The Smiley Smile Message Board

Over on Facebook, whoever runs the Wrecking Crew Film page has a daily quiz which gives multiple choice answers to select regarding that day's question. yesterday's question was "what was the first Beach Boys track to feature ALL Wrecking Crew on the session?"

 the choices were...
A) I Get Around
B) Don't Worry Baby
C) God Only Knows

AGD, Mark Linnet and I pointed out that none of those answers are correct. Why Do Fools Fall In Love is probably the right answer. But the Wrecking Crew offspring dude ((Tedesco?) is obviously not interested in the actual truth as today he posted that the correct answer is B) Don't Worry Baby...and used a thin anecdote to back his answer. Mark L. pointed out he's heard the multi-track for Don't Worry Baby and it features ONLY Beach Boys playing on the track. I also pointed out that I've heard the multi-track and it only features Beach Boys on the track. AGD pointed out that the AFM documentation that is on the Wrecking Crew Film website that is used as proof the Crew played on IGA and DWB are both sheets from NON-Beach Boys covers of those songs. Whoa man...this is some serious denial going on over there in Wrecking Crew Film land...
http://www.facebook.com/WreckingCrewFilm

Glad to see the fight for the truth in this matter continues. Props to Jon, AGD, and Mark Linnet.

It's simply CKSyndrome affecting everything Wrecking Crew.
So Sad for Tedesco

@Stebbins, AGD etc.: I already 'liked' all your Facebook comments on the matter.   :-D That stuff is a shame...

Here's for accuracy in "who did what." I'd hate to see either; claiming work that was not performed, or reported inaccurately, and "wreck" (pun intended) the story that is being told.  Having seen it about a year ago, what I took away was the important and largely "anonymous" place that these musicians fit in the history of American music.  

Brian and the Boys are certainly headliners, but alongside an evolution of sound and revolution of styles that took place at warp speed and the shift from the East to the West Coast as the epicenter.  And in the context of the times.

And here's hoping that error correction by some of our "resident experts" will be taken graciously and without hostility.  The story is too important "taken as a whole" for sloppy detailing to get in the way.  Maybe the WC project can bring someone on board whose job it is to verify and authenticate the sessions, without exaggeration and bad feelings.  

AGD told Tedesco two years ago that those AFM sheets he was posting as evidence that the Wrecking Crew replaced the BB's on I Get Around and Dont Worry Baby were not Beach Boys sessions, they were from Challengers, Hollyridge Strings etc... sessions...but no response, no correction. Don't hold your breath.

It is so frustrating. I honestly think it's a lost cause. Too many classic rock drones would be forced to really listen to the music if they accepted that as fact. Nevertheless I applaud the tireless efforts of you all(especially Jon Stebbins) for continuing to fight the good fight.

It would be interesting to know whether other artists are experiencing the same problem with session accuracy.  It might be easier to get through with "similarly situated allies."  ;)

Wouldn't it be cool to get one of the official Facebook pages of the individual Beach Boys in on this?

An original Jardine comment beneath it would torch that quiz for sure.  :smokin

Al Jardine- "I remember recording vocals for that song on a milkcrate."

Thing is the Beach Boys themselves seem to have hazy memories about it all...

Yeah, funny what 50+/- years will do to a memory

I'm curious, is it just the Beach Boys whose information via the contracts and popularly held beliefs of who-played-what is getting mixed up, or are there other bands and fans/historians of those bands who are saying similar things about those artists?

And I mean beyond the decades-old debates about Jimmy Page playing solos on Kinks records and whatnot, with cases similar to these with the BB's.

Well...Brian knows. He could listen to DWB or IGA and instantly tell you if its Carl and Dennis playing on the session. But there's no upside for him to do that...part of the romantic scenario celebrating Brian's genius is that he used the Wrecking Crew on his brilliantly produced tracks because the BB's couldn't cut it as players (and some people still think of the Beach Boys as his vocal group but not his band)...so even a good amount of knowledgable Brian fans automatically  think of the Wrecking Crew when they think about the instruments on the tracks. And if the facts are opposite then you have to talk them backwards towards the truth because they've already swallowed this myth that all the tasty parts on those records are played by studio pros and not the boys. Just today someone was telling me its obviously not Carl playing the solo on I Get Around because it was beyond his ability. It was not only safely within his ability, but that solo is so perfectly Carl that if you know anything about Carl's style and quirks as a guitarist the IGA solo SCREAMS nothing but Carl Wilson!!! Just like that heavy backbeat on Don't Worry Baby screams Dennis. I don't know why this stuff isn't obvious to more people, its as if they can't hear the signature sound that the Beach Boys band produced when they played together...you can definitely hear on parts of Today and Summer Days when it goes away and becomes something slicker and smoother and not them.

The attempt to affirm a near wrecking-crew-only responsibility is what's known as revisionist history. That they were not publicly recognized and given enough popular credit does not justify this attempt to diminish the BB 's actual work.  I recall the keyboard player in the Pet Stories segments on the Pet Sounds live DVD say that "we were the underscore."  Such gracious humility was, I thought, the watchword of the WC in terms of respecting the BB. Perhaps Tedesco is off the reservation. While I would not undermine the the WC did, for heaven's sake, I will always defend the rockin' sound and even the artfully sophisticated sound of the BB as musicians. One short example: HB plays the drums on FFF, and it sounds, in fact, like a virtuoso piece played by a Juilliard-trained musician. Surfing Safari drums are played by a teenage kid who learned to play in his garage in Hawthorne. Tell me why they both work equally well (he says rhetorically).

This issue could be solved with a capital "S" by doing one simple thing:

Let folks hear the Shut Down v.2 missing session tape which has the Don't Worry Baby tracking sessions. They'll hear Dennis, Chuck, Brian, the whole lot of them recording that song in the studio.

And when people hear it with their own ears, it sinks in more and as "proof" would stand up in any court of public opinion, if not court of law if it were ever challenged.

There would be people lining up to buy such a track if that were ever offered.

Personally, short of this ubiquitous box set talk, that is one item which I bet your average fan would pay for as some kind of release separate from the box set.

And it would solve the mystery-controversy about Hal playing or not playing on the track once and for all.

You know, it's such a complicated and twisted history even without adding in the revisionism of Wrecking Crew offspring. And Jon is right that Brian's aura has had the extremely unfortunate effect of eclipsing the clearly first-rate talents of the working band for, oh, about forty years now. A good bit of what was written about Carl, Dennis, Mike and Al was nothing more or less than libelous. Anyone who saw the band play in the 70s knew that all of that was a bunch of tripe, but that myth has persisted, perhaps because the "romance" (excellent choice of words, Jon) of Brian's version of the Icarus myth is so compelling. And, of course, there is some truth in that, too, which just muddles things that much more. Remember director John Ford's dictum ("print the legend") and sigh.

Idea: a full on-line sessions list, building off the research of AGD and others, would be the best way to combat the mixed-up history that the WC site is promulgating. That would be more than a bit of work, but what a great reference base that would be!

Just FYI...there are two drummers on Fun Fun Fun...Hal and Dennis.

A sessions list wouldn't carry near as much weight as the actual tapes from the session floor.

Because, as the researchers would mention too, you cannot take the word of what got listed on the AFM session sheets as the Gospel truth for what happened on any given session. It lists the players who were contracted for that session and the players and staff who would be paid for that session: It doesn't list exactly who played what during the hours the session actually took place.

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

The contracts aren't 100% accurate either.

The funny thing is that 'Don't Worry Baby' doesn't even sound like a Wrecking Crew recording ... why would anyone even want to claim that it's them? It's really more in the BBs 'garage band' style ... super-goofy guitar break, no real drum fills, a couple bass flubs, etc.

You want the truth?  The truth is, who gives a $hit what a Facebook page says?

What about 'The Surfer Moon'?

Thanks Jon.  HB often discusses and lists that, among others as his; I would never have known DW is on there too (if you have published that information somewhere, please forgive my ignorance, which I will have to remedy). I love every time we hear of the BB themselves playing, thus dispelling the myth of their inability.  To answer my own question, these songs work with HB or Dennis (or both) because they are great songs. I never perceive myself to be listening to inferior art on BB songs without hired guns.

I wish the post-66 recordings were as easy to identify. It's obvious what a '64 Carl solo sounds like, but what does a1980 Carl solo sound like, or a 1972 one?

Brian originally cut it as "The Summer Moon" for Bob & Vicki, then used the track for the BB release. The Bob & Sheri version is a completely different  - and earlier - recording.

A lot of people do because facebook apparently runs America these days...

I think yesterday they had a "Help me Rhonda"-question. Didn't even bother to read it but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar was claimed for "Ronda"....

That question was about which BB's single had been re-recorded and reworked by Brian for single release after some radio stations began to play the album version.

GF02 (that's my nickname for you till I'm here long enough to know your real name!): I didn't mean to suggest that the project would be solely a compilation of the session sheets, as I've read enough here in the back threads to know that the "real" info is a combination of that data and careful listening, etc., from a group of dedicated researchers. THAT's the ideal list that I think a sufficient number of BB lovers here would appreciate in an easily accessible web format.

Aside from the value of just having that detailed info readily available to any and all interested, it would serve the purpose of shutting down competing claims from other research groups.

And I do realize that such an effort would be anything but a "snap of the fingers" exercise...much more complicated and time-consuming than a "definitive vocals" list, for obvious reasons. If anyone could possibly do this, however, it's definitely you guys!

It is hard to shut those Wrecking Crew-ista folks down with their claims, because they are already coming from an extremely defensive, "setting the record straight", reclaiming-the-glory position.

Exactly. They resist learning in reverse. Or unlearning forward. When someone believes what they have learned is a revelation, it is extremely hard to convince them that it was a partially inaccurate revelation.

Am I alone in finding it utterly incredible that they saw an AFM with "IGA" on it that didn't have one single recognized Crew member but rather a shitload of orchestral types, but still assumed it was a BB session ?  Or that they didn't notice that five of the six titles on another AFM were songs the band never, ever recorded ? Or that - most dammingly in my eyes - they accepted the AFMs at face value  ?

You'll Never Walk Alone...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx4vME0d1w8

I see you, and raise:       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Tf58Gl0vQ

I could tell that Carl was playing bass on at least one of those sessions, way back in 2000...by listening to the session tape as presented on Unsurpassed Masters!  ;)  When I got the chance to hear the full, unedited session tapes last year, I heard other things that aren't obvious on the edited versions (like Brian playing tambourine at one point).  The key to a solid, unimpeachable credits list is access to all the existing tape, film (when there is some), and the AFM contracts.  Fortunately, for The SMiLE Sessions, I was given access to those!  There will probably always be a few ?s, and some things we will never know, but at least we can solve the question of which songs feature just the BBs, which feature just the WC (on instrumentation), and which feature some of both.

Carol Kaye on this film you speak of.

"I'm always deeply devoted since the 1970s to the cause of studio musicians being recognized for the talent and full scope of their depth in helping to create the 1960s-70s hit records and movie/TV show soundtracks. The Denny Tedesco-Hal Blaine "wrecking" film-doc doesn't tell the real story as he said it would, it's skewered, re-edited. We were never known as the Hal Blaine-invented 1990 self-promo "wrecking crew" term - like Leon Russell, Al Kooper others say, that's pure baloney. The 50-60 of us (out of 400+ hard-working recording musicians) were sometimes called the CLIQUE and most were successful jazz musicians with fine reputations before ever doing studio work."

Source: http://www.carolkaye.com/index.htm

So it seems like these guys aren't really interested in the complete truth.

And Carol REALLY isn't interested in the truth, she's the worst of the lot.

Methinks you left out the best part of the quote: 
>>  Kent Hartman obtained my interview under fraud pretenses. His phony "wrecking" book re-invents history, please don't buy it. My book will be out this year, Carol K .   <<

And after he makes her practically the hero of that book? UGH. I think it would be best for all concerned to start thinking of those people as faceless session musicians again.

YNWA

The crew were great in their time, the lying game played by CK ruins that.

All of them take credit for sessions they weren't on, including Blaine and Campbell (just found out that he is being credited for playing the opening guitar lick of Viva Las Vegas-that's amusing). Carol is just the most obnoxious and prolific.

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I think it was back in the late 80's or early 90's that Tommy Tedesco himself said something like this: "I have people all the time tell me how great I played on a record which I never played on."

If I mangle the exact wording, my apologies. But the sentiment is the same.

I'd say there is a difference between going along with the hype, believing the hype, creating the hype, and trusting the hype in spite of the factual evidence.

For further proof of what a slippery slope all of this can be, I'd like to see someone prove to me who played that baritone guitar solo part on Glen Campbell's "Wichita Lineman", and I'll counter with evidence perhaps just as compelling to suggest it may have been someone else. And we end up right back here.

And again, ignore it if you wish, but I'll say it again: If the cause of proving these things is crucial to telling the correct story and setting the record straight on who-played-what in terms of the Beach Boys, let them hear the actual session tapes. End of story, it would be all over and the truth will have been presented in the form of an audio recording.

Why not do just that and end all of this for good? Motown possibly could have done that too after Alan Slutsky got wrapped up in a legal mess when doing that Jamerson book.

Well, let's see here: Carl and Dennis are gone. Mike sings, Brian gets all the credit anyway. Is Al going to be in charge of making sure the session tapes are released to prove he was playing Rhythm?
 I'm certain everyone in the choir here would love to see the tapes released, but you'll be hard-pressed to find even one BB that cares.

Of course, and that was a bootleg (horrors!!!)  ;D

But I will also use that example of Carl playing the date but not appearing on the contract to suggest that not every musician who played on a given date is listed on the AFM contract for that date, and that opens up a whole can of worms depending on how folks wish to use that fact. Especially those dates where the only evidence of who was there is the AFM sheet from that session. If we didn't have SOT 15, years before the film was known to exist, yet had the sheet, wouldn't most have assumed Carl wasn't playing bass but a Wrecking Crew bassist was? Again, based only on that contract.

I'm saying if there is in fact that kind of multi-sourced "proof" available to set the record straight, why not do it and end all the debates? Because a slew of contracts doesn't tell you what happened in the studio, and the session tape won't identify each and every musician by name unless they're called out or unless they speak on the tape and we can recognize them - like in the case of a Lyle Ritz or Hal who had distinctive voices. Yet if both are made available, the evidence becomes that much stronger.

I definitely didn't mean The Beach Boys when I said "them", in terms of "let them hear the tapes...", I meant them as far as the people claiming it was not the BB's on the session. And those fans/public/interested parties who believe and continue to repeat the incorrect versions of who-played-what.

I agree, the Beach Boys at this point could care less, but if it's an issue being debated and if it's important enough to pursue, then let the people involved hear the tapes. The debate would end right there.

Well if that's going to be the deciding point, then I'm going to start arguing it's not the BBs, SO I CAN HEAR THE TAPES!! 

Good point. It also gives away my end game, my goal in the whole deal, my ulterior motive...which is to hear the tapes.  :-D

 


Wow, No kidding?  Aren't you the sly one....

My New Year's resolution for 2013 was to be more transparent. I can cross that off the list now.  :)

And if someone from the Wrecking Crew or connected to the Wrecking Crew is making claims that aren't correct, it's as simple as having them or the person speaking for them hear the tapes and the story ends there with a thud. That's my point in all seriousness. There is a huge difference between being misinformed and being malicious.

I don't think the silent footage can be regarded as proof. That could be staged for the film. If the actual tapes indicate that Carl played bass, as they seem to do, that leaves less doubt.

I didn't know Hal played on Fun, Fun, Fun - which parts? I thought it was all Dennis.

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The film was not staged, as someone here proved by synching up the session audio to the film and having it be at least a 95% match, which is amazing for totally separate 45 year old audio and film.

And as I dealt with on the Sonny and Cher film research, where it was also suggested that was "staged", the cost of setting up a studio session with everyone and everything would *far outweigh* the benefits of a few minutes of silent film. Maybe they pretended to play something for the cameras after or before the real session, but getting all the people there and microphones set up precisely wasn't for staging a silent film.

If we're at the point where seeing Carl Wilson playing the exact two Fender basses used by the Beach Boys on stage, in a film of a GV session where everything else lines up and the session players are exactly as heard on that session which we can also hear...if that isn't enough "proof", then researchers and research in general is seriously f***ed up as a result.

I'd say seeing a film of the event in question is the ultimate part of the research trifecta: Audio, paper documentation, film/video. In the case of Carl and GV, we have 2 of those 3 suggesting the other one is wrong.

And if the film were staged, why show Carl on bass and not his usual guitar? And why not feature Mike Love playing sax?  ;D

I'd bet the answer is because it wasn't set up to be staged.

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Make sure you're not thinking of Tito Puente's cover version of "Fun Fun Fun", sometimes labeled "Diversión y Alegría y Diversión", they may have mixed up the AFM contracts...

 :lol

ha! I noticed Hal used timbales in place of regular 'rack toms' (or whatever they're called) on lots of '60s rock songs. you can hear em in 'FFF'.

you can see them on his kit in this photo:

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/04/26/arts/CREW-JP-1/CREW-JP-1-articleLarge.jpg)

This may amaze but I side with CK about the Hartman book: the errors in the BB parts are unforgivable, and even I picked up on the problems with the "MacArthur Park" story, so you have to question the veracity of the rest of it. That said, she's still a vindictive, ill-informed liar who claims that she did the work of others even when it has been proven she wasn't even in the same time zone at the time. I am in awe of her musical achievements, just as I'm in awe (for a different reason) of her personality.

 

Very interesting and a great catch, I never noticed that single drum in that oft-seen photo!

The confusing thing is that Hal had probably the biggest drum kit of its day, just massive amounts of toms and everything else depending on the gig. Hal was something of a pioneer in how his toms sounded, because he'd remove the bottom head on them, and also use tuned/pitched "Concert Toms" which don't have bottom heads as his regular toms...drummers and their setups are too damn confusing, but the idea is that Hal doing this led to certain things being sold by drum companies in the 70's and beyond, apparently. So his kit with "Concert Toms", tuned specifically and having no bottom heads, may have been the Timbale sound rather than actual Timbale drums like Tito would play, but I can't say for sure.

Great eye on that photo!

Never knew that Fun x 3 featuerd timbales  :-\

During one of the Fun x 3 instrumental inserts, Brian yells, "Hey Dennis, don't make the PICK-UPS!!! You're not gonna make the rhythm, don't make 'em." 

Where are those instrumental insets to be heard?  Sorry for not knowing. Thanks

It is my understanding that both Hal and Dennis play full kit drums on the "Fun Fun Fun" track, and as Halblaineisgood surmised the prominent fills are Hal. On "I Get Around" Dennis plays the drum kit and Hal plays timbales. Not sure about timbales on Fun Fun Fun...I'm sure C-man would have some insight.

I'm thinking of a new wing for 10452 - a (very) basic exposition of when Brian started using the Crew, and more importantly, on which tracks. My current recollection is that he started using them on his non-BB productions a good few months before the full-on "WDFFIL". Certainly on "Pamela Jean" in late August 1963, and likely on Honeys/Sharon Marie tracks before that. As for BB cuts... I'm thinking "Hawaii" ?

The problem with that is that it isn't a clear cut either/or...as Hal comes in on Hawaii as a percussionist, but the band is still playing, or all the times Ray Pohlman AND Al are both playing basses on a track, or all the times its the Beach Boys playing but Steve Douglas and Jay Migliore are playing saxes along with them etc.. etc... So I guess as to not further the misunderstanding you'd have to be more specific than to just add an asterisk or a symbol that designates the track as having WC participation because, as you know, that participation was often in support of, but not instead of.

Not forgetting "Our Car Club", the track to which features Hal, but which was originally intended for The Honeys as "Rabbit's Foot".

Hm.

Tell ya what - I'll draft it and you can proof it. ;D

Both of the 'toms' he has in this photo are timbales (note the smaller size).

I'm not an expert on drums, but the 'concert' toms as you described would basically make them slightly longer timbales! Using timbales may have just been just an easier way to get a brighter, punchier tom sound.

Jon has a chapter in his FAQ book about that. Would love to see something like that continued. Also C-Man's site would probably be a good place for that.

I was going to say someone should ask Hal about the toms/timbales while he's still around to answer; but then I read( way later than the rest of you, I'm sure) that Hal had to approve all the "wrecking crew" takes before Brian would go with them, and I realized he sounds just like another CK, so why bother

That's about all it is, right? The drummers' terminology gives me a headache, too many similar items and pieces of equipment with different names.  :-D   There is no easy way to pin down any given setup of Hal's, too many variables. Do you hear timbales on Hal's more famous drum grooves and fills? That's what makes that photo stand out, unless I'm not tuned in I hear mostly standard toms on most of Hal's better-known grooves.

Check out Hal's drum set from the 70's, that massive one. Wild. His blue kit from the 60's is in the Musicians' Hall Of Fame, alongside Lyle Ritz's bass and other iconic gear.

Being a drummer: to my ears, it's someone playing the drum-kit on I Get Around while someone else plays brushes on a snare..... or timbale, but it cuts like a snare.... On Fun Fun Fun, I only hear one guy on a drum-kit unless Brian had Hal just do extra fills n such, but it still sounds like one guy, with someone else doing tambourine.

I wonder if the double drums on FFF is Brian imitating what he'd seen at J&D sessions?  Would that work chronologically? 

It is interesting that one of the wrenches is the session credit puzzle is the preponderance of doubled or tripled instruments.  People look at the musicians that were there and make deductions, which don't always play out on tape.  So you see Ray Pohlman, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, and Lyle Ritz at a session and you think, Carol on Fender Bass, Lyle on Upright, and Ray and Bill on guitars.  But then you listen to the tape and discover that one of them is playing a second bass, either Fender or Dano.  Or sometimes Billy Strange ends up playing tambourine.  And as has been mentioned, it was not uncommon for Ray Pohlman and Al to be playing bass on the same track, with Al being unlisted on the AFM, or as an afterthought assumed to play guitar.

That's when tapes are the most valuable.  But even those require active listening.  I'm shocked how bad the research process was for the Pet Sounds credits.  Those tapes were wholly available, and thoroughly excerpted on the box set, and all it would take is one listen to show that the credits on, say, "That's Not Me" are totally inaccurate.  Or to hear that there's no ukulele on I'm Waiting for the Day.

Oh well!

So can someone reiterate which are the exact sections of the 45 edit of GV that Carl is playing bass on? I’ve never seen this sync up of the film footage and the session audio.

So, what's the line-up on "That's Not Me"?

I thought the same about Hawaii, sounds like brushes on timbales.  If sticks were being used it would be a much different sound.

Lineup on That's Not Me:

Basic Track:

Brian on Organ
Carl on Guitar
Dennis on Drums
Ron on Tambourine

Overdubs:

Carl on 12-string guitar
Probably Brian on Dano bass, or maybe Fender
Someone on clicky clack percussion

Then they just overdubbed that same thing again.

Thank you :)

When was the last time Brian used any of the wrecking crew?

The drum intro to "Our Car Club" sounds like low-tuned timbales to me...

I think for Everything I Need -- I know Blaine and Kaye, at least, played on the basic track. That was released in 97, but I think recorded in 96.

I have a *very* vague memory of something from last decade, as well, some iTunes or Best Buy only bonus track thing, but I may well be imagining that. But they're definitely on Everything I Need.

"Everything I Need" is all that springs to mind with me as well. Certainly not on any of the 21st century solo stuff.

I love the demo of that song!

timbales sound kind of like a snare with the snares dropped off.

"Windy" by the Association comes to mind

That's some nice guitar work by Carl.  Is it 12 string? And does it use any effects? It has that twang to it.

I hope those weren't too damaged in the flood. I know some things were lost, not sure exactly what.

I hope a flood like that never happens again.

Yes, it is categorically 12-string.  The effect is the chorusing of the two overdubs.

Well, I should qualify.  The 12-string work is the overdub fill type of stuff.  The basic track sounds to me like it could be Carl's Jag or even a Strat.  No effects on that, although there are a couple of times it does sound a little weird, almost like there ARE two guitars playing.

I've bugged various people for years to ask what happened to the complete session tape for That's Not Me.  The UM tapes do not have the whole session, but the PS Box has the excerpt, so I don't know why the bootleggers didn't have access to it.  That session tape would be a real joy to hear, in toto.

*Koff*Tommy Morgan on "Goin' Home".*Koff*

That's interesting to mention, I hope nothing like Hal's kit or Lyle's bass or any of those other pieces of history were damaged or lost - Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard any status report on that particular building and collection but I'll try to find some info.

I have a friend in Nashville who I called after the flooding, and he said he was lucky that no water at all reached his home or did damage, yet something like a block or so away was underwater. Luck of the draw.

More unlucky were the dozens of musicians who had the majority of their stage and studio gear, not to mention their collections, in various storage or rehearsal spaces - safe places, supposedly - that got destroyed by the water and mud. Those guitars and amps and whatnot are just things, ultimately, but to lose so many classic instruments in one flood was terrible.

I agree with you on IGA - and it's not even a standard drum kit, really, more like the Brian kit where no cymbals were allowed! I always dug that about Brian's productions - the overall lack of washy and splashy cymbals which allowed so much more to cut through in the overall mix.

On IGA, there are brushes playing a steady stream of 16th notes, and if you listen really close the 16th note groove actually falls in and out of time occasionally. I agree with your ears, and I don't immediately hear that as a timbale. I hear it more as a snare or a snare-like sound from a tom or timbale. The drum "kit" is a simple surfer-stomp four beat kick pattern with minimal snare, then the fills. Nothing else. 3 drums in total, basically. I love it - the guitars and bass were the driving rhythmic force.

If you want timbale, listen to Tito Puente or "The Glamorous Life" by Sheila E - Those are timbales the way timbales most often resonate. I didn't get that kind of tight-head resonance from the IGA track. Not to say it wasn't Hal using brushes on timbale, but it's not characteristic enough to peg it down as easily.

The drums on Fun Fun Fun is an even tougher call from the mono mix - I agree that it sounds more like one man playing, and I don't hear timbales at all. If it is Dennis and Hal on separate kits, it sounds like they were playing so close together as to be indistinguishable from one another, until the fills, which I also agree that the more complex ones sound more like Hal's usual bag of fills that he used on other sessions.

The Fun x 3 instrumental inserts reveal that someone (most likely Dennis) was drumming live as the organ solo was being recorded.

... except for that one, of course.  ::)

I'd see the doctor about that cough if I were you - sounds bad.

.

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For the record, I don't think they're timbales (but can't say for sure), as I said listen to Tito Puente records and those are timbales.

I played them back in high school, haven't since, and don't currently own a set.

For my money, drop the snares off a 100 dollar no-name snare drum, do the 16th note thing with brushes, say they're recorded with this limited edition set of Latin Percussion "Tito Puente" signature timbales, and no one would know the difference... ;D

(http://media.fmicdirect.com/lp/images/products/percussion/5550070507_frt_wmd_001.jpg)

This is Hal's actual "Monster" kit, which Ludwig later sold a variation of this as the "Octoplus" in the 70's. It's his basic Ludwig blue sparkle kit with the racks of toms wheeled in. The rack of toms was unique to Hal's kit at the time, was rigged up specifically for him, and was put on rolling stands normally used for studio lights to make them easier to set up in the studios. He had several of these rigs. Thanks to Jon Cohan for this.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4bUjhxmf7EM/SO9ItsCvDTI/AAAAAAAACsc/YSkfK3u1LBs/s1600/Hal%27s+Monster+kit0001.JPG)

The root of this kind of setup was Hal's using timbales for fills and liking the sound/resonance.

I post this to clarify because I'm not saying Hal *did not* use timbales on those sessions mentioned earlier in the thread, obviously timbales of some kind as tom-toms did become part of his signature sound, but rather I'm saying I personally don't hear them on those tracks as being very distinct or easy to pick out as timbales versus a standard drum.

I have a set of '60s Ludwig timbales. they just sound like punchy, bright toms or a slightly lower snare w/ the rattles lowered off. i can hear 'em on 'i get around', 'fun fun fun' and 'here today', among others (I think, but it's tough to know in these dense mixes).

With Brian, I think it was all about the textures. The harpsichord & timbales together give a unique sound, sort of like a driving delicacy.

and what the hell is that weird aggressive clacking thing in 'pet sounds' (the track) during the breakdown? I've been trying figure that one out forever!

Is the guitar possibly run through a Leslie speaker? It reminds me of the kind of guitar sound in the Beatles "Don't Bring Me Down" (Ringo track on white album), and I'm pretty sure that was Leslie speaker.

Please post a specific track time so we know which clacking you're talking about - there's more than one "clack" on that song. :-D  If we're on the same page thinking of the same sound, I always thought it was a bongo drum of some kind, or something with a harder drum skin similar to a bongo played with a stick.

I don't think Hal's kit had that clacker mounted on the rack...or maybe he did... ;D

I don't hear a Leslie on "That's Not Me" guitar part(s), there is no rotary sound fast or slow on that guitar. The echo/delay/chamber effect may be chorusing it a bit.

Brian's best Leslie guitar sound on the album is the lead guitar-through-Leslie on Pet Sounds, the title track. You can hear the thing spinning around in the cabinet before the take on the session tapes, noisy as hell.  :-D

ha, well let's see ... not the drum sticks clicking together throughout, not the tambourine, not the guiro ... most prominent section starts around 1:35 ... it's kind of a sinister, aggressive thing. I'm starting to think it might actually be a muted electric guitar being hit by something!

I always thought those were bongos through quite a lot of reverb/echo..... the idea that it's a palm muted guitar being strummed/hit rhythmically is kinda wild!

Bongos.

Ok, we were hearing the same section - My take: The percussive constant 16th-note based part is a bongo of some kind. The sound you're hearing is one of the lead guitar tracks, going through the Leslie, playing some hard staccato chord jabs or "stabs" as a horn section would call it. All those glorious 1965 studio effects make it sound more than it actually is, but it's the lead guitar hitting and muting a chord.

The whole song is full of echo and various reverb and room sounds...great for that menacing sound. Run, James, run!  :) One of my favorite little subtle production touches on the album is that acoustic guitar strumming chords that you can barely hear but is there hitting some neat voicings in this same breakdown section. One of those parts you feel more than actually hear.

And as much as I am a huge fan of Geoff Emerick and his work which I consider to be among the best recorded music of the 20th century, this title track "Pet Sounds" can be used as a mythbuster of sorts for those folks who credit Emerick with being the first to put instruments other than a Hammond organ through the Leslie speaker on Tomorrow Never Knows - and I see him get credit for that, though not as much in recent years. Not saying Brian/Pet Sounds was the first either, but it was before Revolver.

It's just a few quick and loud chord stabs I think Donny is thinking of, though (I assume...), not the constant percolating sound. For a similar effect, and probably the most famous and infamous of this kind of guitar sound, check out the beginning of Scotty Moore's second solo on Elvis' Hound Dog. It sounds like Scotty took a club or wooden board and whacked his guitar neck before playing the actual notes on that! He basically grabbed a few random frets, slid his fretting hand, and whacked the strings very hard.

That second Hound Dog solo is one of the most joyous moments of pure live energy and almost total musical abandon you'll ever hear on a rock record.  :) 

You're damn right. That moment on Hound Dog is thee beginning of true rock and roll chaos. No Pete Townshend style without that moment, and knowing what a solid fan of Elvis young Jimi Hendrix was, that may have been a major spark for him.

thanks for the info ...

no, i am talking about the bongo-ish part (I was able to identify the guitar stabs previously) ...

i always assumed it was some kind of bongo, but when listening lately it sounds like it could be something else. it's so quacky/clicky to be a bongo ... but maybe the edge is being struck by a stick or something.

Don't Bring Me Down is an ELO song. Are you thinking of Don't Pass Me By? I haven't listened to that in awhile and I can't recall the That's Not Me guitar sound being present in it.

There is no guitar on Don't Pass Me By.

"Don't Let Me Down", B-side of the Get Back single

That's what I thought, but I didn't want to say that, not having heard the song in awhile. rying to recreate the track in my mind the only instruments that really stand out are piano, drums, fiddle.

And Don't Let Me Down is certainly not a Ringo track on the white album! Though that might be what Kitty Kat is referring to. The lead guitar is comparable.

What was being referred to, likely, are the two Leslie's pianos on Don't Pass Me By.

Oh, heck, I don't remember my Beatles song titles too well  :-\. I haven't listened in years. I was just remembering something about Leslie speakers that I read in Beatles' session books, when I used to read those. For some reason, the Beatles haven't held up as well for me as the Beach Boys have.

I just used the Pet Sounds title track as an example of Leslie'd guitar because that was the topic. Remember too that Brian used the guitar through a Leslie for the intro hook of the song "Girl Don't Tell Me", which beat Emerick and the Beatles "Tomorrow Never Knows" by a good margin of time.

Just wanted to add that because there are still those who credit "Tomorrow Never Knows" with coining the studio trick of tapping into a Leslie and running something other than an organ through the speaker. Gold Star for one was doing it previously, and we have Girl Don't Tell Me as the Beach Boys' specific example.

I think it is a bongo-type drum being played with a light stick or Hot Rods, at least to me ears.

Put into context, the variety and odd nature of the percussion on the Pet Sounds album in general is wild, no wonder some sounds can be hard to identify. Empty bottles, empty soda cans, etc. Plus whatever Hal had in his bag of tricks, and whatever the other percussionists brought in.  :)

I wonder if the empty Egg Nog cartons made their way onto the album as percussion instruments...

The UM tape of the overdub make it pretty clear it's bongos.  When I played the song live, I used my very cheap set of bongos with hot rods and it sounds pretty dead on.

Pet Sounds, the track, in general, is pretty interesting, percussion wise.  It was so complicated that they cut the track with everybody playing percussion and overdubbed everything else later.  I wish the UM tape would have presented the entire un-overdubbed percussion track.

For many years it was written in publications that Brian played drums on Surfin' (or at least 'percussion'). Was it really Brian playing the drum sound?

Was it ever confirmed whether he was really playing a garbage can lid with a drumstick or a pencil or was it something else? Just curious.

sure sounds like a garbage can !

i just listened to 'surfin' for the first time in awhile, and never realized before how spliced up it is!

Yeah, I was just listening to the Beach Boys' 1961-62 2-CD compilation called "FIRST WAVE: THE COMPLETE HITE MORGAN SESSIONS". There's definitely some splicing going on there on Surfin'......

Brian used the Leslie effect a good time before "GDTM".  :)

To me that has never sounded like bongos on the breakdown of Pet Sounds and especially not with Hot Rods. It sounds like some sort of log/tongue drum playing all on the same pitched tongue with barely padded mallets.

"She Rides With Me" being an obvious example.  Then "Good Vibrations".

I can't hear it on 'girl don't tell me', maybe Craig meant 'you're so good to me' ?

of course the leslie was used on organ from day 1 ('county fair', 'cuckoo clock', etc.)

anybody ever notice the clavinet through leslie on 'good time' ?

Leslie speaker on a guitar on GDTM?

Yes, it's fairly far up in the mix.

Don't look at me - I can't hear it either!

Well, of course I don't know if hot rods existed then?  And the thing is, it doesn't sound right on really good bongos, only crappy, unadjustable-headed ones.  A tongue drum with mallets is an interesting possibility, but I still feel like I hear some sort of drum head attack.  I guess there's really no way to know for sure.

are we listening to the same song?!? All I hear is a 12-string guitar w/ a touch of reverb, most prominently featured around 1:20 ... maybe it could be through a leslie on a really subtle, slow setting. but certainly not the pronounced fast effect as heard on 'pet sounds' and 'youre so good to me'.

how about a set of car keys taped to a coke bottle hitting a fender jaguar with the mute on !?!

I totally f***ed that up, I meant to say "You're So Good To Me" had the guitar through Leslie. There is absolutely, positively, no Leslie'd guitar on Girl Don't Tell Me.

My bad.

Honest mistake, it's OK.   ;D

Let's not forget, in all of this, that the Wrecking Crew was pretty fucking awesome.  I just found this photo today and by god it makes me want to be in the studio.  Apparently it's a photo Donna Loren posted, from Capitol Studio A.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/38d266e1670f8198f5880d1def45f114af5f7884.jpg)

I was born at the wrong time.

I'm still offering a huge cash reward for anybody who can produce a great heretofore unseen photo of a Beach Boys instrumental session.  Particularly with the Boys on the instruments.

They've gotta be out there. There are countless photos I've seen from NY sessions at Mira Sound ... mostly taken by engineer George Schowerer I think.  They're fascinating but it ain't California !!!

And maybe if we were alive then, it wouldn't be fascinating because it would have been 'normal'.

Who are the three guys on guitars? I recognize Don Randi on the piano.

From L-R, Tedesco, Strange, Pitman on the Danelectro 6-string bass.  De Lory's way over there on the left.

Well, perhaps not, but to me the appeal seems sort of timeless.  There might be some golden age thinking there, but I feel that I would be equally fascinated even if today it were still "normal" to use great analog equipment, to have a bunch of great musicians in a room together playing cool 12-strings and Dano basses, and mixing it all down live.  It's just a great process.

They did dress better though.

I thought that might have been Tedesco, but wasn't sure if that was a goatee or part of something hanging off the stand! And didn't even see DeLory on the left. Thanks, Josh.

I had not seen some of these pictures before until last night:

http://www.wreckingcrewfilm.com/media/

get more recent photos here:  http://www.wreckingcrewfilm.com/photos.html

I'm with you there too. I've gone back & forth on this and spend WAY too much time thinking about it over the years. I think maybe you're right about that (the timeless/quality/style aspect). But I can't help but feel there's a little bit of rose-colored glasses. I often ponder the irony of the digital age being partially responsible for allowing me to acquire all of the analog equipment I have.

But it's true. Things were generally better-made then, there was a market and appreciation for musicianship. And I do believe people were more disciplined and unique. And the clothes were way way better. I get all of my clothing from this thrift store in San Francisco called 'Clothes Contact' that sells stuff for $10 a pound.

I mean, just look at their shoes!

I was listening to 'Today' on a train back home today, and I noticed timbales are very present on 'Please Let Me Wonder' (good example is the fill around 2:25). I think maybe 'In the Back of My Mind' as well, and maybe more !

What's interesting about Please Let Me Wonder and Timbales is that the timbales are actually explicitly mentioned on the AFM sheet.

Maybe they listed them as a separate instrument if they were overdubbed or not part of the drum kit? For union/payment reasons?

If I remember correctly it might have been because Earl Palmer was given a double payment, yeah.

Reviving this topic b/c I'm trying to determine where the famous Coca-Cola can percussion is on the song "Pet Sounds"...could it be the much-discussed bongos through a leslie overdub in the breakdown, which to Josh sound more like tongue drums than bongos, are actually the Coke cans banged together or with sticks? And on the basic track, it's definitely bongos, right? One of them sounds too deep and hollow to be Coke cans there...and, while we're at it, what about the clackety percussion overdub on "That's Not Me"...doesn't sound like the normal temple blocks (way to shallow-sounding)...sounds more like roller skates or horse shoes clip-clopping down a cobblestone road...

I have only hazy memories of what I had for dinner last night.

Hey, since we're partially on the subject of weird PS percussion, I've wondered for decades what the metallic "chik" sound is on the front of and throughout "Caroline No." The one that alternates with the Sparkletts bottle. It kinda sounds like two halves of the top of a metal music stand being clacked together. It's certainly not a tambourine because there are no jingles in the sound.
I will now perform the relevant intro :-)
chik-chik-chik, bubbabubbabubba, chik-chik-chik, bubbabubbabubba, chik-"Where did your long hair go..."
Don't forget to tip your waitress.
Anyone?

I've always thought it was a tambourine being struck with a woodblock (or vice-versa). The tambourine can be held and struck in a certain way as to not rattle. But I'll listen again...

Just listened again through headphones...definitely a tambourine (you can tell by the decay, even though it's rattle-less). Held still in one hand and struck with a woodblock, I'd wager.