The Smiley Smile Message Board

Listening to Sagittarius Present Tense today, and there's Bruce on this terrific cut. Haven't seen any comment here concerning his work with Curt Boettcher. There's some info on Wikipedia, which situates this work in the category of Sunshine Pop (as opposed to Baroque Pop - ceesh let's split hairs). But the writer unequivocally connects the sub-genre to the work of Brian Wilson, which is unavoidable I suppose. Which got me thinking of the road not travelled and the stylistic turn away from Rock n Roll made by the Beach Boys, and how Friends and especially Sunflower fit that Sunshine Pop form.

Anyway, I seem to recall hearing My World Fell down on the radio, I guess June 67, but it seems to have been buried by the arrival of Pepper. And the Bee Gees that month also appeared with 1941 Mining Disaster, which some thought might be the Beatles in disguise. 1941 MD sure sounds like Pepper. And so might My World Fell Down. Such was the slightly off-center Zeitgeist of that time. It literally felt like a door had opened revealing whole new, heretofore unimagined vistas. I can still taste it.  Probably the great Pluto-Uranus square. Which, by the way, is recurring even now. I'd say Mr Wilson is cooking up something quite tasty - if, that is, he is tuned in.

It's a good song and a good album. I have it on cd.. yeah according to the liner notes this song had a snippet of "Smile" in it (the bullfighting), or the rumor goes, but was disproven...

Really, though, "My World Fell Down" is more of a Gary Usher joint than anything else. It was cut before Boettcher came into the fold. Great track and I love how identifiable Bruce is - one of those things where you know straight away who that is. I know everyone says that's Glen Campbell doing the lead, but I'm fairly skeptical. Sounds like him but the phrasing is way off.

"Present Tense" is a fantastic album, goes hand in hand with "Begin". Too bad about the mix, though.

"Too bad about the mix, though"

How do you mean?

I don't care for the mix on the album. The double tracked vocals are split into each channel most of the time, it takes away from the strength and unity of Boettcher's voice. The purpose (in my mind) of a double tracked vocal is to fortify and blend. When you separate them, there is no unity.

Mix on "My World Fell Down" is worse, though - with lead vocal shoved into one corner. Mono single mix is better, but than it has all that SMiLE-esque bullfight nonsense. Strange situation - they put the more commercial mix on the album and release the longer version out as a single. Makes no sense. Likewise "Hotel Indiscreet" - that interlude on the single mix damn near ruins the song.

Wow I dont recall where I first heard the single MWFD or how long ago it was, probably dl'ed from a torrent -- but one day about 3-4 years ago I was on a "record trek" in western Indiana and scored a like new copy of the vinyl LP Sagittarius for a buck. That was a great find for my collection! 

"...that interlude on the single mix damn near ruins the song."

I tend to agree with you on that point. Less is generally more, and the sudden intrusion of a seemingly irrelevant diversion might be construed as simple indulgence. Still, I do recall warm summer nights spent on the other side of the portal, wandering off for an eon down some obscure and winding path of intriguing fancy, only to be suddenly flashed back to the moment. And have never been the same.

A word of advice - If you should ever chose to drop a tab at Palisades Amusement Park - STAY AWAY FROM THE HOUSE OF MIRRORS!

Do you know if MWFD single version was on one of the Nuggets compilations? That might have been the first time I heard it as I am sure it was well before the "computer age" - I remember that song immediately struck me like "Is this the Beach Boys"? Naw.

Here's a short review nicked off Amazon:

"This extraordinary collection of recordings is perhaps the jewel in the crown of two legendary California singer-songwriter-arranger-producers: Gary Usher and Curt Boettcher. While it was released as an album (all of whose 11 original tracks are included here), its confluence of original sources makes this something of a collective, rather than a group album.

The roots of these recordings lay in Usher's overflowing fountain of creativity. Having written, produced and recorded dozens of albums in a short period of time (often alone or with studio musicians and pals), he found his role as a top producer at Columbia (Simon & Garfunkel, The Byrds, etc.) to be limiting. He began to spend off-hours in the studio creating new works, and after failing to pitch Chad & Jeremy on the song "My World Fell Down" (previously recorded by the UK's Ivy League), decided to record it himself. Usher gathered elements of the legendary Wrecking Crew, along with Beach Boy Bruce Johnston and touring Beach Boy Glen Campbell (who sang lead) to wax what would become a #70 hit.

Interestingly, modern day listeners probably know "My World Fell Down" more from its inclusion on Lenny Kaye's original "Nuggets" compilation than they do from the original single or album release. The relative success of the single did bring a demand from label head Clive Davis for more, and Usher quickly began assembling material from the fictional Sagittarius (named after his astrological sign), eventually in conjunction with up-and-coming star Curt Boettcher.

Boettcher's early work with the group Ballroom yielded several tracks for the album, including the original recordings of "Would You Like To Go" and "Musty Dusty, as well as several more songs ("Another Time" "Song to the Magic Frog" and "Keep of the Games") that were re-recorded. It's a mark of Usher and Boettcher's synchronicity that the previously-recorded works fit the Sagittarius album so perfectly. Though produced a bit less lushly than the multi-voiced orchestrations they'd purpose-build for the album, the tone matched the album's slightly-high autumnal pop. At turns this is mindful of Brian Wilson's more complex works, the intense vocal arrangements that Boettcher pioneered with The Association, and the bubblegum psychedelia of The Lemon Pipers and Strawberry Alarm Clock.

What began as a downtime hobby for Usher turned into a full-blown collaboration with Boettcher, and an album with an extraordinary ratio of latter-day-collectability versus at-the-time-purchase. Sundazed's masterful CD reissue augments the original album with nine bonus tracks, seven of which are previously unreleased. Most importantly, the original single versions of "My World Fell Down" and "Hotel Indiscreet" display the odd bridges that Usher was forced (by Columbia) to edit away for the album. The former's middle part is a melange of bullfight music, baby cries and alarm clocks, while the latter includes an unusual spoken-word passage from Usher's then-recent label signing, The Firesign Theater. Firesign's Peter Bergman turns up again (as he did on many Usher productions of the era) on "Mass #586." Also of great interest is Boettcher's demo of "The Keeper of the Games," highlighting his singing in a setting that is much less ornate than usual for his finished works.

Dawn Eden's liner notes are terrific, and additional song notes flesh out some of the compositional and recording history. The original engineering of Roy Halee and Tom May has left us with sparkling clean tapes of a California masterpiece."

California dreaming sunshine pop masterpiece  -    By hyperbolium
5.0 out of 5 stars   July 14, 2005                                                                                                             

"Musty Dusty" - Is that Bruce's lead?

No, that's Curt. lead on "MWFD" is some dude called... Glen Campbell. I'm odd, I prefer the single version. BTW, song was written by John Carter of The Ivy League.

That's Glen Campbell !?!

Wow, yeah, hmmm...

Now I'm listening to Tommy Roe's Paisley Dreams. Sounds just like Present Tense.

I love MWFD, and like the middle section and FX insert just where it is, thank you. It is of the time. Is there truth in the tale of the middle section being spliced in after Usher "borrowed" the Good Vibrations master tape prior to it's release?

Not a patch on GV, but a wonderful, wonderful track nonetheless.

And what are your thoughts on Millennium's Begin, TM?

Into our 5th day of a heatwave here in the Blasted North, I thought that album should have a spin today. I absolutely adore it. When those drums kick in on the intro. WAY ahead of its time. My favourite cut though - The Island

And the Ballroom material? my 7 yr old often asks for Spinning, Spinning, Spinning, and Would You Like To Go?

"Daddy, what is this song about?"

 :brian

Going by a roughly 10-year old memory here but I seem to recall one of the players in the Pet Sounds Sessions booklet talking about a "baby noise" in GV that was a tribute to his then recently born child... I bet he was actually thinking of My World Fell Down.

I think it's great, especially the single version. It wouldn't surprise me if the "wish it didn't feel like winter" organ bit was 'inspired' by Good Vibrations. The other rumour (aside from the bogus music concrete having been directly stolen) is the 'music box' winding down at the end being 'inspired' by SMiLE.

None whatsoever. Aside from any other consideration (like Columbia tapebox labels showing how the section was constructed), "GV" had already been released some three months before "MWFD" was recorded.

Honestly, I have a hard time believing this is true. There is something missing from the voice on that record to make me think it's someone else. Unless Gary told him to eliminate the way he sang on all of his other records.

Listen to The Ballroom version - same basic recording, and to the best of my knowledge, Bruce wasn't a part of that project.

The Ivy Leagues original version of this is just as good...not an easy one to find on uk 45, must have flopped pretty badly.

Oh- and whether it's Glen Campbell on vocals or not isn't really a matter for discussion...it just is! Well documented to be him, and it sounds exactly the same tonally as 'guess I'm dumb'...not quite as country inflected as his more famous work, granted, but that's not what he was going for in this situation.

Sorry, my post was confusing. I meant Glen on MWFD. I totally agree Bruce is nowhere near Musty Dusty.

So much vibrant overflowing creativity in that era. Where is it today?

"And what are your thoughts on Millennium's Begin, TM?"

I'm just gonna give the four albums that I've got a good listen in the coming days Mr. Newcomb. Ballroom, Present Tense, Blue Marble, Millenium (is that right? I'm getting to be like Benny Goodman who eventually could only identify tunes by...the tune)

They've been in the closet for years. And for a long time I've had little patience for psychedelia. But now I seem to hear it anew. Stone Ponies-Evergreen. Sitars...

I got this record when I bought my condo in 2003. The previous owner and I were talking and she had a little record collection. Whenever anyone has vinyl I love to look so I saw this and got her to throw it in with my purchase! Anyhow I would like a blend of the 45 and LP mix. Just cut out the damn baby crying noise and I am set. Great record and Bruce and I have talked about it on BBB. He said he didn't think Brian knew of it, but it is a Smile drenched record that Brian would be flattered by if he never heard it.

"it is a Smile drenched record that Brian would be flattered by if he never heard it."

I wonder what you mean by this?

Might want to listen to "The Blue Marble" lp, too. Good album but PT was stronger.

I will. Thanks for the head's-up.

In the underground.

Not quite - it doesn't have the 'bullfight' section. That seems to have been entirely Usher's creation (btw, I kept reading about his work with Simon & Garfunkel but couldn't find a single sleeve credit: then someone told me he helped assemble "Voices of Old People").

Change never to ever. Used the wrong word.

I went through a period of listening to My World Fell Down constantly for a few months. I'm interested in the two versions mentioned. I've only heard one.

Yeah, I knew he came up with that bit...but it's not an essential part of the track for me. I'm more familiar with the lp version too.

The Ivy League version is less expensive sounding, but has a great string arrangement. I was familiar with Sagittarius first, but now I just couldn't choose between them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W318IVEVGUU (didn't post it yesterday cos it's someone's memorial video, but it IS the right track)

This version- I can take or leave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLjticVB_ns


RE: Gary Ushe/S+G...I wonder if he had anything to do with the synths on Bookends, if he was around at that time? That was recorded a little before 'Blue Marble', wasn't it?

PS- Blue Marble is one of the few times I found something in a charity shop that I had previously bid for and lost on ebay. 3/4 years ago, Oxfam, 10p (due to the vast quantity of records I was buying) mint in the shrink. Result!

My opinion of this song has changed just a bit. I think it's a neat tune, almost like a cool curiosity piece to play for people who have never heard it, but at the same time it has been sounding more and more contrived to my ears. I don't care for the term "sunshine pop" at all, so I rarely if ever use that tag on any music, but would a common term be "psychedelia" or "psychedelic" to describe My World Fell Down? Under that label, I think it sounds more like an effort to cash in on what was going on in some circles, with more musical knowledge, sophistication, and perhaps a bigger budget (?).

At the same time it feels like there may be a key element or two missing from what made certain records (IMO) truly psychedelic if we apply the literal definition of that term. Any band can apply certain effects or vocal tricks and have someone say "that's psychedelic", but when you listen to the real (intentional or unintentional) psychedelia - of course that will always be debated - you'll hear certain things both obvious and not which really define that category of music.

Going with the long version of this tune, the addition of a sound collage and bullfight noises does not make the tune psychedelic, nor do a series of very well done vocal harmonies.

Again, it's a cool song and a very well performed and produced one as well, but to borrow some of the vernacular, the song does not have the peak or the euphoric moment that some of the hallmark records of psychedelic music share. And if you need examples I'll throw out a few which could lead to some disagreements.

My World Fell Down and Another Time are among the very best songs that anyone recorded in the 1960s, if you ask me. But most other songs on Present Tense and The Blue Marble are nowhere near as good as those two. There's some pretty cheesy stuff on those albums. And I really don't like Curt Boettcher's voice at all. Which is a shame, because he sang on some pretty good music throughout his career...

 the song does not have the peak or the euphoric moment that some of the hallmark records of psychedelic music share. And if you need examples I'll throw out a few which could lead to some disagreements.
[/quote]

Please do!

Question: How do you get the quote function here to work without quoting the entire post?

The first time I ever heard "My World Fell Down" was on Lenny Kaye's "Nuggets" collection on vinyl. I can't remember if it's the LP or 45 version of the song on that album. I wasn't that into the Beach Boys at the time, only having a greatest hits compilation, but I could definitely hear a Beach Boys' influence. I'm surprised it wasn't a bigger hit. It would have fit in with middle-of-the-road radio station music as well as Top 40.

Same here. It led me to seek out Present Tense (and, via that, Begin) and I am forever grateful. "Song to the Magic Frog" is my personal fave from PT. Excessively sugary, but appealingly so.

From Wikipedia:

"Psychedelia is a name given to the subculture of people who use psychedelic drugs, and a style of psychedelic artwork and psychedelic music derived from the experience of altered consciousness that uses highly distorted and surreal visuals, sound effects and reverberation, and bright colors and full spectrums and animation (including cartoons) to evoke and convey to a viewer or listener the artist's experience while using such drugs. The term "psychedelic" is derived from the Ancient Greek words psuchē (ψυχή - psyche, "mind") and dēlōsē (δήλωση - "manifest"), translating to "mind-manifesting".

A psychedelic experience is characterized by the striking perception of aspects of one's mind previously unknown, or by the creative exuberance of the mind liberated from its ostensibly ordinary fetters. Psychedelic states are an array of experiences including changes of perception such as hallucinations, synesthesia, altered states of awareness or focused consciousness, variation in thought patterns, trance or hypnotic states, mystical states, and other mind alterations. These processes can lead some people to experience changes in mental operation defining their self-identity (whether in momentary acuity or chronic development) different enough from their previous normal state that it can excite feelings of newly formed understanding ranging from revelation & enlightenment to the opposing polarity of confusion & psychosis."


Given the above, I'd say My World Fell Down meets the definition od Psychedelia. I don't hear the bullfight interlude working against the production at all. 

From Wikipedia:

"LSD is considered an entheogen because it can catalyze intense spiritual experiences, during which users may feel they have come into contact with a greater spiritual or cosmic order. Users claim to experience lucid sensations where they have "out of body" experiences. Some users report insights into the way the mind works, and some experience permanent shifts in their life perspective. LSD also allows users to view their life from an introspective point of view. Some users report using introspection to resolve unresolved or negative feelings towards an individual or incident that occurred in the past. Some users consider LSD a religious sacrament, or a powerful tool for access to the divine. Stanislav Grof has written that religious and mystical experiences observed during LSD sessions appear to be phenomenologically indistinguishable from similar descriptions in the sacred scriptures of the great religions of the world and the secret mystical texts of ancient civilizations.[40]"


Brian Wilson explains what's behind his musical new direction to journalist Tom Nolan sometime around November, 1966:

"About a year ago I had what I consider to be a very religious experience. I took LSD, a full dose of LSD, and later, another time, I took a smaller dose. And I learned a lot of things, like patience, understanding. I can't teach you, or tell you what I learned from taking it. But I consider it a very religious experience."

That must be the first time I heard it as well -- No one replied to my earlier post so I looked it up and the cut is 3:52 which I think is the single version.

I'll have more later when I have more time...but where I'm going with this is that musically, anyone with a good ear for production would be able to recognize and adapt the characteristics of certain "psychedelic" records, and therefore add them to a bag of tricks so to speak if the psychedelic sound was required or requested on a project. It became like adding certain ingredients to a standard recipe in order to make it "Southwestern" or "Thai" or any number of cooking styles (and trends). You could put across to listeners that a standard pop song was psychedelic by adding a few signature sounds.

And remember this is just my opinion, I'm not trying to define a term or anything for posterity, just stating what I think is the difference between that kind of recipe-based psychedelia and the real thing.

And for me, a lot of the real psychedelia that came out of the mid to late 60's and into the 70's did not contain many of the sonic hallmarks or traits than many associate with the style, or genre if it can be called that. You could lay on a heavy fuzzed-out guitar line and some trippy vocals over a certain drumbeat and that may have worked for the soundtrack of a late 60's drive-in film or an episode of "Dragnet '68" when Sgt. Friday busts some LA club kids for dealing, but that doesn't mean it's the real psychedelia.

Again, I have some examples to consider, most from the mid to late 60s, but for now consider the overall ebb and flow of a song, the way the movements may work in and out of each other and when they do that, consider in some cases the lyrical content, and in others the way that flow of the song form coincides with certain instrumental parts morphing in sound or texture, and that's along the lines of what I'm thinking.

Taking one outside of the normal 65-69 time frame, listen specifically to Shuggie Otis' "Strawberry Letter 23", the original version by Shuggie himself. The final two minutes of that record contain some of the most stunning and beautiful (and euphoric) examples of psychedelia in popular music that I think exists, and it exists that way in support of the lyrics that had come before. And listen to the whole record including the lyrics and the way each section flows leading up to that climax. Whether Shuggie intended it to be psychedelic or not, that record is a masterpiece of what I'd call psychedelic pop. Feel free to disagree. :)

Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgokn6gppvA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgokn6gppvA)

I'm not looking to disagree guitarfool - I love it!

You sure you're not talking about Gary Usher's voice? I've never heard anyone criticize Curt's pipes before, although I guess there's a first time for everything.

In response to what Craig was saying about the difference between psych-pop and "true" psychedelic music, I guess I find myself taking the opposite stance. I absolutely love it when straight pop music gets corrupted by sixties studio gimmickry! Of course there's some awful examples of this out there, which are often found on records that were produced by old-timers who were attempting to keep up with the trends of the day. I could probably throw out some examples of this if anyone was interested. But when the producer was truly dialed in, such as with Brian, Curt, Gary or Bones, the results could be otherworldly-- some of the most adventurous music to ever attain radio play, or at least attempt to. To me Present Tense, despite its pop trappings (or maybe because of them), is a thousand times more psychedelic than some throwaway LP by also-rans like Mother Earth or Autosalvage, despite the latter being "organic" and therefore "credible" with the Rolling Stone crowd. Meh, I say!  :P

There is a strain of Orientalism in the psychedelic, most obviously in the parallel between the insights gained thru spiritual discipline and the chemically induced.  One example that has recently taken me by surprise is an arabesque-like figure buried in the fade out of Cabinessence.

I have Boettcher's solo and Millennium stuff (despite his voice I do like a lot of the music that he sang on), so I guess I know what he sounds like. I think he just sounds a bit creepy and the lisping S's annoy me.

Interestingly, that's almost the exact opposite of my feelings towards them. LOVE My World Fell Down, but it just feels out of place on the rest of the album- which is an all time favourite for me. Almost as incongruous as Heroes and Villains being on Smiley Smile.

RE: The 'what is psych' question- yeah, to me My World Fell Down isn't really psych. Personally I'm more than happy with the term sunshine pop. It neatly sums up that harmony based, mostly studio based pop very well.

However, THIS is psych...unquestionably

Sagittarius- truth is not real

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-mAh7HaZT0

as are:

Ballroom- baby please don't go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vq802VbyVQ

Tintern Abbey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3CgUX0ycV4

Well, I generally love all the stuff Gary had a hand in during the latter 60s whether or not we call it sunshine pop, psychedelia, psych pop, soft pop or whatever. I would probably go for the former though - Jason's description of oldtimers trying their hand at the new sounds of the day seems pretty spot-on.  :-D

As much as I cherish My World Fell Down, I enjoy the Usher-produced Just One More Chance single by the Hondells even more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju-7jYJeoas

Oddly enough, this song was also originally recorded by a UK group and I guess then picked up by Gary & the Hondells. Perhaps inspired by the way Gary & co came across My World Fell Down?

Here's the UK version by the Outer Limits, - not bad either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usOGMJ-Bcrw

Gary & the Hondells also recorded a song called Yes to You in the same style, but I can't find it on youtube.... I think I've read that Curt Boettcher helped out on both sides...

By the way, in line with this recent discussion on My World Fell Down / Curt B / Sunshine Pop, - some weeks ago a guy posted a message in the Spectropop group about a new forum solely dedicated to Sunshine Pop / Soft Pop. Might interest a number of members here. Find the forum at:

http://www.sunshinepopforum.com/

I also discovered MWFD via the Nuggets psychedelic collection. I didn't like it overall (still don't), but the middle eight is real cool. Dig that sonic cacophony, especially short ceremony element. The lead vocal is Glen, no doubt. Don't know what is so unrecognizable about his voice. Advice to EgoHanger: listen to "Guess I'm Dumb" (very attentively), then come back to "...Fell Down", compare the 2 & you'll eventually see that the tone of the singer is the same. Generally, from technical point, Glen has an excellent voice with perfect pitch, diversity in range & vocal delivery. I'm glad that one time he was involved with The BBs.

About the genre of the song: I won't describe it as "psychedelia", because to me it's not enough whimsical, dark, outright bizarre &/or frightening. Nor shall I call it "sunshine". So, to my ears, the song falls under "baroque" category. Anyway, this thread is one of the most fascinating reads, thanks to all the contributors for such an informative discussion, YT links etc. Special thanks to Mr. TM-original poster.

I agree, The Hondells' Just One More Chance is amazing! I 1st found it, along with the latter, in Iron Leg blog & it immediately impressed me - beautiful backing track & vocs. Outer Limits' cover is nice but some of the arrangements are insipid imo.

Btw, as shelter, I don't like Curt's voice too - there's sth. about it that I find extremely grating. I'd much prefer Bruce or Sandy Salisbury than him if listen to mellow stuff. And lastly, everything on Millennium's record is boring, except It's You, the half of Karmic Dream Sequence No. 1 & bonus tracks Blight & Anthem (here we witness one of the coolest transitions ever, i.e. from trippy sound effects to ancient choir and vice versa; the reversed tag would fit any mystic or horror film). 

The tone is the same, but the phrasing is ENTIRELY different. Listen to My World Fell Down...and then anything else Glen has ever sung. I think it's too unlikely that he sang that way on one Gary Usher session. I'm not saying it isn't him, but this 100% certainty from liner note writers and reviewers shouldn't be taken lightly.

I never got to Millenium. Sidetracked by a trip out to the Coast. Saw Dennis slouching down a side street in Laguna.

Anyway, my psychelelicized attention is drawn to Hair now. Totally NYC, no BB connection that I know of.

 LBJ took the IRT
 Down to 4th Street USA
 When he got there
 What did he see?
 The youth of America on LSD