The Smiley Smile Message Board

I recently did a humorous video about this, but now I want to get this off my chest, just shooting straight. This is copy/pasted from my facebook, but I figured it would make a great discussion here. This was inspired by an argument I got into with some people who spammed Lay's Facebook page with copy/pasted messages 'I choose the non-GMO flavor oh wait there isn't one' . Or, they would post attacks at anybody posting there who said they liked Lay's chips. One true fuckaroo actually compared this woman to Hitler because she said her son didn't like the Sriracha chips...he told her she was a bad mother and might as well have gassed him like 'her hero' Hitler. I about flipped my sh*t when I read that. Anyway, here's my rant, and I'm interested in getting your takes on this.

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Those protestors speaking out about GMOs and Monsanto have their hearts in the right place, but are going about it completely wrong. Spamming companies' Facebook pages isn't doing anything good...it just makes them look like whack jobs. Those pages aren't read by anybody 'important' in the company...just by somebody probably making minimum wage, working part-time. The thing that makes me ROFLMAO is the fact that they are saying 'X company uses GMOS...boycott. Eat Y instead', when company Y may not be made from genetically modified corn, but contains milk from cows...who have eaten genetically modified corn. I would rather eat organic food, but there are several issues with that. First, the price is prohibitive much of the time. Second...the way food is regulated makes it easy for a company to put on a sticker that says 'organic' when it also contains crap. If you see something that says 'natural flavors' in the ingrediants, run like hell. These 'natural flavors' are just as harmful for you as the artificial ones. Why do you think they aren't identified? Who regulates whether or not something qualifies as a "natural flavor?" Who does inspections at factories and laboratories, or is that left up to the manufacturer, much like the way it's up to vaccine manufacturers to report adverse effects? When the police themselves are crooks, there's no "policing" of the crimes they are committing. In fact, the whole differentiation of GMO & artificial from Natural & Organic has become a murky mess. The line of distinction between foods labeled "all natural" and cancer causing food is not only blurred, it barely exists. Remember...arsenic and cyanide are both natural. So when you buy something that's organic, vegetarian, or vegan, and it has "natural flavoring," you could be eating a pig, cow, turkey, chicken, or lamb which was shot up with growth hormones, fed GMO pesticide-laden corn and grain - probably mixed with other animals of it's same breed, then shot up with antibiotics due to infections and diseases from living in confined quarters on slats covered in feces. Yummy. Protest all you want, but remember that the time you spend protesting against Frito-Lay/Pepsico, just to use that as an example, should be spent protesting against the FDA itself. Wasting time protesting against those companies is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot. I guess it doesn't matter WHAT we eat, because no matter what, we're going to be eating something harmful whether we realize it or not. Guess I'll go eat me some chips and hope for the best. Life's already too short...might as well enjoy it while protesting, folks.

I just have trouble with the word organic in that definition anyway (even though I do like organic food). By definition, all food is organic, it's carbon-based!

Good point... that is one of the reasons why labeling can be so deceptive.

What's stopping people from growing their own produce in their own backyard? Seeds aren't exactly difficult to come by

That's what more people should do. Land issues can be a problem in more urban areas though.

exactly...

I might be naive, but I see protesting such companies as pointless, because all we have to do (as free market consumers) is stop buying said companies products and they would go belly-up. End of story.

Not that simple when most people will still be uninformed/won't care about GMOs.

Protesting is good because it gives awareness to people who wouldn't likely know about GMOs (they're not going to hear about Monsanto much on the news). After people get informed, they have to decide whether it's worth the trouble of planting a garden, harvesting, spending more at the butcher, etc. Most people are so heavily ground into the current culture that they won't care.

I agree, protesting on facebook doesn't do much (and most of those people probably still support Monsanto in some way). But it does help make people aware of a problem. Unfortunately, we were all forced into a society that is addicted to cheap food...so I doubt too many will care anyways.

Rab otm. Awareness is key.

Heard about the horsemeat thing going on here? Apparently because of incredible deregulation in the industry, coupled with the massive need for el cheapo food, and (the govt thinks) a criminal conspiracy, horsemeat has been finding its way into beef products, from bargain ready meals to IKEA meatballs, and most things inbetween, like school dinners to prison and hospital food.

Now I'm a reasonable man, but I don't really fancy eating horses. I don't even like horses that much alive, let alone being ground into mince and mis-sold to me.

The thing is, who the hell am I supposed to boycott if everyone's at it?  It's a good time to be a butcher, I suppose. But the same is key with GM food - if everyone makes it and sells it, simply saying 'boycott' isn't good enough as there isn't much alternative for some things.

Just thinking out loud tbh.

And people wonder why we age faster than in previous generations...

Nice rant and well written!

There will of course be alternatives if people demand alternatives, producers will pick up on that in an instant.

Most people don't care what's in their food so why should producers? Most people just assume what's sold is not bad (but they probably know it is not that good). Using horse meat instead of cow meat is an act of crime and the ones guilty will therefor be investigated (if they find out who's guilty). I am pretty sure large companies like IKEA (the oldest IKEA in the world is situated 40 minutes from where I live, yes I'm digressing) are now very likely to control the meat they sell meticulously from now on. They can not afford another scandal --> the quality of their meat products will go up. That is the beauty of capitalism - private companies always have to please their customers and they always have to improve due to tougher competition, new technology, change in customer demand and so on. The market will correct itself.

My main point is if it is hard to boycott something it is because people in general are satisfied or don't care. Long story short. :)

Then what we do is support local butchers!

But then if we all support local butchers and all the huge meat outfits go under, do the local butchers form one big corporation where demand skyrockets, as do profits, and then before we know it: in goes the horse-meat?

And Swedish Frog: I hope you're right, but human greed knows no limits no matter what tern you use to describe it.

I think people do care - the newspapers were up in arms about it for two or three weeks (a long time considering Oscar Pistorius, a resigned pope, someone having a go at Kate Middleton and former Cabinet Ministers resigning, etc),  butchers have reported massive leaps in sales, supermarkets are apparently suffering on the stock market, who knows about their profit margins yet - and I think you give people far too little credit. Just because people eat cheap food doesn't mean they don't care what they're eating! If I get a McDonalds, I'd at least like to think I was eating beef (granted, the shittiest beef known to man, but still, beef). But over here the public furore has been rather strong. Hopefully the govt goes against type on this one and actually regulates something in the public interest.

....We can't avoid the horse, Pinder!

If you buy a burger from Burger King you have both "signed" a contract once you have paid for the burger. If BK then hands over a burger of meat that is not the type of meat that was agreed upon they have violated your contractual agreement and that is when the government and the judicial system come into play.

They way I see it.

I find it funny that they've been referring to the "Mr. Ed in my meat" product as being "contaminated" ...... So, they're saying that patties formed by the scrap bits of SEVERAL different cows and mashed together and infected by ...... MEAT? ....

Or they're are misinformed/uneducated. My beef (no pun intended heh) with Capitalism is that when your society is dumbed down, the market can only really benefit the smart/rich ones (as America has proven today). We're so susceptible to ridiculous marketing ploys that 'Natural Flavors' sounds healthy to us (and as Billy mentioned above, they're not). We're slaves of the oil companies (you can't just boycott gasoline) and we're destroying our ecosystem because of it.

Humans are short sighted. We're not all well educated. And these factors contribute to why I think the free market doesn't fairly work in todays world.

But I'm just babbling haha

Well, there is also the risk of horse tranquillisers and other such medication given to these nags but not suitable for humans entering the food chain if you decide to cut a corner or two and throw them in the grinder, as was discovered in France. 

A society where every single citizen is educated (meaning paying into the university/state system earning degrees) would simply not work, so the uneducated  folk need to have access to the same safeguards as the rest of us.

True. One thing... what is 'well educated'? The only reason why I don't have my college degree is because my degree plan changed without me knowing, so my last year I took a year's worth of 'worthless' courses as they didn't count towards my degree; my grant was revoked as a result. I have worked with college grads who were as dumb as a rotten turnip. But...that's a rant for a different time!

In this day and age NO ONE needs to go to a university to get educated (we have free libraries and the internet). But people don't because they're lazy/don't see the point in education if they're seemingly happy. And a lot of people who do go to universities go just to get a fatter paycheck.

I mean educated in the sense that it's actually productive to our survival as a species. Eating genetically modified food, breathing in car fumes, not giving a damn about changing our habits to keep our natural world protected - most college graduates don't give a hoot about this stuff.

The current free market is run by billionaires betting on people's ignorance.

Again, I'm not really making a solid point here, just babbling.

Actually I consider that a damn solid point

My point about "educated" was, people with advanced degrees or even a degree who would never consider working an industrial or retail or food service job.... Of course being from  rich families usually  has a lot to do with this.... I'm talking about all the lawyers and computer tech people we produce here in this country.... I didn't mean "smart" by any stretch of the word.

I kind of figured. I have seen an increase of people with BAs waiting tables, which is scary for someone who is still job hunting...gah...something's gotta change

Or maybe it's a good thing.... Smarter people doing such jobs will only increase the quality of those jobs therefore forcing up up-kick in wages for such jobs? Or am I just dreaming. Then again, just about every single job conceivable requires intelligence.... If even just to navigate all the managerial subterfuge.

I guess I'm missing what your definition of educated has to do with my initial point.

I was kind of just making my own point, I guess

Okay, my bad for misunderstanding. You did raise a good point.

Thank you. I'm not sure I even know what my point was, so that means a lot :)

Lots of people I know with degrees work in shops and pubs. No-one I know thinks they're above anything, they just want to work.... I mean, just as part of the phenomenon you're trying (erroneously?) to describe, I should probably chip in on that one.

Oh, I know! I used to work at a Borders where I had wonderful, brilliant co-workers, some with masters degrees and above, but they all ended up moving on because you simply can't make a living (for long as the cost of living goes up and up) working such jobs, but other co-workers without those degrees tended to stay put.

Such is life, I suppose.

Yeah, and that sucks.... I think the people working at Borders and propping up these billionaire CEOs should be paid a wage that keeps up (at least) with the cost of living etc.... Then again Border is gone now, and in a large part, because of their shift in focus away from customer service and their whittling down of staff and hours in order to avoid paying benefits.

This isn't the case, unfortunately. We're talking about institutional power here. I applaud anyone who makes conscious consumer choices but it is simply impossible to affect anything that way. This is simply a historical truth. One can only change institutional power by mobilizing activist community groups or becoming part of a joined effort to challenge it. Let's not forget that institutionalized power has an enormous support system, which includes, above all else the very economic infrastructure of the nation. One person choosing to buy or not buy something has a positive side, certainly. The positive side is that we should all play an active role in independently deciding for ourselves what we should purchase based on a fairly strong value system. The negative side is that these actions can be ultimately strictly self-congratulatory since they have zero effect on the institution. The other negative aspect is they can give one the illusion that they are affecting real change which works to prevent people from taking real steps that could affect genuine change. This is why the Occupy movement has always been of crucial importance.

I've always wondered what would happen if, say, somehow we all united in America and everyone stopped going to McDonalds... Insane thing to imagine, but if it DID happen, I can hardly see McDonalds just laying down and dying.... What steps would they take to reverse this and how far would they go? Could they somehow manage it that we ended up with no choice but to support their corporation?

Well, in this case, they would have a difficult time surviving for sure. I don't necessarily think we're living in 1984-times and that we are stuck with the corporation forever. If I did, I would be quite seriously depressed. However, what's difficult is getting to this point that you mention - where we are all united. Actually, I think the most important step would be for McDonalds to be run entirely by the people, not by a corporate structure. Once that occurs, the incentives to keep poisoning the public will disappear.

How do you get to this point where McDees is completely run by the people? We're so engrained in this society of Capitalism(Corporatism?), and no one wants to give it up...people are too uneducated, too unaware, too lazy (including me) - as in: I see the problem, but the solution is so far beyond a concept of conventional thought that it just seems impossible to accomplish...And most people would say: I'm somewhat happy, I've got my health, etc, why bother with changing the system?

Its a really nice thought, as corporations are basically running/ruining America, but I can't see that ever happening

Well, I think that communication would play a crucial role. My hunch is that if you told someone that they could have control over the work that they do rather than be simply wage slaves then they would more than likely believe that to be a good idea. However, you face two problems. When institutional power controls most information and knowledge, you automatically sound crazy since what you're talking about flatly goes up against what is accepted as truth and reality. The other problem is communicating this information in a way that people understand it. I'm not saying that they are incapable of intellectual thought - rather, different people have different concerns and the real problem with the activist community is not understanding how to talk to people on their own terms.

It's worked plenty of times both within and outside of the United States: the anarchist collectives in the Second Spanish Republic, the Italian factory occupations, the Argentina take overs, worker-run enterprises based on the Cleveland model, the kibuttz organizations in Israel, etc.

Easier said than done when these very same corporations have somehow convinced a large number of us that not only is it OK to get by with this "I got mine and there's nothing that can be done" mentality, but have also convinced us that an  "I got mine"  mentality is strong and patriotic but  "And don't you dare put a penny of it toward making things better or helping anyone else"  just completes the thought....... and that health care is a commodity to be denied.... Everyone screams about their rights in a country where no one has the right to damn thing.

EXACTLY.

I absolutely agree. The thing that people who want change have to realize too is that these are long term goals. They don't happen overnight. They happen after long periods of communication, and community-building, and discussion, and so forth. These kinds of changes takes years -- decades. It's a long haul. This is why something like faux-libertarianism is so popular in the United States - it substitutes these very challenging actions that require getting your hands dirty with intellectual games and self-aggrandizing rhetorical tricks.

Great post(s)

Is there any good literature on this topic that you'd recommend? Preferably, literature that addresses these issues in layman's terms?

Yep. There's lots of stuff but the first one to spring to mind is Gar Alperovitz’s book, America Beyond Capitalism. Here's a Google Books version which I hope you can access:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=AhnnzvPqWHEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gar+Alperovitz+America+Beyond+Capitalism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7HEtUeCXM7Pp0QGg4IDgCQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=youngstown&f=false (http://books.google.ca/books?id=AhnnzvPqWHEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gar+Alperovitz+America+Beyond+Capitalism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7HEtUeCXM7Pp0QGg4IDgCQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=youngstown&f=false)

Begin with the Preface to the First Edition and the stuff on Youngstown. The important stuff is written in very plain language.

People's History Of The United States is a good one too, even though people bash Zinn for being, gulp, a liberal.....

"It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclare Lewis might not fit the bill completely but I still recommend it

People's History is a great book.

Thanks guys! Will check those out. The googlebooks America Beyond Capitalism works, will start reading that tonight.

Hi all,

Interesting topic.  I know next to nothing about what goes on at a personal level in the US.  I do know that protesting can make positive impacts.  I have done a lot of protesting, mainly about stopping gas companies pillaging indigenous lands and animal welfare situations here in Aus and Asia. People generally want to do the right thing, but they have to know about it first and know alternatives etc, that's what protesting can do. In regards to buying practices being effective; I can use the example of cage versus free range eggs here in Aus.  Once people started to make a fuss about buying free range, the government passed that eggs had to be labelled cage or free range.  Of course most people started buying free range, even though they are more expensive, and the cage eggs were just left on the shelves.  Because of this Woolworths who are one of the two big grocery chains here has declared that they will ONLY sell free range eggs and have since moved on to meat and fish (no sow cages etc).  So I think it's a bit of both.  I am at university now studying animal rights law because I hope to make a difference at the legislation level. 

Yeah, you're dreaming. :)

The (disappearing) middle class serving coffee is not a good sign or development, the middle class should produce more advanced goods and services than that. The reason why "middle classers" now serve coffee and wait tables is because no other jobs are available to them (for whatever reason, I am not getting into that).

Many of the middle class jobs are gone. This will not lead to higher wages, but lower overall wages. A cafe can only make so much money, a multinational affluent company like IKEA can afford to pay their workers higher wages than a local cafe. Export companies (traditionally the manufacturing industry) used to be the backbone of western societies and they are vital because they create an influx of currency into a country and that currency is then used to obtain/import wealth (goods and services that make people's life better, but are being produced abroad). Cafes generally don't export anything and the country therefor has less currency to obtain/import wealth --> the country is therefor gradually morphed into a third world type of society.

When it comes to protesting Wild-Honey made an excellent point. Protesting can make a difference if enough people are in on it and if consumers can choose between "bad/evil" products and "good" products.

I agree to an extent but simply seeing your options as merely choosing between good and bad products is in itself a consequence of institutionalized power. The point should not be choose between options that are being given to you, since that can only reinforce institutional power, but rather to take control of the industry in a united way. But making wise consumer decisions is a step in the right direction - however, it is important to recognize that it is only a step, and really a first step if anything.