The Smiley Smile Message Board

Interesting question. Was Brian that dependant on others?

He probably would have and it would have been Al Jardine to blame for Smile being cancelled. Imagine that...

Doesn't it feel a little lowdown after a while to be bashing/making fun of a guy for............ having a job?

In today's economy, there are probably plenty of 19, 20, 21 year olds who would be happy to be pumping gas while paying for college or whatnot....

I'd like to know what we were all doing at that age that puts us in such a high and mighty position to slam M. Love for working at a gas station.

At least Mike knows what it's like to actually work for a living. Has Brian ever held a job?

I'm surprised you even gave him a serious response...this is a clear case of considering the source before responding.

Well, one way to weed out the half-wits is to try and actually engage them. Those with nothing to say or add will promptly fall off the map....... Or they might actually engage and we could possibly get somewhere. It's worth a shot.

In an ocean or in a glass
Cool water is such a gas    :lol

If Mike had stayed pumping gas, today he might even own the place and it could be called "The Love Pump"!

I'd get gas there!

Of course he did-he was his dad's punching bag.

Good point.

ML's father was a ture worker who did it all for his family. I'd like to think Murry tried to push hard work ethics onto his sons, but Brian started backing out after meeting obstacles he felt he couldn't deal with. However he did have some for of afflicted mentality even quite early so hard to compare. I'm sure ML treats his role in history as a hard working man in the entertainment business. He has every right to.

Pumping gas is the type of job a young man might have.  Not nowadays, of course, but back when they used to have such service at gas stations.   Mike was a young guy at that time, and whatever today's equivalent to pumping gas would be (flipping burgers?) there's no disgrace in someone doing that for an income no matter what their age.  
Personally though, I don't see Mike as being one to remain in that job for his life.   There may be issues I take with Love, but I don't count him as any dummy.  He may often seem tacky, tactless and treacly, but he's obviously got some intelligence and is a hard working guy.  I can easily imagine him having done just fine without the big music career.    And who knows, maybe he would have got into music and had a big career anyway (scenario interlude: Mike ends up meeting Arthur Lee, and they go on to form the band...Love...[Meanwhile, back at the ranch...]  Brian, Carl and Dennis along with Murry and Audrey start a career as The Wilson's, and Al Jardine combines his fondness for Folk and Dentistry as The Singing Dentist. Al records a duet album with The Singing Nun, and passion blooms, she leaves the Church for a life in Big Sur with Al.   Bruce and Terry fill the void left by the absence of a "Beach Boys" and become huge....oh, and Bruce ends up marrying Doris Day.  ;) )

The Beach Boys hit making machine 1961-1967.

How about Carl and David forming a rock n roll band themselves and inventing punk many years ahead of schedule ;)

My personal feeling on this matter is Brian Wilson would've had a successful career with or without Mike Love.  A similar question has also been debated for years on The Beatles forums about which members of The Fabs would've made it without the others.  The general consensus on that question has always been John Lennon and Paul McCartney would've had careers in the music industry without the others and George Harrison and Ringo Starr would not.

This is mainly based around the fact that John Lennon had the drive and Paul McCartney the limitless natural talent to succeed at whatever he attempted in life.  That isn't to say George Harrison or Ringo Starr didn't have any talent of their own but George developed his talent throughout the years The Beatles were enjoying all their success and Ringo for all intents and purposes, just being a Beatle "looms large in his legend".  The cream rises to the top so to speak and I think it is basically the same for Brian Wilson.  Now Brian obviously may have encountered some of the same issues with mental illness later on in life that could've derailed his career whether or not Mike Love was in the picture or not.  However, for me the bottom line is Brian Wilson with or without Mike Love would've found some type of success in the music industry if that is where he directed his creative energies back in the day.  Just too much of a talent not to have found success.  

But who would have driven Brian to even leave his house let-alone somehow get his music out there without a band? You remove Mike and Dennis and Al (both Mike and Al bugged Brian endlessly to start a band) from the Beach Boys story and it's hard to see anything really happening.

And I can easily see Mike forming or joining some doo-wop or surf punk outfit without Brian and achieving some sort of success.... It's stupid to speculate on this stuff.... I mean, how many other bands made it big in the world from that same era that had no Brian Wilson to leech off of?

And speaking of The Beatles: wasn't Ringo the only Beatle who was actually making a living off playing music before the Beatles were anyone?

First off you are right, it's pointless to debate this stuff but debate it people will.

Remember I didn't say Brian Wilson would've found success in the same way he did as a Beach Boy without the others.  All I said was that he would've found success without the others, something that I've never been convinced the others would have without him.  I don't subscribe to the "Brian & Five Idiots" theory but aside from Brian Wilson and Bruce Johnston, I'm not sure if the others ever find a foothold in the music industry outside of the vehicle that was The Beach Boys.

As for Ringo Starr, he was one of many drummers making a living playing music in the burgeoning music scene coming out of Liverpool at the time.  Was he "the best drummer in Liverpool" at the time?  It's quite possible but one thing is certain for roughly the first decade of his professional career he was certainly in the best band to come out of Liverpool if not the entire world.

Murry?

Was Murry running around insisting that Brian form a band?

............ no

These sort of threads are ridiculous. Stop trying to make weird alternate timelines for people.

No, Murry running around insisting Brian's music be heard, and pep talking/haranguing Brian into "fighting for success" (i.e. Brian has his own music career - like Paul Anka, only better.)   :)

Well put. But it says something that The Beatles were clamoring to get Ringo and the Stones were clamoring and scheming  to snag Charlie Watts. These little details are generally forgotten once bands make it big and all the other guys get the kudos... I absolutely think Brian would have made some sort of mark, but knowing what we do about Brian, It's almost impossible to imagine this without The Beach Boys or him having been born with two younger brothers and a cousin and friend who had musical aspirations themselves. Being shy and isolating is a bitch and it's nearly impossible to break out of such traits by oneself. We can look at the Beach Boys story and it seems that Brian did nearly everything/anything due to being bugged, prodded, nagged, and pushed (other than those years having the safe solace of the studio as his hive) . I mean, I'm sure he would have written songs. But an only child with an abusive father somehow managing to become a world famous musical genius without all the other ingredients we know went into the pot? .... It's a very daunting picture to imagine.

Why?  They're fun.    :thumbsup

Sorry but I find them pointless, although I guess if you subscribe to the infinite parallel universe hypothesis then Mike pumping gas is a reality somewhere and there is no such thing as The Beach Boys.

For Your Consideration.

From the Alternate Timeline Zone.

(http://theereatta.8thman.com/images/lovesgas.jpg)

Well done. Did you spend all day coming up with that?  ;D

I'm sorry, but if anyone in The Beach Boys is a rockstar it's Dennis and Mike. Dennis, by virture of being.....Dennis and Mike by being the frontman, lead singer, people-pisser-offer.

Brian is a musical genius, songwriter. Not the same thing as a rock star.

"The Love Pump" is better, but Love's Got Gas works too :)

Why are we assuming (other than to just be mean) that Mike would have stayed pumping gas?

How many of you guys are still at your very first job?

If we're assuming Mike would now own said gas station, this would have to be considered something of a success, right?

Nah. Took me about 45 mins.

I'm a genius too.  ;)

Actually I am looking forward to retiring in less than 10 years.

As for the graphic, checking out the link it struck me -- do a little photoshop with Mike
and his very own Gas Station. Then I just had to think of a name, grab some stills and voila!!

Ahhhhhhh-mYke luHv in his natural habitat-well done, man. :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :thumbsup

Post of the year-go collect your reward. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Great picture :lol :lol :lol

Mike's as capable as anyone here of getting Pet Sounds, Smile or Van Dyke's lyrics.

So would Nigel Tufnel~!

I thinking none of them would go back to doing anything until the band had failed. Since Brian couldn't produce a hit with anyone but the Boys even when he was on top he might have written a song or few with somebody for somebody but I have a feeling that wouldn't have been enough for Brian and he would have shortly been working for his Dad in the shop. You know, unless something completely different happened in alternate past.

Uh, I remember Brian giving a couple of songs away to Jan and Dean and Murry getting really pissed b/c they were half decent songs-can't remember which ones they were, but I think Murry put the brakes on any future givaways except maybe Darlin' . That could be the reason Brian couldn't produce a hit outside the BBs when he was on top but I'm sure you'll come up with another dig at Brian. ::)

What dig? He cowrote a hit or two with somebody for somebody but he didn't produce a hit for anybody besides the BBs. Unless I'm forgetting something.

 :lol :lol :lol That wouldn't be Surf City would it?  It only went to #1 :lol :lol :lol

Why you say "only" #1, as if the highest place in chart is #0?

Would Brian have been able to write hits after the surf era, though? The Jan and Dean songs were all similar to Mike Love's beloved formula. Brian never wrote a hit for anyone in the post-surf era, either the Beach Boys or not the Beach Boys. I think he might have stayed in music without the boys, but would have wound up a cult type figure. Which he sort of is now, come to think of it.

its with a hint of sarcasm :angel:

ding! ding! ding! we have a winner!

It's all hypothetical (with the emphasis on the pathetic) but without the surfing novelty it would have been tough for Brian to achieve any major success. Those early songs from 1961/2 are pleasant but unspectacular. Without hits it would have been much harder for Brian to get studio time so his abilities as a producer would not have developed. Maybe he would have done something to do with music on a small scale but none of us would probably have heard of him.

Interesting and he never produced a hit for anyone other than the Boys after several tries in any era.

Hits after the surf era? Oh, just a couple-Wouldn't It Be Nice, God Only Knows, Good Vibrations, Sloop John B, Heroes and Villians, and Darlin. There was also Barbara Ann, I Can Hear Music which were not of course, written by BW.

Breaking news straight from Nicko's Beach Boys ouija board. :3d

Without Mike and Dennis, Brian never writes surf music or lyrics. He does some Four Freshman style stuff and doesn't get anywhere on the charts.

Without Carl and Dave, he never gets the cool surf and Chuck Berry riffs down.

Without Murry, he doesn't put enough treble on the guitars and the sound gets muddy.

Without Al... well, I guess Al wasn't so important.

But yeah, Brian's early success was entirely dependent on his family and Dave.  I think that's why they had so much resentment when he sorta outgrew them with his mid-60s albums. "Oh, now all we're good for is the harmony blend? You think you're hot stuff, huh?"

Here's a better hypothetical: what if Brian hires the right manager for Radiant Radish and it becomes a wildly successful California chain, and what if he also keeps Three Dog Night on Brother Records and produces for the group?

Al was important on the harmony blend and also the rhythm guitar. Dave had the rhythm guitar down to a T but didn't sing much on the records. Al could play rhythm and bass and could sing the harmony parts and lead vocals. Didn't write that much, but on the records and on the road he was a necessity for that full Beach Boys sound.

Yeah, Al was good for the road and added to the harmonies, but another Bruce or someone could've taken his spot. The BBs recorded many hits without him. That's not to say Al didn't have a lot of talent, but unlike the others, he was replaceable.

Also, Dave makes a good point in the Brian Wilson Songwriter film. He notes the folksy sound of "Surfin'" when the band had Al, and then mentions how he and Carl were able to work together on "Surfin' Safari" to produce a more rock and roll sound. He said Brian's ears (or ear, in this case) sorta perked up when he heard Dave and Carl playing.

Without Al, I can't think of anyone in the group who would nail the lead vocal on Help Me, Rhonda, even Mike.
... ..., there'd be no Sloop John B - one of the best PS tracks & ultimate favorite of mine.
... ..., Brian couldn't build the essential harmonies, or in other words, couldn't achieve the famous BBs vocal blend. Or in words of some other posters, family sound.
... ..., there wouldn't be alternate Cotton Fields which is well-recognized by so many fans.
etc. etc.
Also as a vocalist, Al is much stronger than David. And The Beach Boys are the vocal group, first & foremost. I think that is quite an evidence of Al being irreplaceable.

Another little fact, just in case you didn't know: in one of his fairly recent interviews, Brian was asked about each of the bandmates, what he thinks about every one of them & he started name-calling Mike, Dennis, even Carl. But when Brian didn't mention Al & the interviewer asked him "What about Al?", he hastily responded "No, Al's a nice guy, don't mix him with that company." Or sth. along that.

*Many* hits? Hardly. Surfin' Safari/409 and Surfin' USA/Shut Down were the only singles recorded between Alan's departure from and return to the band. He's not listed as a musician on Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Coupe either, but I think he's on the vocals to at least Surfer Girl. Three singles, at most, where he didn't contribute.

(Oh, and Ten Little Indians, but that wasn't a hit)

That "folkie" theme shouldn't be marginalized. Those folk singers such as Kingston Trio, with the vocal blends, and, Peter, Paul and Mary, and many others had academic credibility with college/university networks as well as PBS spots, so Al's affinity for this style and corpus brought a lot to the BB table.

Sloop John B had a Caribbean roots flavor, which sort of had a "backwards compatible" ambiance to lend to Kokomo and some of their lesser known stuff and gave a nod to the Atlantic as opposed to being only Pacific Ocean/West Coast driven.  Even though Kokomo is a fake idyllic island, we can infer it is someone in between the North and South Atlantic Oceans.

ICHM was produced by Carl though, not Brian.

I thought that was common knowledge-It's right there in the 20/20 liner notes.

I think people are greatly underestimating the genius of BW these days. The BBs practically invented vocal surf-music using Brian's "education" from the four freshmen.

I don't think anyone is in any doubt of that at all. But without Dennis he wouldn't have done.

yeah denny is THE real surfer.

What I want to know is, if Mike stayed in the music business would Brian go back to pumping gas?

Sometimes I feel that if Buddy Holly had lived there would be no Brian/Beach Boys or maybe even the Stones/Beatles because he would have beat them all to everything.

What if Waylon Jennings hadn't given his seat on the plane to Buddy and John Lennon grew up listening to Waylon Jennings records?

What if instead of The Four Freshmen Brian's primary influence was Hank Williams?
What if 1969 had The Beach Boys Sing Randy Newman instead of 20/20?
What if Jonathan Richman joined The Beach Boys after dissolving the original Modern Lovers?

What if, instead of recording an album of Randy Newman songs, Harry Nilsson recorded an album of Beach Boy songs and Brian wrote You've Got A Friend In Me?

Mike would insist on performing "I'm Straight" at every gig.

thats easy....

Hey Good Vibrations

Mike's Cheating Heart

Im So Lonesome til I Die

Cold, Cold Water

Be True To Your Woman

I Got Around (When The Gettin' Was Good)

Everyone's In Love With You (But You Aren't In Love With Me)

Cell Number #409

Servin' Safari
She Cheats On Me Too Well
I'm Bugged At My Old Lady's Man

Nilsson Sings Wilson. This needs to be a thing.

What if the Nazis had successfully invaded Britain, then turned their sights on the US and bombed Hawthorne in to the ground?
What if Murry and Audree had an unsuccessful second date and taken their relationship no further?
What if Brian had been born with no fingers and no ears?
What if Brian had broken Al's neck instead of his arm?
What if Dennis had not re-emerged from the storm drain?

I've always thought Dennis was a sissy 'cos he didn't walk/crawl all the way through the storm drain... It did lead to the beach, didn't it?

What if Carl was thin and Dennis was fat?
What if Van Dyke grew up in Hawthorne California and Brian was introduced to Mike Love on David Crosby's lawn in 1965?
What if David Crosby didn't have a lawn?
What if Bruce Springsteen never got his driving licence?
What if Brian kicked Phil Spector out of his recording session and shot his date in the face 40 years later?
What if Brian was deaf in his other ear?
What if Foskett sang bass?
What if SMiLE was released in 1967 and Mike Love went crazy?
What if Brian went bald and Mike Love predicted indie hairstyles?
What if The Maharishi spent 6 weeks in Mike Love's house and espoused his virtues at every TM meeting since?
What if Brian played guitar and Carl played piano?
What if Al Jardine was 6' 9 and Dennis was intimidated by goats?
What if The Beach Boys joined The Flame?
What if Carl saw Led Zeppelin in a London club and made them join the Beach Boys and The Flame were the most beloved hard rock group of all time and John Paul Jones played 3rd guitar in the Rolling Stones?
What if Brian Wilson became a professional baseball player in the y2k's and the other Brian Wilson formed a band with his brothers in the 1960's?
What if Murry Wilson wasn't a jackass and Audree had a glass eye?

 :lol :lol  :lol Those 3 made my day. Good job, man.

What if Murry had a bad brown eye?

What!!!   :lol :lol :lol

And made Brian stare in it........

 :lol

I thought my post was pretty clever. Of course you have to be familar with Hank's songs to "get it".

I definitely approve.

well done leggs. here's a few more:


Our Sweet Lovesick Blues

Time To Get Alone and Forsaken

Can't Wait Too Long Gone Lonesome Blues

Lonesome Whistle In

Mrs. O'Leary's Happy Rovin' Cow

Hey Good Look (I Ran)

Child Is Father of the Ramblin' Man
or
Child Is Father of the Mansion on the Hill

Honky Tonkin' Down the Highway
or
Honkin' Down The Lost Highway

Wedding-dang Bells

Don't Worry Baby We're Really In Love

Meant For You Win Again

I'll Never Get Out of This Whole World Alive


... and Hank already had one called Cool Water

I am not going to even bother reading through this thread. All I have to say on this subject is that just maybe Brian would not have had a musical career at all if Mike wasn't around. Not to take anything away from Brian, but his most successful songs were ones he wrote with Mike. Also, the front man that Mike was helped make the Beach Boys more accessible. Perhaps Brian and Usher could have had a successful career but we'll never know.

Do it, it dissolved into dumb jokes much quicker than usual!

 :thumbsup :thumbsup

Do it, it dissolved into dumb jokes much quicker than usual!

Yes, it was a dumb joke in the first place!!  :lol

Maybe I will, if I have time :)