The Smiley Smile Message Board

Guess Mike has made him one.

http://www.beachboysband.net/TOURSCH/BB_TOUR_SCH.htm

Thread title updated for those that didn't get the premise.

This was mentioned in another thread and something tells me that Mike doesn't add things to that website himself.

As Bruce became a member 48 years ago it's not really a big deal is it?

Depends.  There was controversy over who was an original member regarding David and Al. Not taking away Bruce's contribution as a real Beach Boy - he is. Just not an original member in my opinion.

Yeah, I do think Mike/Mike's management has a say - it's his web site. Is he personally being web master for beachboysband.net?  Silly thought.

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He is an original member - of Bruce & Terry.

Would a young fan seeing the Mike and Bruce show for the first time, then getting all into the Beach Boys music, read that web page, go out and buy, say, the Surfer Girl album, see Bruce wasn't in the band, feel duped?  At the least confused. Probably. Just sayin.

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Well, lessee... band formed in 1961, Bruce joined in 1965. Going out on a limb here and saying - not.

Unless I'm mistaken, for 74 gigs last year Jeff Foskett introduced the group members as 'original Beach Boys'. Nobody thought anything of it then so why now?

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More like Mike bashing to me.

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Bruce has more than earned his stripes but I prefer the phrase "Authentic Beach Boy" to "original". Looking forward to the tour marking his 50th anniversary.

The Mike and Bruce 50th Anniversary tour!!   Does that date from 1965 or 1998??

What defines Bruce as Authentic, by the by?

Seal of Authenticity tattooed on his ass. Interesting side note, that's why he loved the short-shorts: the procedure went awry and got infected; the shorts allowed much-needed fresh air to soothe the wound.

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He is the original member of the mic adjusting and not doing anything on stage club.

  Bruce is not an original Beach Boy. He is, however, the long lost eldest Osmond brother.

The original Beach Boys are Brian, Dennis and Carl Wilson, Mike Love and Al Jardine. If the publicity for the current line up must clarify peoples status then he should be billed as 'longstanding member'.

Aw, come on Smile Brian-you're just not seeing the full picture if you don't credit him with the obligatory, cringe-worthy, never ending HANDCLAPPING. :thud

An erection in other words?

Forgot about that habit :lol :lol :lol He is also the charter member of the Mike Love ass-kissing club.

He might have just gotten that one recently at Sea World, right? The Seal of Authenticity? The Seal..?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jv_XR6RMAI



 :poke

He also should have 6 years (72-78) subtracted from his length of service.

I don't know why but I thought this image was funny enough to post:

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7cZfIzmlrL4/0.jpg)


Kinda sums up Bruce in a nutshell.  :-D

Mike looks photoshopped in that pic. I'm guessing not tho, just looks that way.

Bruce isn't original, but, other than Mike, I think he's played more BB shows than any other Beach Boy. He gets some points for that...

Nah, it's just weird quality. I guess it's a screencap from one of the numerous promo clips for the WOTS compilation.

He is a real Beach Boy. I love Bruce's voice and songs. Met him backstage last summer. He was way cool and we had a great conversation.

I just got bugged by the web site displaing in big, bold red,"

THE TOURING BEACH BOYS - 2013
Featuring two original members: Mike Love & Bruce Johnston

He sure ain't original (in any sense of the word  ;D). But he's HISTORICAL, you know. That's gotta count for something.

I'm picking the context for the use of the term 'original' by both Jeff and Mike is they are what we here would  class as Beach Boys. They were on the records, toured in the 60's, witnessed the highs and lows etc.

Do any of Mikes other sidemen in the touring 'Beach Boys' publicity shots meet that standard? No chance!

I lost all respect for Bruce when just a few weeks ago he called the Mike and Bruce band "the real beach boys" or something to that effect.

His contributions to the beach boys music are forgettable, well I guess it depends on how much you like "Disney Girls", I'm not that much of a fan.

If he left after singing on California Girls and GOK it would've had zero point zero impact on how the Beach Boys history played out. The only thing I can think of is Sunflower would have been an even better album and we wouldn't have gotten the "Here comes the night" disco remix.

Also, this Mike and Bruce bullshit might never have festered

True that. But her quote of 'little Mike and Bruce thing' was the stand-out line by a landslide! :lol

I'd say that Bruce should, at this point, be considered an original member...... Why the hell not?

I see "The Bruce Boys" are playing this gig: May 12, 2013 - Flagstaff, AZ - Pepsi Amphitheater (4pm) !!!

I thought Mike was against sugary soft drinks!

Because "original" derives from "origin" - and Bruce simply wasn't there.  ;)

But doesn't he just look and sound like he was born to be a Beach Boy???

Well.......................

I don't even know how to answer that. (If that description fits any non-original BBs associate, it's Scott Bennett. I think.)

  This is a highly subjective opinion that can never be proven, but David Marks would have made a far greater contribution to the band than Bruce if he'd been on board for decades. Perhaps not as a composer but certainly as an instrumentalist. Imagine the guitar tandem of Carl and Dave with Al switching to bass. Could have been way cool.

 Having said that, I'm a fan of "Disney Girls" which belongs in the Great American Songbook. I sorta dig Bruce's "wild" look circa 1971-72. In some pics from that era he even looks a tad surly.

I'm partial to this Bruce look:

(http://i50.tinypic.com/2naictk.png)

THE BRUCE BOYS!

(http://i50.tinypic.com/20kdiko.jpg)

Haha!

But that is not Bruce, there is no handclapping going on in the picture.

 :lol

There's actually a lot of clapping going on in this picture. But he's clapping so fast the human eye can't process it . Let alone the camera or a frog's eye. That's one reason he's historical. D'uh.

There is a monument in Hawthorne with six original guys. Bruce isn't one of them.

I doubt it. David Marks was as messed up as some of the other members for much of his life and they still would have used Carl or session musicians for the guitar parts if he'd been around probably.

I once went to a show at the Coach House in San Jsun Cap CA that was billed as Alvin Lee and Ten Years After. Alvin was there but no Ten Years After. AL was awesome but I was bummed I never got to see the original TYA.

Just throwing in a little tribute to the late, great Alvin Lee.

Oh is that right? And what are you trying to say?

(http://i50.tinypic.com/vew6dc.jpg)

Uh........ That Bruce is not on the monument csuse,... uh,...... he isn't an original member.

Speaking of Lost in a Lost World, would Mike Pinder, my favorite Moodie, say Lodge and Hayward are original Moodies? Obviously no. But they ARE Moodies.

  Bruce Osmond indeed. Is that the same sweater he wore on the cover of SUNFLOWER?

 Think of what they might have done live though.

That's a tough one! ..... Other than in name, the Hayward/Lodge holy sacredness of a band has little or nothing to do with the Denny Laine Moodies other than the two beard/stache guys and myself... So, it's easy to just consider them different bands even though they aren't ..... So, yeah, why not just consider Justin and John original members? ...... Bon Scott wasn't even an original member of AC/DC but, I mean, he IS though, right?

Re the photo a few posts above (previous page), Dennis and Bruce sure were a couple of handsome dudes, back in the day... Even if Bruce doesn't qualify as an "original" BB in my book, he definitely qualifies as a genuine BB.

I ran across this cartoon in another BB list, since we're discussing Bruce's role, it seems to fit here.

(http://darkgate.net/comic/images/argylesweater/1362639865.gif)

There you go, can everyone agree he qualifies as a "genuine" BB?

I honestly think David was better exploring soudscapes with The Moon than he would have been in The Beach Boys.... Look at how much we all slam Ed Carter's guitar freak-out on Bluebirds Over The Mountain.... There's not much place in The Beach Boys for any dominating instrument..... I think Dave came back (and has come back) when the time is right..... I think things would have been radically different if he'd never left in the first place though.....

Sure. He's been on a couple of album covers, after all.

Yes! And I forgot that! Is there a website for the MLAKC? I know a few members that actually lurk here. ;D

Bruce is a core member...there were seven, and he's one of only six who participated in the Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations peak. He's also an official member...there were nine. He is not an original member...there were six. They are on the California State Historical Landmark monument and plaque.

Barely! They could not get the ok tp put the real image of each group member on the memorial. What a crock that was!

Didn't that have something to do with not being able to get permission from the photographer for the Surfer Girl album cover? Note that the SG inspired tee-shirt from the 50th uses silhouettes.

not all of us slam that solo!

Were there really six originals? Could we say that? I'm not sure. If we go by the lineup that put out the first single, that means we got Brian, Denny, Carl, Mike, and Alan. If we go by the group that put out the first album, then we have Brian, Denny, Carl, Mike, and Dave. It's tough. Do we go by who was at the first rehearsal?

Then you got Fleetwood Mac. John McVie didn't play the very first Mac show, but I'm pretty sure they named the band for him to join and he eventually joined after the first show. Is he an original? It's a very fine line. I don't know the answer.

Including me.  I love it.

Looks like someone was seconds away from getting a pistol whippin'.

Dave replaced Al who left so he can't be considered a genuine original member.

So Dave is original,  because Al left and so can't be an original because he left?  ( here we go again) 

Is Dennis even an original member since he was only allowed to participate due to Audree's persisting?  >:D

You have read my statement backwards. No Dave isn't an original member because he replaced Al who left.

Oh I laughed out loud. Honest!

I think if you are on the first album, you are an original member.

Not the first song, rehearsal etc?

It was all pretty loose to begin with. When the remaining group members worry about, I will.

Nothing here IMO.

Wasn't Al a bit worried about it until sometime in the 70's when he was awarded full partnership?

Sorry but it goes like this...David was playing music regularly with the Wilsons for two years before Al did, but he was 12 when 19 yr old Brian and 19 yr old Al got together for Surfin, they played 4 or 5 gigs with Al, he left, Dave came in for the next year and a half and was on the first major record contract, first four albums, first national hits, first tours, first TV shows and was in the band during their initial rise to fame...etc... etc... Al was not in the band that became famous as the Beach Boys...he rejoined the band when they were already on top in 1963. But... since Al was there on that first single and first few gigs he too is an original, like the other five guys who were the original Beach Boys that became famous and successful.

The fact that David played music with the Wilsons BEFORE the group started is interesting but not really relevant imo. Obviously the fact that he later stayed for 18 months is.

Exactly. When Brian formed the group that eventually became known as The Beach Boys he chose Al as the second guitarist not Dave. Dave was only asked to join once Al left. By definition Dave is not an original member. But honestly who cares about something so trivial anyway?

In this era of big bands touring with one, or no original members, some people care and some don't. Skynard has one original member, so too the Moody Blues. Diverence is that their web sites don't claim non original members are original. I care, think it's deceptive.

By the by, I really think the genersl standard is if you R on the first album, you are original. Case in point, Ringo. Dave is immortalized in Hawthorne, as is Al. Bruce isn't.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the group released 26 studio/live albums during the '60's/'70's (not including Stack'o'Tracks). Bruce was with the band whilst 11 of these albums were recorded - Summer Days... through to Surf's Up, plus L.A. Light Album - which is pretty impressive. Although he barely featured on Friends and Smiley Smile, and is he even on Party! at all? So more like 8 albums really... Still, not bad. And certainly grounds to be considered officially a Beach Boy, if not quite an original member.

The fact that almost all his songs royally suck is another matter however...

If you tead the whole thread, the fact that Bruce is a 100% real, offical, long standing BB is not in dispute. Some want to quibble about David being original but to advertise Bruce as a original member is wrong.

Historically, Bruce was a hired hand, like Glen Cambell, for his early years.  He may have been with the band but as hard as I look, I can't find his face on the cover of Pet Sounds.

I thought it was really interesting that Al in his recent post about the smile sessions winning a grammy congratulated all the Beach Boys apart from Bruce  :lol

an album recorded by the Beach Boys. Well done Brian. Well done Carl, Dennis, Mike and yours truly........"

You must care because you corrected some other members up the thread who stated that David was an original member. If you didn't care then you would have let it pass. Is getting an accurate historical read on who is among the original lineup of a band who are important enough to generate thousands of posts from you... trivial?

I've done a lot of research on the genesis of the Beach Boys and I've never seen any trace of evidence that Brian "chose Al as the second guitarist"...did I miss something? The only time I can see any probability that the group rehearsed with two guitars prior to Feb. '62 was with David and Carl playing them. As their guitar teacher John Maus confirmed, Brian, his brothers and Dave Marks used his garage to rehearse but they were so bad his dad kicked them out. This, according to John, was before Surfin, probably in 1960. But any reference to Al playing an instrument with the "group" during the fall '61 period has him on standup bass, which he also played on 'Surfin" and at the first live performance(s). Al did switch to guitar for a couple of weeks prior to leaving the group but as the early demos of Surfin Safari show he and Carl hadn't really had time to develop any chemistry, which is something that Dave and Carl had years under their belt and immediately shows on the Western demos of Surfin Safari/409 that got them signed to Capitol. There is a ton of myth regarding the early months of the "Beach Boys" and so much of it has been debunked (Al going to dental school in the east etc...). But the story of Brian choosing a band that became the Beach Boys is way more nuanced set of events than the Murry written history (which first appeared in 1964 BTW). The first drafts of said history do not include the name Al Jardine. I have the first, badly drafted "official" Beach Boys bio from '62 and no mention of Al is in it. The genesis of the Beach Boys included six guys, that's just a fact and one that is hard for many people to get their heads around after decades of being told one neat little story that is just one of a dozen that actually formed the band. But there really wasn't a "band" with amps and drums and gigs etc...until about two or three weeks before Al left, and of course the guy they replaced him with was the guy that was already kind of in the band that wasn't really a band yet. So Brian refers to Dave as one of the original Beach Boys because he was one of the original building blocks that became the Beach Boys. He played music with Carl and Brian that ended up on the first few Beach Boys albums before Al was there, and yes that is relevant because it was part of the creation of the band. But if you want to ignore all that came before and insist that the recording of the single Surfin designates who are the orig. Beach Boys then you are right David is not, and Ringo is not an original Beatle.

It is all fairly trivial though isn't it and has been happening for 15 years at least.

Didn't David say in an interview way back that one of the stipulations of the contract in 1998 was that they had to have 3 original members (obviously that later changed) which meant him, Mike and Bruce. Bruce has technically been considered to be that for a long time. Now clearly we all know that he literally wasn't around when the band started but the wording on the website is obviously just there because nothing else would really suit. They couldn't exactly write, '2 proper Beach Boys' because that would hardly be professional and if they didn't name the members then they would really be duping people.

As others have said, Jeff introduced them all as original Beach Boys every night and nobody complained. In fact, the only vague dissent that I noticed was from a couple of reviewers in the press who stated tosh like, 'David Marks has only missed about 46 years' or whatever.

Is anybody really being misled into buying tickets to see Mike or Bruce any more or less than they have been since 1998?

I think those contracts specified three "principals," not three "original" members. Anyway, that's consistent with how the BBs refer to themselves. A "principal" means someone who is an official Beach Boy. Everyone else onstage is a supporting band member or a guest (in Stamos' case). Last year's reunion brought in a new term, "vice-principal," in referring to Foskett and Totten's roles -- meaning they had more responsibilites -- but that still didn't make them official BBs.

I'm not ignoring anything Jon. I'm well aware of the above history having read your book. We just seem to have different ideas of what the term "original" constitutes.

Perhaps but David did use the word 'original'.

Jon, I have a lot of respect for the way you always defend David (and Dennis), major props for that. And I don't question a word of what you wrote in this topic.

But the thing is, if you would have to write a definition for what an "original member" is, what would the criteria be? I would say that the original line-up would either be the line-up that played the first concert, or the line-up that recorded the first released music. Seems fair, I think. And David was in neither. I know that's probably a bit too black and white in this case, but that's the hard thing about defining something...

I think that's a fair definition.

I hope that was simply an oversight by Al, not mentioning Bruce. But if it wasn't, it's things like that which have a way of coming back to bite Al in the ass, and leave him searching for a band to play with.

Back on topic, kind of...I noticed in a couple of recent interviews, Al is really making it sound like HE was THE founding member of The Beach Boys. He has been telling the story (and I know some of it is factual) that he approached Brian to sing with him, Brian agreed, and the rest is history, like it was Al's idea "to start The Beach Boys".  Maybe - probably - Al did approach Brian at some time to get together to sing some songs, but in a group that consisted of three brothers and a first cousin, I'd hardly consider that early incarnation to be Al's band or idea.

Yeah I think there's room in the BB's genesis for a variation on first record, or first concert because they took an unlikely route to becoming a "band". They didn't play a bunch of practices, parties, dances for months or years and then release a record, they did the opposite. Brian was obviously trying to get a vocal group going, but he wasn't really thinking band with electric guitars and drums and amps...just singers. They threw together an acoustic session and released a record, someone else named them the Beach Boys after the fact, and then they began developing material, developing instrument roles, and playing some gigs. IMO and from what i've learned through a lot of research they really didn't get serious about being a band until after David was there. It seems somewhere around March or April '62 they decided to rededicate to being a real band with a set list, with a promotional bio and with publicity photos. Before that Brian and Carl were playing playing around with several combinations, some with Al, some with David, some with Val Poliuto? Or Audree? The Surfin record was a surprise, it did better than they were ready for, they really got busy promoting it after Al was gone...it peaked in the charts when Dave was in the band, the Beach Boys became a brand, they got a real record contract and you know the rest. I appreciate that this thread is allowing a nuanced view, but as you all have said it comes down to definition and criteria.

I thought there was only one original Beach Boy, Brian. At least that's what "Smart Girls" tells us.  :lol

The Beach Boys:
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson
Dennis Wilson
Al Jardine
Mike Love

The Beach Boys:
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson
Dennis Wilson
David Marks
Mike Love

The Beach Boys:
An assorted collection
of people who
recorded, performed, and otherwise worked together
to create an amazing body of music that is
loved, studied, and sometimes hilariously dissected.

I wish to f*** I'd thought of an acronym for that.

 :lol

In all of the 50th Reunion PR stuff I saw, Bruce was never referred to as an original member. BeachBoysBand.net referring to Bruce as an original member is something new. I might guess it's some BS PR response to those three actual original members who are touring this summer.

I don't see what is so hard about this topic about the original members.

The first Surfin single had Brian, Carl, Al, Mike, and Dennis on it.

The Beatles released My Bonnie with Tony Sheridan but Ringo was on the first album and he is considered an original. Michael Clark of the Byrds didn't drum on their first single yet he is an original Byrd.

With all the transformations bands go thru starting out, a member is generally considered original if they are on the first album.

As both Dave and Al appear on the first album, Surfin Safari, they are both original members.

I know this might be kinda dickish, but there is no way I'm gonna take Jon Stebbins word on this "who's an original?" question. He is obviously in the David Marks corner, probably more so than Dave himself. So although he is super helpful in distinguishing truth from the lies, he obviously is pushing an agenda. To totally take him as the final word on this stuff would be like taking Bruce Johnston's word on what happened between Mike and Brian, Al, and Dave since the C50 tour.

But anyways, I think Dave and Al should be considered original. Al was on the first single, and Dave was on the first album and the first show (right?).

Al played the very early shows before he left for the first time.

Obviously you've never read any of Jon's books. We are lucky to have BB experts like Jon, AGD and others on this board.
Why in the world would you not believe someone who has done such exhaustive research on the subject.

And you didn't even read Jon's post correctly.  My summary - Al on the first single and early concerts. (single was on the first album). David on some of the first neighborhood jams, first tours and first 4 albums.

The topic is about the ethics of publicizing Bruce as an original member.  We know he is not.

I am on topic, the fact is that Bruce isn't anywhere near an original member and Mike is a liar if he promotes otherwise.

"Original" to me means the members who were in the group when they first started out. So the original members were:

Brian
Mike
Carl
Dennis
Al
Dave

Bruce joined the group four years after the group started. Then left for seven years and came back again.

My thoughts exactly!

Rather than worrying about Bruce, there is a better meal here to get your teeth into.


http://www.paramuspost.com/article.php/20130310191621984

M&B are con artists, enough with them using the BBs name for this crap.

Mathematically, Bruce is not an original member but frankly, why does it matter if he was on the first album or not?

I find his presence to be very obvious and delightful on California Girls, God Only Knows, and all across the Sunflower album. I love his original contributions, both are better than Disney Girls IMO. And his lines in Add Some Music are signature. He adds dynamics to the song, probably his most important vocal contribution. Mike's booming baritone with "The Sunday morning gospel...", Carl's sweet yet soulful "Music, when your alone..." Al's edgy yet full "Ice cream cart" line...and Bruce's sweet and flowing "They'll play it on your wedding day, there must be 'bout a million ways..." which all of these together embodies the whole message of the piece from Brian.

And of course, there is "Disney Girls", which I love but I konw some find it campy and unamusing. He's played a big part in keeping the live band popular (using the term kinda loosely here) as well. He's a great promoter of the back catalog, loves the deep tracks (Theres a great clip of him talking about the raw emotion of "I'm bugged at my old man" somewhere on youtube).

I think Bruce Johnston is a historically important member in the Beach Boys legacy but he simply can't be original...but did he ever try to be? He tells his story very well "Next thing I know, I'm squeezing into Al Jardine's pants that are two sizes too small..."...maybe that's why he loves the short shorts now...  :o

Good catch!

I think Mike's mgt does this crap on purpose to sell tickets.  Bruce is an original member, the Beach Boys 50th continues.  It's sad.

Meanwhile, Brian, Al and Dave are lining us some shows at great venues.

Question is, which act is a more legitimate "Beach Boys" at this point.

I was being facetious with the thread heading. It has nothing to do with Bruce's long history as a core member of the band.  Not knocking Bruce (I'm probably one of the few who really like "Going Public".)

It's the ethics of Mike's website stating Bruce is an original member when he is most obviously not.

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

Have to see how much of a group the Brian, Al and Dave show is to make a judgement, IMO, although Brian alone makes it more interesting musically than M&B because they never have anything new to offer.

That article makes it sound like the 50th anniversary tour is still going on. Personally, I find the ticket prices more offensive than the article. No way would I pay that much for one original and one longtime member of any band, especially when a lot of the best songs are sung by sidemen, AND some of the other originals are still alive.

Yes, it's going to be interesting. Hoping David gets some more lead vocals.

http://www.paramuspost.com/article.php/20130310191621984

So this article leads me to believe that Brian, Mike, Al, David, and Bruce will be at this gig.  Nothing in this article suggests otherwise.  The article names everyone in the group, not just Mike & Bruce. Orrrrrrrrr, it's misleading.


"No Better Way To Kick Off Summer [2013] Than With The Beach Boys!! Their 50 Year Celebration Continues With Their Tour"

No way Mike's management did this release. Just some shoddy reporting/screw-up.

The venue itself has a updated photo but the bio seems to be from 2006.

http://www.bergenpac.org/events/detail/the-beach-boys

5 pages on a shaky ad?

Uh....I did read the David Marks book, and I found it very informative. I also have much more regard for Dave as a Beach Boy. But it doesn't make it wrong to point out that Stebbins is definitely pushing an agenda.

I think some of us are a bit bored by yet another mammoth Smile/H&V discussion in the Durrie Parks Smile acetates thread while we wait for MIC developments and the first Brian/Al & David shows.

A bit of Mike bashing is always fun. 

But here you are on the thread Mike.  Thanks for bringing us closer to page 6.

My experience is that people/artists/authors are very passionate about their life's work.  The Real Beach Boy was great. 

I met and talked to David at the Eugene show last summer.  The guy is so nice and likeable I can totally understand Jon's affection for David. I think agenda is a pretty strong word.  Jon is an advocate for David. Nothing wrong with that.

Bruce is a real Beach Boy. Mike, Stamos, and he tour all across America and spread sunshine oceanlove. People love for where they sing, too.

True enough ;D.
Yeah Smile threads aren't to my taste mainly because I think we've heard 95 percent of everything existing and doubt there will be much more. Hope I am wrong but I'm not one for Smile speculation. I guess I'm the odd guy who figures if there's anything good I will hear it soon enough. Of course the Wild Honey version of Surf's Up sounds like it would be cool.

I really admire the SS Board 'Smile' scholars. Their depth of knowledge on all the Smile bits and pieces blows my mind . I just dig hearing the music. "Wild Honey version of Surf's Up"? Thought we already had that on the Smile box?

When I think original band members,  I think of the guys that were in a band when the hits were made. That's why Ringo is an original Beatle, even though technically, he isn't. Ditto for Hayward and Lodge. And Bruce. It's not like Bruce was some hired hand brought in around 1998. But what I really want to know is why Bruce insists on wearing a hat all the time like his boss. The few times i've seen him hatless in recent years, he's appeared to have a good head of hair.

I'm using this pic lol

For some reason I have really started to dislike Bruce likely. (Well, dislike a guy that I don't really know and have never met.) I don't like most of his contributions to the band outside of Disney Girls. Brian, Dennis, Mike and Even Carl are better songwriters. As far as his singing voice I would certainly rank him last- I mean Carl, Brian, Al and Mike and even Dennis are all superior singers. His shorts really are horrible. His political views are off-putting. (And yes I know that has nothing to do with his singing etc. - I love Kelsey Grammer even though his views I don't care for.) Is there anyone else who feels or has come to feel this way? Overall I think he is an authentic Beach Boy but no not an original Beach Boy. My two cents....

I could care less about his political views. It's his right to have one and to express it any way he feels appropriate, just like the rest of us. Whether or not he sings better than Dennis has nothing to do if he is a good singer. Of course he was good. He would not have lasted if Brian didn't think he could handle the parts given him. His vocals on Smile are terrific.  His songwriting, meh, not really my cup of tea, but he did win a Grammy, so some people like it. I do agree though that he is not "Original", but is "Authentic".

There are many matters of taste upon which Bruce and I clash horribly, but live and let live. And it's not as though he gives a monkey's what my tastes are, nor knows WTF I even am.

There's really only one thing that comes to mind that makes me almost dislike the guy, and that's his intolerance (bordering occassinally on contempt) toward the perspective of the rabid, but well-meaning, harmless fan (obssessive types such as you might find reading this thread). It's just an impression I get, but he often appears to belittle the historical importance of the details as they relate to the whole. He (it seems) doesn't see the value in researching the details, and doesn't really have any time for those who do. Which I think is unfortunate, given the experiences he's had and the relics (such as acetates) he's handled.

This is for the guy that asked why he wears a hat. Now, after you're done staring at the one and onlytime Mike Love has removed his hat since 1976, it seems to me like Bruce has some weird fluffed-up trump-esque combover going on...not to mention a rather McCartney-shade of hair dye...

(http://karenmoline.com/lurchingintodecrepitude/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/beachboys-1.jpg)

.

.

Yeah, it almost sometimes seems as if he prefers the "know nothing" fans to the ones who even know what "Disney Girls" is.

And I also think he looks kinda trashy when he wears the baseball caps. It doesn't work for him. The shorts I honestly don't mind, but the hats are bad. Mike Love, on the other hand, I feel that the hat is part of his being, but Bruce almost seems like he's wearing one in solidarity with the bald one.

Comb-over? I don't see it, but hair dye? Perhaps. Looks like he's got a good head of hair, but yeah, maybe the hat is in solidarity with Mike. Just thank God Mike isn't wearing shorts on stage!

Bruce does have a bald spot on the crown of his head, but he really doesn't need a hat for the same reason that Mike does.

Absolutely nothing to do with his hair or value to the band...but this picture is just asking for a caption...

(http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20120620&t=2&i=621127369&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CDEE85J1ANC00)

(http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20120620&t=2&i=621127369&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CDEE85J1ANC00)


Original members of the Beach Boys......and Bruce Johnston!

Wait a minute!When did Happy The Clown start hanging with Brian, Al,  and Brooth?

It appears that Bruce's mike-adjusting habit has escalated to extent of interfering with those used by his bandmates, prompting Marks to stage an intervention.

I really don't get why anyone would bother to have such a dislike for anyone they don't know, and who's never done them any harm. I disagree with his politics -- just like I suspect I'd disagree with the politics of any extremely wealthy elderly white Californian -- but that doesn't make him a bad person.

As for his songwriting for the band, a lot of people have been attacking that recently, but his good/bad ratio is about the same as any of the others -- yes, he's written some bad ones (Endless Harmony, Tears In The Morning) but he's also contributed a fair few decent and good songs. She Believes In Love Again isn't great, but it's one of the best things on the 85 album. Same for Somewhere Near Japan and the Still Cruisin' album (I don't know how much he contributed to that, but it was something -- I'd guess the middle section that Al sings). Deirdre and The Nearest Faraway Place are both perfectly pleasant. And some of the Bruce And Terry stuff is fantastic.

Honestly, even if he were every bit as talentless as some people make out, I still wouldn't be able to work up the energy to hate him, but he's a good musician (and in the Mike & Bruce tours he really does have to play and sing a lot, not just do the handclap and mic adjusting thing), he's not hurting anybody... why bother to dislike him?

"You put your right foot in, you put your right foot out..."

Dave and Bruce re-enact the Vulcan Nerve Pinch! 

 (http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bgasnow/Vulcannervepinch.jpg)

David: Who was the original Beach Boy? Say it, say it...

Bruce: Owwwwwww!!!!!

Brian (oblivious): Bruce....Bruce.....Hey, Bruce.....

Mike (to the crowd): And the second part of the Chicken dance is flap-flap...

When Bruce says that it was amazing that Friends even went to 100-something, when he would've just been happy if it went to 1,000-something, I realized that he shouldn't be considered a member at all. What a jerk! He hates Friends, and then writes "The Nearest Faraway Place". What a joke!

What is even more amazing is how much he loves the Wild Honey album. With the type of stuff that he wrote after Friends, you would think that it would have been just the opposite.

I've never really heard him say he loves it, whenever it comes up he raves about "how much fun it was to make". :drunks

 AGD could probably correct me, but it is my longstanding belief that Bruce's involvement with FRIENDS was virtually zip. Not a single songwriting credit among all those "team ups" and I'll be damned if his voice can be heard anywhere in the mix. Bruce has as much presence on FRIENDS as he does on CARL & THE PASSIONS. Know what I mean?

 To second some of the other posters, Bruce's contempt for the hardcore fans came through clearly last year, from his interviews to the backstage preconcert meetups. He does seem more at home with the kind of fan who might know The Beach Boys via FULL HOUSE.

 :lol

Brian: G**Dammit, Mike and I are wearing the same shirt again.
Mike:  Well, this is the shirt I wore when I wrote "Kokomo." It went to #1.

I don't want to make it about politics, but I wouldn't doubt maybe that Bruce considers the people that like the more esoteric material to be drug using liberals, whereas the people that found them via Full House and only like "Fun, Fun, Fun" and "Kokomo" share true, goodhearted American values. This might sound ridiculous, but Bruce is the same guy that got testy with an interviewer because the interviewer asked something like, "does it feel good to make people feel better during these tough times?" and instead of agreeing I'm pretty sure he took this as an affront or something. And followed the interview up with this genius declaration:

"those Europeans are so...so indoctrinated by socialism. They don't realize that they just hate success. He tried to push me in a social direction the whole time. I figured him out, you know. So I kicked his ass for ten minutes, with a smile on my face."

Seems like dude reads politics into areas where it might not be, and so I wouldn't doubt he might have interjected politics even into what parts of the fan base of his band that he cares for.

Now let me say, I don't think that Beach Boys fans break down into these areas as evidenced by this board. I love the early material and the later material and I don't think politics plays much into it. The group has made great music and I think all different kinds of people can enjoy it.

I don't doubt Bruce's skills as a singer and musician, and probably an arranger and producer too. He's surely the only person in The Beach Boys aside from the obvious to achieve something like that level of commercial success. I also think his contributions to this group, purely as a musician and especially singer, are excellent. I don't like his songwriting though: I feel like he's probably formally rather good at it but, to me, his songs lacks spirit. They're also way too sentimental and dangerously close to easy-listening at times for my tastes. Plus, his commentary on "Disney Girls" from 50 Sides of The Beach Boys -- where he basically admits the song is reactionary and conservative -- makes him seem like more of a stick in the mud than even Mike!

Ya know, "Disney Girls" is reactionary and conservative, just like Bruce! And that's ok. He apparently never did drugs, was always really straight laced. He was born – adopted in truth – rich and it shaped his views. I'm not particularly conservative, but I like "Disney Girls" because I can relate to the premise of wanting to "get back to when things were simpler or better or whatever."

My only problem is that he fetishizes the '50s in a way a lot of older white Americans do, forgetting about the Cold War, the Korean War, segregation, etc. That's where Bruce loses me.

I can get past the voice and even his walking across the stage in his white shorts smiling and clapping his hands, but his political views are unconscionable. 

.

(That quote isn't from me, of course, but from someone upthread I was quoting).

I couldn't disagree more with his views, but they appear to be held by roughly fifty percent of Americans, give or take, including a reasonable number of people who are friends of mine and certainly not bad people. It's not like he's ever deliberately made a public political statement.

I don't know, it's just... for every bad thing you can find to say about Bruce, there's a corresponding good one, like the way he talks on the BBB Board with fans and has done for about 15 years. His politics are pretty much exactly what you'd expect from someone of his age and background, and he doesn't make a big deal out of them, so I don't see why they should bother me, either.

I wonder if Bruce's son is now married to the daughter of the richest woman in the world, Gina Rinehart? He would sometimes mention the wedding but I never read about it happening. I always wondered if Bruce's more recent political statements were shaped by being exposed to that woman, who is very far right and whose father was famous for being a racist. Perhaps knowing her emboldened him, or he might be worried about the world resenting his son and daughter-in-law for being in line for receiving billions of dollars that they worked so hard for.

Bruce has been a right-wing Republican at least since the 80s, probably earlier. He hasn't been any more public about his beliefs recently than he ever was -- he just had the misfortune last year to have two private conversations recorded, which is more down to a combination of the way recording technology has become ubiquitous and the heightened public profile of the band last year than to any change in his opinions.

If Bruce was getting up on stage and telling the crowds to vote Republican, I could more than understand people's criticisms of him and would be joining in. But we *all* have opinions which, if they were made public when we were speaking off-guard, would sound stupid or wrong to a lot of people.

Politics doesn't matter to me as far as Bruce or anybody really. I just don't like his testy nature, or his general attitude like he's better than others. Of all the Beach Boys, he the only one I have some serious reservations about. While I have heard nothing too bad about him from the people he knew before the late seventies, the people I've spoke to who came on the scene since tend to be wary. It's not like he's a monster from what they describe, but you don't know who you are going to get when dealing with him. I found that out myself when talking to him twice online. Once he couldn't have been nicer, the other time he was a prick. The only other thing I can attest to myself is that he tried to get me to pay him for an interview. The lady from BRI who tried to set it up seemed very put off he would do that, but I told her it wasn't her fault. I've been writing since 1991 and though it's not an unknown practice, it's the only time I've ever been put in that position. I declined to do the interview because I don't personally trust paid information.     

Still what I think of the guy as a person (which to be fair is only what he shows in public or what I have been told) has zero to do with his work. He was a fine singer back in the day, and hey some of his work (Hey Little Cobra, Don't Run Away, the Sunflower cuts and Disney Girls) is very nice. Yet I think the band suffered when he came back. I don't think he's done one thing of interest since 1972 and almost everything he has done has made me cringe. Maybe he contributed a bit to SNJ but I think the song would have been fine without him. Bruce put in a lot of time, but what's he done with it? This isn't a personal thing for me, just rather an artistic lack of integrity. OK if he was behind the orchestrated shows in the 2000's that was worthwhile, but his attitudes are so contrary and bizarre who knows what he's really thinking.

You know it's so funny, I had some sort of brain fart on that and forgot where that solo version came from. That's one of my favorite's on there too go figure. I'm updating my book over the next two months and am planning to study the box very closely this week. I played the whole thing through at the time but so much has gone on since it came out for me that I need a serious refresher excepting the two LP set which I have played about a dozen times. 

As far as you liking the Smile focus, that's cool. I don't look down on the knowledge of anyone. I personally though feel very satisfied with what I know of that and the Pet Sounds sessions because they have been such a huge focus for so long. I'm not a person who really speculates much so that side of it I am not enthralled with. Still I suppose I did my fair share before the best boots came out over the last 23 years. It was such a mystery and some had so much fun trying to figure it out that I am guessing it's hard to let go of the habit. The fringe that get's really far out with theory is what I can't relate to.

How much did they suffer because of him though?

Wasn't it more that the band was a hideous mess by this point anyway?

Well I would put it down to Bruce as far as why the three CBS records sound as unduly "safe" as they do. After all he produced much of the first two and brought in Steve Levine for the third. As early as 1981 he was quoted as saying he only wanted to play oldies. He's been in deep in every last corn ball idea since fall 1978 ie Here Comes The Night, Happy Endings, plus the Wipe Out and Problem Child videos. Also the image he's given off since the early eighties is pretty square and his performances outside of his own showcases have long become little more than route. Bruce isn't to blame for all the trouble, not even half. I'm simply pointing out that he hasn't always helped them make good creative choices.

I would actually describe the production of LA as professional rather than safe. The problem was that Brian had written nothing new but I think the album was far better than it might have been. Certainly superior to the production of 15BO or MIU for example...

With KTSA I would partly agree with a couple of caveats. I do think the production is weak but the songwriting is also really poor. Also, the fact that the band was such a mess meant he was working with his hands tied behind his back to some extent. Isn't Brian quoted as saying that Bruce was responsible for transforming Goin' On into a much more commercial song so he did at least do something of use.

Again, Steve Levine didn't work out but the fact that Brian hadn't written a single decent song again killed the album.

Getting Terry Melcher involved did at least result in Getcha Back and Kokomo (along with some crap obviously) so he did some good there.

I don't blame Bruce for saying that he wanted to play oldies though because I think he knew the group were screwed by this point. Dennis was done for, Brian barely wrote a decent song for the group from 1978 onwards (until last year), Al and Carl were limited songwriters and Mike was a lyricist without a songwriting partner. Whatever he or other producers did was going to be turd polishing by and large.

Mike Eder is killing it in this thread. 8)

Mike - some of those songs with a "twist" that you mentioned seem to be an attempt to freshen the band, without going too far afield.  My kids were on the young side, early grade school, when Wipe Out came out, and as goofy as it may look now, it was pretty cutting edge for the Fat Boys to sing with the Beach Boys.  My kids were continuously telling me that they saw the Beach Boys on some TV show or a other, and I'm not sure that what was a raging hit, such as "Full House"or Jack Klugman's "You Again" merits the woodshed.  Klugman was really a headliner as a result of his Odd Couple series.

People in business, take calculated risks all the time, to freshen the business and get innovative ways of exposure to a different demographic.  For example Obama used twitter to get young people involved in the political process, as the typical voter demographic was generally over 50, and more female, than male.  So I think the analogy fails retrospectively. 

And the Hey Little Tomboy genre retro stuff seems to be a Brian brainchild.  I also think that once the USA had removed the troops from Vietnam, and Watergate was pretty much over, with a reason for the States to celebrate, the Bicentennial,  with the Band enjoying a resurgence, they needed some new ideas and strategies for staying back on top, without straying too far afield.  It is probably why Endless Summer and Sprit of America did so well.  You never know what will fly with the public. 

They had already done the "reinvention" thing, post Pet Sounds, and they had to work really hard for credibility, because the public wanted to keep the old surf/girls/cars thing going.  So, taking small risks were not a bad idea. JMHO

Don't completely disagree with some of the points made, but I hold strong to my two basic points.
1. Bruce did not cause the decline alone, but he sure didn't give them a needed edge.
2. As much as those TV shows and eighties hits did to spread the group to a new generation, they were getting poor product not worthy of the Beach Boys in the sixties or early seventies.

Thanks.

Those 1980s "hits" and TV appearances made the band and the public forget what the BBs really meant as a whole.

Smile Brian - What does that mean? Taken as a whole?  It is impossible to summarize their impact, as it as been so huge. You don't get to Pet Sounds except with the building blocks on All Summer Long or Shut Down II.  These were a sort of a pre figuration of coming attractions and really, it is all a "building block process."

They grew, took creative risks, and became more elaborate.  And, the "back door" of those 80's shows, is the "front door" to find out what they are all about.  The Band never forgot who they were; and C50 is proof enough.  

Kids only listen so much to their parents music.  The 80's shows gave younger fans a place of "ownership." If they watched Full House on their own, and developed an affinity for the music, they owned it, in a different context.  It was not their parents' music any longer.

There is a certain "classist shame" that people are painted with, if they enjoy what the "academic" and pseudo intellectual fans perceive as "I'm a better fan than you because I wouldn't be caught dead listening to Kokomo."  These guys were sort of child stars, starting out as teens, certainly David and Carl, and however trite Surfin' might be construed as, it was their "foot in the door" of the business.  I think this is snobbism at its worst.

The real "BB snobs" were the 60's fm DJ heroes (and the listeners) who saw the merit in the Pet Sounds/Smiley Smile/Wild Honey BB music and played it unapologetically "in your face" alongside all the politically correct 60's rockers.   ;)  JMHO

1, I don't think anyone reasonably could have because they were so screwed.
2, I really don't think that could be said for Kokomo or Getcha Back even. The BBs made some crappy appearances on TV shows back in the 60s too of course.

Mike -  I don't understand what is meant by "poor product."  In the 80's, it seemed that they were trying to "stay in the game" and how does one do that, as a forty-to-fifty year old, and sell a "product" which already was on the shelf for nearly 30 years? (Kokomo - being released in the late 80's) And, Brian was in a lot of these videos, especially after Dennis passed.

How were they supposed to contort their product to fit an ever changing marketplace?  Even the great Sinatra, started covering Beatles stuff.  Did that make Frank's product unworthy?  Does it mean they are sell outs, covering California Dreamin' on video? Music became visual when it had been historically, strictly an audio format. You get Baywatch crossover, Full House, etc., and it was not strictly concert footage, but integrated into an acting model.

MTV was just really coming into its' own, at that time, alongside VH1 where videos and crossovers from the TV shows became the intro to the music rather than the radio DJ.  As they say (in that movie) "It's Complicated!)  ;)

Its just the 1980s songs were such low quality (wipe out, problem child, etc.) that the legacy was harmed with younger people thinking they were lame and the older fans really unhappy with their decline. The BBs were at times too desperate to get on the charts and tried to follow fads they had no clue about to stay "hip".

I think the problem with that theory is if those songs were hits (and Wipe Out obviously was a big hit) then they obviously did please some people. Kokomo was a much bigger success for the group and was undeniably beneficial for them.

If singles flopped like Problem Child then they were doubtless quickly forgotten. I mean, does anybody think that 'recent' singles by The Rolling Stones really affects how people think about them as a band?

I imagine that Bruce's dislike of the Friends album is less to do with his lack of involvement with the album and more to do with Mike's lack of involvement with the album. Seriously, i genuinely believe he's that much of a Love ass-licker.

I feel wipe-out was a hit because of the "fat boys" not the BBs, who seem tacked onto the song. Its just the way the BBs carried themselves in the 1980s that annoys me, their live show and "hits" reeked of doing it for cheap fame/cash without thinking about their past.

Really? Can you explain why he's expressed such distaste for M.I.U. and Make it Big then?

I would guess that maybe he dislikes Friends because there are very few fleshed out songs on the album and most of them are sketches (though very pleasant sketches imo).

If he doesn't like it then that's a valid opinion and I'm not sure why people are so threatened by them on this board.

SMiLE Brian is killing this...........I mean killing it in this thread.

Not sure about the logic there. I think Wipe Out was a hit because people liked the song as the Fat Boys weren't famous enough to sell it on their own. Certainly not in the U.K. where it reached number 2.

The live show went back to the beginning in terms of playing the hits that the fans wanted to hear. Not earth shattering but not bad either.

Wipe Out was good. When I first saw it on MTV, I thought, WTH? But I recognized Brian's voice in there and I appreciated that he was looking good and back with The Boys in full stride. Not sure he would have been involved without Landy's insistence, but it gave The Beach Boys good exposure on the mainstream video channel at the time. Otherwise, teenagers and 20 sumpthin's only recognized The Beach Boys as being on VH1 Classics on the "older crowd" channel. It was a little dorky, but I thought it came out OK. Dunno how many African American people bought the record because of The Fat Boys, but I know Caucasian people bought the record because of The Beach Boys! I did! And the Happy Endings and East Meets West singles, which were forgetables. Best BB singles of the 80's? Getcha Back and Rock & Roll To The Rescue followed by California Dreamin' and then Kokamos. Album in '85 didn't do sh*t, but they held their own as a singles band, didn't they?  ;D

Bruce? He looked like a straight-laced wimp in ALL of those 80's videos. And a Right Wingnuter to boot...

I'm not sure that the quality was low.  The listener was shifted into a different dynamic.  Someone mentioned Make it Big from Troop Beverly Hills which was very popular.  It wasn't Good Vibrations.  But, that and other songs had the Beach Boys style harmonies, and is almost subliminal in that background of film.  

Those films and TV shows, which might seem trite, were subtitled, dubbed, distributed, syndicated, got and still get global airplay, which keeps them "in the game." They didn't do a disappearing act as many great rockers who may have been too fearful to either try something new or felt their time and zenith had long since past.  I give them credit for going into that Baptist church and singing, "That Same Song" or doing "Wipeout" with the Fat Boys.  They remained active participants in popular culture.

Hip people don't need lessons.  They just are.   ;)

Dave, Bruce and Brian encourage each other during a low point in concert.

Mike: 'Off The Florida Keeeeeeys....'

Your a super-fan that likes practically everything they did and I respect that immensely. But if I was growing up in the 1980s, I would have not liked the BBs based off those tracks since the back catalog was hard to get  back then before the CD twofers.

Brian Wilson's greatest achievement was surviving the late  80's and the 90's while Mike tarnished The Beach Boys name.

I would've downed a bottle of nail polish remover somewhere around the Home Improvement appearance 

Amen, brother. :h5

:woot :woot

Bruce is an enigma. He was supposed to be the straight-laced, normal Beach Boy. One might even use "mature" to describe him. Yet, Bruce has said some of the wackiest things in interviews over the years. Maybe that was intentional, like he was trying to be "out there" or "deeper". Come to think of it, I could be describing Al Jardine, too.

What always perplexed me was that Bruce has stated in a few earlier books/interviews that he wanted to be a songwriter more than anything. Actually, whether you believe it or not, that was his reason for leaving the band in 1972 (that and Jack Reiley). So, he concentrates on songwriting for a few years, releases a solo album (with some re-workng of old songs BTW), has some success shopping his songs ("I Write The Songs"), but then returns to the Beach Boys, who could use some good songs - and he hardly writes anything. I believe you can count on one hand the number of songs Bruce has contributed to the Beach Boys over the last 35 years! And, keeping with Bruce's perplexing behavior, when it comes to contributing a song - one song! - to the NEW 2011 Beach Boys album, he wants to re-record "She Believes In Love Again". This comes from a professional SONGWRITER.

Don't songwriters usually have a catalogue of songs they've written, songs they gave/sold to other artists, songs they've demoed, songs they've recorded for solo projects (released or unreleased). Where are Bruce Johnston's songs? What has he produced over the last 35 years? Shouldn't he have dozens of songs written?

One last thing. L.A. (Light Album), produced mainly by Bruce Johnston. Try to picture that album WITHOUT an 11 minute disco song. Picture a producer who puts his foot down and says, "No, Shortenin' Bread on this album. Give me something better." Picture versions of "Angel Come Home" and "Love Surrounds Me" that rock a little, that have some life to them.

Not true. Only the bonus tracks.

Thanks, SMiLE Brian - You were very nice to say that.  What I like to see is people who can or at least try to shift into another context and work on being relevant and staying current with the times. Sometimes things just bomb out, despite your best efforts.  And you just go back to the drawing board with new ideas.  

But, I didn't realize that the back catalog was that hard to get. That is unfortunate.  It seemed that there was a steady stream of cassettes, or whatever was the audio format of the day.  And, they were goofy and cool at the same time in the video with the Fat Boys.  

They seemed to be truly excited with the video playing all the photos and album covers during C50, almost in a "We did ALL that work?" Wow!  But, they did.  

Thanks, again for those kind words.   ;)

Great questions Sheriff, you would think Bruce would have built a stockpile of material during all those years of M&B touring.

I think the fact he survived recording Speed Turtle without wanting to down nail polish remover is a bigger achievement.  :)

This imaginary producer would have had to go work with some other band. This is The Beach Boys circa 1979 we're talking about.

I think a lot of people's problem with Bruce is that he tries to present himself and The Beach Boys as the "Fun, Fun, Fun" guys, despite the fact that he wasn't even in the band 'til they started getting artsier. He just kinda seems to perfectly fit in to the dorky, straight-laced, boring image that some people wrongly have of The Beach Boys.

And his point of always saying things like "Brian Wilson's music and Mike Love's lyrics" strikes me as him trying to be a good company man and make sure to big-up his employer, Mr. Mike Love. I mean don't get me wrong, Mike has done some great singing and wrote some great lyrics, but he wasn't Brian's equal, and he didn't write a whole bunch of the lyrics for many classics and hits.




I am pretty sure that Mike and Bruce did push for Dubya to get elected in 2000 with statements in concert. And who can forget "I'm pickin' up Bush vibrations" when they campaigned for his daddy.

Don't forget - Mike & Bruce campaigned for Ronnie Raygun too.  They're good for one another politically.

Even today it can be difficult to buy the back catalog in stores. Most places only carry the hit collections where I live. I had to buy most of my twofers used or from amazon.

Bruce not only doesn't write songs in spite of being a songwriter, he doesn't always play keyboards in spite of being stationed behind them onstage. People criticize Brian Wilson for doing that, but it seems to work for Bruce. Not to mention he doesn't always sing, either. He does clap and encourage the crowd, similar to a crowd fluffer on the average game show.  Mike could save money by getting rid of him, because he has to hire additional keyboard players and backing vocalists just to cover what Bruce doesn't do. However, he is an "original" Beach Boy, so he stays.

Well, sure, they were a mess. Can you imagine working with those guys in 1978? It must've been a nightmare. But.....I think they were WILLING to be led. Carl backed away from producing, Brian literally gave up, Dennis couldn't even record his own album, Al had his big shot with MIU, and Mike can't produce.

The story goes that Brian called Bruce and asked him to produce the album. Boy howdy, that's a good reason to let Bruce produce....It never should've happened. I never read a lot about it, and I think about it often, but I wonder why James Guercio didn't take more control. Do you realize how successful he was with Chicago. When you listen to Chicago's stuff circa 1975-176, a lot of it sounds like the Beach Boys. Even the voices : Cetera = Carl,  Kath = Dennis/Brian,  Lamm=Al/some Carl. Chicago had that big hit with "Wishing You Were Here"; I love that song, love that sound. Why couldn't Guercio do THAT with the Beach Boys. Somebody on the board awhile back compared L.A. (Light Album) to Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. I don't quite hear that, I hear L.A. trying - trying - to channel Chicago. It didn't make it, though...

Yeah, but look at what Bruce managed to turn out: a Beach Boys album full of a whole lot of Dennis and Carl!

Hey, since you mentioned that, I have a question. Dennis's songs on Pacific Ocean Blue were so great, easily the best BB solo album. But, "Angel Come Home" (I know Carl wrote it) and "Love Surrounds Me" are boring. Why couldn't they sound like POB. Seriously, I ask because I'm not sure. Who produced them? Was it Bruce alone? And, did Dennis and/or Carl contribute anything to producing their songs on L.A. (Light Album)?

With Love Surrounds me: it appears Bruce just took what Dennis had recorded and Beach Boy-ized it by layering his and Carl's vocals. Otherwise it's the same track only maybe sweetened a little..... I happen to find it a great song no matter what version..... Angel Come Home as well. Both are stellar 1979 Yacht-Rock if you ask me.

Depends on where you live, I guess. Maybe being in California has something to do with it? I dunno.

Amazon is by far the easiest way, along with CDNow and other Internet sources. Back in the 80's and up until the 2000's Tower had the best selection, followed by The Warehouse. Borders had a good stock in my area and Breast Buy wasn't/isn't too bad. I saw all of the recent 2012 Remasters in my local Best Buy so cudos to them. And now we have to rely on Amoeba and Barnes & Noble. Amoeba has always done a pretty good job of maintaining Beach Boys stock and promoted the 2011 Smile release VERY well. Other than a couple of other brick & mortar shops in my area that maintain a pretty good stock (Streetlight, Rasputin's) Amazon has pretty much knocked all the book stores off the map that carried CD's, which is why Amazon is now one of the best go-to sources for Beach Boys product.

P.S. Back in the 90's, I picked up the '93 GV box, Pet Sounds box, and ALL of the two-fers at my local brick & mortar store as I wanted to give the small guy business. There were quite a few re-issues on vinyl if you were into that.

Your on the record mecca of the west coast, most places aren't as lucky with such a deep selection.

Sorry, I can't hear you over my turquoise and yellow windbreaker.

Me neither, was listening to this.... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9J5o1iVfAw

Bruce is certainly one of only two Beach Boys who've played SeaWorld :)

The only Beach Boy who even comes close to Mike Love when it comes to getting raked over the coals on the Smile Smile board is Bruce Johnston.

as it should be: Two peas in a pod

Bruce likes it this way since Mike is his boss and overlord.

Absolutely..... And he brings it upon himself..... I mean, a guy who can stand next to possibly the hardest working man in show business (Mike Love) and proclaim "We're The Beach Boys" when he basically does nothing onstage, might need to be checked here and there.... He should really be saying "Mike's The Beach Boys but is nice enough to take me along with him and pay me to adjust my mic on stage"

Agreed, I trash Mike all the time but his work ethic is still impressive. Man still sings all his songs like its 1964....

Speaking from growing up in the eighties, yeah some of my friends liked Wipeout or Kokomo, but these weren't records anyone really took seriously. Just radio fodder really. From 1970-89 few of the first 11 sixties Beach Boys albums were in print in the US. You could buy them but they were edited and this ruined the albums. In 1990 we got the CD's and in 1994 the LP's were back. Along with the two nineties box sets The Beach Boys began to be seen in the right light. In 1988-93 most people gave me a funny look if I said the Beach Boys meant anything artistic. 2012 showed what they could have been doing all along. Be yourself and people will listen.

I also respect people who try to find good in all the different periods, if you dig you will find some cool things. However from 1976-97, especially after Dennis died, they gradually lost their cred by the direction they took. Mike may have spearheaded this, Bruce might have been the most gung ho once he came back, but it is all their faults. Thankfully,solo and together, they woke up. By the way That Same Song from the 1976 special was a cool risk. Rap and disco....not so much, at least not the way they did them.

But is it really a "work ethic" if he seriously enjoys being a jet setter, being the head honcho on stage and raking in more dollars than he's worth and laughing all the way to the bank plus getting Brooth to be his pawn/indentured servant for most of the year? mYke has numerous perks and would probably expire if he couldn't tour and be the center of attention. How sad that he knows nothing else.

It is pretty sad that Mike's whole adult life has been non-stop touring now that I think about it. Maybe its time for him to retire and hang with his family more. The BBs could work again if they only tour together.

I see what you guys are getting at, but please remember all the other Beach Boys (other than Brian obviously) have spent their entire adult lives doing exactly what Mike is or were at least trying.... I would imagine being the center of attention in such a big way could be somewhat addicting, to say the least....

Mike would be Jack Nicholson in the shining if he didn't get to tour 365 days a year.

What people don't understand about Mike is he is and always has been motivated by money. A bunch of ex-wives does not come cheap. I'm sure Mike would love to tour like most huge acts and accept the offer that the Beach Boys received last year to play Madison Square Garden and Yankee Stadium but he knows all cost included he's better off playing small venues with just him, Bruce and a small band.

We won't ever get another reunion tour because Mike doesn't want to pay for it. Crazy bastard, TM my ass.

With exception to the Christmas album, Stack-o-tracks, and the Greatest Hits albums, all of the 60's albums were released in their entirety in 1981/82. Four albums (Shut Down II, All Summer Long, Today, and Summer Days) had two cuts edited out of each. To the average consumer off the street, they weren't missing those edits. To the collector, it made a difference, and we sought out the original 60's albums and their reissues to get every BB cut known to man.  

Yeah, Pinder, but with The All Powerful Oz (aka mYke luHv) on stage, the other guys didn't have much of a chance to get noticed, did they? The man has totally engineered his net worth while up there on that stage. mYke's stance on life in general has always been built on "I'm up here and you're down there and I'm the wizard". He's as insecure as they come, with all the rings, flowing robes, turbans, sandals and TM bullsh*t and will crash as hard as anyone can when it's over-it's not going to be a graceful exit. By the way, why didn't he get a rug, weave or whatever instead of a dumb hat?

Has anyone mentioned that Mike's dad Milton Love is still alive, and almost 95 years old? Mike did a shout-out on his FB page recently.  He's not in good health (broken bones, had a bout with pneumonia), but that might give Mike some motivation to keep working hard. He's still a young whippersnapper by comparison to his father.

I saw that. It was pretty cool!

Hear that OSD, 95 years old! I'll bet Mike's got that beat ;)

I'm still trying to remember what Bruce did when I saw them on the C50 tour last year.  Lessee.......lead on Disney Girls.......and......I think he did adjust his mic on stage a couple of times.......and lessee, what else........he sang a verse in Add Some Music.......and........hang on, I know there was something else........uh.........

He sang Wendy at one of the 2 shows that I attended. Since we are hating on Bruce for cheerleading, why don't we start ripping Al a new one for the constant conducting that he did throughout last year's shows.

:lol :lol :lol :lol but really, not that I'm a rabid fan, but nobody and I mean NOBODY, not even the exalted mYkster luHvster, puts in a day's work like Springsteen.

What do you mean "conducting"?

I totally agree with you about the fact that dude had like 20 years from the time of Summer In Paradise til That's Why God Made The Radio and the best he could offer was a new recording of "She Believes In Love Again". I mean its possible that like "Let Him Run Wild" for Brian, he feels like he never got it right, and so he used that opportunity to do it. I can understand that. I recorded songs for my old band that I felt like taking back and reworking even after it was posted online and on CDs for like over 2 years. But if I was a professional songwriter, with a venue like The Beach Boys to get my songs out, you'd that Bruce would have something else to offer.

The thing is though, I don't think Bruce has ever been much of a songwriter. Even on Going Public, there were only a few truly new songs ("Rock & Roll Survivor" and "Don't Be Scared"). All the rest were either songs of his recorded by other artists, Beach Boys songs written by him, or covers.

And to make it worse (or better for some), Bruce probably doesn't have more than 10 finished compositions since Going Public. Let's see, he had "Let's Visit Heaven Tonight" and "If There Were Time" which went to Captain and Tennille, "Endless Harmony" (which was actually "Ten Years Harmony" from a few years earlier), "She Believes In Love Again", "Happy Endings", "Problem Child", "Slow Summer Dancin' (One Summer Night)", and then "The Way I Dreamed It" and "My Heart" for Doris Day. And even though those Doris Day songs were released like two years ago, it's pretty obvious that they are from the '80s. All around, that adds up to what, nine songs? So that's like 35 years. Nine songs. Wow.

I would't doubt that he hasn't written a new song in over twenty years. Some "professional songwriter" huh?


I don't quite agree. Maybe he coulda switched out "Shortenin' Bread" for "California Feelin'" or "Calendar Girl" and gotten rid of "Here Comes The Night", but besides that it was probably their best album, sound and "maturity" wise, since Holland. A lot of the songs were low key, especially Carl's. I feel "Angel Come Home" is actually kinda raw sounding with Dennis' vocal, with a cool late '70s vibe that was slick but not disgustingly overproduced. Same with "Love Surrounds Me".

The only thing that would have made the album better, besides Brian being well enough to produce it, woulda been more participation from Guercio, who it seemed had a bit of an investment in making the album work.

I don't care about Bruce's cheerleading or Al's conducting. They had a ton of other keyboard and guitar players up there anyway. You don't need 4 guitars for "Help Me Rhonda".

I do think Bruce is pretty meh, and always was. But he's harmless. The bands history could have really been different if Glen Campbell had joined, however. But no band seems to have more "if" scenarios than the BB.

I think of Bruce as a kind of Pat Boone guy - very, very white, square, Republican. Mike Love tends to swing right on the political spectrum, but he never seems as downright square as Bruce does. Maybe it's the hats. Yeah, it's gotta be the hats.  :police:

I think Bruce's biggest contribution when he came back was just to be a sane and sober Beach Boy which they badly needed. Nobody else could have filled that role come to think of it.

Nine pages of this?

Thanks for getting us closer to 10 Ed.

A most reasonable plaint. Elementary math will show that Bruce cannot be an original member.

Yes AGD, you clearly answered the question 9 pages ago. But here it is page 10.  Didn't mean to start a Bruce slagging contest but was being facetious as Mike's band page states he is an original member.  

But I have to say there has been some really funny stuff in this thread. And we have to do something till you give us some dirt on the MIC box.  Then this thread will sink like a stone.

Andrew, i thought you were British. Over here, it's maths, with an 's'. It's only in the US they say 'math'. Blimey, what next? Missing the 'u' out of humour?

Just to get back to the original point, rather than the whole "Mike is the Devil and Bruce his representative on Earth" thing this has deteriorated into:

No, of course Bruce isn't an 'original member', but at the same time it's not like the claim is that different from those made by other bands. I saw The Grandmothers in the mid-90s, and they were billed as "featuring Don Preston, Bunk Gardner and Jimmy Carl Black of the original Mothers Of Invention" -- Preston and Gardner joined for the Mothers' second album.

Similarly, last week I saw The Magic Band. The promotion for that gig, which you can see at http://bandonthewall.org/events/3824/ , says "Sharing the vision of celebrating the music of the late Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart), original members Denny “Feelers Rebo” Walley, Mark “Rockette Morton” Boston, and John “Drumbo” French share the stage with guitarist Eric Klerks and drummer Craig Bunch to re-visit the classic Beefheart tunes with renewed fervor."

Drumbo joined the Magic Band for their first album, but didn't play on their first single. Rockette Morton only joined for the third album, Trout Mask Replica, and Denny Walley didn't join the band until 1975, ten years after they started, and only stayed in for eighteen months, and didn't play on any albums released while Beefheart was alive.

While Bruce definitely isn't an "original Beach Boy" in the sense most of us would use it, that of being in the band from the beginning, that kind of phrasing seems to be used now when advertising 60s bands to distinguish people who were on at least some of the records the audience will remember from people who weren't. It may be an inaccurate way of putting it, but I don't think it's especially dishonest.

Core member is easily defined, and Bruce is certainly that. However, 'original' is subject to at least fifty shades of gray.

AGD, you answered the question on the first page. To go on this long, was strickly to start a hate thread on Bruce.

Agree. If Bruce is an original member then this page, page 10, could be the original page of this thread.

Jeff Foskett intro'd them during C50 as "originals!"

Good enough for me!   ;)

The 3 times I have seen Brian solo Jeff has claimed "Brian has written every song performed here tonight", when obviously he did not write Barbara Ann, Sloop John B and others.

In jest!  :lol

He started in 1965... ;)

Andrew is correct.

Everyone who claims Bruce started in 1965 is correct. :)

Wasn't it not until  1967, with 'Wild Honey', that Bruce became an official, credited member of the band? If we claim that 1965 Bruce was a Beach Boy, couldn't we then also claim that 1969 Ed Carter was a Beach Boy?

If Bruce didn't join the band until 1965, that doesn't make him an "original" member like the other guys who started with the inception of the band, does it?  Let's get a clue, people!  Bruce sure ain't a "founding" member either!

This thread is like reinventing the wheel....

Let's milk it for all it's worth.  What else?

How many hats do Mike and Bruce own?


But seriously, Bruce is nowhere near an original member.

Mike and Bruce have one hat, it's a beach boys hat with many color variations

Not to derail, but they always seem to refer to every line up before Frank briefly retired the name in 1969 as "the original Mothers of Invention". There were what, 6 - 7 line ups between Freak Out! to Weasels Ripped My Flesh?

Line-ups of the "original MOI" extend into double figures if you count stage line-ups that didn't necessarily appear on record.  (By these criteria, Van Dyke Parks was an original Mother too.)

To those complaining re the length of the this thread - just stop reading it. Me, i've found this one of the most enjoyable threads in a long time!

True, after I made my post I thought to myself "I majorly underguessed how many Mother line ups there were".

As Bruce joined in 65 after the formative surf years, should he be credited with as much 'Beach' as the 61ers and is his surfing today at 70 some attempt to readdress the issue?  >:D

Bruce was already in the surf music scene as one of the people behind the Rip Chords, so he comes by the surfing thing naturally. I'm pretty sure he's been surfing since he was a young guy, more than Mike Love has.

I did once look up the Rip Chords on All Music Guide, and discovered that Bruce didn't have many songwriting credits on their albums, in spite of being one of the bands masterminds/producers/singers. He co-wrote a few songs with Terry Melcher, but many songs of the Chords were from outsiders or written by Terry Melcher without Bruce being involved. So, I don't think Bruce was ever that much of a songwriter.

Yeah, when I think of Bruce, I think of a surfing Doris Day.


Here's a guy who's come out in the press for years being so supportive of Brian and his songs, then he says this:

"I'd swap a lot of the Beach Boys songs for just one 'Michelle.'"

Geez.

Mikie, when did Bruce say that? Man, that's damn near Beach Boy treason. ;)

I don't know what year or where he said it. Came from a Beach Boys 'Quotes' page. Typical contridictory statement. Here's a guy who said on the BBBritain forum that if there were ever a Beach Boys reunion, that he'd sit 5 rows back in the audience and just watch. Didn't happen, huh?

I think that's a real stretch Andrew. Comparing the MOI to America's greatest band, one on the level of the Beatles and Stones. If they'd Mick Taylor or Ron Wood as an original Stone, better comparison. But they don't.

The Beach Boys Band billing Bruce as an original member is just plain wrong.

Bruce is not an original member of anything except Bruce & Terry. He has been a long-time member of the BBs, however, and he's been enough of a fixture that no one will probably try to sue Mike or the BBs' corporate entity for misrepresentation if they make the claim that he's an original member.

The rest of the commentary in the thread, while often colorful, is simply extraneous to the original question.

Well, I think the Mothers were roughly a million times better than the Stones, so I may be biased ;)

I can dig that Andrew!

 Literal facts tell us that Bruce is a core member but not an original member. My 50th Anniversary Tour program does not include Bruce as a founding member. In an installment of the Summer 1989 TV series, Bruce told a young (now forgotten) band "I wasn't in the original band, so I get to say this" before praising Brian's talents.

   Perhaps the question comes down to this: In an existential sense, is Bruce Johnston a REAL Beach Boy?

 Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Dave are all real Beach Boys. Blondie and Ricky? Maybe not. Bruce? Worthy of debate.

He was on Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, California Girls, God Only Knows... of course he's a real Beach Boy.

 Ed Carter and Billy Hinsche played on stage and on records. Are they real Beach Boys? Not quite. They were hired hands and/or good friends. Bruce is somewhat more than that to be sure, but in some undefinable way his postion as a Beach Boy seems tenuous compared to the six listed above. My reasoning at this point again is more philosophical than literal. >just a mood.

 I never got that. Doris Day looked far better in a bathing suit than Bruce. It was an odd thought IMO.

OK, the board's slow, this is a fun topic, a lot of people are joining in, that's good, so...

Who made this quote and who did he say it to: "For six months you were a Beach Boy" Answer: Mike Love said it to Glen Campbell on the 25th Anniversary TV Special. Now, I know, he didn't mean it literally. Or, did he?

How close was Glen Campbell to being considered a real Beach Boy, like Bruce, Blondie, and Ricky? First of all, they gave Glen a striped shirt. You can't just shrug that off. David Marks got one, Al, got one, Bruce got one, and GLEN CAMPBELL got one. So, here's the big question:

What if Glen hung around for a couple of more weeks, and it was Glen who sang, "I wish they all could be California...", and, he appeared on the album cover of Summer Days And Summer Nights, and then he promptly left to become a solo performer, only to be replaced by Bruce Johnston. For the sake of discussion, would've that made Glen a Beach Boy?

Yes, without a doubt, no debate, Bruce is a REAL Beach Boy.

Ed Carter and Billy Hinsche were never corporate members (Bruce isn't now, but was briefly in the late 60s/early 70s), never sand lead or prominent backing vocal parts on the albums, never wrote songs for the band, never had their photos on album covers, never produced a Beach Boys album, never had their name incorporated in the band's publishing company name, never counted as members of the Beach Boys for contractual purposes when performing live, and were never referred to by the others as members of the Beach Boys.

Also, for me, Bruce's position as a Beach Boy is *far* less tenuous than David's. He was on far more records, made a far more notable creative contribution to the ones he was on, was in the band for decades longer, and is on almost all of the Beach Boys albums I find listenable all the way through. And that's not to knock David, but just... I can't even begin to comprehend how someone could consider it "worthy of debate" as to whether Bruce is a Beach Boy.

I don't know. Didn't Al get sued for using the Beach Boy's name in his billing. If the Brian, Al & David show really does well, and they get the BB name license, an issue like this would surely come up. Wouldn't surprise me if somebody notes this thread and the web site is changed. Happened before when the post 50th Mike/Bruce concert PR release led one to believe that Brian would appear.

It is kinda fun Sheriff.  Much rather be talking about the new box set.

I think the whole question of Bruce being a real BB comes from his cavalier and callous attitude about being in the group. Saying stuff along the lines of "this is a job and I  will never be into the music like the fans in a million years" doesn't help your case.

But Bruce just IS  a Beach Boy! Just look at him and listen to his voice! If this guy wasn't born to be a Beach Boy, I dunno who was!

In before AGD pulls his "you didn't get every single fact correct" card. Ed Carter apparently did write a song for the band called "Surfer Suzie" that was in the running for Keepin' The Summer Alive. Apparently AGD thinks it's good, but with a title like that, and lyrics like that (which I've read), I can't imagine how it'd even be passable.

I meant more from a fan's perspective and why people question his membership.

How's that callous? Cavalier, I can see, but callous?!
And plenty of musicians are in bands whose fans appreciate their music more than those musicians themselves do. I've read that Charlie Watts doesn't like the Stones' music much, but he's definitely a Rolling Stone.

Dislike Bruce's attitude all you like, but his attitude doesn't make him any less of a member of the band. I can't even see why there's a debate here as to whether he's a 'real' Beach Boy or not.

Charlie Watts plays the damn drums at least

Agreed, Bruce has been phoning it in for decades now.

Exactly! Brian and Mike don't need to prove a damn thing to anybody and both Dave and Al have released solo stuff.... Bruce adjusts his mike, gets paid and talks sh*t....... However, he IS a Beach Boy!

A very lazy one. :lol

Bruce once said several years ago that he considers himself more of a 'hired hand' than a 'real' Beach Boy. I still consider him one, though.

British fans (not sure if Andrew is) tend to have that opinion in general because Bruce was in the band when the Beach Boys became "famous" or mainstream in the UK. But in the US, if you are a first generation fan like me, we bought the albums one by one, and heard the hits one by one in the actual context as they came out. Our perspective is different. To the wave of fans that witnessed their rise to fame the Beach Boys were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David...a couple of years and five albums later David was gone and Al was the new guy...and couple of years and several albums after that Bruce appeared. So yes all of the things you say are true regarding Bruce being on more records, and in the band decades longer, and writing songs etc... But he came into the band a long time after they had become a household name in the US, and to many of us the Beach Boys glory days were behind them by the time we realized Bruce was a member of the Beach Boys. That's not to knock Bruce, that's just a perspective of someone who watched the Beach Boys history unfold in real time.

SMiLE Brian - I gotta agree with Pinder Goes To Kokomo.  When the Band needed a replacement for Brian (after Glenn Campbell) they got it right with someone who actually did surf music, and had some credentials, and did surf, which never got the airplay, that Dennis got.  He seems to really enjoy the gigs, goes out of his way, always for the special needs fans, and, keeps the audience engaged, while taking the heat for it.  

Fans I know, don't even blink when they talk "core" members and would laugh to hear it even discussed.  When someone has been around nearly 50 years, nit picking about "who was first?" seems ridiculous.  It reminds me of taking attendance in school.  He played Pet Sounds for the Beatles.  That was a great diplomatic stride to  privately let them hear that album.  Historic, really, given the perception or misperception that the bands were rivals.  They spurred each other to work harder, more creatively and that is a great thing.  

Moreover he was a member of BRI, upon formation, in 1966, according to what I've read.  Andrew tells us "1965," and Jeff Foskett says, "original" and even if it appears to be a conflict, longevity for Johnston and early involvement by Marks, (followed by a long absence) even as young and a sort of guitar prodigy, seem to confer that membership status.  David was a star on this tour. 

Any day of the week I'd rather have 5 than 3 Beach Boys!  ;)

Nit picking, no way. When it comes to Al or David, yup. But as Jon so well stated above, the Beach Boys were huge stars by the  time Bruce arrived. Bruce's time in Mike's tribute touring act doesn't count in my mind. The real Beach Boys stopped when Carl died and Al left. We only had a real Beach Boys again in 2012.

Billing Bruce as an original member is just Mike's management trying to legitimize Mike's faux Beach Boys.

Even though I wasn't born until the year before "Kokomo" came out, I more or less agree with this sentiment.  In terms of the sheer number of years each David and Bruce have respectively been part of The Beach Boys, Bruce has David beaten, and Bruce was also a member of the band when they released Pet Sounds and "Good Vibrations," and has audible vocal parts on "California Girls," "The Little Girl I Once Knew," and "God Only Knows," which David does not.  However, while David was a member of the band from before the beginning and had a major influence on their early sound, as far as I know Bruce had little influence on the band until at least "The Nearest Faraway Place" on 20/20.  In some ways, he didn't really emerge as a full-fledged band member until Sunflower, and he left after Surf's Up until L.A.  While I don't think his time as a Beach Boy since L.A. or even since 1998 should count for nothing, what matters more than the number of shows or albums is the legacy left on the band, and it seems to me pretty clear that David's was more fundamental.

And I'll bet Doris still looks better in white shorts than Bruce does.

Ugh, this wasn't your opinion until recently and I know this because you admitted so on this board. Until you started digging, you were like the many who didn't think much of David, and surely didn't think of Al as "the new guy." I'm not gonna lie, thanks to you I've come to think more of Dave as a true Beach Boy, and an important one, at that (they are all in my book though, even Blondie and Ricky).

To me, The Beach Boys are Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, Bruce, Dave, Blondie, and Ricky. To most of the public (who even care) it's Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, and Al. Or even worse it's Brian (he's nutty right), the one that drowned...uh Dennis (?), and the bald singer...Love I think? And some other guys.

Well I guess Bruce is an original member considering he joined the group 4 years after they began.. And having replaced Brian...  ;D

Jon has been very consistent on his history since I joined the board in 2006.  And reading "The Real Beach Boy", which I believe came out in 2000, since then too. Did you read it?

Heck, what was the first album cover Bruce was on, Friends, Smiley Smile back cover? Don't remember. 

Good point. The last time I saw Hamell on Trial, there wasn't one true original member onstage.

Some folks here reacted with shock when I commented last year about "Bruce being a great musician?" Can you really blame me when his playing is never audible at gigs, for that matter, i can't even pick his voice out in the mix. I can always hear Mike, Brian, Al or Carl but Bruce? His voice just doesn't stand out, with rare exceptions like California Girls and God Only Knows.

No, he's been consistent in his history for the most part, but I do remember at one point, he, like many of us admitted that he kinda blew off the David Marks side of the BB story until he really started looking into it.

You're not even old enough for that to be true are you?

People keep saying this, and it's just not true. Bruce's playing *used* to be inaudible at gigs in the 80s and 90s, and he clearly played practically nothing on the reunion tour. But in the Mike & Bruce band, where there are so few members, his keyboards are often quite an important part of the mix.

Despite his youthful appearance, I believe Jon is in his late 50s.  Certainly could have been a Beach Boys fan when they broke in the early 60's.

As he was presumably little more than an infant when David left the band, was that really old enough to consider Al to be, 'the new guy'?

Jon was probably 6-8ish. Same age I was mesmerized by the Beatles on Ed Sullivan.  I'd noticed if Ringo had left.

Let's look at this another way.  Let's consider how they regard one another, rather than the fan perception.   In an interview, David referred to the band as "family" and I've heard most of them use that term more than once, besides the blood relation the Band shares.  In a "family" as new members come along, whether, blood siblings, half-siblings, or adopted siblings, there is no distinction.  And there is no specific time limit placed upon being a member.  At some point, all five "principals" of the band, were "accepted" into the band "family" and, at this point, I regard it as moot.  

Mike's "faux" band, was sanctioned by BRI, after Carl died, and was authorized to tour under specific guidelines, which were clearly set forth. It is said that they were to perform the music in a prescribed BB style.  That would likely include the set lists that the Touring Band plays.  

And, The Touring Band, has found a market where they are very successful, and bring the BB music to more places than the C50 band ever could. And people (including me) rejoiced over the C50 "event" but there was no representation that it would continue beyond the "agreed upon" tour.  For that to happen, the board of BRI would have to make that decision.  

Whomever is playing that BB music, whether it is Brian or Al, or Mike and Bruce, if I can get there, I will. Incidentally, Brian's band played a lot of the same venues as the Touring Band, because I've seen them only weeks apart in the same venues.  Ya, there is prestige playing the big venues, but how long is that "sustainable?"

At the end of the day, whether you are in a modest hotel or a palace, you are still not in your own house, with your own coffee or tea pot in the morning.  Being on the road, cannot be an easy thing, jet-lagged and living out of a suitcase.  

I was five when my older sister brought the Surfin USA LP home, I remember it like yesterday. My neighbor had the first LP. From there we bought every Beach Boys LP as they were released. When Shut Down Vol. 2 came out we ALL thought Al was the new guy. The Beach Boys were huge in my neighborhood and it was a real mystery why David was suddenly gone. But starting in the early '70's i began reading up on the band and all the articles and soon to be released books told me David was a "brief" replacement for Al and that he had no real importance in the history of the band. Hmmm. I bought the myth. For many years I dismissed David. And as Sweedudejim wrongly contextualized... I admitted that in Dave's book, and on this board. It wasn't until I did my own research, and went back to the press of the early '60's and interviewed the people in and around the band that a revelation was revealed. David had been purposely written out of the Beach Boys history starting in 1964 and he never did anything to resist that. The truth was closer to what we all thought back in 1964, which was that David was an orig. member of the band that had been unceremoniously replaced with little explanation.

So, I was young...but I saw the Beach Boys early days through the eyes of my teenage sisters and their friends who were all big fans of the group. I did see the group's history as a first generation fan, we all thought David was part of the group roll call, just like John, Paul, George and Ringo were for that other group. Seeing Al appear on album five was weird and shocking to us..."who is THAT guy?"  Later, in the 70's, I became a Beach Boys "aficionado" who was being sold a myth that David was basically nothing, just a face on those covers...and since respected historians like David Leaf and Tim White also basically gave the Murry approved spin in their writings... I relegated David to the "fill in" status until about 2005 when I found out that the name Al Jardine was in no Beach Boys press prior to David's departure. That seemed odd. So I dug deeper and slowly understood what I eventually wrote in David's book. The story of the Beach Boys genesis had NEVER been written correctly by any historian, mainly because Murry systematically blotted David's part of it out, and David had never really bothered to correct that...until we wrote his book.

As a relatively recent die-hard fan (grew up listening and loving the Boys, but only recently started digging deeper), it's very tough for me to pick out contributions from David or Bruce in any given song-- aside from instrumental solos or lead vocals, of course.  Listening to a vocal stack, for example, I can always ID Brian, Mike, and Al (and Carl and Dennis most of the time), but I can't for the life of me ID Bruce.  And when it comes to guitars, it could be David or anybody else.  I'm not refined enough to be able to detect (or care) who's who on what, instrumentally.

From what I've read/seen in interviews and documentaries, I really like Dave and am pretty blah on Bruce.  I guess my point in regards to the topic is that from a casual fan perspective, it's like, Bruce who? (and this coming from somebody who shares his politics)

Granted, my die-hardness is still young.  I'm open to the possibility that I will be able to clearly ID Bruce in the vocal stack and come to appreciate his contributions more as time goes on.  Perhaps I'll even come to like "Disney Girls" or "Dierdre" too!

My experience is similar's to Jon's. David was one of the BBs when I discovered the band in my early teens, just as they were starting to chart. One of the things I really like, then and now, about the early BBs was how Carl and Dave worked so well together as guitarists. When David left, I had the same reaction to Al -- who is this new guy? The explanation that Al was one of the originals ameliorated the surprise of seeing a new face, but there was no real reason given about why Dave left. (Thanks a lot, Murry....)

The first time I saw Bruce was at his second-ever concert with the BBs in Memphis, 1965. By then I'd heard about Brian's breakdown, so it was somewhat less of a surprise to see an unfamiliar face onstage.

That's odd -- a couple of people have said that, and yet the one place where I do see some tiny amount of merit to the "Bruce isn't real" argument is that his vocals have always stuck out for me like a sore thumb in the harmony stack. All the other band members have a family sound, even the non-family members (and weirdly even Blondie and Ricky to an extent -- Blondie could sound spookily like Carl at times to my ears), yet Bruce sounds nothing like any of them. I *like* his voice, but it didn't fit the blend especially well.

As for David Marks, I certainly wasn't meaning to belittle him by the comparison I was making. For the record, yes, I'm British, and a generation younger than Jon. I got into the band through Pet Sounds after the Mojo piece in 1995, but it must have been a good three years after I became a fan before I heard any songs David was on other than Surfin' Safari, 409, In My Room and Surfer Girl -- I didn't get the early albums until long after I'd already got everything from 1965 through 1996, although I got the GV box in 98. I think it's great that he's finally getting the recognition he is so long overdue, I think he's a very good guitarist, and the one time I met him he seemed like a lovely person, but he isn't on any of the stuff that made me a fan.

I actually thought of one band/project where I liked Bruce's voice -- Sagittarius. Bruce has a cute-sy, novelty sound to his voice, and it works the way it was used in that band's songs on "Present Tense."  His voice also would have fit better in a band such as The Association.

Interesting, Andrew.  I still can't pick him out individually, but I will concede that without Carl and Dennis, the vocal stack does not have that same family sound.  Frankly, that family sound isn't way apparent to me in their 70's stuff, where the harmony seems really light-- almost an afterthought.  But on the whole, you could probably replace Bruce in today's stack with any of the touring band supporting vocalists and I probably wouldn't notice.  Remove even one of Brian, Al, or Mike, though, and the quintessential Beach Boys sound is lost.  Which is why I'm not way into the BW solo stuff. 

Even though as Andrew says his voice doesn't fit in the family stack, I really liked all his background vocals on Pet Sounds, Sunflower, and especially on Smile. His voice may have been different, but Brian usually placed it to good effect.

Oh, I *love* his backing vocals. They just don't blend all that well -- but not everything has to.

So where can I hear this Bruce you speak of?  Is there a particular track or point in a track that would help me see your point?

God Only Knows, Wonderful, All I Wanna Do, Cottonfields (Single version), are four that I can think of right off the bat.

And that's a perfect bridge back to the subject of this thread, because for millions of first generation Beach Boys fans...since Bruce isn't on the '62 - '64 material that initially made them fans he does not feel like an "original" Beach Boy.

The early stuff through Summer Days will always be my favorite stuff, therefore David is a God!

news must be slow. 13 pages on a stupid thread! of course bruce is not an original member. solid core member...yes. original..no.

Problem is you didn't read thee thread.

It was a facetious question. Everyone on this site knows Bruce isn't sn orig BB.

The point is Mike is promoting Bruce as an original Beach Boy on his web site.

Does anyone remember that video someone posted a while back where Bruce makes a daring leap during (I think) a C50 performance of "I Get Around"???

Edit:
Nevermind, found it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ0Zn-zerc8

Trust the Chinese to know whats what! ;D

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/102774/8172252.html


'The Shanghai concert will feature Mike Love and new members Bruce Johnston, Christian Love, Randell Kirsch, Tim Bonhomme, John Cowsill and Scott Totten.'

M&B need to perform in North Korea next.... ::)

:lol :lol :lol

 :lol

Bruce is the perfect example of an all-round entertainer..

Not only can he knock out a cheesy ballad  but he's doing high flying stunts too

2013, and Bruce is still a new member? If 1965 is the cut off (no pun intended, Bruce), then the Byrds and the Lovin' Spoonful are still new groups.

All the Bruce bashers need to eat their words with a fork and spoon as this video clearly shows he doesn't "just clap his hands and adjust his mic endlessly" at concerts........ he also randomly jumps around Mike when the urge takes him.

I'm still trying to figure out what Bruce is doing. Trying to tie his antics into the song......"None of the guys go steady 'cause it wouldn't be right, to leave their best girls home on a Saturday night"........Bruce runs up to Mike and Mike holds his hand up to ward him away. Like playfully saying.......back off. Can't really tie his jumping around to the song lyrics. Then he goes back behind the keyboard to stand around and adjust his mic. Maybe Bruce is just estatic knowing it's pay day and he can knock back a Pacifico after the gig and talk to the press about how his boy John Boehner is doing these days. He knows that there's keyboardists behind him playing the real chords turned up in the mix and he doesn't have to do sh*t.

Clap clap clap clap. Smile smile smile smile. Wave wave wave wave.

Update Bruce is still and original member of Bruce and Terry; and a real Beach Boy.

And I still wonder what happened to that solo album he talked about on the BBB like 6 years ago.  
Supposed to be, if I recall, simple demo like songs he's written.  I'd buy it.

ps - Trying to move down the "Rank the Tracks" explosion.