The Smiley Smile Message Board

Hi

Not posted on here for a while, just heard this tune and would love to know more!
That has to be Brian Wilson on at least some of the BV's, sounds like one of his productions too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2mQmLwdnEk


does anyone have any info on this?

No Brian on this recording. No bvs, didn't produce it. If you seriously think Brian had a hand in this production, I suggest you have your ears syringed.

A polite response as always...

Make a dumb statement, that's what happens: if you really think that sounds like a late 65/early 66 BW production, or that any of the bvs sound like him, I'd offer you have serious auditory problems.

That was a bit too harsh, but from listening to it for the first time, I can't hear any BW type vibe.

A very interesting cover.

Some trivia:

Brian at the time talked about "Norwegian wood" in an interview, mentioning "I would have orchestrated it, put in background voices -- done a thousand things".

Jan Berry was quite an accomplished producer in his own right, and, indeed, was a major influence on Brian Wilson, both in terms of teaching him how to produce music and in assembling the "Wrecking Crew," whose members Brian used in many of his best productions.  Though I don't think this particular song is a good demonstration of their similarities in production style, any similarities you are hearing is probably as a result of one of those two things.

Definitely an intriguing comment.  The sitar certainly wasn't in Brian's sonic pallet at that time.

That said, the producer very much put that surf harmony sound imprint into it.  May not have had Brian in it, but I bet it was fun to brainstorm the potential in the studio.

I hear a lot of Norwegian Wood in You Still Believe In Me. Try singing the verse melody of NW over the verse backingtrack of You Still Me Believe.

He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaK and nasty as ever-the agdster wallowing in the mire of his own ego. :angry

Excellent hypothesis AllIWanna. Sadly, we can't be sure. If only we had an on-line resource which provided yearly / monthly / daily accounts of activities by the Beach Boys. If only we had such a resource.

It's a damn shame, I tell ya.

ALLIWANNADO -

Back-up vocalists on that song were probably either Sloan & Barri, Jill Gibson, one of the Matadors, or none of tha above.

For a more definitive answer contact Jan & Dean historian Mark Moore via PM.

You're right in that it sounds absolutely nothing like Brian on b/g vox, and that he clearly didn't produce it, but geez....just be nice. A simple "no Brian here" would have sufficed.

Yeah, someone really should do that. It could be a great reference.

As a consequence of events over the past few days, I'm not currently doing "be nice".

Only the past few days???

(http://t.qkme.me/3oswmy.jpg)

But it's okay, it's always okay. Because he knows MOAR than anyone in Beach Boys Land, and personally knows a bunch of important people. So it's fine that he polices the forum to ensure the most possibly unpleasant experience for fans. How else would he feed his ego? Hey, did you know that in 1985 he talked to important people in Beach Boys history and they personally told him things? It's true. He's also written stuff on the band and he has his own website! We ought to respect the guy merely for these milestones. Be grateful that this fan community has such a treasure, and, not only give him a pass on his ceaseless shitty, infantile attitude, but from time to time, kiss his ass too.

 :banana :3d    :ohyeah

(http://www.rjdposters.com/Content/Store/328197645-GAB18.JPG)

my harsh comment was directed to Andrew not Nicko

No, i know. Perhaps it was a bit confusing to quote the two of you. I was simply adding my commentary to yours and Nicko's comments, which were both addressing what’s his face. Anyway...

Its ironic that a band that sings about "good vibrations" has such a grouch being an expert on them.

But don't you see? He can get his panties in a bunch, comes on this board, is as ignorant as he wants to be to  whomever, and gets a friggin' pass because he knows alot of stuff about the band. WTF? And I get banned because he starts talking about my u no wat! Am I supposed to stand there and take his BS or do I give back a bit of what he slammed me with? Weak guys, weak. :thud

Then refrain.

Which is the right response. Jan was a heck of a talented guy and they made some great, GREAT records.

I think the Wilson-Berry relationship was a very important one.  Spector may have been Brian's sonic inspiration at one point, but I'd be willing to bet that in some ways, Jan taught Brian a thing or two about working in the studio that ended up paying off.

What I think is more interesting than any similarities between the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean is the differences.  Because Brian and Jan were both such creative arrangers and producers, in a sense using a similar idiom, using the same musicians, and yet the full extension of these things diverged.

Jan could never do something like IJWMFTT, in the same way Brian could never do something like AACSSBRTA.  Their individual imprints are so unique.  Even the way they wrote for groups of instruments.  Brian and Jan had totally different ways of using guitars, for example.  And Jan's more schooled writing for woodwinds stands out against Brian's alternation between fairly stock writing for horns and woodwinds, and occasionally going pretty out there.

Anyway.

Perhaps this is an oversimplification, but the way I've always understood it is that while Spector was Brian's idol, Berry was his mentor.  As such, Spector and Berry were probably the two biggest influences on Brian as a producer.

In addition to that, the Wilson-Berry relationship left us with some fantastic songs.  Claims of its importance require no justification beyond "The New Girl in School" or "Ride the Wild Surf."

I agree with the above and, to comment on what Josh said, I find Jan used brass more whereas Brian used woodwinds more.

Thanks for constructive and informative comments/insights. Some honored guests are actually an honor to have around. Imagine that.

I’d be interested in hearing you elaborate on the guitar style differences, as well as what you mean by things taught to Brian by Jan that ended up “paying off”--not really sure what you mean by that. When i have this discussion with others about the Spector/Brian similarities/influence, like the IJWMFTT example you mentioned above, i always mention certain songs/productions that the other one could’ve never, or maybe wouldn’t have ever, done. I think Brian ended up racking up a bunch more songs/productions that Spector could not have ever done than vice versa.

What are some examples of what you consider Brian going “out there” with woodwind and/or brass writing?

Yeah I find Jan Berry to have been a very unique producer and have always liked his stuff..By the way I have been looking for the "Filet of soul" acetates cd and cannot find it anywhere, I have the J&D anthology that has some of it and the "Official" "Filet if soul" but can't find Jan Berry's original comedy version in full.. :'( I would love to find it.

Oh, you're going to make me back up my ramblings with hard examples, huh?  Let me do that when it's not 1 AM.  I will give it a go, though.

Jan was an important teacher to Brian and Brian gave Jan a new direction. They were a great match for each other. I like Norwegian Wood by Jan & Dean, especially the single mix. It shows Jan would have deftly brought his mix of satire and production sheen into the second half of the decade.

You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy is Jan and Dean's "Spector" track and probably the closest to Pet Sounds style... Just thought I'd mention it as one basis for comparison. Interesting that the album it was on, Pop Symphony No. 1 is an attempt to branch into more "serious" music. Great album!

the Pop Symphony No. 1 version is just an instrumental. the version with vocals doesn't sound serious at all.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never heard a Jan & Dean vocal that I consider sincere.

Out of curiosity, in what context have you listened to them?  For a long time I dismissed them as poor imitators of The Beach Boys, but decided I should give them a chance when I learned that they were around before the Beach Boys and a major influence on Brian.  I bought "The Complete Liberty Singles" and was totally won over after the first listen.  Certainly humor was an important element of their music, but there are plenty of vocals from them that are sincere.  For other sincere ballads, I would point to "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" and "A Surfer's Dream."

I've always found "I Found a Girl" to be a very emotionally affecting track and vocal.

Yeah, I'm not like an uneducated Jan & Dean fan. I have like 12 J&D albums, I've been listening to them as long as I've been listening to the Beach Boys (about a decade). I'm listening to Jan & Dean right now! Definitely not as obsessed with them as with the Beach Boys, but I couldn't say that about any other band.

I don't think it's a coincidence that both the songs you mentioned are Jill Gibson co-writes/co-leads. She takes the edge off but I still hear a bit of pastiche in both those songs. "A Surfer's Dream" much less so. "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" is one of my favorite Jan & Dean songs, actually.

"I Found a Girl", again, very catchy song, I enjoy it a lot, but I can't take it seriously. That instrumental break where the harmonica comes in for like half a second (begins to play the fadeout riff but doesn't), I can't see any serious emotion in that. Most of the brass on J&D records seems like they're making fun of people who put brass on their records.

There's definitely a lot of pastiche in Jan & Dean songs.  For instance, the chord progression at the end of the chorus on "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" comes straight from "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling," and the guitar part of the verses of "The Anaheim, Azusa and Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review, & Timing Association" comes from "I Get Around."  I'm not sure that they are necessarily making fun of the songs from which they are quoting, though.  I am also having difficulty hearing what you mean about "I Found a Girl."

As for "1, 2, 3" and "Surfer's Dream," I absolutely agree that Gibson's songwriting and vocal contributions are key.  She has a wonderfully emotive voice.

No accounting for taste I guess.  I know what you mean about the sort of "knowing" brass arrangements from time to time, but I think the break in I Found a Girl is beautiful and moving.

I meant to edit my post and say "sophisticated" instead of serious... That's probably a better word choice!

I think they did serious music to a point, but yes I do hear a little bit of satire in most all their songs. That's a good thing in my book. I love all of Jan, Dean, and Arnie's 1958-66 records including Save For A Rainy Day.

Hell of a production! One of J&D's best imo. Should've been a much bigger hit




"Folk'n'Roll" has some very deep cuts that are in some way reminding of "Pet sounds"; "A beginning from an end" "It's a shame to say goodbye" and the great "I can't wait to love you" (the latter released as a Jan Berry single).

And of course "Carnival of sound" is a masterpiece.

While Brian and the Beach Boys' did a lot of emotional, introspective stuff, Jan & Dean's point often was - as others already mentioned - the comedy/humour side. In some way I wonder if Jan did with "Batman" what Brian (in his own way of course) wanted to do with Smile.


BTW Anyone know Jan&Dean's version of "Everyone's gone to the moon"? Love the way Jan sings off key at the "out of tune"-part of the lyrics.

Josh, have you heard the song I Know My Mind from Carnival of Sound? That’s always reminded me of some of your singing that i’ve heard.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.  Don't get me wrong; I like plenty of tracks on Carnival of Sound (particularly "Girl, You're Blowing My Mind," "Fan Tan," and "Love and Hate"), and the attempt to move into psychedelic music produces interesting, if not always successful, results for them.  But in addition to the fact that there's a little too much subpar material for the term masterpiece ("Laurel and Hardy"), I think some of their hits from 1963-1965 are superior to anything on the album.

I admit part of my skepticism about calling it a masterpiece is a reflexive response to the claims I've seen made that Carnival of Sounds proves Jan & Dean could make "serious" music, which I think is condescending to the excellent music they made before Carnival.  I know you weren't trying to make that argument, but I still think it's worth stressing the artistic value of their earlier songs.

Out of curiosity; which Jan & Dean comp should I go for if I want to investigate their catalog further? And also get a fair smattering of deeper cuts?

I've always wanted to like Jan & Dean - a lot of the songs I know are cool and with interesting production. I have a hard time listening to their vocals though, especially Dean's falsetto which really annoys me. (the tracks where PF Sloan stands in for Dean is like getting a breath of fresh air  :)...) I guess it's a matter of taste.

If you don't like Jan & Dean's vocals (and I'm with you on that), you might want to try http://www.amazon.com/Encomium-Memoriam-Vol-Berry-Dean/dp/B001CYZBZW -- it's a tribute CD, using Jan's original charts (though largely using synths for the orchestral parts), featuring versions of a lot of the deep cut stuff like Carnival Of Sound tracks. It also features David Marks, Probyn Gregory, Alan Boyd and other such people. I like it more than any of the actual Jan & Dean records.

Well, you should definitely get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Liberty-Singles-Jan-Dean/dp/B001AVUAIK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363554884&sr=1-1&keywords=jan+dean+liberty

I think it's the only place you can find all their singles for Liberty in Jan's original mono mixes.


There were certainly better singers out there but the two of them harmonized really well together. Dean's lead on "Yesterday" is great and Jan had a voice very similar to Mike's.

There's two comps you should consider:

All The Hits: From Surf City To Drag City (http://www.amazon.com/All-Hits-Surf-City-Drag/dp/B000002UHK/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363554881&sr=1-4&keywords=Jan+%26+Dean) - includes some pre-Liberty material, but a caveat: most, if not all, the tracks are remixed and disc space is wasted on pointless radio spots. That said, an excellent introduction.

The Complete Liberty Singles (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Liberty-Singles-Jan-Dean/dp/B001AVUAIK/ref=sr_1_30?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363555055&sr=1-30&keywords=Jan+%26+Dean) - does exactly what it says on the tin, and in mono too.

On vinyl nothing beats The Jan and Dean anthology from 1972. Cool pic of Brian in there too.

Agreed on the above, and Save for a Rainy Day and Carnival of Sound if you want to see what they did the post-accident era. I love SFARD but it's all Dean leads so you may not like it.

The All the Hits set does have some cool tracking sessions and bonus tracks, too.

I've had Carnival Of Sound tapes from way back in the late 70s/early 80s, and for the life of me I've never seen/heard what all the fuss is about. Masterpiece ? Not even close: might have been great therapy for Jan but, and this may be unpalatable to some, it sounds like what it is... the product of someone in Jan's condition. The sitar is straight from a cheesy mid-late 60s sitcom where the producer was trying desperately to appear hip and some of the arrangements are way too top heavy. There's some nice pop songs in there - "Fan Tan", "Girl You're Blowing My Mind" - but overall it's just... mediocre. Their work from 1963-1965 was orders of magnitude better.

While I don't disagree that it's not a wall-to-wall masterpiece, the songs you mention plus several others (Hawaii, Love and Hate) are great, regardless of the circumstances. I have a soft spot for the spurting sitar, which I feel adds to the mood and feel of several tracks (again, don't disagree that it wasn't an attempt to ape the sound of the day), but where it's used to mimic the sound of a bee buzzing on a hazy summer day it's interesting and effective. The circumstances just make for a better story and personal triumph for Jan.

I've often wondered how Brian reacted/responded to Jan's accident... Did he lose a friend and competitor, in a practical sense? Again I go back to Meet Batman's influence on Smile...

Over here, there's a car bumper sticker that I've seen that says, "Play an accordian, go to jail".

I think they should make a bumper sticker that says, "Play a Sitar, go to jail".

Agree with pretty much all of what AGD said regarding Carnival of Sound and the Jan Berry/J&D singles. Collectibles in the late 70's, those original singles were considered somewhat rare. The original "Save For A Rainy Day" vinyl was very much a collectible back in the 70's - 90's. Good that Sundazed eventually re-released the album (and EP) on CD and vinyl, even though it's pretty much all Dean and musicians. Carnival of Sound was released on CD a couple of years ago on Rhino and is great for the hardcore J&D fan and collector, but for the average listener........not.......really........a masterpiece.

never heard anything to get excited about on Carnival of Sound or come to think of it anything from J&D..also there not very good singers are they? Is that weird to say for a vocal heavy group from that period? sorry if this offends any j&d fans, maybe just need to be pointed in the right direction though I have listened to a lot of their stuff.

I'm not really a Jan and Dean fan but I can at least appreciate Jan's talent as a producer on the pre-accident stuff.  I don't get Carnival of Sound at all.  That album is a mess but I think the Davy Jones part of In the Still of the Night is hysterical.  Is it supposed to be funny?  I don't really know.

I hate to agree but that's basically how I feel. I think from Jenny Lee to SFARD much of their work has a keen satirical nature. They had their gimmicks but they were sincere about them. They were two (three counting Arnie) guys who had fun with what they did. Comparing them with the Beach Boys as vocalists is unfair, so few are in the same class. They weren't Caruso's but they had a cool sound.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I just can't stand the way they sing. There's no passion there, just monotone delivery most of the time. I think they had some excellent songs, and I have tried to get into them with several albums...but geez, I just can't do it. Pat Boone is a more exciting singer.

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I felt the same way until I listened to The Complete Liberty Singles in its entirety, and their vocals haven't bothered me since.  I'm not entirely sure why that is.

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Yes.

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