The Smiley Smile Message Board

There's some magic sprinkled on that album. I know that AGD made a post saying that Steven Desper said it was 5% Brian, while Marilyn Wilson estimated it was 25%. And yes, David Sadler did write most of the songwriting for "Sweet Mountain." I do think some of the other songs, like "Awake" (although Brian did record a piano demo that inspired part of the arrangements) or  "Mama Said", probably very little to no involvement from Brian. Oddly enough, the same can probably said of the renditions of Brian's old songs, too. Maybe Brian added a harmony or a part here or there, but that's it.

But what about "Tennessee Waltz", "Everybody", and "Down Home"? Those are covers, yes, but that's gotta be Brian doing most of the producing, right?  Compare the sound and feel on those songs than something like "Shyin' Away". There is no comparison. If you'll notice, there's even some fart bass now and then! Surely, Sandler wasn't the guy to bring that idea to the table. And the arrangement of "Sweet Mountain" definitely has some Brian hallmarks. Listen to those crazy echoes on Marilyn's voice in "Sweet Mountain"!

Also, what about something like "It's Like Heaven"? That sounds like Love You before it's time. This album doesn't get any attention, but in theoretical universe, "Sweet Mountain", "Tennessee Waltz", "Everybody", "Down Home", "It's Like Heaven", and "Had To Phone Ya", comes out of the gate kicking 15 Big Ones ass and with probably just as much Brian involvement (if not more).

I think the general feeling is that Brian was very involved at certain early points but still left Sandler to finish the whole thing. It's really one of the first projects where you have to play the "Brian produced what?" guessing game, which has continued through the Joe Thomas collaborations.

I use to think that Brian was really involved with the Spring album. You can hear him sing on a couple of songs. There's even pictures of a session or two.

Unfortunately, Steve Desper has indicated that Brian wasn't involved with much of it at all. It was mostly Sandler and Diane and Marilyn.

There was a Spring promo session that Brian and Diane did together in the living room at 10452 Bellagio Rd. on October 9, 1971 that was recorded. Just lead vocals were completed; no instruments or background vocals were tracked as everyone else had gone to bed....

Also, come on, let's have a discussion about how awkward "Tennessee Waltz" must've been to record? "Hey, Marilyn, I was thinking we could cover this song, because I'm not in love with your sister or anything so it doesn't really make me think of anything. Yep."

One curious thing to me is the way that it seems (maybe I've imagined this) that since it became apparent that Brian had very limited involvement, praise for the album seems to have been tempered. Years ago I used to read the word 'masterpiece' a lot when people were discussing this disc but no so much any more.

Was it out of print at the time?

I really like it, but it's no masterpiece, apart from Sweet Mountain, which is up there with the best early 70s BB stuff, regardless of who really produced it

The "Brian Wilson Talks With And About Spring" recording for those who haven't heard it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNWbX2BbW78 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNWbX2BbW78)

Didn't Brian say in a radio interview at the time that this is better than Pet Sounds? :-D

Lovely record no matter who did what. (Don't think Brian was really involved with stuff like Awake or Superstar.) Reminds me of Friends and it's definitely a precursor to 15 Big Ones.

When the Spring album was released Brian called Wolfman Jack, broadcasting on KDAY, Santa Monica, to plug it.  He sounded like a wide eyed little child, telling the Wolfman that his wife and sister-in-law had just released a new album entitled Spring, and he repeatedly stated, "It's better than Pet Sounds, Wolfman!"  I was driving in my car when Brian's call was broadcast, and although taken aback by Brian's vocal demeanor, at that time I figured it must have something to do with the fact that he was a musical genius. 

It probably isn't floating around anywhere, but 41 years later it would be great to hear tape of that rather brief conversation.

Love the record! Brian is responsible for making great music! It's got his fingerprints all over it!

Even if you allow the most generous assessment of Brian's contribution/involvement from someone who was not only a band member but also his wife at the time, three-quarters of Spring is the work of others. Hell, he contributed more to CATP-ST.

I think he was there (like AGD just said is the higher end) about 25 percent of the time as well after talking to Stephen, Marilyn, and David Sandler. They all do say one thing-when he was there he was very good and made the tracks better. I think it is the last time you can really hear Brian's classic style unfettered when he chose to work. Iowa  1973 he was more involved with for some reason.

When he made the 5% statement to me, SWD immediately qualified it by adding "of course, 5% of Brian Wilson is better than 100% of most everybody else".

So, basically, do you all agree or disagree with me that the majority of the production and arrangement work on "Sweet Mountain", "Tennessee Waltz", "Everybody", "Down Home", "It's Like Heaven", and "Had To Phone Ya" sounds like Brian's work? To my ears, it sounds like he mostly sleepwalked through the rest of the album (aside from a few vocal arrangements), but those songs bear his sonic hallmark if you ask me.

Er... "It's Like Heaven" was recorded a good four, five years later.

OK, fine, I know that. It's all on the album now, so I just lumped it in.

No sleepwalking, just not a constant presence. Those are some of the more Brian centered recordings, but Down Home is much more Sandler. Brian's singing on Forever and again his work on the Iowa sessions was notable. Snowflakes, Fallin' In Love (45 mix only, since 1988 they have butchered it on LP and CD). "Shortening Bread" was the first very 1976 style Brian recordings.

This is my opinion too.

It sounds like Brian may have only physically popped his head in, here and there... but c'mon!!  This is the Beach Boys -- or the Beach Girls -- all the way, 100%.  I've always thought song selection was all Brian.  I mean it was his wife and sister-in-law!  So it was ALL his vibe.  Plus, the style and harmonizing is 100% Brian all the way... this is a lost BB album (runs for cover) as far as I'm concerned.  Always has been -- always will be.

And it's one of their best.

Who gives a crap if it's Brian's brothers and session men/women or Brian's wife and sister-in-law and session men/women?!  Brian Wilson probably had little or nothing to do with Getchya Back either... but it's the Beach Boys and it's Brian.  Spring is Brian Wilson.  It's the Beach Girls.  All the way.  I mean... listen to it!!  It just sounds like it.  It sounds like a Beach Boys record.  Trust your ears.

End of thread.

 ;D

[shakes head sadly whilst making sympathetic clucking noises...]

why does it matter so much to people how much "Brian" is in it?

If it's good music then it's good music, regardless of who was involved. Brian being involved to a greater or lesser extent doesn't change the music on your record one bit.

Personally, i love it. Couldn't care less how much Brian did what, as long as someone did it.

I don't really like this album and I certainly don't hear the old "Brian magic" here. 'This Whole World' and 'Forever' are two of my favorite Beach Boys songs, but on this album the first is completely ruined and the latter sounds just unimpressive.

I love it as well but have to admit that I do care about who did what to a certain extent because it makes good music even more interesting. To me, Spring is essentially an album full of emulations of BW's then signature style with the man himself occasionally active and present, which is itself a very strange and therefore intriguing way of making a record.

I'd say it's probably the first record, chronologically, that makes you wonder what the tag 'Produced by Brian Wilson' might really mean from a certain point on.

Okay, perhaps I didn't express myself very well. I'm interested too, but I guess I meant more that it seems like some people won't like it if it turns out that a particular idea wasn't actually Brian's. It seems to me that some people are more concerned to verify that Brian was involved before they'll consider liking it (see the Out in the Country and Sweet & Bitter songs that appeared on youtube.).

Brian's participation is going to be spelled out in fairly good detail in my book. I am going to have it ready by mid July to resubmit.

Ah yes, I see! I used to be a bit like that as well during the first years of fandom.

Mike, really looking forward to reading it! Did you manage to talk to Brian himself about it and did he remember?

Yeah he still likes Marilyn's voice a lot. He seemed to like the record but no real info on it from him.

Not to me. Very beautiful cover! There's sth. about the way Marilyn sings it that I find homey & charming. The arrangements are classy, typical Brian. Wish it was longer than 1:56 min.

Another song I like is "Shyin' Away". Really great performance here, not the 1st time when I hear jazz notes in Marilyn's voice. It's such a great song overall! Full of elegance, grace & light positivity.

Other than that, the BBs' versions of Good Time, Had to Phone Ya, Lady etc. are much superior to the ones sung by American Spring. In my humble opinion.

I think "Everybody" is an amazing cover. That little interlude before the outro with the finger snap and bird noises is really cool, and I wonder what the deal is with those church bells. They sound sampled and are played back at different octaves, which is a pretty odd approach for the early 70s but would later be used frequently in the 90s. I love how an electric guitar echos the notes, which are first played so low you almost can't hear anything, but then take over during the fade.

"Sweet Mountain" is incredible, wow.  I wish the Beach Boys would have done a version, would have fit perfectly on Surf's Up or Holland.

It really is a good album. Too bad so few people hear the original Fallin In Love 45  mix, you can't even hear Dennis' original cut in the background of the single. I wonder why the LP and CD reissues use such a weird mix.

I loved that album and I wish it would get a re-release with some bonus material included especially 'Snowflakes'.

David Sandler went onto the Blueboard several years ago introduced himself and was happy to answer any questions, there weren't any takers apart from myself, unbelievable. I wish he would've found his way here.

I asked him about Sweet Mountain and to the best of my recollection he said Brian worked on the bridge and some harmonies.

Sandler gave me a great interview. I think it shows off some of the more normal sides Brian still had at the time.

OT l know but this thread prompted me to do a search and Sandler released an album last year and the melodies melodies and harmonies have pleased me so much I just ordered it.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/northernlight4

He should reissue this album without the horrible autotune and mixing.

I'm very lucky (or not) I can only hear music. The production of the thing usually goes straight over the top of my head:)

My CD has been shipped, fair play for CDBaby, they don't hang about.

Last afternoon, surfing YT, I found 1 beautiful song-outtake by American Spring called "Snowflakes". It's the 1st time I heard it but I already think, after 10 or so plays, that it's one of the gems in the girls' career, alongside "Everybody", "Tennessee Waltz", "Shyin' Away", "Down Home" & "Sweet Mountain". Marilyn's voice is perfect, she didn't make any technical mistakes here like she used to in other works. The arrangement is wonderful! So uplifting, cheery & light. All in all, it is a great find, cool to hear sth. new related to BW/BBs. Now, my playlist of "American Spring" will have no dreadful "Superstar". Instead - "Snowflakes"!

I seem to remember when Marilyn was over here at a BB related event some years ago she was talking about  a remastered version of that album including Snowflakes and other unheard songs being mooted. It must have fallen by the wayside.

Really? Very interesting, and sad the remaster didn't happen. I'd joyfully download it legally from the best source if it did (albeit mainly for the aforementioned songs I like).

With "Tennessee Waltz," it sounds like either Brian arranged it or someone was really, really trying to make it sound like Brian arranged it.

The production and arranging credits are listed on the album.

I don't have the album.   :(

OK, here's a redaction:

Produced by BW & SWD, arranged by BW: Good Time/Everybody/Tennessee Waltz/Down Home

Produced by BW, SWD and DS, music arranged by Rick Henn, vocals by BW: Forever/Superstar

Produced by BW, SWD & DS, music arr by DS, vocals by BW: This Whole World/Mama Said/Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby

Produced by BW, SWD & DS, music arr by BW & DS, vocals by BW: Sweet Mountain

Produced & arranged by BW & DS: Now That Everything's Been Said

Produced by DS, music arr by Rick Henn, vocals by BW: Awake

So...

Brian co-produced all tracks except one: no solo productions.

He fully arranged (music & vocals) four tracks.

He co-arranged one track.

He arranged all the vocals on seven further tracks.

He co-arranged the music on one further track.

Of course, the huge caveat here is that the credits are anything like accurate. I think they're pretty reliable as the five tracks which Brian had most to do with sure have his fingerprints (allowing that for "Good Time" he merely reused an existing Beach Boys master and wiped his own lead vocal).

If I had to construct a vague sessions timeline from this (admittedly less-than-impeccable) evidence, it'd be this:

Now That Everything's Been Said/Awake - the first single, one session dated 10/8/71

Good Time/Everybody/Tennessee Waltz/Down Home

Sweet Mountain

This Whole World/Mama Said/Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby

Forever/Superstar

... and I'd propose that Brian kinda lost real interest after the "Sweet Mountain" session(s). What I wouldn't give for the AFM sheets for this album !

Interesting. I'd say that's way more than "25 percent".

Been listening to Spring since release, July 1972. Every track Brian sings on is granted an extra edge.  Not included in the "rank the tracks" section, I'll put it here.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Wow, thanks for all the info, AGD and feelsflow.
I guess there might have been times when Marilyn went home and played a tape and Brian (otherwise uninterested) threw out a suggested and therefore got credit?

I'll say - that's Steve Korthof (Brian's cousin), not Steve Desper. The "and Arny" is something of a clue. SWD wasn't working for the BB in 1967.

Further caveat - just because someone gets a half or one-third credit on a track, doesn't mean they actually did contribute 50% or 33.33% of the arrangement, production or whatever.

Actually he was.

Also known as The Mike Love Principle.

More like The Spector Syndrome.

Excellent overview of the original Spring LP, feelsflow (will abbreviate to FF henceforth!). I'm in 100% agreement with your track evaluation and it's interesting to put that against Andrew's well-informed speculations about session chronology, etc.

Only one quibble here, re "Superstar": while I have mucho admiration for Bonnie Bramlett's version, someone (in this case me...) should stick up for Karen Carpenter's rendition, which transcends her brother's string-laden proclivities and (arguably) deserves to be considered the best vocal interpretation of the song. YMMV on that point, but we clearly agree that the Rovell sisters weren't really the right singers for this tune, no matter how much they (obviously) liked it.

Well, in this case my mileage does vary, as I consider the Spring version of Superstar to be by far the best one out there.  This is most likely due in large part to the fact that Marilyn Rovell Wilson is one of my two favorite female singers, the other being Veronica Ronnie Bennett Spector.

Nah, more like The Presley Problem. He (due to the Colonel's maneuverings) got credit on a bunch of stuff he had nothing to do with writing. This being a few years before Spector or Mike Love getting their names on stuff that they had little to do with.

Took me awhile to get back here, but I wanted to add where I "got the impression" SWD was "working" with the boys back in 1967.We all have moments where our memories fault on us, old age does that.  I would have fixed my post if you would have given me a mo - play nice.

I agree about the BB versions but I LOVE the cover of Had to Phone Ya, Spring's version was done after 15BO, right? The backing track is so different.

I believe that version is from 1972 actually

I think the powers that be, including Marilyn and Diane, wanted Brian to appear to be more involved with the album than he was, which would garner the album more attention and press.  In fact Rolling Stone did give it a very favorable review and suggested that if the Beach Boys wanted to add more members (they had just added Ricky and Blondie) they should have considered Marilyn and Diane!

I actually kinda agree with that! I wouldn't change history or anything at all, but their voices were awesome, I think they might have benefited from more of their voices. Then again that mid 70s period was quite different than what is on the American Spring LP so perhaps their voices wouldn't have gelled much with the songs anyways. Certainly love their voices and what they sang on some of that Brian Wilson written material!

Correct - from the 1972/1973 Fort Dodge sessions.

Oh my God. Can you imagine what a trainwreck that would have been with all the behind the scenes drama and Brian's obsession with Diane?