The Smiley Smile Message Board

Just getting this onto the main forum...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7nqaz99_ms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwvD_E-s2iE

who is Don Goldberg and where has he been all my life??

Mr. Goldberg state in the video that "Sweet and Bitter" was recorded just after the Sunflower sessions.  AGD's site has a Mike Love session with unknown title for 10/28/70, which would fit this time period.  Could that be it?

He also states that "Out in the Country" is from the Surf's Up / Holland era.  That would be a pretty long era:  4/71 through 12/72!  Since David Sandler seems to be involved in that track, perhaps this could be from the Wilson / Sandler sessions from Feb. through April of '72?  Ricky Fataar & Tandyn Almer are reportedly on there as well, so probably not pre 1972.

Who knows?

 8)

Fascinating stuff!  I'd really like to know more about Don Goldberg and these sessions, as well as hear the other tracks listed on the Out in the Country video.  Hopefully Stephen Desper will chime in with his recollections.

alright!  nothing like a little mystery to start off the new year!

That's undoubtedly Mike on lead on the first track, but the overall feel of the track isn't anything like the 1970/71 era... as for the second one, purely on the aural evidence presented, I'd have to seriously question if the BB had anything to do with it.

Somebody please save these!
I would but I'm away from the  PC until tomorrow and I have the feeling they won’t last long. .

BTW,  this explains why none of the BB remembered about OITC.

But there's a version out there with Al on lead.

Yes,  but, as far I can recall, they were asked who wrote it and none of them had any idea.

I said this on the Youtube thread, I'll say it here again: some of the instruments on both tracks sound way too synthy and electronic than the technology of 1970 would have allowed. An estimated guess would be that these are 1970-1972 demos that have been polished up within the past twenty years (with little regard to authentic sounds!). If you watch the video, it shows pictures of the front and back of an album of his Beach Boys related demos - googling him or the album turns up very little, however.

Hey, at least we have a fresh topic for discussion!

Could it be possible that these tracks have been leaked from the upcoming Made In California box??

I agree with EgoHanger that the instruments were probably overdubbed onto the tracks more recently. I gotta say, neither song is really that great at all. Mike's vocal on "Sweet and Bitter" is super rough too. You can tell that these were probably just rough cuts maybe to just get an idea for this guy's songs. I don't really know what they were intended for though. Maybe Spring? There really wasn't any songs written by outside writers for The Beach Boys until like KTSA or the 1985 album. So this is all a bit weird.

But what I will say is cool is the fact that we knew nothing of these til today. Which gives me hope that the compilers for Made In California found a bunch of interesting stuff that we don't even know about, and which we will be able to listen to in a few months. I'm sure there is a lot of material which we have no idea about that is just waiting to be heard.

1971-1973 Sessions

1. Intro (That's not me?)
2. In The Country (Out In The Country) **** by the bootleggers
3. Sweet & Bitter
4. Fading Love Song
5. Brian (Chatter)
6. Sweet Rhythm
7. In The Country (Track Only)
bonus
8. Coast to Coast

This is pretty exciting!

They aren't good enough to be included in the California box (or any unreleased comp like Endless Harmony or Hawthorne) Plus, why would you include a song without one of the Beach Boys doing the lead vocal? I doubt they'd approve it anyway.

Reminds me a little of the alternate countryish "Back Home" material from 1970....

The picture of him with Brian at the Hollywood Bowl in 2000 looks more like 1988.

If you check that image of Goldberg in the Country video against his YouTube profile picture they are the same person, shirt and hair are the same - plus the YouTube Profile image from the Hollywood Bowl show in 2000 has the poster date - Sunday, September 24.

The 2000 dates looks to be real .... if that's Goldberg .... or the image isn't doctored.

Assuming Goldberg was - say - early 20's at the time of the recordings in the early 70s then does he look old enough (50'ish) in the 2000 photos?

It would be pretty funny if this was an elaborate hoax, but I doubt it.  Whatever the case, Mike's vocal in Sweet and Bitter is amazing! The early 70s is my favorite era for Mike Love vocals.

According to the video, no Beach Boys are singing on "Out in the Country".
Here are the credits:

Brian Wilson - keyboards & bass
Carl Wilson - guitar
Tandyn Almer - piano & string arr.
David Sandler - backing vocals

Words & music  by Brian Wilson and Don Goldberg.

They tried things with other producers/writers, such as Soulful Old Man Sunshine and Seasons In The Sun.

Looks pretty legit to me (the reels and tape boxes shown are period-correct, including Desper's favorite Agfa PER-525 - rarely used in the US - and the Scotch 206) ... doesn't quite SOUND legit though ... as noted, this 'sweet and bitter' has surely been more recently mixed and ... 'improved' for a modern (i.e. '80s) sheen in places ... check out that weird 'in the box' drum fill around 1:50!  (what the hell?!? ... sounds like it was recorded in a different dimension compared to the rest of the drums!). The 2nd track sounds more sonically 'right'. Whoever this Goldberg fellow is, he was given the original multi-track masters and kept them all these years. Just goes to show you what's out there. We're lucky if these Youtube clips last a week. Unless Goldberg has some kind of 'work made for hire' agreement (and the paperwork to back it up). They say possession is 9/10 of the law but distribution is a whole other thing.

The U.S. copyright office has registrations for both songs. The entry for "Out In The Country" lists Brian as a co-writer and says the song was written in 1972 (though it appears it wasn't registered until 2004). The registration for 'Sweet And Bitter' claims it was created in '71 and also mentions 'Fading Love Song' and 'Sweet Rhythm'. The site is not letting me post direct links to the entries, but if you go to http://cocatalog.loc.gov (http://cocatalog.loc.gov) and do a name search for 'Goldberg Don', it will bring up both songs as well as a few others he's copyrighted.

interesting ...

 ;)

Ah, so right-ish. Thanks. :)

Wow nice find Doc Smiley.

Agree with the other posters that parts of Sweet & Bitter sound way to modern for 1970. Although the backing vocals sound very feasibly Sunflower era to me. And that Spectorish marraka or castanet or whatever it is at 0.49 is something they were into at the time, right? San Miguel springs to mind.

Out In The Country sounds completely of its time. Shame the boys apparently aren't singing on that one. I always loved the demo so it's great to hear a more polished version. It reminds me more of a Flame track. I always thought Al wrote it though, no?

Edit: Is anyone able to capture these pronto, as I doubt they'll be up for long?

Got wonder how these things surface like they do, from time to time.

Could it be that Goldberg was approached by box set compilers wanting to hear the sessions, but the sessions were rejected for the box (perhaps for reasons speculated above)…

… so Goldberg, who's perhaps sat on them for decades, realises they'll never otherwise now see the light of day (ie, won't ever make any money) so thinks he might as well get some acknowledgement for them and puts them out there himself?

I like both of these tracks. It's good to hear Mike singing a little differently to his normal style.


What i don't get on here is that it seems like some people will only like certain songs if the BBs had something to do with it. If you like the song, then like it. Don't like it only because the BBs are on it. Nice banjo work. And i'm glad Al remembered it later in the 1970s to have another go at it. Nice tune.

On further listening I think much of the Sweet and Bitter backing track is early 70's sounding, that lead is certainly Mike, but some of the drum rolls sound too slick, maybe more recent additions? The backing vocals from 0.35 onwards definitely sound like Brian is in that part of it and the overall style of these vocals are very Beach Boys.
Out In The Country doesnt sound at all like anything Beach Boys imo, doesnt really have that Back Home 70' feel either and it's too far removed from the demo we all know. It would certainly be odd that they would make it into such an average song when the demo is so enchanting!

I've been listening to In The Country for a while now, and I've noticed some interesting things. Well, interesting to me at least. Listen very carefully to parts of the backing vocals. Am I crazy, or is that part of the coda to Wouldn't It Be Nice? There is also a part where I swear I'm hearing Mike's voice. It's at approximately 1:51 to 1:54 into the song. I keep hearing what I think is either Al or Brian at the very end("livin' out in"...).

Pretty good stuff. Hearing Brian and Mike during that period is always a treat.

I am sure you are right, Brian just looks like 88 Brian to me.

As far as the box I think any unreleased Beach Boys title through 1980 should be considered seriously.

I thought Out in the Country was an Al track?

Search Function is your friend:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6263.0.html

And:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4865.0.html

Ian's quote:  >>
 Re: Out In The Country
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 07:34:11 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to look at it again at home-but I remember that Brian, Carl, and Bruce are all on the AFM as musicians at this session- with Tandyn Almer listed as session leader (BBs seldom listed themselves as session leaders).  << 
Not that much  different from  the YouTube, no?

Which ties him into this BMI listing: 


Songwriter/Composer: GOLDBERG DONALD ALLEN
 
Current Affiliation: BMI CAE/IPI #: 185965808

There are 4 Work Titles
 Work Title    BMI Work #
1. BEACH BOY       3716998
2. NEW YEARS EVE     6616241
3. ROCKIN NEW YEAR S EVE    6601386
4. SURFIN WITH KATO     2058994   


 

This, guys, is one of the reasons I love the Beach Boys, just when you think you've heard it all, something new comes along :)

C-man's post in this thread is pretty interesting:

C-man also mentions that Doug Dillard played the banjo overdubs.  Looks like that version now HAS leaked out, with vocals by Goldberg.  The plot thickens.  This is sounding more & more legit to me.

I have a question: any idea who sings lead on Out In The Country?

If you're referring to the version in the Youtube video that was just posted, Don Goldberg.

duh

Wonder if he's any relation to Barry Goldberg from KGB...

Sometimes it takes a bit for the obvious to slap me in the face: if SWD engineered it, it can't date from later than fall 1971, because that was when he left the BB's employ. Ergo the 1972 date for writing has to be inaccurate.

Yep.  But not "Sweet & Bitter".   And "Out In The Country" has been done by Al, but where is it?

I can think of other bootlegged songs that are more worthy of inclusion on the box....

"Sweet And Bitter" is exactly the kind of thing that would work on the boxset. We don't know how it sounds sands the Goldberg overdubs, but it's a really cool track, not a total throwaway, features a rocking/almost punkish Mike Love vocal....as a Beach Boys fan, why wouldn't it be worthy?

Wow!  Sweet n' Bitter rocks!!  

Damn straight!

OK, upon further listening (about 10 times) I've concluded that maybe I'm wrong. I was wrong twice before, so it could be that I'm wrong here. Not a strong track, but when it comes to the Box set, well, I'd rather see the 1970 version of Back Home or Big Sur or alt. Add Some Music or California Feeling or.......or.......

I guess it's all down to personal preference. But really, the sheer excitement of having something that hasn't been booted, let alone known about in the Beach Boys community, that trumps having something like the alt. Add Some Music or '70 Back Home that fans already have had the opportunity to hear since they've been "out there".

It's OKAAAAAY, but nuthin' to shout about.  Better hurry up and grab this because it's going to be taken down soon, just like the other one with Al back in '08!

Or, perhaps SWD didn't engineer "Out in the Country," even though Mr. Goldberg claims so.  There certainly are some inaccuracies here.

I think Brian may have remembered "Sweet and Bitter"
The Bridge to "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight" shares quite a bit with the bridge in this.
The Chorus has something that reminds me of the "tag" to the "I'm Beggin' You Please" demo.

There's something else in this, especially in the bridge when Mike sings up (for lack of a better term) that is screaming out at me but I can't place what it's from. --EDIT-- It's the chorus to "Sherry She Needs Me", which, of course predates this, if Brian had a hand in writing this he may have recalled the melody, if not, it's probably just coincidence.

wow, how great is Sweet and Bitter, would have fit in with Sunflower no problem..

"Out in the country" is ok, Al would have sounded good on the lead

Al did sound good on the lead.  That's the consensus.

I'm fairly certain Desper engineered it. You can hear the vocal effect ... and the PER-525 tape box is a pretty big clue.

Very interesting to get more glimpses of the BBs trying out different directions...it gives us a better sense of how much work they were really doing at the time, making a concerted effort to figure out a path through the forest of their exile from the American pop charts.

Always good to have more evidence of Mike's talent as a vocalist--whatever else folks may think of him, he is a great singer. While "Sweet and Bitter" sounds like a work track with a not-quite-finished vocal, the ears tell us that Mike knew just what to do with the track and would have been more than capable of bringing it on home as an LP cut.

Wondering if the banjo in "Out in the Country" might have sparked Brian's use of it on "Mess of Help."

No

I contacted Stephen Desper concerning these videos.  He replied that he does not currently have time to comment in depth, as he is working on a a study-video of Breakaway:

COMMENT:  Thanks for the heads up. No time to comment in depth, working on study-video of Breakaway. As I have always pointed out, there are many songs that were produced, but not released -- the ratio is about 1.5 to 1. Nice looking video. Too bad it's in mono.  ~swd

 I hope the Breakaway study video includes the version recorded by "The Parade" produced by Murry and Fred Vail

What other one? I must have missed that.

http://www.nme.com/nme-video/youtube/id/GbEZEGaiXpY

That's only a snippet!  Where's the whole thing?

The outro to Al's lead version of "Out In the Country" seems to have some points of connection with two other released BB songs--very reminiscent of the opening of "Cool Cool Water" (albeit much rougher and far less precise) and it seems to also contain the seeds of the chorus melody (with significantly more gospel energy, to be sure) in "He Come Down."

On Steve Desper's unreleased/released ratio noted in a previous post, a clarifying question, please: does he mean that for every released BB track there are one-and-a-half times more songs still in the vaults than what's released, or does he mean 50% (that is, half as many unreleased songs as currently released songs)?

Fading Love Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34KwL9RFSCI
Just posted so I haven't even heard it yet!

Gruff BW count-in!

Life is for the living! Kind of reminds me of "Won't You Tell Me" style.

Well, that Garry Ulmer was a well-known engineer who owned the M.R.I. Studio where the song was recorded, whatever that's worth...

Fading Love Song ..  decent demo from the era (early 70's) wouldn't have guessed it was BB related without the notes... interesting note in the video (by Brian?) which asks the composer to write them a hit!

"To Don, Write us a hit!" - BW

Looks like he was a songwriter working with Brian trying to come up with hit records for the BB's. Iiinteresting.

So essentially we (will) have half of an unreleased early 70's Beach Boys album.. kinda. With Don Goldberg on vocals.

Yeah, looks like that was happening earlier than I thought. I thought it only began when Brian went solo.

We gotta get this Don Goldberg on the board here. He has some 'splaining to do.

Is the recording of this unreleased version of Breakaway in circulation?  Although Fred Vail initially stated that the name of the group was "The Parade", he later stated that he must have been mistaken and that he could not recall the name of the group. 

http://prayforsurfblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/fred-vail-on-break-away-and-murry.html

All I can tell you is I have someone forwarding a message to Gail; whether she answers is obviously up to her, but from reading her online bios, it seems doubrful that she was in any group that was playing in Colorado.  
I've never heard of the song being in circulation; one has to wonder if Fred has a copy stashed next to his country album.

That's really nice, I like that quite a bit. Kind of a cross between early 70s bubblegum and singer-songwriter. The "strings" during the solo seem to be a recent addition. I don't think that's Brian doing the count-in, though.

Definitely sounds like BW to me. Sounds like a slightly younger, slightly less gruff version of his '76 self. Which would make sense.

Either way, I love that we're goin back and forth about a newly discovered BW-related 1973 recording. Awesome way to kick off '13.

Sounds to  me like this guy is singing over the bootleg instrumental track of "Out in the country".

A lengthy Google search turned up zero hits on this guy. I think he is doing an impression
of Mike on  "Sweet and bitter". And these tunes are an elaborate hoax. Just a wild guess.

I knew the flakes would come out sooner or later

That's what I was thinking a couple of days ago.  I wouldn't be surprised if somebody is having a good laugh over this.

Until Mr. Doe says these are real I'm going to be highly sceptical.

I noticed in comments, another youtube account named DONNY GOLDBERG is thanking DON GOLDBERG for this litttttle slice of rock n' roll history. A huge coincidence, or has it gone all A SCANNER DARKLY? Muahahhaa...

http://www.youtube.com/user/donnygoldberg123/

I'm cracking up over his New Years Eve song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjq1no6TWV8

There's more of a google trail for that spelling of the name:

http://www.musesmuse.com/forums/index.php?showuser=13562&tab=posts

Brian Wilson in the influences there.

Ha! On his Christmas song, there's a comment from "DonGoldberg5". The f***?

Sons? clones? Different aspects of the same schizoid personality that sometimes berates itself in a plausible Mike Love impersonation?

ALL OF THE ABOVE?!?!

Even if it's all real, I'm still gonna giggle at that New Year's song.

Ah, here we go... the Rosetta Stone of this mystery... ladies and gentlemen... I give you...

MENUDO!

Wait, no, The Goldbergs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qllShZp5Yqg

Wow, could that be a Don Goldberg that does a plausible Mike Love impersonation?

But wait! It gets more complicated.

Here's the dad!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdX_GCFZGSU

Ok, what's the deal here... surely somebody on this board knows this family of Dons, Donnies, Donnys, Donnas, and shut-the-f***-up-Donnies that just happen to play in a band named Surf's Up covering Beach Boys songs.

Former collaborator of Brian's who became a grim Beach Boys cult leader (a Murry Manson, if you will) enslaving an entire family to perform their tunes at Disney resorts instead of being able to play outside with the other kids? Or merely a clever hoax by Don "Donny" Goldberg using his quasi-Love nasal stylings and digital sounding softsynths to attract more youtube hits than his loving odes to a holiday we were fine with just having Auld Lang Syne for? A tortured soul, driven to insanity by the faltering economy and an insatiable appetite for Jon Stebbins books that actually started making him think he worked with the Beach Boys? All these things and more?

are you in California? just call him on the phone and see what he has to say

Rampant uninformed speculation is more entertaining. But yeah, his number is up there. Anybody wanna ring him up? Maybe we should get ANOTHER Mike Love impressionist to call him and sound really, really pissed off. Threaten lawsuits.

Sad to say, we might have been had here. His "New Year's Eve" vocals, which would be from many years after the "Out In The Country"/"Fading Love Song" ones, sound virtually identical. If that's him impersonating Mike on "Sweet and Bitter", that's the best Mike Love impersonation I've ever heard! It certainly is interesting, anyway!

Bring on "Brian (chatter)"!

One day, I too will raise a son to sing like Mike Love.

"WRONG! WRONG! Increase nasality by 20%, you little sh*t!"

No idea as to how accurate his claims are, but that's *definitely* Mike singing on Sweet And Bitter. No way it could be anyone else.

Did you check out the videos of Donny singing Mike Love leads?

I'd agree but something is really not right here.

I'm on the fence. But it is entertaining.

Three things bother me. First, Brian playing bass? Did he, could he still do that competently enough for that song. Second, JUST Brian and Ricky Fataar went into the studio together? Just those two Beach Boys? Did Brian even know Ricky? And third, this guy's taking a chance if he is impersonating Mike and advertising it as being Mike. Certainly he must be familiar with Mike's propensity for (cough) litigation....

You guys keep it up; it's nice to have something to laugh about.
I think the tracks are legit, waiting to be proved wrong

The guy is such a huge Beach Boys fan that he has a band named Surf's Up that covers their music, got his whole family to sing their music, has a son who does Mike Love voices, and yet never did anything with these recordings before, talked with anyone online about them, or even mentioned he was a former collaborator of Brian's in chintzy PR videos for his Beach Boys Distant Family and Friends Band? Doesn't add up, now does it. A Beach Boys fan of that intensity you would think would have some crappy geocities page from the dark ages of the net waxing poetic about "that time I worked with Brian." Would be milking his distant connection for all it was worth. Would've been interviewed somewhere. Would have one of the crazy BB fans on here nodding at the mention of his name... would at least trigger an anecdote or two!

Plus, if they did have an outside songwriter... that Brian wanted to "write us a hit" .... with Desper engineering... why the hell would the songwriter get custody of the multitracks? Plus, at that point Desper would be on tour with Zappa, right?

Of course, if someone would vouch for him I could believe it. Anybody? It's hilarious regardless. 2013 is gonna be fun.

Ok, Don/Donnie/Donny. Show yerself! You know he's reading this.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Vr4jyqnpGyA/TgeTnXA2P6I/AAAAAAAAAZg/zdfZBZR2krM/s1600/a%2Bcolumbo%2Bseason%2B3%2Bpeter%2Bfalk%2Bdvd%2Breview%2BPDVD_031.jpg)

I wish Steve Desper was reading this.

Yup!  The vocal is slightly sped up to make it sound a little more like the Lovester.

I imagine if you compare Al's vocal on "Out in the country" to Goldberg's you'll find the lyrics were changed - thus the credit "Wilson/Goldberg".

Anyone have a picture of an early 70s Brian autograph to see if it matches up with the one with the "write us a hit!" inscription as shown in the Fading Love Songs video?

The autograph may be real.  "Hey Brian, I'm a songwriter, here's my tape.  Can I have your autograph?".

Curiouser and curiouser. We need AGD here for his special application of Occam's Razor...

What's odd is that the family band footage gives off no clue that there's any inclination toward the non-mainstream side of the BB's oeuvre.

I don't think the kid (Donny) sounds all that much like Mike in the videos--he's semi in the pocket, but at no point does he get close to the vocal sound that we're hearing on "Sweet and Bitter." I mean, that really does sound like Mike taking a once-through.

However, the timeline seems shaky...was this guy a "prodigy" in 1970-73? That picture of what purports to be a "young Don Goldberg" looks like someone who was maybe 17-21 years old. If it's actually from that time, that would make him close to sixty now. The dad in the videos doesn't look sixty, so those have to be old--maybe about ten years or so.

Nothing like a little surrealism to usher in the New Year, eh, Ontor??

While you're surveying the picture, what is written on the right side at the top?  That's not in any of the copies of the photo I have

sounds a lot like a Chamberlin to me ('3 violins' tape).

I like this one quite a bit. The others are growing on me. I'll buy it !

no it's totally legit.

I promise you guys these tracks are real. There are some obvious modern overdubs here and there, but the basic tracks sound completely legit. People spend years and years trying to get this kind of sound ... you can't just click a plug-in to get it. And that's certainly Mike Love singing on 'Sweet and Bitter'. And Desper's sonic signature is present (listen to the vocals on 'Out in the Country' -- the processing is pure Desper. It's that spatial thing ... grab a good pair of headphones. Listen to 'Tears in the Morning [orig. Sunflower mix] or Mike's vocal on 'Add Some Music', then listen to Golderg's 'Out in the Country'). The 'New Years Eve' thing sounds completely different. Certainly the same guy singing, but the sonic texture is not the same.

This guy somehow got photos of 2 reels of tape that are almost IMPOSSIBLE to find ... 2" reels of Agfa PER 525? Almost no one used this tape in the U.S. except Desper. And it was the type of tape that was used for 'Sunflower', 'Surf's Up', etc. He just happened to come across a couple of these reels, along with personalized BB photos from the period? And a perfect Mike Love impersonator?

BW and Ricky on a session? Sure, it was a demo session for the song. BW and DG needed a drummer ... Ricky was available and the Beach Boys' drummer at the time.

So yeh this guy has a bunch of youtube accounts. He's an older guy. Lots of older people are not that good at using the internet. He creates a Youtube account, then forgets his password or something. Some people add comments, so he creates another account to add notes.

Or ... my guess is that Donny Jr. is behind the thing. If you look at his other videos, he has some '80s tribute band and makes his own recordings. Sounds like he got his dad's tapes and helped him get them together for release. Some of the drum fills on his tribute-band version of 'Take on Me' sounds strikingly similar to that wonky fill in 'Sweet and Bitter'! He has channel named 'Donny Goldberg'. Maybe he set up 'Don Goldberg' for his dad, and the real Don Goldberg used a different account.

So let's say Goldberg was involved with the Beach Boys scene in the early '70s. Eventually moved on to whatever. Came up with a family tribute band later on ('90s/'00s, whatever), just like plenty of the group's fringe musical associates have done. And his son sounds nothing like Mike Love!

And trust me, master tapes were not treated the way people think they were. They get lost all the time. People leave studios with them, etc. These all seem like 'demo' type situations, certainly works in progress, not full master tapes. They obviously didn't end up using this guy's songs, so I don't see any reason why he wouldn't end up with the tapes. It's also possible (though seems unlikely) that DG bankrolled the demos, so he would own the tapes.

and I am SO glad there are those on here that REALLY know their sh*t, and can put that into coherent sentences( something I can't always manage)

It's hard to deny that that's Mike Love on "Sweet & Bitter". I have no doubt that it is. I don't know about "Desper's sonic signature spacial thing" or what kind of recording tape he was using (could it shatter a wine glass upon playback?) or what the name of Brian's after-shave that he was using that day, and I don't have reservations about the pictures/autographs, but I do wonder if the original tape was messed with as far as over-dubbing or other after the fact recording.

I'd like to hear from Steve Desper, although I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't recollect any of this, or maybe even a little bit, or has no copies of it in storage. I know Steve isn't expected to remember EVERYTHING he recorded in the early 70's, but it seems to me if these were important enough Beach Boys/related tracks, he probably would have remembered right off the bat.

And if AGD has anything further after more research of course, I'd defer to him.

As Surfrider says, it's funny you can't find the guy's name on the Internet after a simple Google search. That's kinda suspicious...

The copyright office lists his birth year as 1950, which would make him 21-23 for sessions held between '71 and '73. Totally plausible for an "up and coming songwriter".

"Write us a hit!!!"? Were they really that desperate?

"Sweet and Bitter" sounds like something they probably should've used as a b-side. They'd often use mere album tracks around that time, which I think is kind of pointless when they had lots of good or even very good stuff just lying around.

"Faded Love Songs" is completely run-of-the-mill, to my ears there's nothing outstanding about it.

Is there a circulating version of Out In The Country that I'm not aware of? The only one I've heard is Al singing part of the lyrics over a slow organ "drone". This "new" version considerably faster, although it does have the same melody basically. I'm rather perplexed on how you could think it sounds like this guy has merely added his own vocal "over the bootleg instrumental track".

The Sweet and Bitter track definitely sounds a lot like Mike. I'd say it's probably a 95% probability that it's him. Although it doesn't sound anything like a Sunflower era Beach Boys recording to me. To me it sounds more like an MIU or KTSA era recording.

The facts just don't add up. Take for example that Goldberg credits he and  Brian for "Out in the Country" when Alan Boyd has confirmed it's an Al tune.

 Does sound like Mike gotta admit.

I looked up Donny Goldberg (the younger one) on facebook, and he and I have 2 mutual friends:  Chris Farmer and Phil Bardowell, so there is another Beach Boys connection.

Yeah, that does make sense...and that would mean that a lot of the gig footage for that "Surf's Up!" band is from much further in the past. Donny Goldberg's Facebook page indicates that he graduated from Corona High School in 1989, which means that he's at least pushing forty. The lead singer in those videos is much younger than that.

Buried in the photos on Donny Goldberg's Facebook page is a shot from maybe 4 years ago with Don Sr. in it. It's close-up enough to get a reasonable look at his face. He could be a guy in his late fifties whose combination of good genes and taking care of himself makes him look 10-15 years younger--though in this shot all of 'em look like they're a little "worse from wear" after apparently downing an indeterminate number of brewskis... Therefore, the footage in the Surf's Up band videos would then date from at least ten (and possibly as much as twenty) years ago--plausible in light of the description accompanying the video, which states that it's a "history" of the band taken over the years.

So the timeline does, in fact, seem to mesh with the statements in the "S & B," "Out in the Country" and "Fading Love Song" videos.

We need you, Andrew!!!

Just gave these a listen.  I don't have much to add...kudos to the thread for the thorough dissection.

My only comments: 
1.  If the lead vocal on "Sweet and Bitter" isn't Mike Love, I'll eat my hat.
2.  Brian playing bass in '71 -- unusual, yes, but he certainly could do it if he wanted to.  He was the band's main bass player in '78 and was perfectly competent at it then.  I could see it happening for a demo session if there was no one around to do it and it was quicker than showing the part to Carl.

First 2 couplets of out in the country = ding dang.

Great observation!

Not bad..

Carl would have sounded beautiful on that one

The BW writing on the "Fading Love Song" video sure looks like Brian's cursive circa 1968-70, and the photo is definitely from 1970... but... something still feels just a little bit wrong. My main problem, as noted before, is that if SWD did engineer these tracks (except "FLS", as stated) then they cannot date from past fall 1971, unless they are BW solo projects with the family helping out a bit. Plausible but... I'd like a few firm dates, please: 1971-1973 covers way too much ground.

Al Jardine is fucking audible x 938593859385 in the chorus on "Out In The Country". I don't understand why the validity of this is still debated when it was posted along with what is very obviously an unheard Mike Love lead.

I also hear Al in Out In The Country. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I'm hearing Brian, Al, and possibly Carl in the vocal blend as the song is fading.

Just had a closer look at Brian's message on the photo, and I'm not so sure now. The sig looks like it's been clumsily traced over and there are other inconsistencies. Irrespective of the music, that part of the package doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

On "S&B", there a date on a photo - 3/26/70 - which cannot be accurate as regards the vocal by Mike (and I'm 99% sure it is Mike), as he was hospitalized at the time after his ill-advised fast, or at best had been very recently discharged. Also, assuming they all signed at the same time... why three different ink colors ? Further, the date on the photo conflicts with the "recorded shortly after Sunflower was released" claim by some six months. Small stuff, but I'm assuming this was the biggest thing that ever happened to Don in his musical career, so I'd expect better, more accurate recall and documentation.

Final observation re: "Country" - we have February 1972 dates, which of course were not engineered by SWD, so this must predate the version we've known before. Granted the basic melody is the same, but would the arrangement really deteriorate from a perky sub-country number to the dirge that Alan sings ? Illogical, Captain...

hears an uneducated guess... the dirge that Al is singing may have been Al singing a scratch vocal over what is only a track that was unearthed later (72 as opposed to 71).. the reason that it's lost its perky sub-country feel is that , that part of the song wasn't there anymore, (gone with Mr.Goldberg)

I'm picturing the BB in studio, (perhaps without Brian) going through various tapes looking for usable material and unearthing that track and tinkering with it without the bass/banjo/drum track..

guess/opinion fwiw
cheers
Doc smiley

One quick observation: If you look at the autographs and the 3/26/70 date (0:43 seconds into the video), it looks like the full note says "Don Goldberg, good luck with your songs! The Beach Boys 3/26/70". So perhaps he was not involved with them at this point, later developed a relationship with Brian and got him/the band to help cut a few of his songs. Just a guess.

these 'new' finds are really cool, but that clip with the Al lead is absolutely amazing.
Great thread

What does the inscription "To Don, Brian Wilson Write us a hit!!" on one of the photos mean? It's at :48 of 'Fading Love Song.'Was this guy pitching songs to the Beach Boys? Was Brother Publishing considering signing him as a writer? Or was it just something encouraging to say to a young singer/songwriter.

Well, I don't know for sure, but it looks like Brian had a hand in producing these records (as well as co-writing Out In The Country with Don), so I'd have to guess that Brian really thought highly of the guy's writing and thought there was potential there for the BB's. If u listen to Sydney Calls Brian Wilson 1974, Brian notes how he was having a hard time coming up with the right material for the Beach Boys, but he was trying. I think that supports that Don was just one of possibly many writers Brian was working with to come up with that next hit, or the next direction for the band. I actually like the direction of these songs.. might've been more commercial than "So Tough" + "Holland", but, no doubt those albums contain ultimately edgier material. Holland anyway.

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Yeah, not bad, Dan.  Not sure I care about the droning durge, but it's obviously unfinished, and who knows what it would have become.  Nice vocal by Al there.

Huh huh huh huh.  Smilin' Ed and I were thinking of the same thing but have different opinions on it.  Happy New Year, Ed.  ;D

Quite a few things don't add up. The major one being a scholar like Mr. Doe, who has devoted his life to chronicling the works of the Beach Boys, has never heard October these works or this guy.

But stranger things have happened. Maybe the son or someone else is doing the videos and is getting the facts wrong.

I regard the tag as one of those little Beach Boys exquisities* that make me love them so much! Also, is that "dirge" version too fast? The voice handling the opening lines seems rather squeaky, always has.

* new word ⓒ Wee Helper

I will respect your copyright. ;D

John, I have your "copyright" right here!   ;D

                          ⓒ ⓒ

                     

!

Implied kudos appreciated, but actually it proves nothing: "SOMS" came pretty well out of nowhere, likewise the Wild Honey version of "Surf's Up". It's the inconsistent detail that concerns me more... that and the undeniable fact that there are recent overdubs. I'd like to hear the original recordings.

Listen carefully to the organ on the "Al version" of Out in the Country:  the first few bars have a very similar chord progression to the tag of A Day in the Life of a Tree.

DonnyL: Can you tell if the "Out In The Country" backing vocals were recorded in the 70's?

I'm trying to pick out any BB's in there.. but I think I'm convinced its a wall of Goldbergs. Most of that track sounds pretty vintage though, so I'm wondering if he did the harmonies under Brian's supervision. Brian's voice was also kinda undetectable by that point, so who knows maybe he's in the stack somewhere.

sounds like some vintage BBs in there to me ... but possibly Goldberg more than once as well. I don't think it was a full group session though. If I had to guess I think I hear Al and either Carl or Brian in there ... with maybe two Goldbergs, or other non-Beach Boys.

Based on the opening line, I'm wondering if "Bitter and Sweet" is the same song as "Funky Fever", the track for which (according to the AFM contract), was cut at Bolec Studio in Inglewood on February 28, 1972, by Brian and David Sandler along with a handful of studio players?

Incidentally, the "artist" listed on that AFM, and the ones for "Out In The Country" from earlier that same month, is "BeachBoys"...my point being these were definitely cut with The Boys in mind.

Its not that the songs might have been buried, it's that Goldberg seems unheard of in any BB history. And that Brian would be collaborating with an unknown 21 year old. Just sayin. I'm still skeptical.

Also, he registered 4 cheesy sounding songs with BMI but not the song Mike Love of the Beach Boys recorded. Seems strange.

Al's vocal on "Out in the country" is so beautiful..

Would fit quite nicely on disc six of "Made in California"  ;D

I made a comment the other day about Out In The Country that went overlooked, so I'll mention it again, as I'm curios if anybody else noticed this. Part of the background harmonies seems to be taken right from the coda of Wouldn't It Be Nice. SO much so, that I wonder if it wasn't actually sampled from the original WIBN Pet Sounds recording. Can anybody else hear it?

Like he did with David Sandler ?  Actually... I'll ask David if he remembers this guy.

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Fred Vail, u n00b.  *KOFF*

Exactly! You even know David Sandler.

I believe David Sandler was on Capitol and a couple of other labels as Rumbles Ltd. "Hey, Lenora" was the one I had.

Happy New Year to you too, Mikie! 

OK, had a quick word with David. Interesting. He remembers meeting DG at Brian's house a few times as someone who wanted to work with Brian. However, he wasn't aware of anything that was recorded at the home studio, and thus doesn't recall the tracks in question. Business as usual in the World of Wilson: one question answered, another one thrown up.

The problem I have with this being a hoax, however elaborate, is that it's early 70's era Beach Boys -to be brutally honest- outside of us hardcores, not many people are going to give a monkey's about some newly discovered outtake from that era. If you go to youtube, you can end up wading in Beatles fakes - I think there are about 6 different "Carnival of Light"s. It's not going to gather the attention for it to be a good hoax or trick or whatever, especially two that don't even claim or pretend to have Beach Boys singing lead on them.

That being said, for me, the part that stinks is the recent overdubs, there have been far sloppier outtakes (and official products) released by the band and for the sake of a few drum fills seems needless. The only thing I can think is that in the case of "Sweet and Bitter" especially, maybe a "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" job was done (Compiling a master out of loads of different sources) and what we have is something that bares little resemblance to what the intended outcome was to be when it was recorded.

Or a trick of editing where there is more on the track than actually exists (recent overdubs, copying of recorded parts, etc). No one 40-odd years down the line is going to remember an afternoon spent recording a rough vocal to a rough track which was never completed. For example, the Bridge/Chorus section sounds quite alike on both passes (the double track slipping ever so slightly out of sync on  "It" on "It's meant to be" both times.

Ok, so at least the dude is confirmed to have known Brian during the time period in question.

Yes. So he is the real deal, as is the music. Thanks to Mr. Doe for the investigation!

Huh!  Go figure

Hello ?  David remembers the guy, but not the tracks he's alleged to have played on. DS is a bit like the other David, great memory for events but close to useless when it come to dates.  ;D

Oh so hard to please you are AGD.  Sorry if you thought I meant you were validating the tunes. Obviously you weren't.
Seeing he knew Brian and that you are sure the "Sweet and Bitter" vocal is Mike, I'm tending to think the songs are legit.  
As you've pointed out though, the facts from the videos seem shaky.  I'm just bailing on my hoax theory at this point.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.

[/quote]

 "SOMS" came pretty well out of nowhere,
[/quote]

spent days thinking about it, and now i gotta ask...
what is SOMS?

Soulful
Old
Man
Shunshine

Thanks for going "behind the curtain" for us, Andrew. I'm sure some more information will surface on this; possibly Stephen Desper will remember some isolated detail, or someone will actually be bold enough to track down one or more of the Goldbergs and see if they can sort out some of the information.

Or perhaps they'll give up the "Brian (chatter)" track--which will turn out to be sped up a la the famous portions of "She's Goin' Bald" and will prove to be of absolutely no help whatsoever...
:thud

Ha! I was just going to sleep and the answer came to me. Night night

Bob Burchman is credited for It's About Time.

I don't hear it.

I'm starting to think they may have done this more than most of us would be comfortable with accepting. Probably not, but who knows? "Never Learn Not to Love" is a good example. I also met a guy who worked at a CVS pharmacy in Florida once, and he randomly mentioned that he wrote 'Getcha Back' when we were talking about music. The guy said he knew Carl Wilson and they bought the rights to the song from him. Always thought he was just making $hit up, but who knows!?!

It's probably much easier in terms of publishing to just pay someone for a song rather than setting them up with their own deal.

Yeah, I helped write the expunged interludes to "Hey Little Tomboy" and still haven't received my just desserts!

Bob Burchman is credited and was interviewed many years ago about his involvement. There was a barber's chair involved.

It's also very illegal, and would open the band up to a lot of trouble if the original writer later decided to present evidence (like sealed, dated working tapes) that they'd written the song.

As for your acquaintance having written Getcha Back... Occam's razor applies here. That song is a patchwork, made up entirely of musical references to other songs (I count, off the top of my head, musical ideas from Uptown Girl, Sail On Sailor, Don't Worry Baby, Do It Again and Hungry Heart. There may be others) -- all either nostalgic-sounding then-recent hits or old Beach Boys songs. That's very much Mike Love's style of thinking. Given that it's a song that pretty much *any* quarter-competent songwriter could have written, it seems far more likely that Mike and Terry Melcher wrote it than that they would buy a song like that -- *especially* since Terry Melcher is given credit (why give credit to a non-band-member if he didn't write the song?)

These are great...though I was hoping "Out in the Country" was the 3 Dog Night tune! The BBs could have done a nice job on a cover of that...

It's not really illegal if both parties are in agreement, and the group has most certainly done this at least once ('Never Learn Not to Love').

As for the guy at the drug store ... yes, I most certainly did not (and do not) believe him, just exploring the possibilities.

Not to derail here, but here's part of the interview with Bob Burchman by Jim Robinson. Can't find the rest of it.....and can't find the part about the barber's chair.

I wrote the basic lyric for the song "It's About Time" on July 2nd 1970,when I was 24 years old. I met Dennis Wilson a short time before then, perhaps in May or June of that year,
through one of my closest and dearest friends from Junior High and High School, Barbara Charren, who would soon become Dennis's wife, and mother of two of his children, Michael and Carl. Barbara had met Dennis one night while she was working the cash register at Hamburger Hamlet restaurant in Westwood Village, here in L.A. I was living in Hawaii with my
wife and newborn son at the time when Dennis and Barbara started dating, and so it wasn't until we returned to Los Angeles that I finally got to meet 'the new boyfriend'. I must admit that I was not a huge Beach Boy fan at that time. My musical leanings were more toward Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, Smokey Robinson and The Miracles, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and Joni Mitchell. And I had had the impression from watching early Beach Boy film footage, that Dennis was a bit
too cocky and not the world's greatest drummer. So I was not really expecting to like Dennis all that much, when my wife and I invited Barbara and him over for dinner to meet. But the truth is I liked him. He was quite charming, low key, and very funny. We sat on cushions around a low Japanese style table in our living room eating some sort of asian vegetarian
cuisine, as I remember. At one point in the evening Dennis mentioned to me that Barbara had told him what a good poet and lyricist that I was, and asked me if I would recite something for him to hear. I recited two or three lyrics that I were fresh in my mind, and Dennis was blown away. "Wow! I wasn't expecting that", he said. He went on to tell me that he was working on a track for a new Beach Boy album, and that he wanted me to come down to the studio and write the lyric for this piece. Within a week I was at Brian
Wilson's Bel Air estate/studio to hear the work in progress. Dennis ran off a cassette tape copy for me, making me promise not to let anyone hear it. I took it home with me and listened to the track a few times to get a feel for what the music was saying to me. Then I drove to shady spot in Benedict Canyon here in L.A., parked my car and began writing, as I played and replayed the track over and over on my portable cassette player. The lyric literally took me 20 minutes to complete. It came in a flash. I don't think I've ever written a lyric that quickly since.

The part about how he was more or less pressured to sign off on the song (missing on the post below, understandably as it was from a different interview) contained the bit about the barber's chair in Brian's house.

Evidently there isn't any rest to it. That's all Jim ever posted( if you're referring to this exchange:  http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=24444 )

Here's the full piece: http://www.pipeline-operaglass.moonfruit.com/#/its-about-time/4517958509

Well, yeah, I tried that a bunch of times and the link goes nowhere!  If you can see it, please post it here. It refers to an interview with Bob in 2004.

It is illegal no matter who agrees. Under US copyright law, you can't, as a creator, sell the copyright in a work unless it counts as 'work for hire', which has all sorts of conditions attached to it that the hypothetical situation doesn't match.

Obviously they did do it once, but that was supposedly at Manson's personal request -- and I imagine that could easily have made it very unlikely for them to do it again.

Of course, it's entirely possible, given the less-than-scrupulous way they dealt with songwriting credits, that some acquaintance of the band on occasion might have collaborated with Brian and then found his or her name mysteriously absent from the record label, but I think if they'd actually bought songs from other people on multiple occasions, we would have heard about it.

Picking up from Mikie's post.....


"Actually the lyric itself had nothing to do with the personal lives of Brian or Dennis or any of the Beach Boys for that matter. The inspiration for the lyric came rather as an extension of my own personal spiritual journey, having been exposed to both the vanity of name and fame in the world of Contemporary Art and Rock Music, as well as the ancient eternal wisdom of the East. Biographers have falsely tried to credit Dennis for the message of this lyric, with his or Brian's drug problems and all. But the truth is, it was just a message that Dennis identified with. You might be interested to know how the initial draft of the lyric read, as Dennis first saw it:


I used to be a famous artist
proud as I could be
struggling to express myself
for the whole world to see

I used to blow my mind sky high
searching for the lost elation
little did I know the joy I was to find out
I am my only relation...

Oh I'm a-singin' in my heart
I am a-singin' in my heart
I am a singing in my heart of the Creation!

The Creation....Oh yeah
through which I play the part
of the open hearted laugh of realization...

And now I'm but a child who art
erect in humility
serving out of love everyone I meet
who is really me

Oh I'm a-singin' in my heart
I am a-singin' in my heart
I am a singing in my heart of the Creation!


It was Dennis's idea to hold the phrase "of the Creation" and run it into the next line, "Oh yeah...". The title, "It's About Time", was an after thought by Dennis. I didn't quite understand at the time where he was going with that title."

"I was not invited to the recording session of the song. But I did talk to Dennis by phone that day at the studio, to find out that Al Jardine added another whole other section to the lyric right there in the studio, without anyone advising me or getting my input. I must say that I felt a bit discounted and disrespected with how that went down. One would think that when collaborating on a song with someone, that before bringing in a third writer, that one would tell the original co-writer of his intention before doing so, wouldn't you say? But it was The Beach Boys after all, and I was not about to make waves, pardon the pun!

A few days later I was invited over to Brian's house. I was made to wait twenty minutes or so in a front room where Al Jardine, who completely ignored me, practiced "Sloop John B" on the guitar, six feet away from me. Then after that awkward wait, Dennis came and got me and brought me into the parlor where Brian had this beautiful barber chair. I had never seen anybody use a barber chair as a piece of furniture before. Anyway, all guys were there; Brian, Carl, Al, Mike, Dennis, and Bruce. Now all of a sudden I was the center of their attention. Brian said that he loved my lyric and that he wanted to put the song on their up coming album, as he and others congratulated me and patted me on the back. But he said that first I had to sign some papers so that they would have permission from me to release the song. I was led over to a table upon which sat a legal contract which I was to sign. I remembered someone once told me never to sign a contract without first having a lawyer read it. So looking at this multi-page contract with all these guys breathing down my neck, I said "Shouldn't I have a lawyer look this thing over before signing it?". "NO, NO!" was the united reply. "It's just a standard agreement to let us record your song", Dennis said.

Well, under some intimidating pressure, I signed it. And everyone was happy. It turns out that I signed all my publishing rights away, as well as agreeing to just 25% of the writer's share of royalties. What started out to be a song by just Dennis and me, 50/50, turned into a three way collaboration with Al, 33/33/33, to unwittingly become 25/25/25/25, with Carl Wilson in name only claiming 25%. You must have heard of the school of hard knocks. Well this was my first big lesson."

Thanks, Seltaeb. For some reason when I click that link it goes into the wild blue yonder and never can find anything.

Cool!

No problemo.

Pretty shady move on the BB's part advising him not get a lawyer. No pub, no advance.. yikes. 'Tis the music BUSINESS.

So the part Al (and Carl) must have added was this:

It's about time we get together
To be out front and love one another
Brothers sisters everybody
We better start to help each other now
We need it now
 
When we're sharin' our love brother
That's when we know we can shape another world!

 
They didn't seem to have a problem with Jakobson and Dragon getting credit on Dennis' songs.

Maybe they just wanted to add more lyrics and/or wanted more Beach Boys participation/credit/royalties on the songs.

That's a sad story. Not surprising, but sad nevertheless...

personally, I think that those added words were substantial enough to rate a lyric credit in the song for (Al/Carl)


the other part of the deal, the business part of it is unfortunately common music junk.. I've heard Elvis stories in this regard that makes this deal seem almost honest.

If both parties are in agreement, I'm sure some kind of 'work made for hire' paperwork could materialize fairly easily.

With this logic, most of the 'Lennon/McCartney' credits and publishing rights/royalties are 'illegal'.

Additionally, the 'legality' of these kinds of situations have no bearing on whether or not they happened (it did, at least in one confirmed instance). I'm only speculating that it could have happened at other points in time.

Worth pointing out is the loose manner in which songwriting credits and publishing was handled in the Beach Boys world historically ('Surfin USA', 'CA Girls', etc). And other matters ... for instance, a good chunk of 'Sunflower' seems to have been recorded on Capitol's dime, yet the group assumed ownership and took the stuff to Warners.

Also, label credit is not necessarily accurate with regard to publishing ownership or royalties.

'Surfin USA' showed only 'Chuck Berry' for many years ... yet Berry didn't write the words (and it wasn't a 'work made for hire' either). Yet not really illegal since a written agreement was worked out.

Perhaps we are debating the meaning of the word 'illegal' ... in the strictest sense, you may be correct, but it is not a realistic assessment of copyright law.

What I get from this tale of woe:  The blame for Murry stealing Mike's songwriting credits goes right back to where it belonged all along, Son # 1.
Why alarm sirens weren't screaming in Mike's head , all the while he's joining the rest of the BBs to get this poor schlub to sign his rights away, is what gets me

COMMENT:  What about Soulful Old Man Sunshine?

~swd

Start with post #1 in this thread

Mr. Desper,

In reference to your query, a poster above me couldn't figure out what the abbreviation "SOMS" stood for.

The band did something similar to Gary Usher many years later when he began collaborating with Brian again.

(following post)

the Sean Connery cover version.

Totally agree, and I wouldn't be surprised if Carl added something significant musically too, enough to warrant a co-writing credit. As far as him signing away his publishing rights, well, that's kind of dirty, but on the other hand, the track might never have been released otherwise. So itgoes.

So..... Anyone got any news on this? C-man?  Were they really from the early 70s?

From what I can tell, Carl and Al also contributed to the song musically (the whole bridge sequence seems to come from Al melodically and harmonically, and other sources indicate that Carl may have helped Denny with the chord progression).

And Sweet and Bitter does date from... 71/72-ish?