The Smiley Smile Message Board

Sunflower is one of the most acclaimed albums of the band's career. It is certainly good. But I tend to think fans and critics may give it too much credit. I've heard some fans say Sunflower is equal to Pet Sounds, which is an opinion I find absurd. Hopefully most of you agree with me.

Anyway, why do you like Sunflower? Is the album actually a bit overrated? I'd like to hear the arguments.

Sorry, i'd go as far to say I actually enjoy it more than Pet Sounds....... and I LUV Pet Sounds.....

I think its the peacefulness, the vocal blend from all the guys....... I find Pet Sounds more like a Brian album, not Beach Boys...

Maybe its the vocals from Denny, Mike, Carl...... Brian's great background vocals....... it just sounds more group effort than PS...

Maybe the standout tracks like 'slip on through', 'this whole world', 'forever'..... 'tears'.... I would match those to any Pet Sounds song....

Great Topic, keen to hear what the other punters think....

RickB

I know for me (and most fans would agree) it shows the Beach Boys as a BAND like no other album.  Dennis sings lead on 3 songs, Bruce sings lead on 3 songs!  Everyone stepped up and the outtakes have just as many strong songs that didn't make the album the easily could have.  It's no wonder over the years it has gained a lot of praise.  The engineering by Stephen Desper is top notch as well.  If we get to hear his true mixes someday (like Cool Cool Water where he shows you how it really could have all sounded), we will really be in for a treat.  You can easily hear how focused they were on the songs during these sessions.  Listen to the density of Slip On Through, or All I Wanna Do.  The beauty of Forever and Our Sweet Love.  The magic of Cool Cool Water.  The amazing key changes in This Whole World.  The group effort on Add Some Music To Your Day.  The rocking It's About Time.  The laid back Deidre or At My Window.  Etc!

I would love to have a Sunflower Sessions box someday!

IMO Sunflower is an average collection of song, nothing superb in terms of artistic achievement...but I think people in this board like it cause it was the most democratic BB album ever, showcasing also their individual growth as songwriters.

Now, wanna know a really, really overrated BB album? Holland  :P

I like it better than Pet Sounds too but both are right at the very top for me. It's just great fresh sounding, music.

One of their best. The only weak song on it is Got To Know The Woman and even that's not that bad. This should have been the album that brought the masses back to the band, not Endless Bummer.

Honestly, I don't think I never liked an album or song because of democracy. Being GOOD is my main prerequisite. ;)

Not overrated but it could've been better with a few adjustments. I'd rather have a finished California Slide over Got to Know the Woman and Good Time over At my Window.

;)

The main draw of Sunflower, for me, is All I Wanna Do, which is, in my opinion, one of the band's very best songs, above even most of the revered Pet Sounds and Smile material.

I've always found this to be a complicated question or topic. After reading several positive reviews of Sunflower, and then finally purchasing it, I have to admit that I was slightly underwhelmed and would agree that it is overrated. But, when you take the album as a whole, with the exception of Love You, it might be the best post-Pet Sounds album. That IS probably because of the "group" feeling and no really bad songs.

It is so conflicting. You can hear Brian on a lot of the songs, yet he didn't have a single full lead vocal. Some of the songs are very strong - "Slip On Through", "This Whole World", "Add Some Music To Your Day", "All I Wanna Do" - yet some are only average - "Got To Know The Woman", "It's About Time", "Our Sweet Love", 'At My Window". I'm a Bruce Johnston fan but his two songs, "Deidre" and "Tears In The Morning", don't reach me like his other songs (and I even like "The Nearest Faraway Place"). "Forever" continues to be a classic, and that leaves "Cool, Cool Water", which I DO THINK is an overrated song and album closer.

So, its inconsistency makes me think it's overrated, but just slightly and, like virtually every other Beach Boys' album, the songs they left off - "Lady" (if it was available), "Soulful Old Man Sunshine", "Good Time" - would've made it a grade higher. It is so frustrating when you analyze it..

I have to agree with regards to this.  I tend to think production is responsible for a huge percentage of a song's enjoyment, and I can't think of more stunning production than on this track.

Sunflower doesn't need defending.  You either like it or you don't.

I agree. I personally think it is over rated, by this board anyway.

Haha I really agree with this. You're right on about Holland. And I think that people give this album too much credit because it was democratic. While nice, a democratic style does not necessarily mean the music will be goods. The album should be assessed for its musical merits. In that case, I think it falls far below the music Brian Wilson put out in the 60s (and later too).

Dense, complex arrangements, excellent engineering and the flawless production make Sunflower shine so bright. There's a lot of depth in this record and on Pet Sounds that is lacking on all of their other albums as a whole. It just has that 3-D quality.

The thing about Sunflower is that if you take any individual track (or specific element) out of context, something is lost. Greater than the sum of it's parts and all that ...

Sunflower isn't overrated and easily earns its acclaim - just reel 'em off - a Brian classic (This Whole World); a mellow and beautiful Brian and Mike number; 3(!) Dennis numbers + a cowrite with Carl and Al; some compelling, honest and adult lyrics from Bruce; an exercise in soundscapes (Window); a fragment of Smile.  

A great clutch of songs approached as a group ensures the recording isn't affected by the production individualism that, for some, detracts from 20/20.  

And if that wasn't enough, throw in that some stellar production by Stephen W D.  Just great and deservedly so.

If you haven't already, get the 180g vinyl - it's a great package, and is a delicious treat on any half decent rig: (and a good reason to go vinyl if you're not seen the light).  Just I wish I had an SWD matrix decoder to hear the effects via analogue.

I find it a bit overrated as well. I actually like all three of the albums that followed it better, but I still like it quite a bit.

I have never understood the love for "All I Wanna Do." It's ok I guess, I just don't like the muddy production and Mike's vocal gets on my nerves. And there's some pretty worthless tunes on this record, which is what overrates it for me....

Stone Cold Classic:
This Whole World (probably my fave BB's song)

Great:
Forever
Slip On Through
Add Some Music
It's About Time
Cool, Cool Water

Ok/Good:
All I Wanna Do
Our Sweet Love (stellar CW vocal lifts this out of the next lowest category for me)

Take it or leave it:
Tears In The Morning
Deidre
Got To Know The Woman

Garbage:
At My Window (who's decision put this on the album? Blech)

This is probably my 6th-7th favorite album the band made.

For me, Sunflower is the most addicting Beach Boys album--but it is not their best.  I probably listen to Sunflower twice as much as any other Beach Boys album, but I don't consider it the BB's greatest achievement.  Here is my opinion of the quality of each track:

Amazing Tracks
Forever
Slip on Through
At My Window
Add Some Music to Your Day
Deirdre
This Whole World
Cool, Cool Water

Good Tracks
It’s About Time
Our Sweet Love

Decent Tracks
Tears in the Morning
All I Wanna Do

Less Than Decent Tracks
Got to Know the Woman

I definitely consider Sunflower one of the band's best studio achievements. It was definitely their most cohesive since Pet Sounds, in large part because of Stephen Desper (bless his soul). It's just a lovely sounding record with an incredible amount of detail.

Surf's Up retains the amazing production of Sunflower, but it doesn't flow as well or feel as coherent. This is likely because several elements of the title track date to 1966, when Brian was still using the Wrecking Crew.

No, because you won't listen anyway Mr.Smile4ever all non-Brians in the band are untalented.

Like any classic album, Sunflower transcends hype. It is simply a rich, enjoyable, sunshine pop opus with everyone at the top of their game. Trends will come and go, but I'll still be able to listen to This Whole World, Cool Water and Our Sweet Love. Bliss.

I don't know how someone could hear Feel Flows and Forever and say there was no talent in the group. The other Boys contributed greatly to the canon of songs.

This album and Surf's Up are probably the two best showcases of the talents of the rest of the group.

I don't love Sunflower more or even as much as Pet Sounds...but then there is no other album I've ever heard in my life that I love as much as Pet Sounds, so...

Sunflower IS an incredible album though, and I think it definitely is the best group album they ever made. Well that and Wild Honey.

Not a bad song in the bunch, and several, like 'Slip On Through', 'This Whole World', 'Forever', 'Our Sweet Love', 'All I Wanna Do' and 'Cool, Cool Water' are some of the very best songs the band has ever done.

For a squabbling, half-mad band that has always pushed the ideas brotherhood and harmony angle for decades, Sunflower is the grand realization of that.

Not to mention some of Brian's best work too. They were all great in their own way, I love the BAND.

I like it as much or more than Pet Sounds too.... And it's really the last time I get that feeling of the onnipresent Brian being just as powerfull than the all-present Brian. Sure, he's stepped back writing/lead vocal-wise but his prescense is huge and he's kicking ass all over the place.

If people like it for being democratic, that's because each member has stepped up with top notch contributions proving that each of them are worthy of being accused of being individually talented in a big way... I know this is a difficult thing to grasp for some.

I don't find anything they did between Friends and Holland to be overrated. In general I don't believe in art as a democratic process but the BB somehow pulled it off around that time and of course BW was still contributing some of the strongest songs of his entire career. (In fact I tend to think he continued to grow as a songwriter even after the demise of Smile.) Sunflower may be the most twee record they did and it took me a while to get into it. I think it's every bit as good as any other "best BB album ever" you'd care to mention.

Sunflower is rated so high because you can hear the care that has been taken in producing these tracks. They sound so full and well orchestrated/arranged, something Brian hasn't done consistently since the SMiLE sessions. And though one poster said the same goes for the next album, I feel Surf's Up does not have the same level of cared for production.



Personally, it's a really un-Brian album. I remember in 2011 I celebrated the day TSS came out by listening to vinyl Today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, SMiLE and Sunflower in a row. Sunflower didn't fit, it really is someone else's work. Good work still!



I like most of it. The only tune I didn't like when I first listened to it was "Tears In The Morning" which I found sappy and overdone. Later I found it was actually recorded on the very day I was born, of all songs! ::)

The one overrated song to me is Cool Cool Water.

Is it better than Pet Sounds? On Pet Sounds there are songs that move me more, so IMHO no.

What I like the least is the cover design. The photo is nice, but the graphics, uh... The Surf's Up cover art kicks Sunflower's in the dust.



Right, Friends and Holland are overrated, but not those in between. ;D

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits. Who is the guy with the most prominent backing vocals on most tracks? Sunflower is the first album since Pet Sounds where Brian sounds like he cared enough again to go the extra mile. I do agree that it's also the first album where the rest of the band solidly proved that they had creative talent of their own. These two factors collide to make Sunflower one of the band's best records.

Brian did have a lot to do with the album. Of the ones put out from 20/20 through Holland, Sunflower is the one he tried hardest on.

"My friend Bob, he got a job..." ;D

Yes, Brian's name is on many tracks, but listening to them they don't sound Brianish to me, except This Whole World which, except for the drums, does, and Cool Cool Water. The other songs, Brian may have added stuff, but didn't make them Brian style songs the way, say, TWGMTR is. Of course everybody's free to disagree with me, I may be wrong. :)

I don't think this album is overrated. This Whole World, Forever, All I Wanna Do (if anything this song is underrated as evidenced by its non-inclusion on MiC) and Cool Cool Water are all classics. Our Sweet Love and Deirdre are also really pretty songs.

Add Some Music is the one song I would say is maybe overrated.

Got to Know the Woman is the weakest of the set and they had stronger songs available. Dennis's Lady for one.

I think This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love and At My Window are all "very Brian". It's probably debatable how much he had to do with the actual production of CCW and All I Wanna Do but in terms of composition they were pretty much his I think.

Looks like roughly 19 responses suggest it's not overrated, 4-5 suggest it is, with 4-5 on the fence.

I rank 'em like this: PS, Today, Sunflower. After that it becomes a lot more subjective and subject to mood change. Those top three, however, have been solid and unwavering for a long time, and they happen to exactly reflect this board's rankings. Those who believe that Sunflower is over-reated are entitled to their opinions, but they seem to be a small minority.

And why should you care? Why should anyone care?

A great Beach Boys album is a great Beach Boys album. What difference does it make if it's all Brian or a "democratic" creation?

If it really matters, maybe you're listening to writing credits and not the music.

You mean me? Dude, maybe you didn't read what I wrote here:


If you think I disagree with you in this case, you're wrong.

Sunflower would be beat by a Surf's Up album featuring 4th Of July and WIBNTLA imo. Both showcase an excellent group effort as opposed to the stellar effort of Brian during the 1965-67 album years.

According to Al, Brian had very little to do with At My Window. I think Al's name comes first on the credits, presumably for this reason.

Ah, that's cool, I did assume the vocal arrangements at least must've been Brian's work.

Purely on harmonies alone (and we know he did much more) Brian excelled on Sunflower.

There's a tad too much sentimentality and schmaltz (something which the group were usually careful to keep in check, despite their slightly cloying rep) but mostly it's very strong and I certainly wouldn't say its over-rated (although I think Holland is a more coherent and better album). Desper's production is frequently stunning, in particular on All I Wanna Do.

GREAT SONGS:

Slip On Through
This Whole World
It's About Time
All I Wanna Do
Forever

VERY GOOD SONGS:

Got To Know The Woman
Our Sweet Love
Cool Cool Water

GOOD SONGS

Add Some Music To Your Day
Diedre

NOT THEIR BEST

At My Window

REALLY NOT FOR ME...

Tears In The Morning

Replace TITM with Lady and AMW with San Miguel (the songs opening would've worked great coming in after Our Sweet Love's extended final note and would've really kicked things up a gear coming after two sweet romantic ballads) and you've got yourself an absolute stone-cold classic gem (albeit a slightly more Dennis-centred album - sorry Al and Bruce, he was just a better writer than you...)

At My Window-like Deirdre I think you can put Brian down for input mainly on the brief lead parts he sings. Likely he wrote some of those lines (in fact I know Brian got his maid to give him the French bits). Al was behind the music track, it was originally meant for a cover of Raspberries and Strawberries, a Kingston Trio song.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, omnipresent and all-present mean the same thing.

As to the original question: No, it's not overrated; and no, it doesn't need defending.

Agreed! Desper's work on this album is out of this world. The sound he got on those songs play a major role in why I rate this as one of my alltime favourite albums.

By the way, has anyone compiled a discography on all the recordings projects Desper had a hand in besides the Beach Boys? I'd love to investigate further if he supplied that warm & organic sound to other recordings...

Do you mean Al knocked off another band's tune? Surely not... ;)

This is a discussion on opinions of course, but I am not the biggest Sunflower fan. A solid album, but I find Surfs Up more interesting. I like it as an album better than 20/20 because the songs fit together better, but I feel the creativity of Surfs Up is greater. Although, Surfs Up would perhaps even rival SMiLE if Dennis had a few of his songs replace Feet, SDT and the title track (because its a SMiLE song).

More like reinvented it ala Cotton Fields.

Sunflower is a personal album for me because it is the first album I listened to when I started to "dig deep" with the Beach Boys. Hearing Dennis on "Slip on Through" really showed me that this wasn't "my mother's Beach Boys." This Whole World remains my favorite track of the Boys so opening this strongly for me makes Sunflower a strong album. I happen to like both of the Bruce tracks here so for me it is a no doubt Top 3 Beach Boys album, right up there with Today! and Smile on my personal list (like Brian Wilson himself I find that I have to be in a certain mood for Pet Sounds)....

Not over rated at all to me. Frankly, I think it's their best group effort. Also for me, one of the first albums I listened to by the Boys when I thought "hmmmmm, this doesn't sound like Surfin USA". But I loved it, and it is still my personal favorite to this day.

I agree in that I think SF is over rated and SU is under rated except I would not get rid of TALOYF or SDT because they are part of the BBs charm of the album to me. I recognize the brilliance of Dennis' music but it does not connect with me emotionally so I would not regret the addition of some of his songs but I don't regret their exclusion either. Probably just me.

I always found the claim that this album was "democratic" confusing.  All of the best songs on the album were written by either Brian or Dennis.  While it's more democratic than the albums that preceded it (aside from 20/20, which I think has less Brian on it than Sunflower), Brian is still the dominant creative force here in a way that he would not be on the three subsequent albums (in which his contributions tend to be strong but scarce).

As for the album, I wouldn't call it my favorite or even put it in my top 5, but it is a very strong one.  I don't particularly like "Tears in the Morning" and find "At My Window" dull, but in the albums defense, I submit "This Whole World," "Got to Know the Woman" (I don't get why some people don't like this song), "All I Wanna Do," "Forever," and "Cool, Cool Water." 

I never listen to the entire lp as I sometimes do with PS,Love You, Friends, or Holland.  some great cuts and super sonic recording.  I really don't like that DW macho posturing alt though I understand including that sort of song in that time period.   Macho rock gods were prancing all over the place back then.  It doesn't age well ov the years

With Cotton Fields kicking it off (as it does on the British LP, if I'm not mistaken) -- Sunflower is fantastic.  I believe that's why it did so much better in Europe than in the States.  It's just better with Cotton Fields starting it off.  It sets the table for the listener -- preparing them for what's to come... a rootsy album.  Thus, the album makes sense.  A different Beach Boys.

I heard of Sunflower before I actually heard Sunflower... so the hype inflated expectations.  It was kind of a let down, as a result.  I enjoyed discovering Friends, Wild Honey and Smiley more.  They just seem artsier.  Raw.  Something had changed on Sunflower.  Brian was not in charge, I suppose.

(http://www.menziesera.com/music/images/beachboys_1970.jpg)

This was a hard time for the Beach Boys, and it shows.  Minus the post-Dennis years (if you even consider that "the Beach Boys") -- it was probably their toughest time.  Too young to quit, and not sure who they should be for Halloween.  (Mike's pretending to be a guru.  Alan's a cowboy.  Bruce is Gilligan.  Brian's just distracted.  And Carl's, like "whatever.")  They're not comfortable.  Identity-crisis -- like some sort of awkward adolescence.

If Brian didn't want to do it... I really wish Denny could have commanded the lead.  (See?  Look... Denny's comfortable.)  But there's a lot of good stuff from everyone.  There's a lot going on, in general.  Lots of different directions.  It's hard to assess it clearly.

You know... thinking about it, I really wish they'd compile a "Landlocked" box set.  Legacy Edition or something?!  Just something to make sense of this era.  It could be arranged by session, chronologically for all I care.  Preferably so, perhaps.

That's one of the things that kind of upsets me a bit about the MiC box. Another career retrospective?  ::)  There's just too much, so many eras, of the band that need exploring... I don't need another career retrospective.

And I don't buy the line, for one second, that there isn't "interest" or a market for this stuff.  This is the Beach Boys for crying out loud.  Not the Bulgarian Folk Ensemble.  They can release the Doors albums every two years, and have a great series of live shows.

Sorry... just tired today...  :(

Yeah, I had the same experience. Before I had actually ever heard the album, I had read about how great it was. One website I read had said it was considered to be the best album after Pet Sounds and was considered The Beach Boys' Sgt. Pepper.

So, I excitedly bought the new 180g vinyl reissue of the record and sat down to play it. I was a bit... disappointed. It certainly wasn't the album I was expecting. But, the album has grown on me since then, and I like it more than I used to.

I first heard Sunflower about 6 months after release. It was a total surprise to me, as I hadn't read or heard anything about it prior to release. I was blown away by Slip On Through and so much so that to this day I can still remember thinking that if the rest was as good as this first track, then I am in for a real treat... and I was. Forty plus years later, I still rank it as my #2 favorite Beach Boys album, after the Today album. It's an album that always puts me in a nice place every time I listen to it.

Me too.  I love the album a lot now.  One of the silly (but nice) things about re-buying the album again in its 2012 Remaster form, is it gets it off that blasted two-fer format -- and just helped it get more play-time.  Sounds better too.

I do prefer Cotton Fields as the lead-off.  Hearing it that way is when the album *SNAPPED!* into place for me.  

"When I was a little-bitty baby..."  And everything was aaalllll-right.

 :tm

saw and bought the lp in September 1970. was excited on the way home. loved it at first listen. still do. don't think it's overrated at all. classic in my book.

I didn't see the light when it comes to 'Tears In The Morning' until I heard the instrumental w/backing vocals version.

Personally I think 'At My Window' and 'Deirdre' are throw-aways, and 'ASMTYD' is highly overrated. The rest of the album however is really great (except maybe 'Got to Know a Woman' which is fun, but a little meh); '
This Whole World' is outta this world, and 'Our Sweet Love' has resemblance to GOK (enough said).

"As Steve Mayo Takes Your Doritos", I assume.

I thought "ASMTYD" meant "All Summer Murray Tried Yoga, Dammit."

An album in which there are songs like "All I Wanna Do", "This Whole World", "Forever", "At My Window", "Deirdre" or "Our Sweet Love" NEVER could be overrated.

Also, damn it, this is such a great album and breaks my heart to see people here, of all places, saying they don't like it because they were let down or they just don't like it. Top 3 for me, probably.

Anyone else have the 1990 single CD? Is there a sound difference between this and the 2fer?

Sunflower most deservedly was on  Rolling Stone Magazine's first batch of the top 500 albums. It is a fully realized album with a balance of contributions from all of  The Beach Boys. Everyone may have their preferred or disliked tracks, but as a whole, contemporary beach Boys album, it stands out in their catalog.

It was a let down for me because, as a casual fan getting more serious and not being familiar with much beyond Pet Sounds, it was not what I expected.  Shallow, I know, but true.  To me, Pet Sounds was the culmination of everything the Boys had done prior.  This to me was a big veer away from that.  I hadn't followed the bands dramas-- their addictions, spats, etc., and expected to hear something that resembled their prior work.  This so wasn't that.

Sunflower has grown on me since.  This Whole World is one of my favorite BB tracks.  You all praise the production quality.  I think it stinks, at least when it comes to bg vocals.  The harmonies are there-- they're just really, really thin.  Where did the lushness go?  I also still don't like Diedre or Tears in the Morning.  I think it comes down to perspective.  This album doesn't require context to enjoy, but it does require context to love.  

Is it possible for ANYTHING by The Beach Boys that is neither Pet Sounds or SMILE to be overrated???

Sunflower is one of the worst selling albums in history.... Overrated????

My first experience of Sunflower was the tracks on disc 3 of the GV box. A couple of years later I got the Stateside (UK) vinyl version and enjoyed the superb production, rich, deep bass and gorgeous songs. Not overrated at all...
In a two-fer with Surf's Up, probably the Beach Boys cd that visits my player most often...

I, as usual, bought one of the few copies sold upon its release. Man, has it been a hassle being a Beach Boys' fan or what?

Like so many post fun-in-sun releases Sunflower took some getting used to -so light and airy in an era dominated by a much heavier sound - Allman Brothers anyone?

Still, a beautiful work that reveals itself gradually.

By the way - the original release was presented in Quadrophonic sound, a four channel format that never took off. I wonder if any thought has been given to making that available again? I'm pretty sure that would alter the experience of listening to this classic dramatically.
 

My thoughts exactly. Most people don't even know this album exists.

whats the story with cottonfields?...... why did they not include it on the US version..... was it not big in US???....

also, do people think it adds to the album? or detracts?......

I have heard it all my life without, and thinking with it included, sounds like a record company move..... throw in a hit to sell the album....

are there more specifics??

RickB

 #151 in Billboard charts in summer of 1970. Overrated?

Since the day I first heard it 43 years ago, Sunflower has been my all time favorite album by anyone, anywhere, at any time.

I still remember getting home and putting on the album on the turntable (more than a dozen years before the advent of CDs!).  I sat there absolutely transfixed while listening to the music contained in the record grooves - incredibly great songs with lush harmonies and a wonderfully enveloping soundstage from engineer Stephen Desper.  Sunflower is one of those albums where there is so much cool stuff going on vocally and musically that I have never tired of listening to it.

Since so many Americans in 1970 were not interested in checking out new music from the Beach Boys, considering them to be an uncool relic from the past, it is more than gratifying to me that the album is today considered one of the group's very best.

Incredibly great songs:
Forever
This Whole World
Add Some Music to Your Day

Really Great Songs:
Slip On Through
All I Wanna Do
At My Window
Got to Know the Woman
Our Sweet Love
Cool Cool Water

Very Good Songs:
Dierdre
It's About Time

Song that I wish would have been replaced by San Miguel:
Tears in the Morning.

I really like Tears in the Morning. Actually I really like pretty much everything Bruce ever wrote for group. Maybe I should re-post this in the Unpopular Opinions thread?  :-D

Top Ten UK hit but bombed in the US.

This is also a guess/speculation, so happy to be corrected - as we know Cottonfields was a Capitol records release in the US, while Sunflower was Reprise/Warners.

However, the UK releases of both were through EMI (licensing the Capitol lable for CF, and licensing Sunflower and releasing on the Stateside label), so the ownership rights may have allowed for the inclusion of the former on the latter. 

Wish they'd used the mono version instead of the fake stereo version tho.

Thanks Alan for that........I didn't even think about the Capitol/Warner-Reprise label thing......

Cheers,

RickB

 :listening You're sitting in a dentist's chair

And muzaks playing for you there.


Now, how can you beat lyrics like that?

or maybe Gilligan is Bruce.  ;D

the world could come together as one...

if everybody under the sun......     bit of ol' Mikey lyrics there eh?   ;D

RickB

You really should! :-D

Agree completely. That doesn't mean, however, that it is the band's Sgt Pepper, as its Wikipedia page states.

Nobody published has actually called it that,  including the cited link (the Pitchfork review of the Sunflower/Surf's Up two-fer). I hope a Wikipedian changes that.

But Gabo, we are all Wikipedians. You possess the power to do these great things and if you believe in yourself, you can achieve anything.





But seriously, the new visual editor has greatly simplified the process. An edit like that would take > 20 seconds.

Call me insane, but I think At My Window is the best song on Sunflower. Just listen to those amazing harmonies. Bruce's voice suits this song perfectly. Oh boy, and when Brian adds his 'fly away' in the tag, holy sh*t.

I mentioned this earlier but it passed without further comment.  I must be the only one who thinks the bg vocals and harmonies on Sunflower seem distant, almost purposely un-lush, even cartoonishly thin.  

UPDATE: I used to think it was just the production and the final product of mixing, but the a cappella version of This Whole World on MIC seems to disprove that theory.  Carl's lead is very full and lush, but listening to the bg vox without music, it seems almost like they were purposely sung "thin."

It's the bit when the accordion comes in and seems to suddenly increase and then decrease in volume that gets me!

I don't get the dislike for At My Window either.  It's such a pretty little tune.  Could have come straight off "Wild Honey" or "Friends."  LOVE IT.

 :shrug

While programming my track order for Sunflower to include "Cotton Fields" as the lead off, I moved "Got to Know the Woman" to after "Deidre" -- rather than as the jarring interruption after the beautiful "Add Some Music."

Turns out, that's exactly what they did on the UK release, too!!   :-D  Never noticed that!

UK Sunflower
Cotton Fields
Slip On Through
This Whole World
Add Some Muzak
Deidre
Got To Know the Woman
etc...

I used the 20/20 version of Cotton Fields (or should I use the single version??) with the 2000 Sunflower remaster... since they sound similar, mastering-wise.  I hope ya'll give'r a try!!

Me too. Love Brian's spoken part with the beautiful accordeon part underneath. I don't mind it's essentially a rewrite of Raspberries Strawberries, as the BB clearly made it their own song. When I first heard Sunflower I thought At My Window was incredibly cute, in a good way. It's such a sweet and innocent little song with such a powerful coda.

I think Forever, All I Wanna Do and This Whole World are masterpieces. Not keen on Got to Know the Woman or Deidre; otherwise love it - but I've always preferred Surf's Up. Would love to have a Sunflower 'sessions' box. I'm sure they could come up with another couple of discs to complement the album as is, even if they weren't all necessarily slated for the final album.

BTW count me as one of those who likes Tears in the Morning. For me, it's Bruce's other good track.

I tried it out.

I felt like "Cotton Fields" was a good opener with the few notes that are picked in the beginning. But, I felt like the transition to "Slip on Through" was a bit odd. Both make great openers, but don't work so well back to back. "Slip on Through" is a good opener because it starts quiet and and gets bigger, but that atmosphere is kind of ruined by it following "Cotton Fields."

I did like "Dierdre" following "Add Some Music to Your Day." It kinda has the same feeling and the intro is very nice and a suitable follow up. So, no complaints there.

I personally think the harmonies sound gorgeous and full on Sunflower. And it's also a matter of taking in the IDEA of what's being sung as much as simply hearing it.... The most recent Sunflower reissue (on Spotify at least) sounds a bit better than the 2000 2-fer, but if you really want proof the vocals weren't sung thin (I think I get what you mean by that upon listening) check out Desper's Cool Cool Water tutorial!

The background vox on Sunflower are EQ'd and compressed to seem rather narrow- they aren't big and full in most places, even though the arrangements are big and full. This would be Desper's touch- the engineer and mixing engineer have the power to do that. That is how he felt they complemented the music best, in context. Now, we may or may not agree with him but it is part of the aesthetic he was after, no doubt.

Perhaps the album is overrated by some. I don't know. I do know that 25 years ago I got a copy of the sunflower/surf's up twofer on cassette, and those albums blew me away because I was hearing very post-60's music and big, stereo productions with the lush sounding, YOUNG sounding vocals. Albums that followed those tended to have the rough, abrasive harmonies that would characterize the group during the '70s. The songs on Sunflower really resonated with me, too, and they're all just very listenable tracks. Some even have a dynamic energy that demands my attention.

So the point is, not everyone has the same taste in music. It is, however, well-crafted music and showcases most of the members of the group in very good form.

Aric

I don't know, I think for the most part they're still pretty lush.  Have you listened to the a capella Slip on Through yet? 

Admittedly, there was less sort of pure double tracking, since Desper was playing around with stereo miking and such.  But goodness, I think the backing vocals are as good as it got on Sunflower.  The youth is starting to fade, but the skill and professionalism and versatility is really at its peak.  They were consummate by that point.

I'm a sequence freak, and Sunflower always seemed all over the place to me. I like to use this sequence; I like the flow and especially the lyrical sequence:

01 Add Some Music To Your Day
02 Got To Know The Woman
03 Slip On Through
04 Our Sweet Love
05 All I Wanna Do
06 Forever

07 Tears In The Morning
08 At My Window
09 This Whole World
10 Deidre
11 Cool, Cool Water
12 It's About Time

Good points.  Frankly, it's a big deal to fck with an album opener.  However, what I liked about Cotton Fields was it wasn't too demanding.  It kind of eased me in.  Sunflower's kind of a "heavy" album, and I liked the open, easy intro that CF gave it.


Yes and yes.  Honestly this might be the all that's needed.  I really feel like all the dislike we're seeing of Got To Know The Woman is related to it's position in the track list.  I shared similar dislike for this track.  However, I actually loved it following Deidre.  Kind of put some punch back, when it needs it.

I don't hate Sunflower. But its not in my top 5 Beach Boys albums.

I love:
At My Window
Its About Time
All I Wanna Do
This Whole World

Meh:
Add Some Music
Got to Know the Woman
Slip On Through
Cotton Fields (although, I don't have the UK version)

I always thought It's About Time would have made a great opening track and even a single along with This Whole World. IMO would have been a better push the ASM or SOT.

Desper was great at making the harmonies really pop out, but I'll agree that way the vocals are EQ'd makes them sound thinner - precisely because certain frequencies are purposefully repressed. At times, such as on the tag of "This Whole World", I believe it also gave the vocals a slightly mechanical and overly sharp sound. It's a little too artificial.

Agreed.  I love Sunflower, especially This Whole World, but every time I hear it (including the new a cappella version of This Whole World from MIC), I can't help but think how much better I'd like it if the vocals weren't mechanical/thin/repressed.  I respect Mr. Desper, but if that's what he was going for on that album I couldn't disagree more.

Sunflower took me a while to get into, and there a couple songs that don't work for me - namely, Got to Know the Woman and It's About Time (sorry, folks). But the rest of it is the post-smile 6 piece band at its peak. Superbly enjoyable with Dennis' best song - Slip On Through - and one of Brian's last true masterpieces in This Whole World. So no, it's definitely not overrated. That award EASILY goes to.... drum roll.... Holland.

No, Love You! ;D

Sunflower is in no way overrated. It's full of exceptional songs, great signing and melodies that put The Beach Boys back on top of their game. I love the album, always have, and it is indeed up there with Pet Sounds as one of the great albums of all time.

:) Mark

I remember reading (from the 2000 liners?) that they recorded Sunflower in a natural, real stereo fashion.  Meaning, I assume, something like two mics in an open room, or something, to more simulate a binaural sound-field.

Anyway... I think we need a nice audiophile remastering of Sunflower, to fully appreciate the work/effort made by the engineers.  The 2000 remaster sounds a little congested, and the 2012 remaster just brightened it up with more treble and slightly better/clearer sonics.

Rick - I was wadding through an older thread earlier and found a post from Alan Boyd about the Cottonfields inclusion, here's the relevant highlight (a link to the full post is below):

"...COTTON FIELDS was never intended to be included on an album, although EMI - which had distribution rights in Europe for the first two Brother Records albums on their Stateside label - saw fit to add the song to their initial release of SUNFLOWER, and somebody at Stateside took a mono single master, made it duophonic (yecch) and it appeared as the first song on side one of the European Stateside Records SUNFLOWER."

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,1203.msg26330.html#msg26330

Forever, while a great song obviously, could have been so much better if it was recorded in the same quality as This Whole World, Slip On Through or It's About Time for example. Its production somehow always bugs me.

It really seems like The Beach Boys can hardly do a damn thing right by so many of their fans..........

It was one of the first recorded, so it would have been on 8-track, so I'd imagine there were a couple reduction mixes done.

No kidding, Sunflower is one of the best albums ever made. I understand debating the later stuff, I understand some songs are better than others or appeal to different tastes. Myself though, I mostly see 1961-73 as a goldmine that keeps giving.

I love - LOVE!!!! - pretty much every single album from 1963 - 1979 (with 15 Big Ones and MIU being the only ones I merely quite like). With some Smiley Smiler's I do often find myself thinking, "Are you sure you actually like this band at all...????"

I thought this from the first day that I came here.There are quite a few in here that think nothing was great except for Pet Sounds and Smile. You know you're a real fan when you can find redeeming value in SIP. :)

I absolutely love the title track!! Love it. Great song. I was over the moon to see it's (live) inclusion on MIC.

I do think 15 Big Ones, M.I.U., Still Cruisin' and SIP are bad albums. I do think BB85 and KTSA are lackluster. Despite that, there are songs on 15BO, M.I.U., KTSA and BB85 that I think are quite good. Not really so with SC and SIP, but hey.

But I love every BBs album from 1962 until 1973, and I of course really think Love You is amazing and LA Light Album is decent and all I've heard from TWGMTR so far is great...I dunno what kind of fan that makes me.
 

Whether you actually like it makes no difference, but Kokomo is a quality song from SC.

'Kokomo' is the best original song on Still Cruisin', absolutely. And I can think of quite a few other BBs songs that I like less than 'Kokomo'.