The Smiley Smile Message Board

It was getting quite passionate on the box set thread and it looks like people have much to say from both sides.

Personally there's nothing from the last 15 years or so that does anything for me. Even recent Beach Boy/Brian stuff fails to make much of an impression on me.

It seems--and I hope--not.

I'm mostly astonished that people dismiss hip-hop entirely, as if that genre is some kind of monolithic entity that has only one sound or style. Is it that it gets judged by the standards of rock music, which is wholly inappropriate? Is it that some of you seriously think rapping or sampling are not artistic endeavours? Nobody would ever say that they hate rock music because it all sounds the same, and that sound is bad -- whoever did would be correctly ridiculed for knowing nothing about the many varied styles of rock music! The same is true of hip-hop (or country for that matter, another genre lots of people [not necessarily here] dismiss completely as well). I'm suspicious that it has nothing to do in some cases with a valuation of the sorts of people who most obviously listen to these types of music: poor people, black or white. Whereas these days rock music is accepted as non-threatening middle-class music, maybe hip-hop seems too alien and aggressive? But I digress: I think mostly such unfounded dislike of hip-hop is based on what gets played on top 40 "urban" radio -- and although I'd much rather listen to that than the equivalent top 40 rock, in both cases you're rarely getting more than lowest common denominator stuff. A lot of great hip-hop is mixtape-based these days anyway too.

Good music is subjective.  I think a lot of board members' issues with current music stems from several reasons:

1)Production- They don't care for auto-tune (even I feel it gets old after a while), and everything is brickwalled to hell
2)Peer pressure- Sounds silly, yes, but I'm sure there are some people here who are afraid to admit to liking something because the majority of the board doesn't. I admit to falling into this category for a while.
3) Being closed minded- Much like my generation (b.1978) dismissed the music I listened to because it was 'old', there are some folks who don't want to like anything recorded past a certain point BECAUSE it is new, and dismiss it out of hand. Or, it's not recorded in analog and released on vinyl.  

I do think some of it stems from prejudice. NOT racial prejudice, but because it's the 'music of the young' or whatever. 'Oh, those damn kids and their hippin, and a-hoppin...their bippin' and a-boppin...they done forgot what the blues is all about'.*  I share some of it too...I don't care a lot of the music from the 1950s, but a good deal with that has to do with the fact that I despise the decade itself. Sorry, but the whole 'let's wear our letterman jackets while we take Betty Lou & Mary Sue to the soda hop and chill out to Pat Boone while accusing people of communism and harassing people because of their color of the skin or their political beliefs'.  Before I get a whole bunch of angry PMs, that was a round-about and somewhat exaggerated way of saying I can understand why some people can easily dismiss the music from right now because they don't like the society as it is now. But, that just causes them to miss out on some good stuff, just like I'd be missing out on some good stuff just because Pat Boone makes me want to break stuff and set cats on fire.

I think Dr. Voldelabra put it well too.


*Whomever gets that reference wins the No-Prize(tm)

The argument itself is about 20 years too late. It's like arguing about this new, crazy rock 'n' roll music in 1973. Hip hop has dominated popular music for a couple of decades. It isn't the fringe insurgent, it is long-since established mainstream. Rock is the not-quite-dead dinosaur. And that's going to change, too, because that's the nature of culture.

People form their musical loves as they first think, f***, and drink (or smoke). Then after a decade or so of formation, they stop absorbing new types, instead measuring what they hear against the "good stuff" of their formative years. They might follow those old bands, the new bands that mimic, or just fetishize the details of a handful of albums, but they're basically done. So nothing new can satisfy them ... which is good, because that lets the cycle repeat.

It's a boring argument or complaint. If you hate what is new, it's because you're doing what you're supposed to do. goshdarn kids and their noise...

Thank you... you put it better than me for sure!

Edit

I gotta take issue with one thing though... I'm still listening to new things and trying to expand my horizons ( just now getting into Johnny Cash , for example )

I suppose to add to the habituation argument you could say it's easier these days than it ever was before to keep yourself musically contained to those sounds you obviously, immediately like since there's no shortage of websites that cater to specific styles. If you don't listen to the radio -- whether top 40, community, or otherwise -- or make an effort some other way then you don't even need to be exposed to unfamiliar music if that's your thing. I kind of think that's unfortunate, honestly.

So am I, at the ripe old age of 36. But my point is that what is being made en masse is being made for a reason and for an audience. There are outside-peak-age listeners open to new things, but they are fringe characters. Not better, not worse, but not in the mainstream.

Good point

1. I could make a good argument that popular music has been going downhill since about 1900. The late Romantic-early Modern period of classical music was the era when music reached the height of its complexity; once jazz came on the scene and replaced classical music as the "popular" music of the day, was when "popular" music started becoming less complex - presuming one is going to define "going downhill" as something that becomes "less complex." (I'm sure there are people who will argue that jazz isn't "less complex" than classical music, but I would say it is).

2. That said, most genres of music seems to go through a series of stages where it starts out simple, gets more complex through time, then at some point it becomes too complex to appeal to the masses; then you get a period where it goes through some sort of retro period (albeit with significant differences from the "early" period) ... then after that it's mostly downhill. Face it: Once a few hundred thousand or so songs or pieces of some genre have been written, there's increasingly less room to find something to write that doesn't sound like something that's already been written.

3. As much as I dislike it, I "understand" why rap/hip-hop became popular - there was pretty much nowhere else to go. Rock music in the 70's had reached, in some bands, levels of complexity previously breached only by some jazz and classical (indeed, many of these pieces were deliberate jazz/classical fusions). At that point it was difficult for music to get still more complex while retaining popular appeal, so the only thing to do was to get *less* complex. 80's techno-rock was a step in that direction. The other way to do that would be to devise a new genre in which melody is eliminated entirely; poetry spoken to a beat (rap). Maybe the next genre to spring up will be pure melodies sung with total disregard to anything resembling a time signature, or something like that (though I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already done that).

4. Again, not that I like it, but not long ago I had a discussion on another forum where people were pointing out to me rap/hip-hop songs written to 3/4 and other "different" time signatures, with acoustic guitars and other, non-electric instruments, and all kinds of other things. There *is* some creativity in rap and hip-hop. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be the most popular stuff.

5. Read through comments on youtube of 90's rap songs. You will find A LOT of rap fans who think that was the Golden Age of rap and the stuff nowadays is crap (it all sounds the same to me, though! ;)). I've read so many comments like that, it makes me think rap is already in its downhill stages, as if 90's rap is akin to mid-60's through mid-70's rock. I suspect in about 20 years it will clearly be a dying genre.

Rap was a natural evolution from what James Brown and Gil Scott-Heron were doing, mixed with Jamaican toasting. I wonder what could've turned out if Brian had met Stephen Kalinich in 1966, though, and had the idea to mix poetry with the Spector sound.

My issue with a lot of commercial hip hop is that it's OVERPRODUCED, if anything, at least for the past 5 years or some. I'm more partial to the southern crunk style, myself.

  I've actually been working on something like that for the past year and a half!

One reason I don't think this cycle is entirely true this time is, I have found A LOT of young people who like the Beatles, BB's, Led Zeppelin and other rock groups from the 60's and 70's. This is 30-50 year-old music! When I was growing up it was practically unheard of for kids my age to listen to, let alone prefer, 30-50 year old music. Sure, we liked the occasional Sinatra tune, but it's not like we went out and bought heaps of Sinatra records and played it at parties. But now, the impression I get from talking to teenagers and 20-somethings is that it is pretty common to like "old" music. The fact this has now become pretty common tells me that current music is lacking in something even teenagers and 20-somethings yearn for, and which they can only find in their parent's music (and by now some of it is even their grandparent's music!).

Also, when I was growing up (mostly in the 70's) my own parents liked a lot of then-current music, even though they were in their 30's and 40's. In fact, a lot of my own musical taste comes from listening to records my parents bought. Is the same thing happening a lot nowadays? Maybe, but I don't think on a large scale.

Growing up when I did, it wasn't like that. About the only band my generation liked that was older was the Beatles. I think that's something that's changed in the past 10 years or so. Today's youth seems to like their stuff and older stuff almost on an equal level.

Another factor is that there are people, including people on this board, who believe that the height of civilization was over 200 years ago and therefore anything that isn't inspired by that time or working within the parameters established in that time simply cannot be good.

Sounds like my music theory teacher in college. If it wasn't written by Bach, it wasn't music. He actually said that in class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwKXggW7naI

I always counted this as sort-of the first (or one of the first) rap song. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nULwgHsVqw

Here's where Bob got it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2nRjGHE620

Dylan sort-of sings, and Chuck Berry sings in the refrain. The Stone's song, however, is pretty much all talk.

I take that back: Jagger seems to actually sing notes in the "I'm a-tattered" and "Does it matter" lines. And kinda-sorta "I'm a-shattered" lines.

Oh well.

Looks like I'm not the only one who noticed this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping#History

And lots of rappers "speak" notes melliflously, in key and rhythm, and many sing sections of songs. Listen to more hip-hop, you'll hear this.

Hell, every one of Drake's flows are half-sung to begin with.

Yeah I realize that, but generally speaking, rap is largely "spoken" music. Melody is largely non-existent, except for a few sung notes here and there, and the occasional artist who prefers a lot of songs that way. Hip-hop is a different story.

Here's some of the rap/hip-hop songs some other guys pointed out to me in another forum which do have what I consider musical creativity. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go out and buy these, but I do recognize there's a good amount of musical thought gone into these.

Jazz-rap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=is5xMd1nT5o

This one is actually pretty good, sort-of Michael Jackson-esque. I once did a temp agency job and the guy I was working with listened to a lot of stuff like this, it was actually listen-to-able:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6tpl9LtkRRw

Acoustic guitar, samba-style. Nice background, but pretty typical rapping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D6WThN_5GQs

Nor really rap nor hip-hop, but still nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ORVz_qeKgvg

Rap songs in 3/4 time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yOUqx0gZiGQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kiF1dXopPBo

This seems to be in some weird time signature I can't figure out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GjQLhj4kzR4

This one switches between 4/4 and 3/4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VygzT4ieez4

Not the forum I was referring to, but some interesting discussion on another forum here (http://rateyourmusic.com/board_message?message_id=3170654&board_id=1&show=20&start=0), where I got some of those videos.

You got Gorillaz listed on here...not really hip hop. It's a side project for the guy from Blur with guests.

There's plenty of musically interesting hip-hop, what the hell is wrong with some of you? And that still wouldn't make it good, I think. Das Racist can make pretty dense (both lyrically and musically) hip-hop... I just think it's terrible hipster garbage. Whatever that song of theirs is where they rap about White Castle is awful: They try and cram too many syllables and words into lines and verses, and the beat sounds like someone listened to Bomb Squad production thinking it wasn't "busy" enough, deciding to just overload the beat with... stuff happening.

Rapping isn't really "talking," anyhow. An element of rap that impresses me is vocal inflection. There is pitch in almost anything if you are sensitive enough to it. I once heard that a toilet flushes in Eb -- that's probably total bullsh*t, but you get what I'm saying. I love the pitches guys like Eminem and Tech N9ne will use their flows, and without singing, these guys can make a very dynamic vocal track. And that's not even mentioning the rhyming, which is a whole skill on its own with multi-syllabic lines, inverted rhymes, etc.

Edit:
I guess a couple people had already touched on this. I didn't read it all. Nevertheless...

Old p-funk  from Dr. Dre is still great, his backing tracks are art.

What it tells me is that there hasn't been any dramatic historical or social upheaval since the 1960s, when a generation that had not experienced the world wars and depression of early 20th century came of age. For young people in the 60s, swing sat on the other side of a stark historical divide. Since then there has been more-or-less steady technological and material progress. My generation's circumstances were not greatly different from my parents', so it was a lot easier for us to be receptive to their music.

Rap goes much further back. In fact, here's an example where the style had already been co-opted by white folks  ;D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9EhGOs-tZE

Note that this anticipates the Beastie Boys by over 40 years!

I don't dislike rap or hip hop, I simply don't get it. I try listening to it objectively but I simply don't hear what I'm supposed to be getting. I think Billy touched on this in the other thread in that modern production styles may be off-putting to many people and I agree, modern mainstream music is far too slick, polished and sterile for my tastes, which may also be why I can't get behind a lot of 80's music because the production from that era makes me cringe, especially the gated reverb snare sound.

I love the 80s, but specifically the early 80s, as that was my biggest musical influence. That said, the ballads generally haven't dated as well as the uptempo songs  for the reason you just mentioned.


At 0:42 he even goes UHHHH like Rick Ross! :lol

I bet people who complain about over-production still love their precious Fleetwood Mac albums. ::)

Having never listened to a Fleetwood Mac album in my life I really wouldn't know, Doc. Here's a pointless smiley in anticipation of when you say something I don't agree with  :whatever

You've lived a better life than most, my friend.

good point. I don't care for the Mac though...

Fleetwood Mac are incredible, and their records are not overproduced at all. In fact, their records are spare in comparison to most stuff of that era. You won't hear strings, backing singers, any of that. Just lots of guitar and background vocal overdubs, and a straight keys/bass/drums backup. Anyone who is into the spare era of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys should be able to get into Tusk immediately. In my Top 5 bands.

No autotune on Fleetwood Mac, that's for sure. I don't even think they used synthesizers, except maybe sparingly here and there.

How could anyone say a song like Never Going Back Again is overproduced?

BTW, Lindsey Buckingham is a big Brian Wilson fan. :D

I..don't like Stevie Nicks' voice, same goes for Lindsey Buckingham (although I like his voice a bit better) although I like some of their songs.

Modern music is better than it's ever been.  There's so much amazing stuff out there and so many different styles to choose from.  If you can't find something you really dig, it's because you gave up looking for it.

Well I hear good music being made now but it's mostly talented groups that haven't really hit big. There's better music in most Nashville bars then anything on the radio the last 30 years. I like the sound of the early fifties to early seventies and feel that's when the music scene was most creative. I don't like electronic music at all.

I am with you to a large degree. Music hasn't felt the same to me since Lennon was murdered, to be honest. I feel it's kinda been all downhill from there.

I do like some electronic music and there really is a lot of interesting stuff out there but there isn't much that is popular that I find appealing. Adele is a great BES singer and that's about it amongst the big acts.

I actually like some of the sounds and atmospheres rap producers are able to create, but the type of sentiment Dr. Voldelabra is expressing come off as more than a little histrionic: "I'm suspicious that it has nothing to do in some cases with a valuation of the sorts of people who most obviously listen to these types of music: poor people, black or white." Please.

Art isn't simply some honorific distinction, to say that something *is* art doesn't mean that you are therefore obliged to like it more than something that *isn't* art. Art is about development and control. I like Brian Wilson because he brought every element of a recording into the service of the total song. Music is an argument, it seeks to logically prove itself, to justify itself. It introduces material and develops that material to a meaningful conclusion. Any given rap song may sound cool, but you shouldn't take it personally if someone judges it be less substantial or artistic than something else.

I really like music from the 60s and 70s, and have admittedly tracked down a lot of stupid hard rock albums from the early 70s just because I wanted something that sounded cool. It's not like I'm trying to say those records are somehow better than other records, quite the contrary, I think they're mostly as stupid and empty as most rap songs are. 

I don't know why but it was around the time of Lennon's murder maybe one or two years later that I felt popular music lost most of its feeling. The general music scene after the early seventies isn't to my taste, but for about 10 more years a lot of established bands made great music. All just my opinion of course.

modern music sucks. totally hate rap and hip-hop. can't stand even one bar of that crap. to each their own. there...i said it.... ;D

As someone who was born in the 80s, I can honestly say I have sourced more enjoyable music from the 60s than any other decade.

I also like a lot of current stuff, though I am not a fan of how compressed music is these days. There's practically no dynamic range in 90% of what you hear in the charts; a sad consequence of the loudness war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war). I think that alone goes a long way to making modern chart releases really hard to listen to; it tires out the ears when you listen to the same constant volume (this is exasperated by the fact that virtually every song that comes out is yet another four chord affair set to a hip hop beat.

However there are some mainstream artists that put out some really cool stuff. I really like Vampire Weekend, Gotye, Bon Iver and The Black Keys to name a handful. Also... we live in an era when more musicians/songwriters are able to record and produce themselves independently than ever before. The internet is an amazing thing when it comes to discovering music. Just go look on Soundcloud for 30 minutes and you're sure to discover some real gems that you never knew were out there.

It's a time of change really in that sense. The fact that there are so many independent songwriters and artists able to put their stuff out there, is really cool. The chart industry is still there for the casual listener, the people who like what they are told to like because their peers like it. But there's now this whole ocean of more niche music out there for the hardcore listener who wants to source out more subtlety. It's there... you just have to look for it.

It really is, which is what makes our age wonderful - the barriers between artist and listener are being torn down, and new artists no longer have to rely on labels for exposure or distribution...

Of course, the same tack means you can do things like click through related videos on youtube and find incredibly rare or obscure soul, doo-wop, rockabilly, classical, psych, etc at your fingertips whereas before you would have had to luck out at record shops or whatever. You can read or hear about something and instantly access it. If you ever fancied listening to Gavin Bryars or The Chocolate Watchband or Lamonte Young, or The Jordinaires or modern hip-hop mixtapes from MCs across the entire globe, you can at a click of a button and with no risk to your bank account. It boggles the mind.

And what's interesting about that is, theoretically, a broader scope of influence is open to every artist with an internet connection, and more interesting music can come out of them - what goes in, comes out! It's really something.

Indeed. It's a marvellous time for music once you wander off the beaten path and into the forest. :)

I agree. His loss and how it happened was just a horrible thing on so many levels.

Lennon's music itself lost its feeling about nine years before he died, his death wasn't significant in a musical sense.

"Walking on Thin Ice" is killer though.

edit: Literally!

What he did right at the end was really good, and what could have been would have probably been pretty special.

I like the version with Peter Green.

How about some love for Outkast?


Bowtie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pXJPqvyp6s

Never has ripping off Prince been so well done.


Bombs Over Baghdad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaFygeknae8

Such great rapping for the first half, and the psychedelic groove on the second.

Outkast was better when they smoked weed and said nigga. Witness: "Player's Ball" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zgb9TSfcNo), "Two Dope Boyz (In A Cadillac)" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY6454QetqM), "Synthesizer" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkivGULndck).

I love outkast

Outkast!

Big Boi's first solo album (second one is a bit iffy) is also amazing. Stacked with immensity. And he's never really dropped a bad verse, has he?

I really want to hear a hardcore-sounding hip-hop album with both hilariously subtle and unsubtle lyrics about Dragonball Z. Like, with Dr. Dre or Freddie Gibbs voices and grimey, hard beats. That would be so funny.

There's so much limp dick sh*t out nowadays. There was a great article (maybe posted on here?) a while back that reviewed the worst bands in the new decade. Fleet Foxes was one of them and the reviewer said, in summary, that they don't know how to write an actual proper song, it's just lazy music that white people like because they're told it's profound and beautiful. That review really hit it for me, I mean I really believe that. I'd rather listen to The Carter IV than anything by the Black Keys or Foster the People. By the way, is "Pumped Up Kicks" really what passes for a lead vocal nowadays? I don't like mumbling. I'm sorry to be abrasive, I just miss the days when a song would pack a punch in 2 minutes and then wrap up. Granted a lot of hip hop tracks are too long too.

I like Fleet Foxes.  :)

Really?  ??? ??? ???  Top 40 Hip hop makes me want to stick bamboo sticks in my ears, doesn't matter if it's Eminem, Lil' Wayne, 50 Cent, the Black Eyed Peas, Puff Daddy, Jay Z, Snoop Dogg, etc. I see the presence in the top 40 of the Black Keys, Foster the People, and fun. as a major coup for "hipster rock". Now if only Neutral Milk Hotel would get back together and have a #1 smash with Two-Headed Boy Part 4!!

I actually do see its merit, and I'm not surprised nor is it totally unrelatable that somebody would prefer Fleet Foxes to Lil Wayne or Foster the People to Eminem. It's just that hipster rock (we'll go with that term) excites me less than some current hip hop. And for the record, I wouldn't put the Black Eyed Peas in the same league as Eminem or Jay Z -- though, somebody out there might! And so it goes; the variables of preference can't be exhausted!  :)

It seems to me that we seem to assign bad intentions to musicians and fans of musicians we don't like. So, for example (and I'm not attacking Manchini, here, just using the review s/he references):


The likes of Jay-Z, since he was referenced in these posts, sell far, far more records than Fleet Foxes (whom I don't much like, btw, so I'm not defending them). So mightn't we say liking Jay-Z is lazier? Maybe because the listeners are sold on his mogul persona (or whatever other characteristic), or even just because they're lazier still and listen without seeking anything beyond what is being given to them on the charts? Conversely, isn't it possible that people like Fleet Foxes because it's just listenable? Can't relaxing music be ok without it being "limp-dick?"

I think cutting musicians and their fans a little slack is in order sometimes. The former are just people doing something many others--many of us, I suspect--wish we could do. Maybe they're pure to their vision and you don't like their vision. Fine. Maybe they're pure to their vision but they haven't got much of it (or talent). Fine. Maybe they're quite good but compromising artistically to make a living. Fine. And as for the former, they're just poor schmucks like us--actually they are us. Just people listening to what they like. These people aren't necessarily dumb, or whiny, or sheep, or thuggish, or hipster, or imitative, or anything else. They are--some of them are all those things, as are some of us--but it just doesn't matter. The world isn't coming to an end every time a new rapper makes a song you don't like, or a new band that reminds you of an old band but not quite as good gets a song strategically placed in an Apple commercial or an ABC network drama (wait, those are the same thing...). You know?

That wasn't a very well formulated point, but it's clear in my head. Please refer any questions or comments to the inside of my head. Thank you.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that enjoying their music is lazy, just that the writing is. I can see how that may have been misunderstood because of my reference to the article claiming that white people like it because they're told it's hip, which I suppose is a remark on the insincerity of music listeners now? I don't know -- I can't say I necessarily agree with that wholeheartedly, and it's a whole discussion on its own, but it did drive the author's point home and I found it a funny bit.


Yes! In fact, there is plenty of relaxing, non-limp dicked music out there. Furthermore, it's okay to enjoy the relaxing stuff that doesn't pack a punch. My perspective is more of disbelief that there isn't more current, non-rap music out there that packs a punch in just a couple of minutes.

And this is a good thing, how?

All you're saying is "I have little ability to see beauty in anything that isn't overwhelmingly beautiful".   So it's not modern musician's problem that you can't look past whatever it is you don't like about modern music.  It's your fault. 

Music is an art, you may disagree wtih it but it's purpose will always be the same, it's a human condition type of thing.  Different people express art differently, some of the music and 'artists' that people on this board profess to love I think are just god awful and vice versa. 

It's not that the music's very different, it's just that we are.  Some people are very specific about what they like, others are more universal, and a kid listening to stuff now will look back on this as a really good era of music.  Even if to you or I it looks like trash. 

I've always said if you can take a popular song and rearrange it in a different style (say, taking an electro pop sing and turning it into an acoustic ballad) and it still sounds commercial, it's a well written song. Well, there's a lot of songs out now that applies to. Make what you want of that...

I do the same thing.  Just play the melody as a piano piece and see if it works.  If it does, it's hard to argue that the song's not well written.  Some of the modern artists it's easier to see their talent than others.  I'm not down with the latest/greatest bands because I'm not hip enough to be current, but someone like Pink for example (more famous a few years ago) strikes me as exceptionally talented. 

"The vagabond who's rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes that you once wore".

But he smells like pee, too. Do I hafta let him in?

This song rules (http://youtu.be/Zf9eU7L-myI), from the excellent 1992 album Daily Operation. Guru and Premo were the sh*t...

As for what Luther said earlier, I don't disagree that hip-hop is mainstream now and has been for at least two decades... but much like rock music, it's been a particular kind of hip-hop: club/party anthems and such for the most part. Now, without a doubt I would listen to top 40 hip-hop over the equivalent rock music since I find most of the latter boring, which I think is far worse than a good club track. (There should be more top 40 pop/rock songs about smoking weed, jeez...) But I think some of the reluctance towards hip-hop some people feel is maybe that, like "Conspiracy", it doesn't relate to white-person experience? Of course, I'm throwing my biases right out there: Lately I've been getting into Native Tongues posse releases, that sorta stuff... though even something like 2Pac's Me Against The World -- phenomenally successful as it was upon its release -- speaks to a black audience, even if white people listen too. (No wonder Eminem doesn't write gritty, realistic portraits of ghetto life and sticks to Gravediggaz-style cartoon violence.) Of course, this isn't an insurmountable barrier since plenty of white people can rap the entirety of "f*** Tha Police" even if they've never been harassed a day in their life, yet I think it takes more sympathy for social positions to connect with that message -- rather than construe it as condoning violence against police officers per se (like when it was initially released) -- than it does to get behind, say, a song about being depressed because you got dumped adorned with harmonies, a singing saw, and strummed guitars or whatever.

Or maybe I'm just talkin' sh*t? I dunno. We need a hip-hip thread since I've been listening to it nearly exclusively these past couple days...

I can honestly say I don't own a single rap album. I like the two or three Public Enemy songs I know, been meaning to get into them more for a while now. Actually listening to Fear of a Black Planet on Spotify right now. I'm only on track 2 but liking what I'm hearing so far. Puts Kanye and Puff Daddy to shame.

The Bomb Squad are awesome, and produced for a lot of excellent politically-oriented hip-hop artists besides Public Enemy too, mostly notably Ice Cube's (formerly of NWA) first two albums, if I'm recalling correctly: AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted (1990) and Death Certificate (1991). They also influenced a lot of other producers obviously, such as Paris.

Gotye, man. It's such a shame he only had one big hit; virtually all his stuff is excellent. He's a true original.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZdq7mDpJSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRC--2qC_Qs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SmGNNdRQjc

I've mentioned him on the board before, but if there's anyone here who hasn't listened to Sufjan Stevens, please do. He's brilliant.

Here's a few really good songs from him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRW2g2l49fk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otx49Ko3fxw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8YKuhDCgA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTc--0sZbrE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59BRCOiQVKI

And something a little different from all the slower stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-L6kmssozY

Not a fan of The Age Of Adz, I take it?  ;D I love that album, it's ridiculous. Like a turbocharged version of the Illinoise songs with batshit arrangements, orchestras, synths....

No, I love it! Vesuvius is my favorite track on it.
Do you dig All Delighted People? I like it a little better than Adz.

I may get hate, but I don't own a single rap song, I just don't like the style. Being attracted to the wonderful harmonies of the BB it's hard to love something that basically amounts to spoken poetry too quickly to understand. With that, most of the poetry revolves around similar themes that don't interest me...

I respect everyone's opinion, but I just can't dig it.

No hate from this side. I can't find fault with an honest and respectful "I just don't like it." That's fair. Many of the refutations I see on the genre are either dismissive ("It's not real music," "there is no talent involved") or borderline racist ("just a bunch of thugs glorifying guns / etc"). Not liking it is not liking it. (I would say that it's not too quick to understand for the people who listen to it. It's just too quick for someone unfamiliar--that's common through the eras. "I got no kick against modern jazz ... unless they try to play it too darn fast.")

Oh goodness, the "dismissive" types. It's perfectly fine to dislike a genre (I myself don't get much out of rap) but there's no need to be snobbish about it. I just can't stand it when I search up a YouTube video for a BB song and the top comment is something like "this is real music - not like the CRAP we get today." Probably just a pet peeve, but that kind of stuff just really gets to me.

Peep this. This was one of the first hip hop records I got into after already having a 6-7 year Beach Boys / Beatles only phase. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qUdqLkj4g


Granted a lot of rap in 2013 is "trap" based, and not too interesting melodically, they are still very energetic records.

I always tell people, The Beach Boys were the first rappers in a way. Making pop songs about girls, cars, bragging, etc....

Jazz, and before that, blues, also has that component (pre-Beach Boys). Not cars, necessarily, but definitely a certain suggestive braggadocio. And I suspect so did every "folk" musical form throughout history, honestly.

(In some cases, blues singers were almost literally rapping. Listen to Robert Johnson doing "Red Hot," especially in the "she got two for a nickel, got four for a dime" part.)

You and me both brother! Can't stand that mentality (and it hits close to home for me, because I actively make "modern" sounding records). Although I'll admit that up until high school I was almost completely shut off to current hits. In my senior year I started to find things in current music that I was able to appreciate. These days I have a great fondness for those records, the oldies, and still stay on top of current hits. Music is VERY interesting these days. Some of these EDM guys are doing amazing things sonically. Now I can listen to anything that's well constructed, in any genre, and be able to at the very least, respect it.


You're absolutely right. Everything comes from somewhere, so to say "1st" would be inaccurate. I kinda knew that, but sorta meant in terms of massive success. Still, you're right. And I'm about to check out that Robert Johnson record. Thanks.

Anyone here listen to Childish Gambino?
Hip-Hop from the heart!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crl1MafE-Bo

It's an amazing song and performance!

Just listened. Love it! Dude was clearly revolutionary. I'm about to dig into his catalogue!

Guys, as cute as it is that y'all think The Beach Boys rapped, they didn't (except "Smart Girls") since they were singers who maybe occasionally happened to rhyme while doing so. That's not enough to say they're "rapping". That they or any number of other rock groups might share some of the same subject matter (http://youtu.be/oOV654cBeV4) as hip-hop shouldn't be surprising.

seltaeb1012002, Common is legit! "I Used To Love H.E.R." (http://youtu.be/TN_wqRJ_F1k) from his first album, Resurrection (1994) is classic.

Here dudes, have some blunted hip-hop: "Thug Waffle" by Flatbush Zombies (http://youtu.be/do9VLONS86Y). You gotta love a group that includes a smoke break in their songs, haha.

Definitely not saying they rapped, but I do feel their early swag might have been the 1st time that kind of "I'm The Man" attitude was made extremely popular in pop music.

And yeah, love that record by Common. Have you heard his new "Cocaine 80's" project with James Fauntleroy? Pretty amazing stuff.

I'll check out Thug Waffle after I'm done engineering this session. Smoke break in the song..haha. That's hilarious.

That may be part of the reason why the BB have a surprisingly large following in the  hip/hop community.

I'm skeptical but would love to be proven wrong: Who in the hip-hop community thinks The Beach Boys are the sh*t? I know Kanye apparently listened to Pet Sounds while he was recording 808s and Heartbreaks but I can't think of anyone else who has ever mentioned them.

edit: I've always though the third verse of "Little Honda" would be cool to see referenced in hip-hop. Mike Love is an OG with mad swag!

Questlove for one.

Also...Tupac Shakur and especially Dr Dre.

Mostly indie hip hop artists, though.
Here's one example

http://oudaily.com/news/2011/mar/09/beach-boys-inspire-local-rappers-new-album/

edit

^ I actually want to hear that album.

I dunno if Gucci Mayne is a BB fan or not, but he recently mentioned them in an interview and referred to them as 'The Silver Surfers... Cause they're old and gray but still pimpin'' 

I think that's a compliment.

One of my elementary school teachers was Questlove's sister.

That has to be a compliment. It is also amazing. Foskett should have said that introducing them to the stage

I gotta say, I listened to some tracks from this group's MySpace page and they were pretty decent, though I don't think any of them were from this album.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Quest's love for Smile! I would not have expected Tupac or Dr. Dre to dig The BBs but I suppose it makes sense as Californians. :lol Are there interviews anywhere that these guys mention The BBs explicitly? And it's completely awesome that Gucci likes them too, they should collaborate and finally release some worthwhile hip-hop~

With Tupac, it was a TV interview when he was first coming out, and he was mentioning how diverse his musical tastes were. It also came out when he was talking about how California produced the best music, which is kind of funny when you realize he was an art school guy from Baltimore!

Dr Dre was being interviewed and was referred to as the 'Phil Spector of rap'. He responded that he 'still has work to do, then' because he'd rather be compared to Brian Wilson :lol  That one was on YouTube but was one of the ones pulled for 'copyright violations'.

Bri-ON will-sun!