The Smiley Smile Message Board

In the thread I recently posted about the IKTAA guitars, I put up a transcription of said guitars.  In looking through my materials, I realized I have done quite a few little transcription projects over the years.  There is that big Beatles book that has complete transcriptions of every Beatles song, and I know that this topic has come up before, but I wonder if there would be any interest in a collaborative attempt to transcribe some Beach Boys songs, in particular Pet Sounds because that seems to have the most potential in terms of people being interested, but also because it has such rich orchestration.

I certainly wouldn't plan on doing this as a commercial venture, as I'm sure there's very little market for it, but would anybody here be interested either in seeing the results, or swapping finale files and trying to hammer out some arrangements?

I imagine something like the Beatles book, with the whole arrangement transcribed in score format, and possibly providing tablature for the guitar and electric bass parts?  It could be an interesting resource, offered as a fair-use educational presentation.

Sound interesting to anybody?

I'd be interested to see the percussion parts, but then again I've never taken an indepth listen to them through out for replicative purposes. But to have them would change that.

I would *love* to have a copy of such a thing, though I'm not good enough at transcription to help much (if at all). Any chance, though, of exporting the finished thing to a more open format than Finale? I use Rosegarden myself, and it would be useful to be able to access the scores through that.

I'm not familiar with Rosegarden.  I could certainly just export the works-in-progress as a regular midi file, at the very least.

That'd be fine for my purposes, and I'd be very grateful.
Rosegarden is roughly the equivalent of Finale for GNU/Linux systems. It's Free Software, but not quite as featureful as Finale. On the plus-side though, it integrates very well with Lilypond, which does the most gorgeous music typesetting of any automated system I've seen.

This sounds like a good idea to me, but I wonder how exactly you'll score the wall of sound parts, it just gets so hard to even tell which instruments are contributing on some of those sections, like the bridge on Here Today.

There will be some difficulties, for sure, but I've listened to the tapes as much as anybody, and I think I've got most of it down.  At worst, I'd have to resort to chord/slash notation for some of the keyboard stuff.  And anything totally conjectural I can give it my best guess and indicate that it's a guess in the score.

Sounds like a great idea. Maybe throw in scores for Today and Summer Days in the same book and you'd probably have a commercial product salable at your local music store.

Once we have the scores who wants to do everyone a solid and do some Liszt-ian virtuoso piano transcriptions of all the songs?

That is an interesting prospect.  I suppose one might as well throw some Smile in there too.  What a lot of work that would be, though. 

To my ears smile would actually be the easiest to transcribe.

I think you're right; transcribing four complete albums was what I thought would be a lot of work.  But Smile can be quite sparse, so it would be a bit easier.

My two cents is that it's a great idea that has yet to be explored, and to those interested, it would fill a major gap. I do feel that the appeal is fairly limited compared to stuff like gear/history kind of things, even when they are technical.

I'd love to help but really I'm not qualified for this one. There are probably quite a few here who are though!

I'm not sure about that -- I know there are a *lot* of musicians on here, and at least some of us aren't at all up on the gear but would like to have a good resource to help figure out the arrangement side of things.

I wish I could help out, but I'm a spectacularly musically illiterate musician, so couldn't be much help translating anything I hear into anything usable.

That said, it'd be a great resource.

Also, IDK if this helps or not, but wrt 'scoring' Smile, Project Smile has a bunch of accurate sounding MIDI files for the main songs.

It'd be a great idea.

And is it completely out of the question that here could be a market for something like this?  One of the greatest pop albums ever, admired in particular for its *out of site* arrangements?  It'd be a great academic resource for students at large as well as people like us.

If any powers-that-be see this, I would be willing to turn the result of this project over to BRI for free in exchange for access to the discrete multi-tracks for the album(s), which would make the scores much better and more accurate.

Do multitracks even really exist past a backing track? Considering the "live" recording style?

Yep.  Every track on Pet Sounds has at least three if not more discrete tracks of backing track and often more for vocals.  Having access to the discrete tracks would be invaluable in the transcription process.  Although it wouldn't be the same as hearing a discrete track from a more recent recording where there's just one instrument on a track, there's plenty to be learned.  For instance, often the horns got their own track, and there's not a lot of bleed or leakage, so I could be more sure of the voicings in the horn chords.  Oftentimes, you can hear a piano a little more clearly, or something.  It would still take some listening, but would help immensely for such a project.

I agree that the discrete tracks are helpful. I've been spending some time lately listening to the backing tracks for I Just Wasn't Made for These Times and Here Today (From SOT Vol. 14 and the Pet Sounds Boxset) and I can tell you that the bass lines in each song have never been transcribed accurately or covered as played on the tapes.  I hope to record these bass lines and upload to YouTube at some point in the near future because I believe they need to be referenced for the benefit of those who want to improve their musical education.

I agree that there are lots of subtleties in the arrangements that nobody has gotten right, even Brian's band.  Particularly bass lines, as you mention.  Here Today is weird because the string bass plays something under the fender during the verses that is really hard to hear but muddies up the waters.

Depending on my academic future, I would love to do a Ph.d at UCLA that would combine complete transcriptions of from the wrecking crew heavy years, and then that would be supplemented by an analysis of the recording process, the culture, the social aspects of that milieu, and a hardcore musicological study.  That might give me more cachet to be able to have access to the multi-tracks, which would truly be essential to the transcription process.  I just wish I had been around a little earlier so, if I do do a phd on this, I could have spoken to more primary sources.  But thank goodness the musical evidence will always be around.

This is a really good idea, don't know how can I help - aside from sending you good vibes. If there's one album that deserves complete scoring of its orchestral arrangements its definitely Pet Sounds.

Honestly, how can I help?

Starting with WIBN, there are a few lingering questions:

1.  With so many instruments playing the bass line, it is difficult to pin down what octave everything is in.

Here are some possibilities.  I'm pretty sure I hear something go up an octave.  It might be the dano bass, but I don't really hear that...

See below for the different possibilities:

(http://s2.postimage.org/hs85basax/Screen_shot_2013_01_28_at_1_11_18_PM.png)

2.  What do we think the little percussion thing is?  A tambourine, a shaker, what?

Shaker I think.

How would we go about this, just do stuff then pass it around for checking / changing etc. Sure would be handy to have the multi's though.  Are you still in touch with Alan?

Sort of, but that is kind of a big ask.

I'd be happy to help, was semi joking about the multis, although  they would make the job easier, particularly having those backing vox isolated.

PM me, I'll do some.

The two 8th notes prominent in the first half of the verses, right? Definitely not a shaker. It's a tambourine (without a head). Listen to the instrument's attack. It has a clear, cleaner "strike" unlike a shaker. The dead giveaway though: listen very carefully in the first verse when it drops out. You can clearly hear the very characteristic sound of the jingles being moved unintentionally as the player comes to a rest.

Apologies if i'm overlooking something obvious and you're actually talking about something else entirely. I would like to add though that a tambourine has probably never sounded better! What a great sound.

Hey, there's a cymbal in the tag, right?  :o

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.  I always have assumed it's a tambourine, but for the fact, as you say, it sounds too good to be a tambourine.  It's so crisp.

I'm really good with guitar parts, so if you need help ask.

aeijtzsche, I know this is your baby, but I've had a great idea.

Why stop at merely transcribing Pet Sounds?

Why not try to re-record the entire album as close as is humanly possible to the original? After hearing your hastily done guitar parts for IKTAA, I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility.

What makes this very exciting, is that we could then have every instrument, every vocal line, every timpani roll on its own discrete track. Save this as a MOGG file, then anyone can load it into audacity or something and discover Pet Souinds on the micro level. What a study aid!

I have very authentic sounding vst's, B3, harpsichords, tack pianos, you name it. There are loads of talented singers, musicians,  engineers and technical historians on this board. We could do this!

Certainly that's a very interesting idea.  I'd be on board, but would probably not take the lead on it.  Also, I'd want to be very certain the transcriptions are correct.  I do have access to timpani...

Well, we could do a test run on our cover album... Maybe do a song like wouldn't it be nice on it and see how it works out?

I haven't listened very closely (nor I have the skills to) to hear if all parts are correct, but I think this guy could help with this project:


http://youtu.be/PK4GCSXZgJg (http://youtu.be/PK4GCSXZgJg)

That is quite an achievement.  But through one minute of listening it's clear it's not a note-for-note cover.  But it could be interesting to hear his multitracks.

So no opinions on the octave split?

I didn't want to respond because the brevity of would have felt weird, but yes, after a few listens I do believe you are right about the octave splits.

So i was just listening to the WIBN session and realized that when Brian is instructing Frankie Capp he refers to the instrument as "the thing" and then he goes on to say "have those things ready," which makes it highly unlikely that it was a tambourine? It seems like one of those instances where Brian is not entirely familiar with the instrument (like the, what was it, tuba (?) in Three Blind Mice).  I can't imagine there being any way that Brian would be speaking of a tambourine that way. I mean, that was probably the single most common percussion instrument used in his and Spector's sessions, you know? I think he'd just call it a tambourine.

So what in the world is it? Could it maybe just be some "exotic" kind of tambourine rather than the sort you'd be able to pick up at any local music shop? Though i suspect Brian would still call it a tambourine if that were the case. I'm so confused because, as i said before, if you listen in the first verse when the instrument first drops out, you can clearly hear tambourine jingles being inadvertently moved, which is a natural thing that occurs when the player brings the instrument to a rest, it's pretty much impossible to avoid.

Anyone here study ethnomusicology or organology who want take a stab at it? I was looking at this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambourine#Similar_instruments but these all have a head, and whatever's in WIBN doesn't sound to me like it has a head. But who knows.

It's a puzzle.  Somebody ask Hal before he goes to the great recording session in the sky.

I drank a cup of tea and listened to Pet Sounds a couple hours ago. Some new, little things I've never heard or figured out before on WIBN:

1. There are two pianos on WIBN playing two different parts. During the bridge, one of them is doubling the 'it's raining, it's pouring' melody on the left hand, right hand is doubling the glockenspiel. Other piano is doubling the accordion and strumming quarter-notes with left-hand, also during the bridge when accordion is absent. Right-hand is doubling the bouncy counter-melody to the 'it's raining it's pouring' guitar.
2. That revy-kinda-sound-guitar (Dano bass? Can't be a bass) from the very beginning of I Get Around is the high-octave instrument playing the bassline.
3. The percussion on left-channel are definitely tambourines, and they're probably being played with drumsticks on top of a high-hat. Or just being doubled by cymbals.
4. Ukelele that was doubling the accordion+piano is strumming fast sixteenth-notes during the coda
5. The 9th (Bb) note on the Dano bassline is an octave higher than the upright bass it's doubling
6. It almost sounds like there's a ukelele playing that bouncy counter-melody line throughout the whole song

Some of this is probably more obvious when hearing the tracking highlights

Another thing I never heard before was the slide guitar on Cabinessence.

woops

Kappa sez, with my responses in color:



1. There are two pianos on WIBN playing two different parts. During the bridge, one of them is doubling the 'it's raining, it's pouring' melody on the left hand, right hand is doubling the glockenspiel. Other piano is doubling the accordion and strumming quarter-notes with left-hand, also during the bridge when accordion is absent. Right-hand is doubling the bouncy counter-melody to the 'it's raining it's pouring' guitar.

Can you be a little more specific?  This is not what I hear at all during the bridge.  I hear both pianos playing chords, the tack pianoemphasizing the "two" beat of every measure, while reinforcing the root of the chord with the left hand.  The grand is just pounding quarter note chords.  This can clearly be heard during some of the takes when they break down


2. That revy-kinda-sound-guitar (Dano bass? Can't be a bass) from the very beginning of I Get Around is the high-octave instrument playing the bassline.

Yes, it's a Dano 6-string

3. The percussion on left-channel are definitely tambourines, and they're probably being played with drumsticks on top of a high-hat. Or just being doubled by cymbals.

I agree that they're probably played with sticks, and probably even by Hal, but I still can't figure out how a tambourine could sound that good.  I guess it's just god's tambourine.

4. Ukelele that was doubling the accordion+piano is strumming fast sixteenth-notes during the coda

There's no ukulele on WIBN.  There is an acoustic, jazz-box type guitar.

5. The 9th (Bb) note on the Dano bassline is an octave higher than the upright bass it's doubling

I think that's right, but don't forget there's a Fender Bass in there too.

6. It almost sounds like there's a ukelele playing that bouncy counter-melody line throughout the whole song

I'm really not sure what you're talking about here.  Elaborate, if you don't mind.


Another thing I never heard before was the slide guitar on Cabinessence.

That's a Dobro played by none other than James Burton.


Thanks for the input--I need it.

Has anybody auditioned different tambourines?

I bet the one on WIBN is something like this:

http://www.chicagomusicexchange.com/drum-shop/percussion/hand-held-percussion/meinl-compact-super-dry-tambourine-brass-black/?gclid=CMyc95qGnrUCFdOHMgodZ2EAaA (http://www.chicagomusicexchange.com/drum-shop/percussion/hand-held-percussion/meinl-compact-super-dry-tambourine-brass-black/?gclid=CMyc95qGnrUCFdOHMgodZ2EAaA)

Very small and dry.  I'm also amazed how tight and dry the Sleigh Bells that they used are.

Definitely sounds like there is a Telecaster (or regular 6-string) doubling the bassline in there to me.

At this point, I think the percussion is probably just a tambourine, a very fine tambourine indeed. MAYBE there's a plate reverb catching it that makes it sound so hi-hat/shaker-like.

That's the Dano.  There's no other possibility unless somebody got paid under the table for it.

fair enough ... pretty twangy, low notes avoided ?

No, it's doubling the bass line at 16' for most of the song, but pops up an octave at the points where it sounds more like a standard guitar.

That's actually exactly what I was describing, except I also hear the 'raining' guitar/mandolin is subtly being doubled by a piano, just like on Summer Means New Love. I wasn't sure if there was a tack piano though. Maybe that means there are three including tack?

Again, because it's being doubled by cymbals. You can hear them at the end of the Highlights track on the Pet Sounds Sessions box. They give the tambourines that kind of wooshy, swingy texture.

No way, what's that sourced from? Is that the same acoustic guitar from IKTAA? They sound nothing alike

You can barely hear something that sounds like a tack piano or ukelele on the right channel being played along the verses. I can only hear the twang of the strings though, not the notes, but it sounds like it's playing the beginning 'raining' counter-riff

kit drums
timpani
'jingle stick' type tambourine ( maybe w/ hi-hat like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjHS2J1PyA )
glockenspiel
string bass
fender bass
dano
grand piano

12-string electric (x2?)
tack piano
accordian (2?)
box guitar
mandolin

horns (3 sax + 1 trumpet)

what am I missing/corrections ?

I've decided we would need actual multi-tracks to begin to understand the reverb situation.

That's dead on except there's no Mandolin, unless we ever get to the bottom of one of the intro 12-strings being some kind of weird heretofore unknown mandolin-like instrument.

There's just the two pianos, the grand and the tack.  If anything, I suppose the left hand of the tack piano could be playing the second guitar figure along with the chords.  I'll have to try that and listen for it.


I respectfully disagree that there are cymbals involved.


There's no acoustic guitar on IKTAA, so I'm not sure how to respond.  The guitar can clearly be heard in between takes, strumming away.


I don't really hear this, but you might be hearing the tacks hitting the strings in the tack piano, which does have a certain texture that's hard to pin down.

so that's the box guitar or 12-string electric then doing the frilly stuff starting around 1:40 ?

wait a sec ... I know the accordions are doing something weird here, but I swear I heard a 'clicky' kind of thing in there, maybe not.

Yeah, that's just the triple bellow shake on the accordions.

Or are you talking about the ritard?  That is the strumming of the box guitar.

So I just did some listening and tried recording it, the results of which I'll post later, but the left hand of the tack piano is definitely not doubling the second guitar in the bridge.  It sounds super cool, but Brian didn't think of it at the time.

the slow section ("you know it seems ...") ... i believe it's just the accordions, but on one of those mp3s there was some kind of artifact that sounded percussive.

Just accordions.

Boy I wish somebody had thought to photograph the WIBN session.

Wasn't that responsibility given to Bruce?

I'm sure there's a box of polaroids sitting in some storage unit somewhere.

Can anyone point me to any other examples of where accordions are used in such a way as to 'sound like tremolo mandolins'* as on the slow 'you know it seems the more we talk...' section of WIBN?  Is it a fairly common accordion playing technique?

*On closer listening, it really is too soft sounding to be mandolins.

YES!!  A BOX of POLAROIDS in Bruce's garage!!  Right next to his stack of unreleased Smile acetates....

If you read the Pet Sounds box set booklet, One of the accordion players on the session discussed that it was pretty much a technique made up on the spot and that it was very tiring to do.


OK, so I've officially reached the point where I start imagining things.  Time to take a break.  I don't know if it's delirium or if it's true, but I've just come to wonder whether what I thought was the sound of tacks is actually the strummed jazz box...

I'm so far at sea I just want to die.

Here's another interesting thought.  If you listen to the session, the clicking that sounds like tacks is not as prominent, but then on the final take, it is, and particularly on the professionally mixed stuff, where Mark has boosted the highs.  I think that's partially what's throwing me off, is the artificial highs which bring out the tack sound more on the box set.  I think it is the tack piano's bass notes.

By artificial, I don't mean bad, just not there originally, by the way.

tack is definitely in there I think ... are you questioning the presence of tack, or trying to figure what some lower notes are?

Yeah, it's there, just trying to figure out exactly what it's playing.  I'm getting close but let's just say I'll be going for a long time without listening to this song after I'm done transcribing it.

Hang in there champ ... if anyone can do it, it's you. I sure as hell couldn't !

This might sound slightly egotistical, but I wish it wasn't the case that if anybody can do it, it's me--I'd love for somebody to come along and be better at it than I am.  But that person doesn't exist.  It's lonely at the top.   ;D

I'm made some quite decent Smile midi tracks about ten years (jesus!) ago. I'll try to dig them out at some point.

This cheeky sh*t used one of them on his blog without my permission:
http://warnakeysbeachboysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/smile-sheet-music.html

I commented on the blog post - apparently my midi files are on the Project Smile thing. From memory I did:

Look
Holiday
Cabinessence
H+V
Dada
CITFOTM
Wind Chimes

I'm going to have a crack at "Don't Talk" soon. You can use that if it's any good.

If you go here:

http://www.reverbnation.com/control_room/artist/2810343/songs (http://www.reverbnation.com/control_room/artist/2810343/songs)

And click "WIBN Experiments," you can hear a couple of run throughs I've done, mainly trying to get the pianos right.  Forgive the hastiness of everything.

Do you have to sign up for a reverb nation account these days to play anything?

You could just use Vocaroo

link doesn't work !

http://www.reverbnation.com/aeijtzsche/song/16134584-wibn-experiements (http://www.reverbnation.com/aeijtzsche/song/16134584-wibn-experiements)

Try that?

Here's my attempt at half of Don't Talk. Let me know if you can hear any mistakes:

EDIT:

Here's the final version:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/u5im81

Might overdub real bass and guitar there at some point.

I don't know what was with the WIBN bridge but I like the added Roxy Music style piano

That's as close to exactly what they're playing on the record as we're going to get.  In terms of substance, but not execution.  I'm no wrecking crew.

That's a fine effort, not much to quibble with.  Do you have a midi file version of it?

So here's the next question for people, now that WIBN is starting to solidify, on That's Not Me, do you think Carl and Al are doubling the basic guitar line throughout?  They're both on the AFM sheet, but it's pretty tight to be doubled, and yet there are times when it does sound a little chorusy.

The 12-string part? I don't think so. The song is kind of 'sloppy' in general for those parts to be that tight. I vote Al on tambourine.

No, not the 12-string.  The 6-string on the basic track.  Ron Swallow was on Tambourine.

Thanks. Yep, I'll upload it now.

Just checking the instrumentation:

Bowed double bass
Organ
Guitar
Fender Bass
Piano
String Quartet (Cello, Viola x2, Violin)
Cymbal
Timpani

Does that sound right?

Here's the midi file:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/j4ij6r

Is it F# or Gb? Does it make a difference?

There's a  Piccolo trumpet in there too I think, on the string break just before the vox come back in. Just one note.

There's no trumpeter on the AFM.

Somewhere I read, and I really thought it was this song, that someone added just one trumpet note. It was touted as an example of how Brian always knew exactly what he wanted soundwise. Anyone remember this?

In the right channel of the stereo backing track, there's certainly a note there which sounds a bit like it - but I think it's strings, seeing as it's on the string overdub too. Either that or mixed nigh on imperceptible. Just weighing in with my cloth ears.

Yes , you're probably right. The only reference I could find to a solo trumpet note was in the Making Of Pet Sounds book from the boxset. It doesn't mention a specific song though. Can't remember where the Don't Talk  reference was from, but at my age you have to expect this.

I've seen conflicting reports that Al sat this session out. As all the PS notes I've read show different musicians, is there a definitive, or close to, list of personnel for this session?

Sorry I'm not helping out as much as I'd like to, only because I can't stand listening to the music without having a cup of tea. I don't think those bass guitars are double-tracked because you don't hear a cacophony of them towards the end of the track when everything falls apart.

Didn't somebody make a wiki recently? All of these notes should be copy pasted on their respective song articles because otherwise it's hard keeping track...

Also, what kind of bass exactly are you using for that IKTAA experiment? I've been looking for one with that particular sound for obvious reasons.

That is my Fender jaguar bass. 

That guitar line always sounded like one guitar to me - its not chorusy enough, if you see what I mean. Either that or Al and Carl could have joined The JB's, if they could play that tight.

I'm inclined to agree, but there are times when it sounds just off enough.  Maybe al joined some lines but not others?

Are you palm-muting the strings? Is that how you get *that* sound? I always thought a Jaguar sounded too grungy.

That's right.  A little light palm muting can save the sound of almost any bass.

Yeah, and there are clearly two guitars on the track - the first chorus and the fade has them playing different things. The stereo backing track buries them in the mix during the second verse somewhat, irritatingly. Do we reckon Carl took those high fills during the chorus, and Al played the low rhythm (just thonking on the root note in the end/chorus), or vice versa?

The session excerpt sounds like one guitar playing the line, and I think the UM shows that the fills were overdubbed - if it's isolated in one channel on those, it's an overdub, I seem to recall, but it's been a while since I listened to them obsessively.

The first instrumental insert has the fills in the right speaker, the second has a second bass and guitar part which doubles the pre-chorus bit, which might explain our wobble, and a double of the fill in the chorus, and the third adds percussion, but the verse guitar seems to be staying the same apart from the aforementioned double.

I think it's one guitar, except doubled on the 'just one girllll' bit?