to record a stronger 12 track 1972 era record rather than rushing two 8 track albums in that period - CATP and Holland could make a solid extended record but they are a bit slight in isolation.


Just generally for them to have been a bit smarter in the early Reprise era, I guess? Just do whatever they could to not release 15BO

HDon, same reason why I wish he'd had a less abusive childhood: if the beatings brought out his creative side (as well as his insular side), we'd lose a lot but his gain would be immeasurable.

Now, where're the keys to my Tardis…?

Hi John, thanks for the addition - one of the times I think: hey I should have thought of that in the first place.

I agree with Brian not taking drugs. It would be too selfish of me to let him sacrifice his brain for a handful of great songs. Besides, drugs or no, he still had a creative force dying to get out. I disagree with people saying Endless Summer was their downfall. I remember growing up my step brother had Endless Summer and I had just gotten Love You. I hated Love You but played the crap out of ES. To me, that's the Beach Boys and always will be. Except for the few hits they had, Do It Again, Good Timin', Kokomo, Forever, I thought all their albums after Pet Sounds sucked.  That's Why God Made The Radio is their best album since Pet Sounds. To me that's the Beach Boys.

Also, if I had a time machine I would go back and somehow try to stop Dennis from drowning and I also wish Carl had never taken up smoking. I love all the Boys and wish Dennis and Carl could have been part of the 50th.

Seriously?

You think TWGMTR is better than Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends? Better than Sunflower and Holland?  ???

Takes all sorts I suppose.........

I'll be honest – you did, but not until tomorrow. I nipped back from then in my Tardis to 9am today and made the post before you. Will be heading back to tomorrow later this afternoon – once that happens I'll quit stealing your good ideas!   ;)

 :lol :lol :lol

your mind works in mysterious ways, mr Manning sir...

I'd have let Jack Rieley manage the band from Holland like he wanted, and just added a assistant for the things that he couldn't do from that location. The Love brothers (Stan and Steve)
needed to be not involved.

Frank Zappa instead of Juice Bronston.  ;)

Yep. I might be in the minority but I know I'm not the only crazy one. I've tried to like those albums (believe me I've tried) but the music just doesn't appeal to me. Even "Wild Honey" which is on one of their greatest hits cd, tried to like it but just can't. Also didn't like Pacific Blue, just not my kind of music.

The problem with Endless Summer though wasn't its content which was excellent of course, it was its success which forced the band to go back to something they no longer were, an image they tried hard to leave behind.  They were all grown men by this point, well into their mid-30s.  Their whole fun in the sun, surfing and hot rod schtick didn't suit them anymore and now they were expected to match that success from when they were still in their early 20s.  As performers, they got through it because it's not like they ever abandoned those songs as concert staples but creatively, it weakened them, not to mention that it put Brian Wilson in the spotlight at a time when he was still deeply troubled and taking him out on the road with them did more bad than good, at least for Brian.  I don't think Endless Summer immediately hurt the Beah Boys but it was definitely the first step in what would turn the band into a parody of themselves.

No.

If they are such a "walking parody", then why are they still around? Why can two factions co-exist and tour some 30 years later? Why was the "walking parody" able to secure a #3 album in 2012? Being banned for the Washington, D.C. show and being called "America's Band" was a stroke of genius. It helped cement a relationship with the whole country, not just their fanbase. Even with all the goodwill generated by that phrase, it only affected them as live performers. Like Endless Summer a decade before, while it raised their profile, it did little to bolster record sales. Even with all this going on Sony dropped them. Most folks don't/ didn't want new music from them. They then as now, are fairly content to be rocked by the oldies only. C50 will tell you that. Even at their longest show, how many new songs were performed? Three. Even the Beach Boys understand that and so should we.

Exactly.

Ditto.

A shame with Carl, because he did quit smoking in 1985 or so. My uncle quit smoking in the late 60's and still died of lung cancer 40 years later. He quit because that was the one thing that he was scared of dying from and it got him anyway.

I'd have the rest of the band cut a deal with Brian regarding SMILE.  They support him and do whatever it takes to finish and release it, and he continues to get support to complete non-top 40 music and albums, so long as 1) he gets help for his drug and mental issues, and 2) he assists the band in making albums more in line with what they consider to be Beach Boys music.  In essence, Brian starts his solo career 20+ years sooner than he did in our timeline, and the rest of the Boys still get to grow and shine as creative artists.

If I get to pick another, it would be about the same as above, but with Dennis in the 1970s.  When it was clear he was exploding creatively, the rest of the band should have asked him to produce and write new Beach Boys albums, but only if found real help for his drug and alcohol issues. 

Counting only studio non-solo albums, L.A. is my 2nd, right behind Friends.

If I could change one thing in the Beach Boys saga it would this: Instead of channeling Brian's drive to create music into a band I would have made him finish his courses at community college and then sent him to UCLA school of music as a composition major.

Yup.

To answer the original question in the post, I would have had Carl arrange professional intervention with Dennis earlier instead of waiting for the new year. Something that probably haunted him for years afterward.

teh heck?

I'm not sure how adopting phony patriotism into their act helped them creatively.  The 50th Anniversary worked because not only was it a reunion, it was a return to the studio, it was the first time in over thirty years that Brian Wilson was in charge, because they were making an effort again, something they definitely were not doing in the 1980s and 90s.

That Carl and Al would have formed a professional and artistic alliance in the mid-70's.  I believe Brian's vote would have fallen in line with this group, Dennis would have supported Brian and Carl and the band's legacy would have taken a  completely different turn...

Calling them America's Band had nothing to do with creativity in the studio. It was about being shut down from playing at the Washington Monument. No phony patriotism, there at all. Just citizens siding with our Boys' over a stupid government decision. You called them a "waking parody", not me. Only some of their fanbase (like you) see them that way.

Save Dennis.

I wish that Pet Sounds would have never been released, and been replaced by a Summer In Paradise 66 version.

Don't we all! ;)

I'd say withdrawing from Monterey Pop did more to damage their image than anything else in their career. Right at the point where they could have won over the crowd in a single swoop, they back out, and loudly project the image that they were phoneys unable to play their own music on stage.

I never, ever heard or read anything calling them phoneys. Uncool yes, but not phoney. Is this just your opinion or has this been stated in articles?

I'm gonna go with... not enough drugs were consumed.  More drugs, for everyone, especially Al!

But seriously, as a fan of "drugs" I can't help but cringe at Brian's now-standard "shouldn't have done those drugs!" line.   Not to mention, doesn't he also often say, and I'm paraphrasing, "Pet Sounds was the weed album, and SMiLE was the LSD album"?  And mind you, he doesn't say that with any regret, but with a little bit of pride, the kind of pride one has for one's earlier, wilder years. 

Sure, maybe he should've done LESS drugs.  But lets not forget the role drugs played in some of the BB's greatest stuff, not to mention pretty much all the music you like from every artist you like. 

I think what was wrong with Brian was already wrong with Brian, before drugs were ever introduced.  And I think the legal drugs Landy used did way more damage than the LSD.  (I assume no one here is complaining about weed...)

IMHO.

I doubt changing one thing would have any real difference. The premise always seems to be the Beach Boys shoulda/coulda been something other than what they were and I don't buy it.

I would make the voices in Brian's head benevolent instead of malevolent from the outset.

The Wilson brothers should've started doing molly too at some point. :lol I can only imagine the weird, perverted music they'd come up with, Brian and Dennis especially!

+1

This might seem like a tiny and insignificant detail, but it's just one more thing that contributed to them less than impressing the rock/hip contingent when it mattered....... And it's why many of us prefer the live Dennis-driven versions of songs in question......

"Listen to this horseshit. Is the drummer even using cymbals? This doesn't even sound like classic rock! LOL!"

Hey, I didn't say I agree with it! But can you imagine just finishing side 4 of Tommy and then throwing on 20/20 and yeah, Do it Again's got a nice groove, but then it's all sleigh bells n wood blocks from there out.... Not much fun for air drummers who'd likely toss the record off and put their Zappa or Sgt. Pepper back on (where Ringo rocks it)

I have a friend who still makes fun of The Beach Boys because I played him Wild Honey once and he couldn't stop laughing about the simple drums with no hi-hat! .... I mean, yeah, people are idiots, but idiots buy (or don't buy) records!

I can't tell whether this is trolling or not.

*giggle* I knew what you meant and that it wasn't something you were totally onboard with. It's just so silly. I have little time for folks like your friend, at least in terms of talking about music.

Might sound selfish, but I'd rather things the way they were than them chasing after lame rawk cliches full-on in order to gain popularity.

True, but then again, I still wish Brian had just let Dennis bash away on many many songs.

I don't think stopping Carl from smoking all-together would have changed anything. Better to warn him in 1990 that he will be dead before the decade is out, and to take cancer tests every year

There are a lot of good ones (which I raised many of in the semi-recent "What if?" someone started) but MY answer is definitely that Brian could have cracked the nut that was Smile before he ran out of steam.   :-\

I am certain I read it somewhere that they were phoneys because they couldnt perform their songs live. It also tied in with the use of studio musicians. I cannot for the life of me recall where I read it.

Amen to that. The only thing they could do worse would be to wrap themselves in the Blues, the refuge of aging white rockers needing an excuse to bash out 10 minute gurning guitar solos...

I'll take Wild Honey over Tommy any day

I'd try to help, but I'll need more info to answer your question.

Assuming that you can't really change nature or nurture, I would have gotten all of the Wilson brothers legitimate mental health supports as soon as the cracks started showing. Imagine what the group could have been had all three of those talents managed to maintain some level of health and functionality. I know that Brian's withdrawal left the space for Carl and Dennis to come more to the forefront; but I believe he would have needed to do that, anyway, to get some healthy balance in his life. A Beach Boys band with Brian, Carl and Dennis at their creative best would have been awesome to behold.

The rehiring of Landy late 1982, with carte blanche. It was a catastrophically stupid short term fix that turned into pretty much a wasted decade, and the results of his regime are still painfully obvious today. Every single person who so much as nodded when asked if it was a good idea deserves eternal censure. Anyone else would have been a better choice.

Setting aside the obvious trolling, any credibility fell flat on its ass right there.  ;D

In retrospect, clearly yes. But things were beyond desperate by 1982 and Landy had got results before. The really dumb move was nobody felt compelled to step in the second Landy began upping his fees and started worming his way into Brian's artistic and legal affairs.

They couldn't: he demanded, and was given, a completely free hand.

Still, if it weren't for Landy, Brian would have most likely died around the same time as Dennis. You gotta give Landy credit for saving his life

Crediting Landy for saving Brian's life is a little like crediting the Church of Scientology (or one of many other cults you'd care to mention) for helping drug addicts clean up their act.  It's technically true, but their motivations are suspect and they regard the people's lives they save as their own private property, free to do whatever they'd like with.

OK... Carl Wilson calls you in fall 1982: "My brother Brian... we don't know what to do... he's 320 lbs, chain-smoking and hoovering up any drug he can lay hands on... if this carries on, we're worried he's gonna die... what can we do ?"

Well, gee Carl, I have absolutely no idea. That's a tough one. Lemme think it over...

My point being, even Stevie Wonder could have seen the problem AND the solution. Advanced meson resonance theory it ain't. Landy probably put the phone down then danced around the room with glee at begin given a second chance to fill his pockets, and give the guy his due, he seized it firmly with both hands.

Then why couldn't Carl?

Because The Beach Boys, collectively and individually, have repeatedly exhibited a penchant for making absolutely the worst possible decision, given a choice. This is challenged only by their outstanding ability to bury their heads in the sand and not recognise the elephant in the room.

The whole "but without Landy Brian would be dead" approach seems to imply that Landy and only Landy could have made a difference. I'm sure there were some competent and ethical therapists out there who could have not only helped Brian, but wouldn't have damaged him with the incorrectly prescribed drugs or taken advantage of him psychologically and materially.  It's just a shame no one called UCLA or Stanford or the American Psychiatric Association to find one.

That is true, but I'm inclined to believe that the band/family indeed tried to help Brian a lot before, be it by hiring psychiatrists or hospitalizing him. It's just that none of those worked at all. Keep in mind that Brian was not exactly easy to deal with. Remember that story about how he panicked and ran off once a psychiatrist lit his pipe because it reminded him of Murry?

Landy probably seemed to them like the ultimate solution. They were desperate.  Hell, I'd probably do the same if put face to face with a choice that has at least a tiny chance of saving my brother/friend (though I'd probably think twice about the "completely free hand" thing). Of course it was not the best, but it probably seemed to them like the only one with any chances of effect.

Speaking of Eugene Landy, was he the person responsible for Brian Wilson's Tardive Dyskinesia?

Amongst those with the requisite knowledge, that's the leading theory. If I was asked to point at the person who DID save Brian's life, it'd be Peter Reum. Without his intervention, the condition Brian would be in now - if he were still alive - doesn't bear thinking about.

He'll give me serious grief for stating this, but it's true.

Why couldn't the group have stopped Landy and/or the infamous "surf Nazi's"? I mean, really? If it had been by brother, I would have gone to Brian's house with enough weaponry to start WWIII, and forcibly "kidnapped" and taken him as far away as possible. Even out of the US if need be.

#1 would absolutely be changing the amount/types of drugs Brian was taking, or as quoted at the start of the thread just him not using them at all.

#2 would be that around the early 70's they should have had better sense on choosing album content (something MIC really highlights) and, again to echo plenty of others here, for them to have kept on releasing records like Sunflower/Suerfs Up/CaTP/Holland in the late 70s instead of the Endless Summer focus.

#3 would be for them to have put 'I went to sleep' on the end of Friends instead of 'Transcendental Meditation'!

Put me, or any one of you guys in charge of Capitol Records in, say 1964......

Just to drop the pressure a bit, get behind them, realise what they had.

Just look at what the BB's achieved without that support!

And most of all, have Dennis choose the tempo!

Actually I hadn't thought someone would pick up my remark, which is why I hadn't checked this thread in quite some time. Of course if I could choose between the hi-hat and Landy not damaging Brian with his "medicaments", I'd choose the latter.

Brian not shying away from production in the late 60's...so I guess Heroes going to #1 would help prevent that.

I wish Brian had turned his "temporary" break from touring in 1963 into a permanent break, with Al rejoining the band and Dave remaining in it.

I wonder if Murry began picking more fights with Dave because he knew he had mature, reliable Al Jardine in the bullpen, ready to go. If Brian is off the road permanently, Murry might have realized the band needed Dave, and Dave would have been around when Murry's role decreased dramatically.

A key part of this scenario is that Brian isn't on the plane in December 1964 and doesn't have the breakdown.

This is nothing against Bruce, it's more pro-Dave, preventing Brian from the 1964 breakdown, giving the group a more "rocking" direction with Dave and giving Dennis and Carl an ally in the 1970s.

I wish The Beach Boys had all quit touring and become a studio-only group. That is where their legacy remains and for good reason.

Then they would have been The Beatles! ;)