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I've heard from so many folks (including ol' Bruce) that Sloop John B sticks out like a sore thumb on Pet Sounds and nearly kills the flow of the album. Many of these people state that it would've fit much better on Summer Days, and some even note that TLGIOK would've been a better fit to close side 1. Personally I think that's absolute poppycock. Though it is a cover, I think Sloop fits like a glove on PS and is the perfect closer to the first side. It's lush, melancholy and nostalgic in a similar manner to That's Not Me or even Caroline, No to a degree. It would've been downright jarring to include on SDSM in my opinion, as would the bouncy TLGIOK on PS. The way it builds up in momentum until the fade-out into the end of the side has always been a bit of a highlight on the LP for me, not to mention the meticulous instrumentation characteristic of the record.

I wasn't able to find a topic dedicated to this debate, so I'd love to hear what you all think.

I've always thought it was like an acid trip in the middle of the Pet Sounds story. He's hallucinating he's part of crew and wants to "go home", or stop tripping.

The problem with Bruce's "should have been on Summer Days" comment is the first "Sloop" session took place a week after that album came out. I guess it's easy to forget that in the flurry of sessions etc. back then, though.

I can't imagine Summer Days with "Sloop John B" on it, but I especially can't imagine Pet Sounds without it. People's assertion that Pet Sounds was meant to be some kind of concept album with a story and "Sloop John B" disrupts that is their own false perception. The same logic should dictate that songs like "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" and "Pet Sounds" don't belong either, yet no one complains about them because they weren't singles that big bad Capitol (and Mike, no doubt) could force Lord Brian to put on his rebellious avant-garde concept album (p.s. marijuana is a vegetable).

Not again.

For me it works just as Money does on Dark Side Of The Moon, Butcher's Tale on Odessey and Oracle, Here She Comes Now on White Light/White Heat, More Fool Me on Selling England By The Pound - i.e, as the needed counterpoint.

I have never regarded Pet Sounds as a "story", "concept album", etc. It's a perfectly-crafted cycle of songs and instrumentals, and "Sloop John B" most certainly belongs in there (as does the sublime title track). Brian thought so too----and that's good enough for me. :=)

The baroque production style and musical/vocal arrangement fit in with everything else on Pet Sounds; the fact that the lyrics don't relate to those other songs doesn't matter much, in my view.  I tend to think that the idea of the songs of Pet Sounds telling a story or something is probably a reading that was retroactively forced on the album anyway.

I should admit that I am biased on this question, though.  Pet Sounds was the first Beach Boys album I bought, and I bought it specifically because I was at a CD store that was playing "Sloop John B" on the radio and thought, "I should buy that album."

I'm always saying
(http://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music2/v4/0f/bf/1a/0fbf1a26-65c6-3f0b-b536-2e062c409d41/5051813922282_cover.170x170-75.jpg)

Pet Sounds is a perfect album....'Sloop John B' is as part of that perfection as is, say, 'Caroline, No'.


Perfectly said, 100% agree.

I always assumed people were insinuating that "vegetable" was code for "marijuana" when saying "Vega-Tables" was inspired by drug use until I came across this quote by Jules Siegal. I can't vouch for its validity, but it definitely sounds like a more plausible source of inspiration.

Quite.

Musically it fits in perfectly. Lyrically, it's about loss of innocence, so again, it fits in perfectly.

Sloop John B is fine on PS.  I would remove Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is too screamingly bright.

And I would remove Good Vibrations from Smile.

 

Pet Sounds is my favorite album ever, but I do think it would be more cohesive without Sloop John B. Maybe it's just because that song's never rated that highly with me (not sure why). Also, it's always nagged at me that the title for "Let's Go Away For Awhile"could be viewed as tongue-in-cheek evidence that it was intended to close out Side 1. Get it? Let's Go Away For Awhile? Anyway, I feel like Trombone Dixie would have fit in great on Side 1 as the third track, furthering the album's cinematic scope, but maybe the play-it-safe side of Brian thought 3 instrumentals would be overkill.

To this exact question, me too. If Sloop John B had been replaced with or featured originally another song, Pet Sounds would be incomplete & lose some of its charm. Because SJB as done by The BBs is one of the most beautiful recordings in history of music. At the same time, I really like "The Little Girl I Once Knew" which was constantly suggested in place of the subject. I think it'd fit just fine. Somewhen in an alternate universe.

Sloop is a sparklingly cool song.  Retrospectively, it might have been more "thematic" on Summer Days.  And, I think of Pet Sounds, more or less, as an introspective work, and a place to sort of self-reflect, in a time when people were becoming more serious, and less hedonistic, with serious stuff emerging, such as Vietnam, and folk singers such as The Kingston Trio and who helped popularize that style, using PBS, of all places. (public broadcasting for educational purposes .) Jardine brought it to the table.  

I think it fits perfectly, and respect Johnston's point of view, since he was there, and I'm just a bystander.  But, the intensity of the album required some "lightness" such as Sloop and Wouldn't it Be Nice for some pep.  It would otherwise might have been characterized as "brooding melancholy."  And, I also think that Good Vibrations needed its' own space, before being LP'd.  I think it might have overpowered Pet Sounds, which is masterfully balanced out with the "bounce" of Sloop and WIBN.  

"I feel so break-up, I wanna go home!"  :lol

(the song's history is cool to check out, too!)  ;)

I wouldn't touch Pet Sounds. It's fine the way it is. I think Brian would agree since Sloop John B was on his tracklist for the album.

 :o

Welllp, "Vega-Tables" makes infinitely more sense to me now, especially in the context of the SMiLE "album". He was so high he threw away the candy bar and ate the wrapper, and then laughed hysterically.  :hat

Now, where's that picture of Brian and Carl all red-eyed at the piano when you NEED it?

I wouldn't change the first note of Pet Sounds. Sloop stays.

Also explains the coughing.

I think it belongs just fine.  And with the track order, I think it fits perfectly after "Let's Go Away for Awhile."

Yes let's remove one of the greatest opening tracks in rock history, thank you.

That was my reaction, times 500. WIBN is my all-time favorite song.

Maybe there were talks of doing a cover closer to Summer Days and that's what Bruce is referring to?

And I'm pretty sure someone says "Piece of sh*t, hold in your hit."

The sound of pouring in the Smiley version = Carl changing the bong water

Likewise--in fact, I'd be tempted to trade in every other song on Pet Sounds for WIBN.

I can't imagine Pet Sounds without it

It sure does fit on PS. Since it follows Lets go away for a while, I imagine it as some kind of regression into childhood, since it can be seen as some kind of children song (my grandfather and me). So maybe we can argue Brian wanted to get away from the pressure of growing up for a while and just be a kid again?

Check out some YouTubes of the Kingston Trio doing Sloop John B. 

Drinkin' with "grandfather" - sounds kinda funny!  :beer

Maybe an older grandchild?

Love Brian's arrangement, but it was in the pubic domain as an old folk tune and recorded by many, according to wiki.

I think it is a cover that Al wanted to do. It slipped its way onto the album without much thought as to how it fits into  the 'narrative' of the album as a whole.

*sigh*  Every time a thread like this is started, a tape in the BBs vault turns to dust..... :(

Hell, I haven't been here as long as some so I apologize if this is the 500th thread about it, just wanted to hear other folks' opinions and couldn't find anything too quick through the search. Beats starting another M&B vs. BAD thread by a bit though, no?

In '72, reviewing PS in its incarnation as part of the initial CATP release, Stephen Davis wrote in Rolling Stone that "Sloop John B" was a "boring cover" and speculated that Capitol had chosen it as the leadoff 45 because it was the track "that fit most closely preconceived notions of the band's 'formula'." Me, I think it works beautifully on the album and belongs there.

I quote AGD at my peril:

Mid-February 1966, Brian handed Capitol a preliminary track list for Pet Sounds, which included a track (as yet unrecorded) called "Good, Good, Good Vibrations"... and "Sloop John B", by then recorded but not released until March. Therefore...

it was not included because it was the current hit...

it was not included at the company's insistance.

[Source (http://thebeachboys.forumsunlimited.com/index.php?/topic/4232-pet-sound-sessions/)]

I love Sloop John B on Pet Sounds. I think it blends beautifully from a music standpoint. Obviously the lyrical theme doesn't fit with the supposed "theme" of PS, which is ambiguous anyway. But honestly, does it really matter? This kind of thing is all about feel and I think words in pop music are overrated (and I say that as a professional wordsmith). Sloop John B fits well and I'm glad it's on the album.

There was no planned theme to Pet Sounds.

Brian always intended Sloop to be on there.

The Beach Boys is all about music, not words. Sloop fits perfectly.

If you need narrative, read a book!

That's it for me too. It's there, it's a great song, it fits sonically, the boys sound great vocally. You can take it to be a children's song or a drugtaking metaphor, which is very zeitgeisty.

There's not one reason to take it off, imo.

I absolutely adore SJB but it always spoils my enjoyment of PS.  It's a cover with completely archaic lyrics and is out of place in my opinion.

If there had to be an orphaned single then better SJB than TLGIOK but obviously time had moved on and that could have felt just as out of place on PS.  If only GV could have been included - but it wasn't.

My own preference is to leave SJB in the running order but as the backing track from the Sessions box set.  Obviously PS then has too many instrumentals but it sounds great to me.

Another alternative that keeps PS with SJB is to just listen to my own version of Remember the Poo.  It's got all the PS tracks but with SJB (backing track only) along with the Asher GV and bonus track TLGIOK (bonus tracks are essential these days).

Given the reasons for whether SJB, LGIOK or GV should have been on PS an equally valid question is "Should Good Vibrations have been left off Smiley Smile in favour of George Fell Into His French Horn?"

Remember the Poo?

 :lol

Pet Sounds for me has always been about the sound, not the lyrics or theme.  SLB fits perfectly.  Incidentally my least favorite track on Pet Sounds is Pet Sounds.

Sloop and it's "archaic" lyrics sort of tie into the SMiLE genre, as part of the American Experience. 

It made number two in the charts.

My two cents:

1) "Sloop John B." absolutely belong[s/ed] on Pet Sounds, on many dimensions.

2) This topic comes up a LOT in Beach Boys discussions, yet do we ever see "Does 'Good Vibrations' belong on Smiley Smile?" debates.

If Good Vibrations had not been on smiley smile it would have sold even less than it did. So in that regard it was probably smart to have on the album. But it really does stick out like a sore thumb.

Not really, it belongs on Smile. When I think of Smiey, I almost forget it's even on the album, in a way. I usually skip it when I want to listen to that album. It's not on a *totally* separate train of thought musically, but to me it's somehow totally cemented in the sessions for the album that didn't happen. These are the words of someone who got into the band decades after 1967, though.

However, the single mix/edit of "Heroes", somehow, does not sound especially out of place to me and I can't imagine the album without it. No idea why, maybe it gets a pass by being the first song on the album.

Heroes fits onto Smiley 'cos huge chunks of it were recorded during the Smiley sessions. It has the heavy Baldwin overdubs, and the same earthy mix as the rest of the tracks.
Good Vibrations doesn't bother me that much, bit like Good Time on Love You. I'd miss it were it not there.

                                                                                   .............I love this album soooo much.................

The lyrics fit perfectly.

The longing for home, which comes up on several tracks.

The "worst trip I've ever been on" adds a knowing wink to the intimations of altered consciousness on IKTAA.

The deep feelings of grief and longing -- "I feel so broke up." Again, reflected throughout the album.

It's never struck me that SJB was even out of place.

GV on Smiley was about a year after the single.  A lot of the newer work was abandoning the hedonism themes, and embracing the more intellectual, abstract, and a different belief system of mysticism, more reflective in nature, around a more sophisticated music texture.  Single tracks on the various earlier albums, sort of prefigured what was evolving for the BB's. 

That song was an "anchor" as well as Heroes, as Sloop was to Pet Sounds.  Sloop is what I'd characteristic as "joyous wailing" whether it is homesickness or "mal du pays" in a very concrete, non-abstract melancholy tone, which ultimately is uplifting, as a result of the snappy time signature, and everyone gets that song. 

Development from concrete, hedonistic themes, to adult, abstract, even scholarly work is part of working towards one's full human potential.  You can sing and market songs like I Get Around, etc., but people yearn to do more with their minds, and use early work as a building block.

I'm delighted that they used Sloop on Pet Sounds, even as a teaching tool, of the folk music model.  I liken it to "Drive My Car" on Rubber Soul. Does it fit? I don't know; but it is a great opener for the album, which is sort of like WIBN or Sloop, I think.  It opens the door to listen to the rest.   ;)