The Smiley Smile Message Board

You will all have to forgive me if this has been discussed before...but we've all heard about the sequencing struggle over the Surf's Up LP between Dennis and Carl.  Dennis wanted Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again) to follow 'Til I Die to finish off the recording.  If this had happened...was the idea to move Surf's Up in the running order...or would the track simply have not been finished?  If the LP wouldn't have featured Surf's Up...what would they have called it?  Finally, did Dennis pull 4th of July after WIBNTLA was nixed...or was there another reason.  This is an LP that has grown on me over the years...but it definitely is lacking because it does not contain any tracks from Dennis (who was really hitting his stride as a composer). 

I'm afraid I can't answer your questions, but personally I'm not a fan of 4th Of July. The only way it could improve the album would be if it replaced Student Demonstration Time. But it wouldn't improve it much.

Sound Of Free on the other hand ...

The surf's up album is so close to classic, then usual internal wranglings destroyed what couldve been a stronger early 1970's album by dennis removing 4th of July and WIBNTLA. utterly tragic for the band and their legacy. However 4th is out and hopefully WIBNTLA will be out soon, thus I can remove the awefulness of SDT and Feet, reinstate the DW pieces and pretend nothing ever happened.

The addition of the Dennis songs would merely make a great album even greater.

I wouldn't change a thing about the "Brian suite" at the end of surf's up.

I agree; "4th of July" isn't that great, but a Surf's Up side one ending with "Sound of Free" after "Disney Girls" instead of "Student Demonstration Time" would be amazing.  I'm also not a fan of the "Surf's Up" album version because Carl's lead vocal in the first half ruins it for me.  He has a good voice as always, but the emotion sounds forced, particularly by comparison to the versions that have Brian's lead vocal from around 1966/67.  I'd be inclined to guess that an album ending with "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" would be an improvement, but it wouldn't have sold as well, and it's difficult to say what the band would have done without the minor commercial comeback that took place with this album.

You're all utterly mad! 4th of July is one of Dennis' most truely heartbreaking and beautiful compositions and features one of the most sensitive, stunning vocals Carl ever recorded. It would have enormously improved Surf's Up had it been included and it's a travesty that it wasn't.

 :thumbsup Right on.  The thing is, Surf's Up is like what, 33-34 minutes long?  Both 4th of July and WIBNTLA could have easily fit with room to spare.

It's sad because Dennis was really coming on as a songwriter around this time.  I can see Carl's point about Surf's Up.  They were scrambling for anything that might pique interest...and why not pull out Brian's lost classic?  I would disagree with pulling "Feet" off of the LP...it's got a quirky, fun vibe to it.  SDT would go...and probably Looking at Tomorrow.

Good point!

I would add Sound of Free and Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again in place of Student Demonstration Time and Take a Load Off Your Feet respectively

If I could put a block on the word 'suite' on this site, I would.

No offence intended, but it's not a 'suite' it's three songs in a row. Calling it a 'suite' just tacks on some cod classical pretension where there was none.

3 related brian songs in a row is technically a suite.

"4th Of July" wasn't finished at the time. The 1993 GV version is an edit including a rough scratch vocal.

"Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again" wasn't finished at the time. I'm not sure what was missing, somebody else here would know.

Of course Surf's Up could have been a better album with some Dennis songs and minus a few non-Wilson songs (just my opinion) but it's fine as it is and I will continue to play it (along with Sunflower on my 2-fer) for many more years without any apologies to those within hearing range.

I love "Take a Load off Your Feet". Surf's Up sure could've used a Dennis song or two but it's still a fantastic album and I find it kind of interesting that it's probably the only Beach Boys album that doesn't contain one single love song!

Count me in for the 4th Of July love-in, even though Carl's lead is a scratch vocal its still hugely affecting.

"Suite (music), a set of musical pieces considered as one composition"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suite_%28music%29


Nope! ;) Honestly, not getting at anyone in particular, but it does boil my piss a little bit. Clever as some of their songs were, prime era Beach Boys were never pretentious, and calling three songs written by the same guy, at different times, that happen to fall one after the other on an album with songs written by a bunch of people, is pretentious. They don't NEED any additional artistic weight added to them, they stand up on their own without tenuous tags being attached to them.

So I guess any grouping of self-penned songs on an album is a suite. Hey, guys, the A Hard Days's Night album is a suite!!! Who knew? Highway 61 Revisited is a great suite.

(Actually A Hard Day's Night is a rock opera if listened to that way :P)

What about Don't Go Near the Water and Student Demonstration Time?  Those are both Love songs! 

Since there was more room on the LP, could they gone for 4th, WIBNTLA and Sound Of Free at the expense of SDT (which most agree is the lacking track in question). I don't mind Feet either, and if it could stay then fine by me. Lookin' At Tomorrow is perhaps on it's own not a very solid song, but the mood which it contributes to the album must not be overlooked! It fits so well in there!

Don't go near water is redeemed by the excellent production even though the lyrics are cheese and the topic slightly silly.  ;D
Didn't people on this board mostly agree on that a few months ago?

Its a suite in my opinion because the songs are similar thematically and steal the show at the end of album. The rest of the album is great at showing the other members' songs and talents, but the three songs at the end blow me away with showing the mental and spiritual exhaustion of BW. Its almost like his farewell message to the fans before the darkness of the coming years for him.

Were you speaking only of A Day In The Life Of A Tree, I MIGHT be able to see your POV; but lumping in Til I Die and Surf's Up completely loses me.
Neither of the two  is anywhere close to exhaustion , but rather they are uplifting songs in every sense
Methinks  you need to re-evaluate your frame of mind, and, perhaps,  get some therapy before you lose yourself in the abyss

"Til I Die" uplifting? ???, Its a song about a guy saying he is small or nothing in the grand scheme of life until he dies. Its a Logical arguement, but depressing as hell considering the heights scaled and acclaim BW got during the glory years.

I like it, but my daughter on first listen HATED the Carl version. Of course, she first heard it via BWPS. She liked the Brian demo version too; even at four (she's five going on six now) she picked up on the fact it was the same guy only younger.She likes it now, but it is her least favorite version...

My understanding is WIBNTLA WAS finished - Dennis got into an argument with Carl about track sequence and wanting Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again to follow Til I Die.  4th of July was only in rough form, but perhaps if Carl had been more agreeable Dennis would have finished it for the album.  Sound of Free was done and earlier Dennis tracks like Lady and  San Miguel were available, AND Mike's Big Sur (4/4 version, which I prefer to the waltz time Holland cut).

I agree. I don't know why there was so much incuding this and excluding that with some of those albums. You had five or six songwriters in the group. Put 'em all on. Did you ever hear somebody complaining that there were too many songs on an album?

More than any other BB album I can think of, putting those two other Dennis songs on (or some of his other ones i.e. "Lady") would've elevated Surf's Up to classic album status, maybe even solidifying it in everybody's Top 5.

I agree with both those statements. The Carl vocal just doesn't cut it. I think ending the BRIAN SUITE (jk jk!) with WIBNTLA would've been amazing.

However, I still think if the Beach Boys had ended with this album, their legacy would be 1000000x what it is now.

Imagine, the last classic BB album ends with SURF'S UP. I mean, WOW.

Dennis had some pretty amazing stuff completed or in progress that could have gone on that LP.  Was it a case of Dennis just walking away once WIBNTLA was nixed?  I`ve also read (as I am sure we all have) that certain members were jealous of Dennis` growing stature

Didn't Steven Desper say that on all of the rough cuts of Surf's Up he owns, none of them included "WIBNTLA" at any point?

He was planning a solo LP around that time so he was likely stockpiling goodies for his own selfish needs  >:D >:D >:D >:D

I wouldn't change anything. It's the Beach Boys' "White Album".

The joy of BB scholarship: Person A, who was there, says one thing, person B, with equally fine credentials, says something else.

And then there's Carol Kaye.   :old

  I thought Dennis supported Brian in not wanting Surfs Up included on the album and that was how the feud  started between Carl and Dennis.

can anyone explain to me simply (i dont know about sequencing squabling) why Dennis has 3 or 4 songs on Sunflower but zero on Surf's Up?

But, that was the point I was (and others) were trying to make above. Surf's Up is the anti-White Album. It's not a double album, but could've been. It doesn't have representation from all of the band members, but should've. And it didn't adopt a "let's put everything on" philosophy which I wish it would've.

The White Album has been criticized in some circles as having too much fluff, songs that weren't representative of a group the stature of The Beatles, and it should've been whittled down to a single abum. You can't say about Surf's Up. It was whittled down too much. Look at all of the songs The Beach Boys had in tha can at that time. Dennis's stuff alone could've filled an entire side.

As far as I know, Fallin' In Love was the Dennis song actually slated to appear on the album.

Dennis felt that his songs had "saved" the Add Some Music album, which was rejected by Warner's and reconfigured with additional Dennis songs (and Cool Cool Water) as Sunflower.  He wanted more input into the next album's sequencing and where his  songs like WIBNTLA would go.  Carl and Dennis disagreed about WIBNTLA and Dennis decided to withdraw all of his songs from consideration for the album, and instead work on his own songs for a solo album.  That's basically it.

Nice thread  :)

I think I read in another place in this board that 'SDT' was the song most heavily rotated in college radios from that album. Somehow (I dont know why) college kids found the song 'political' and gave the BBs some 'credibility' in that sense.

So even if I think that its utterly stupid to give any 'political', 'social', 'protest' credentials to 'SDT', I have to acknowledge that it played a key role in them re-gaining some market respect.

For that alone, 'SDT' has an undeniable place in 'Surf's Up'.

Now, 'Take a load of your feet'... ??? what were they thinking....

I was still hearing SDT every once in a while on AOR when I was growing up in the late 70's/early 80's. It is one of the songs that convinced me the band could rock, in any conceivable manner. I like Take A Load Off Your Feet as well.

Would "Fallin' In Love" have been the song considered for the album if it had already been released as a solo single?

I don't mind SDT and I like Feet a lot, actually. It's fun.

Regarding the suite thing, it depends on how strict you want to be with meanings. Merriam Webster gives the second meaning of suite (the one that includes musical forms; the first is "retinue") as a sub-meaning under "a group of things forming a unit or constituting a collection." The last three songs on Surf's Up could certainly be considered a group of things forming a unit or constituting a collection. Of course, so could side two of it. Or the whole album. Or any songs on any album.

The sub-meaning that is specific to music, however, definitely excludes those songs from being a suite. "b (1) : a 17th and 18th century instrumental musical form consisting of a series of dances in the same or related keys (2) : a modern instrumental composition in several movements of different character (3) : a long orchestral concert arrangement in suite form of material drawn from a longer work (as a ballet)"

I know the term gets thrown around a lot (especially with Smile or whatever), but it's not being accurately used from the real definition. Frankly I think it is going back to my comment in the Wilson / Mozart thread: people want to use a term from serious music to lend validity to Wilson--which is an unnecessary exercise.

He simply appropriated the term to apply it to how he feels about the 3 songs that end the Surf's Up album. Perfectly valid, I'd say. This wasn't a college thesis, BTW it was a fan on a message board expressing enthusiasm.

But did the Beach Boys basically pile all the Brian onto the end of the album absentmindedly (with Surf's Up always intended as the closer) or because all the active/participating guys wanted their songs earlier in the sequence, or was it because they felt those three Brian songs were something of a piece or flowed nicely back to back?

I guess this is probably a question only Carl or Desper could really answer.

I dunno. If the realization of our tiny lives is a depressing thing then I guess people that go see the Grand Canyon come away depressed.

I do get your point though.

Good point pixletwin about the grand canyon :lol

But what I really mean with depressing is that most stars think they are big and famous, while BW in 1971 was singing about how he was nothing in the universe. A truth, but scary for BW to really take this to heart considering his young age and talents that could have led to more music.

I would pay for your plane tickets to the USA to confront Carol in person. ;D

I think it was because Myke Luhv wanted Brian's fine work banished to the dusty run-off grooves of the record and far from the masterwork that was Student Demonstration Time...


- Pinder Goes To Kokomo:

keeping OSD alive since late 2012!

From The Beach Boys Anthology, 1995:

Carl: It's great, it sold, it's the bloody Beach Boys "Surf's Up", shut up!

I think it would have worked better with 4th of July and Wouldn't have been nice to live again.

Actually, this kind of revisionism gets old, I know,  but I think that there could have been a good double album at that time: a sort of silly or rather light-hearted disc and a heavier, serious disc. A Lot of people think that about Sunflower too, but I would prefer to wait until Surf's Up. Either that or sandwich in an album between 'em.

take away those wailing sirens and de-megaphonise Mike's lead and I would include it over feet for sure!

Wasn't Carl's idea to include "Surf's Up" - dude named Van Dyke Parks had that bright idea.

As for DW's songs 'saving' Sunflower... debatable. Consider:

Add Some Music
Susie Cincinnati
Good Time
Our Sweet Love
Tears In The Morning
When Girls Get Together
Slip On Through
Add Some Music To Your Day
Take A Load Off Your Feet
This Whole World
I Just Got My Pay
At My Window
Fallin' In Love

Sunflower (common tracks in italics)
Slip On Through
This Whole World
Add Some Music To Your Day
Got To Know The Woman
Deirdre
It's About Time
Tears In The Morning
All I Wanna Do
Forever
Our Sweet Love
At My Window
Cool, Cool Water

Dennis's songs didn't "save" Sunflower, but they strengthened it considerably. But, as Andrew's comp shows, the additions of "All I Wanna Do" and "Cool Cool Water" were just as important.

I think andrew's list completely supports the view that Dennis was the most important factor in the reshaping of the rejected Add Some Music into the accepted Sunflower - he added THREE new songs.  Bruce added one, Brian and mike two.  I can definitely see how Dennis may have seen his contributions as making the difference, whether or not we would agree with that as the mini suite Cool Cool Water was also a major addition, and seeing how it was done by request of Lenny , one could argue its' inclusion may have been the crucial "tipping point."

I've said this before here, but it amazes me that a dispute between Carl and Dennis kept Surf's Up from being a classic album. I would say the only time after the breakdown of SMiLE The Beach Boys had a chance to become a contemporary force again was in 1971. Jack Rieley had built them back up in the public eye, and the addition of the song Surf's Up had built a lot of interest - enough to push the album to No. 29 on the chart.

Dennis' songs could have turned a very good album into a truly great one. I've never heard WIBNTLA, but I'll trust those that have and believe it's great. I love 4th of July, and my handle should tell you what I think of Sound of Free.

Adding a couple of Dennis tunes could have truly made the album the full-fledged comeback the group needed, and possibly could have kept Brian interested. And maybe that whole nostalgia thing that Carl and Dennis hated wouldn't have happened.

As an aside, regarding 4th of July, a Carl Wilson scratch vocal is still something most singer could opnly dream of achieving.

But it WAS as big of a full-fledged comeback as the band could possibly have achieved at that point in their career. Two more Dennis songs wouldn't have carried it higher. Four were on the previous record, and that didn't do anything. Forever was a single, it went nowhere.
Surf's Up would have been an even better album with Dennis contributions, no doubt. But it is already a classic, sorely underrated by fans these days, but not at the time, and frankly not until the 90's.

I suppose I'm not being quite so literal.

I agree with Ian. I remember SU having a very good rep at release and SDT was not reviled and TALOYF was accepted as BB goofy.

The more I think about back then, Carl was seen as the hero of SU. Feel Flows and Long Promised Road where the stand outs [maybe Disney Girls to a lesser extent] that got people excited. Dennis was not really on peoples' radar and wouldn't have made any/much difference I think. Anybody else have a different experience/memory of the time?

Don't want to bug anyone, but aren't Dennis songs overrated? Aren't we just desperately trying to find any signs of genius in the band aside from Brian's? As a sort of validation that our musical 'faith' is not in vain?

Carl did really good with 'Feel Flows' and 'Long Promised Road'. But those songs had a larger resonance because of the album they were in. An album that had 'Surf's Up'. But elsewhere ('Sunflower') he failed miserably as did Dennis and the others.

I don't know. It's really hard for me to find non Brian songs that I can really listen to and say 'wow' this is amazing.

Maybe my memory is out of whack but I don't remember SU being the big deal of SU. It was more like a venerated resusitated zombie but FF and LPR were the lively desirable jewels and Carl's modern production was the honored achievement.

I think some of Dennis' songs are overrated but I think songs like  Fallin' in Love, Forever, Ship On Through, Little Bird, Be With Me... are great. He has some songs I don't like as much but the same goes for Brian or any other artist I like. The only song on Sunflower where Carl has a song writing credit is Our Sweet Love so I don't see how he failed miserably. That's one of my favorites on the album. His vocals on that album are fantastic as well.

Carol Kaye has a beard?

Back to the title of this topic, I think Surfs Up is one of the best songs on the LP. As was Cabinessence with 20/20. But to me, they seem out of place. I only think of those songs as being SMiLE songs. At least when I create my own 'Surfs Up', I don't include the title track. Student is a rockin song, but again, I don't include it on the album. Perhaps as a single only the Beatles often did.

But I add in songs like: Sound of Free, Lady, My Solution (or was that recorded too late?), Carnival and Out in the Country.

How about this album:

Don't Go Near the Water       Sound of Free
Long Promised Road              Feel Flows
Disney Girls                            My Solution
Lookin At Tomorrow               A Day in the Life of a Tree
Carnival                                 Out in the Country
Lady                                       Til I Die (Desper mix)
                              

Yeah, I remember growing up in LA, and listening to those Top 500 Songs holiday countdowns on AOR radio, and Feel Flows was usually on there. That and Promised Road were easily the standouts to me when I first heard the album, along with 'Til I Die and Surf's Up (even though I didn't fully "get" the latter of those until I heard it in Smile-context).

Is this purely a memory of the "community" response, or do any of the contemporary reviews back any of this up?  The first one I found online, from Rolling Stone, devotes a quarter of its length to the title track ("dazzling almost to ear-blindness"), notes the absence of Dennis songs in the first paragraph, dismisses "Feet" in one sentence and says the lyrics of "Student Demonstration Time" are "embarrassing".  Carl's songs are praised but not singled out especially.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/surfs-up-19711014

Am I the only one who couldn't live without "TALOYF"? I've always looked at it as a latter day "Vegetables". The goofy, echoing kitchen sink production is really fun, too. I live for the silly organ part that starts at about 1:38, and those fine strings on the coda are just right.

I think "Student Demonstration Time" and "Lookin' at Tomorrow" are the real weak links. Replace those with the best two Dennis songs available and you really do improve the album.

True, but it also says "This is a good album, probably as good as Sunflower, which is terrific, and which I've had six months more to listen to. It is certainly the most original in that it has contributed something purely its own." It should also be noted that the writer was a Beach Boys hardcore fan, whose feelings certainly weren't shared by the mainstream audience, for better or worse.

I took "Surf's Up" off my version (to keep all the Smile stuff together) and I think it works great, starting with "4th Of July" and ending with "'Til I Die".  Now if only I could include WIBNTLA!  I might even be able to get rid of TALOYF and make the album perfect!  Tho to be honest, "Feet" does have a certain "charm" to it and wouldn't "weigh the album down" as much with WIBNTLA picking up the slack with it's (alleged) out and out magnificence.  The album title and cover still works in the same way as So Tough's. 

I seem to remember interview with Carl about the amazing ways he got the sounds of the SU album, his songs in particular. Maybe it was all the dream of an autistic boy about the scene in his snowglobe.

"Feet" kicks ass. I'm not booting anything off of an album for a song I've never heard before based on hype. No song in their canon at the time was going to save these guys from the continued commercial failure, sometimes the world refuses to accept quality (even from a formerly known name) and no one can stay on top forever and ever and ever.

The album wasn't a commercial failure tho, which makes the case for including other material even weaker.

Probably wasn't a failure I guess, but I don't know if I'd call it a significant commercial success.

I dare say you might be hanging out on the wrong board!

You don't think your next album peaking at #29 instead of #151 is significant?

I seem to remember it was in the Nolan 2-parter in Rolling Stone, fall 1971. 2nd part, I do believe.

Actually, as far as being serviced to radio stations, Forever was not a single.  It was released as the B side to Cool, Cool Water, and the promo copies sent to radio stations for airplay had Cool, Cool Water Stereo on one side, and Cool, Cool Water Mono on the other.