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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 06:17:22 PM



Title: Was "When I Grow Up (to Be a Man)" the first rock song to use a harpsichord?
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 06:17:22 PM
I was listening to "Today" several days ago when I began wondering about the harpsichord in "When I Grow Up (to Be a Man)."

The other early rock song I could think of off the top of my head that used a harpsichord was Simon and Garfunkel's "Leaves That Are Green." However, when I just looked at the recording dates for the two songs on Wiki, "When I Grow Up" was recorded and released a full year before "Leaves That Are Green." A search for the topic on google wasn't very helpful, as most people discussing the topic didn't even seem to be aware that those two songs used a harpsichord.

She's Not There (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpS7mpskf18) by The Zombies is often credited as the first "Baroque Rock" song and was recorded a month before WIGU(TBAM), but it doesn't have a harpsichord (not that I'm suggesting WIGU(TBAM) is a "Baroque Rock" song, but if you're looking for a harpsichord in rock music, that's the first place one would look).

Anyone know of any - perhaps obscure - rock songs from the early 60's or even the 50's that used a harpsichord?


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 06:32:51 PM
(not that I'm suggesting WIGU(TBAM) is a "Baroque Rock" song, but if you're looking for a harpsichord in rock music, that's the first place one would look)
Y'know what? Now that I listen to it again, I almost think it *could* be classified as a Baroque Rock song - maybe not quite, but almost there. The opening isn't all that different from parts of "Walk Away Renee," for example, which easily is classified as a Baroque Rock song. If the BB song was a bit slower, it just might fit.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: I. Spaceman on December 16, 2012, 06:43:20 PM
I'm sure there were a few before When I Grow Up, considering how lush certain rock performers in the 50's got when they hit major labels. I can't think of one particular example, tho. I have always thought Brian got turned on to harpsichord because it was used prominently in Rosemary Clooney records of the 50's, and we all know what a big fan he is of her stuff.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: rn57 on December 16, 2012, 08:19:43 PM
Jan Berry was definitely using a harpsichord in the studio before WIGUTBAM was recorded. But I'm not sure what's the first Jan & Dean record to have one. No doubt one of the board's several J&D experts will say.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 08:39:53 PM
^
Thanks. According to this (http://www.jananddean-janberry.com/main/index.php/features/jan-berry-101-a-study-in-composition-with-bach-old-ladies-and-bats), the song, "The Anaheim, Azusa, & Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review And Timing Association," featured a harpsichord. But listening to it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5IzD4HrHhM), it's a bit hard to hear (busy arrangement). The link says the harpsichord was added to the song on August 11, 1964. According to the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_I_Grow_Up_(to_Be_a_Man)) on WIGU, that was recorded on August 5th and 10th, 1964. So unless there's an earlier Jan & Dean song with a harpsichord, Brian beat them by one day!


Title: Re: Was
Post by: rn57 on December 16, 2012, 08:48:33 PM
^
Thanks. According to this (http://www.jananddean-janberry.com/main/index.php/features/jan-berry-101-a-study-in-composition-with-bach-old-ladies-and-bats), the song, "The Anaheim, Azusa, & Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review And Timing Association," featured a harpsichord. But listening to it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5IzD4HrHhM), it's a bit hard to hear (busy arrangement). The link says the harpsichord was added to the song on August 11, 1964. According to the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_I_Grow_Up_(to_Be_a_Man)) on WIGU, that was recorded on August 5th and 10th, 1964. So unless there's an earlier Jan & Dean song with a harpsichord, Brian beat them by one day!

Of course AA&C came to mind right away - but I thought Jan had used a harpsichord before that.  But if Brian really did beat J&D to it by 24 hours, that sure illustrates how J&D could sometimes be the Avis to the BBs' Hertz.  (Those of you under the age of 40 reading this may need to check Wikipedia about that reference.)


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 09:35:36 PM
They also beat the Yardbirds For Your Love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Your_Love) by 4 months.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: rogerlancelot on December 16, 2012, 09:42:18 PM
There is the song "I Sure Would Be Happy" by Cole Minor which features harpsichord. That was either recorded on August 28th, 1963 or I just completely made it up off the top of my head for no reason whatsoever.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 09:46:06 PM
^
Either that's so obscure it doesn't show up on google, or you *did* make it up off the top of your head! :D


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: rogerlancelot on December 16, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Sorry about that. It is hard to believe that WIGU is the first rock song to use harpsichord. Amazing!


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 16, 2012, 09:55:46 PM
Now that I re-read the Wiki article, it looks like Brian beat J&D by six days, not just one, since the instrumental track was recorded on the 5th:
Quote
The song was recorded over two sessions in 1964 at Western Recorders. The instrumental track was most likely recorded on August 5 with the vocals being overdubbed five days later on August 10. The instrumental track was arranged by Brian Wilson.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 16, 2012, 10:26:29 PM
Calcutta wins the prize.

If we don't let strict definitions of "rock" versus "pop" in early 60's standards get in the way...Lawrence Welk had a #1 smash hit in 1961 with "Calcutta", featuring a harpsichord lead and baritone/tic-tac bass.

I'll always wear my love for the sound of that record on my sleeve...it's a terrific instrumental, the most popular thing Lawrence Welk ever recorded, and while it's not a "rock" song as we define rock, neither is When I Grow Up or the Jan And Dean cut...seriously, let's call it what it is - When I Grow Up would be better defined and gauged for success as a pop song on the pop charts...

...and since "Calcutta" was #1 on the Hot 100 charts and crossed over into top 40 and was also a jukebox hit, I'd say Calcutta gets the influence nod on this one, beyond getting the crown as if not strictly the first to use harpsichord, it was *easily* the most influential contemporary use of a harpsichord among Brian's age group as it was on the radio and jukeboxes all the time.

If you haven't heard Calcutta, be prepared to have a smile appear on your face somewhere around :30 on this clip of it...when the la-la vocals start doubling the harpsichord...then :53 when accordion steps in...changes stops...handclaps, six-string bass...dead string guitar...

Oh, Brian's little production tricks are all over this record a few years before Brian dreamed them up.  ;D

Seriously, it's a fun record, this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrru5Q7aUcg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrru5Q7aUcg)


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: I. Spaceman on December 16, 2012, 10:55:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mriXncI96lw


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 16, 2012, 11:01:33 PM
If we're talking about a record which was a #1 pop hit in 1961 versus a Rosemary Clooney record from 1951, which would have been more in the public's ear in 1964?

Which was in Brian's ear? No one will know, it's all opinion...I'd go both as well as a combination of all his influences, since he was like a musical sponge and soaked it all in.

But the Welk song was by far more popular, more known to Brian's own age group as a contemporary hit record still on jukeboxes in '64, and more in the subconscious of listeners who might hear a harpsichord on a pop record in 1964 and immediately think of Calcutta.

Just my opinion.



Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 16, 2012, 11:13:10 PM
Everyone should listen to both back-to-back, there are elements of Brian in both of them. I personally think I hear more of Brian's later musical trademarks in Calcutta.

The Clooney record is a piano player banging out barrelhouse/ragtime/boogie piano on a harpsichord. The Welk record also has about 4 or 5 sonic traits that would be all over Brian's own productions in 64-67, and the major 7th chords are all over Calcutta - another Brian "sound" heard in his writing.

Ironically, the harpsichord from Come On-a My House would not have sounded out of place if Jo Ann Castle had played it on Welk's show, on her tack piano.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1EbR-UQgNE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1EbR-UQgNE)


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Shane on December 16, 2012, 11:51:26 PM
Guitarfool- yeah, I totally hear what you're saying about Brian's production touches possibly borrowing from this Lawrence Welk record.  There have been many times when I've sat down to "write" a song, and I end up borrowing an element from one record, and another element from a completely different record,  and a third element from yet another unrelated record.  Put them all together in a way that's never been done before and, bang, here's a completely new song.

And as an aside... I would like to point out the very first chord of "When I Grow Up".  It lasts all of a second and a half, and that chord is absolutely nuts.  Pure genius.  I seem to remember some sort of live TV appearance by the Beach Boys where they were having trouble starting the song... pulling all of those discordant notes out of thin air.  I don't blame them one bit.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Theydon Bois on December 17, 2012, 03:40:03 AM
I've always loved this song from 1959:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXvYEeiGoA

Not only is there prominent harpsichord throughout, but at 0:51 there's an absolutely ridiculous harpsichord solo that you should all listen to and enjoy right now.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 17, 2012, 07:23:26 AM
I've always loved this song from 1959:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXvYEeiGoA

Not only is there prominent harpsichord throughout, but at 0:51 there's an absolutely ridiculous harpsichord solo that you should all listen to and enjoy right now.

I may be wrong but I believe this is the first time Nervous Norvus has been referenced on this board... ;D


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 17, 2012, 07:37:00 AM
Guitarfool- yeah, I totally hear what you're saying about Brian's production touches possibly borrowing from this Lawrence Welk record.  There have been many times when I've sat down to "write" a song, and I end up borrowing an element from one record, and another element from a completely different record,  and a third element from yet another unrelated record.  Put them all together in a way that's never been done before and, bang, here's a completely new song.

And as an aside... I would like to point out the very first chord of "When I Grow Up".  It lasts all of a second and a half, and that chord is absolutely nuts.  Pure genius.  I seem to remember some sort of live TV appearance by the Beach Boys where they were having trouble starting the song... pulling all of those discordant notes out of thin air.  I don't blame them one bit.

Some of the sonic touches and production elements are so close, it's definitely a strong possibility that Brian had at least some traces of the record Calcutta running through his mind as an influence. Of course, unless the musician/songwriter specifically names a certain record as an influence, we're left to guess based on what we hear.

And I do hear a few specific elements which people here would associate with Brian's music from 64-67 on that one Welk record. I wonder if Brian has ever been asked about it? I think it might be more than a coincidence to hear certain instruments playing in a way a lot of folks would associate with Brian Wilson's productions, and to find them all on a #1 single from 1961. The circumstantial evidence weighs heavily on this, short of Brian saying "Yeah, I loved Calcutta! That was a big influence".

Factor in another element: remember Murry Wilson's big (only) break as a songwriter was when Lawrence Welk played his song on the Welk radio show? I think we can assume the Wilson family watched the Welk show pretty regularly if not every week, with the kids gathered around the TV as well as when Welk was on the radio. The Wilson family had a direct connection to the show as Welk had given Murry what the family had hoped was his big break as a songwriter...soon to be eclipsed by his son.  :)

I'm sure the family were loyal viewers and listeners of The Lawrence Welk show, as were millions of others in the 50's and 60's.

The "When I Grow Up" false-start performance was on Ready Steady Go, totally live and an awesome performance!


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: I. Spaceman on December 17, 2012, 08:09:19 AM
.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 11:31:28 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't classify Rosemary Clooney or Lawrence Welk as rock, obviously. Was interested in *just* a rock song (or at least a rock group, addressing guitarfool's observation above). If we can't think of any other prior rock song/group with a harpsichord, I'm thinking we should change the WIGU Wiki to mention that it was the first. I think that would be worth mentioning!

One other piece I discovered last night with a harpsichord was this one by Artie Shaw. Anyone know if Brian was an Artie Shaw fan?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOb8i0BD_ho


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 11:42:50 AM
One other thing I decided to check out (not that it's a rock song either, but anyway) ... the TV series The Addams Family (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdVPSaEdja8) features a harpsichord both in the theme song *and* Lurch liked to play the instrument. So I was wondering if maybe Brian was watching TV one day and got the idea from there ... *but* ... the first episode of The Addams Family did not air until September 18, 1964 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Addams_Family#Television_series) - more than a month after the BB recorded the instruments to WIGU.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 17, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't classify Rosemary Clooney or Lawrence Welk as rock, obviously. Was interested in *just* a rock song (or at least a rock group, addressing guitarfool's observation above). If we can't think of any other prior rock song/group with a harpsichord, I'm thinking we should change the WIGU Wiki to mention that it was the first. I think that would be worth mentioning!

But I do have to quibble with the labeling of "rock" with this, because the Welk song was #1 on the same charts as Beach Boys songs would soon be appearing, and the record was played on the same top 40 radio stations as the Beach Boys would be played. Welk had what some would call a 'crossover" hit with Calcutta, meaning his audience was easy listening or adult while the record itself became a hit there and with the younger top 40 pop demographic.

Labels were less defined, especially with top 40 and especially up until at least 1967 going into 1969. You'd see all kinds of styles appearing on the same charts, it becomes a blur of labels at some point to classify them.

And all of that doesn't even mention the point which I made earlier, which I think is a valid one: When I Grow Up is a record I don't think many "outsiders" hearing it would consider a rock record when trying to label its style and sound.

It all gets fuzzy around this time, the crossover appeal of hit records was pretty unique at that time in popular music. Otherwise "The Singing Nun" wouldn't have had a #1 hit weeks before The Beatles appeared on Sullivan when they were just dominating the US charts, and Kyu Sakamoto's "Sukiyaki" would not have shared the #1 Billboard position with what we may call rock groups in 63-64.  :)


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 12:05:17 PM
^
I more or less agree with you, but I still think most people would categorize the BB as a "rock" group even though a lot of their stuff is likely to be classified as "pop." Given the near-impossibility of putting certain songs in one category or another, I would think it's safer just to go with the category the group is usually classified under.

Elvis, for example, recorded a lot of pop standards, but everyone knows he was a "rock and roll" singer.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 17, 2012, 02:34:43 PM
I think a safe bet would be to word a historical reference to the song carefully and not make the claim of being the "first" to use it on a rock record, because the variables are too shaky. Say something like "When I Grow Up featured a very early use of a harpsichord by a pop/rock group in a non-classical song..." and it's not making a claim that can't be backed up.

Folks got into this deep water area about crediting Micky Dolenz using the Moog in '67, claimed to be the "first" on a pop/rock record, and it wasn't accurate yet the claim stuck with many people who assumed it to be true.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 17, 2012, 02:42:38 PM
WIGU(TBAM) isn't even the first Beach Boys song to have harpsichord, I Get Around beat it by some months.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 03:07:22 PM
^
Really? I never noticed it in that song before.

And now that you mention it, it does appear to be in there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YifXjLbveE), though it's completely buried.

Well then ... maybe I Get Around was the first rock song with a harpichord! :D


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 03:15:55 PM
I just noticed the Wiki for I Get Around (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Get_Around) doesn't mention a harpsichord either. Maybe we could mention it in there?

But since it's so buried in this song, it makes me wonder if there were earlier rock songs with a harpsichord, but you just can't notice it. This could be a very difficult thing to track down.

Perhaps guitarfool's advice about mentioning it in the Wiki, but being vague about the claim, would be the best thing to do. And do it for both songs. But as far as I can tell, WIGU is the first song by a rock band to "prominently" feature a harpsichord.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Quzi on December 17, 2012, 06:23:12 PM
All of the examples given have been solo artists, so I guess the jury's still out if TBB are the first rock group to use a harpsichord on record. Also, do we know who played the harpsichord on I Get Around?


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: halblaineisgood on December 17, 2012, 06:29:52 PM
.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 06:42:48 PM
^
According to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBBys5TLxCI), Walking in the Rain was released in November 1964. Can't find out when it was recorded, but given that it was released so late in the year, my guess would be it was recorded after both I Get Around and When I Grow Up.

I can't discern a harpsichord it in, but as noted above, that doesn't mean anything.

EDIT: According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ronettes#.22Walking_In_The_Rain.22) it was recorded in the summer of 1964. So this could be a close one, if indeed it does contain a harpsichord.

EDIT #2: On this version here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-acBvdsP_DQ) I think I can barely hear a harpsichord. Very hard to tell, though.

BTW, until today I don't think I had heard this song in probably 30-40 years!


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 17, 2012, 07:05:17 PM
All of the examples given have been solo artists, so I guess the jury's still out if TBB are the first rock group to use a harpsichord on record. Also, do we know who played the harpsichord on I Get Around?

It's an overdub and pretty "poundy" so there's no reason it couldn't be Brian.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on December 17, 2012, 07:37:05 PM
Thing is, it's fairly interesting that you are looking at recording dates rather than release dates. I guess "who got there first" is considered to be important. But, I think, perhaps, another question is why lots of pop bands (Beach Boys, Yardbirds, Zombies, Simon & Garfunkel) started using harpsichord seemingly independent of each other around the same time.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: Myk Luhv on December 17, 2012, 07:43:59 PM
Pop music is like doing science. It doesn't matter if it's not published and no one (or very few) knows of it. (Why do you think people remember Darwin and Wallace is but a footnote?) I think release dates are far more important for that reason: influence.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 07:56:16 PM
^
I was thinking about that issue, but I presumed that if a song both got recorded *and* released, the recording date would be a little more important, for the following reason: What we *really* would want to know is, who first *thought* of putting a harpsichord into their rock-n-roll song (and then actually did it)? The point in a question like this is one of originality and creativity; if you're the first to do such-and-such in a song, that's a sign of creativity, of trying to expand the scope of a genre of art. Since it's probably impossible to find out who first "thought" of using a harpsichord in a rock song, then the closest surrogate would be (IMO) the recording date. It's not going to be perfect, but it's better than nothing.

Of course if someone thought of doing it, but never actually did it, or never released the song, that indicates a lack of follow-through and, perhaps, doubt about the merits of the idea. In which case, that doesn't "count" IMO. If you think of doing something no one has ever done before, but you don't actually *do it* then - who cares?


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 17, 2012, 08:00:11 PM
Thing is, it's fairly interesting that you are looking at recording dates rather than release dates. I guess "who got there first" is considered to be important. But, I think, perhaps, another question is why lots of pop bands (Beach Boys, Yardbirds, Zombies, Simon & Garfunkel) started using harpsichord seemingly independent of each other around the same time.
What I wonder is, how independent were these efforts in actuality? If WIGU was the first song to have a (noticeable) harpsichord, I can't help but wonder if the Yardbirds, for example, heard the song and thought, "Hey, that's a nifty idea," and then did it themselves. Once one person comes up with the idea, others will eventually copy them.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 18, 2012, 07:59:35 AM
Obviously the historical fact is that I Get Around has a harpsichord part, and should be noted. However, does the fact that many listeners after hearing the song dozens of times don't realize a harpsichord is on that record affect anything?

Truth be told, if you listen as people did in '64 through a transistor radio speaker (average 1.5-2 inches) on AM radio (narrow frequency range), or on a 45rpm record through a little player, or on anything "normal" (non-professional) listeners would have in '64, you'd barely notice the part. I doubt the Yardbirds or The Zombies or whoever else heard I Get Around and said "That's a smashing idea, a bloody harpsichord on a rock record, let's do it!"...On the other hand, When I Grow Up has it as the featured instrument, a lead instrument prominent in the arrangement and the mix.

This is where historical fact-checking can be frustrating at times. You have cases where a certain recording or session gets labeled as "the first" to feature something or another, only to find the thing it was first at doing was either irrelevant to the song itself, or buried in the mix, or the record had a limited pressing of 2,500 copies around St. Louis and was never widely known...etc.

I have to recommend again wording any encyclopedia/historical entry carefully and doing it in a way that no definite claims are made as to being "the first" on much of anything BB's related, because with the information available in 2012 there are too many who would come at such an entry pointing fingers and the credibility might suffer as a result of one mistaken entry. Such is the nit-picking common to this kind of thing. :)


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 18, 2012, 08:05:32 AM
FYI...

Musicians on these tracks were...

I Get Around – Brian (keyboards), Dennis (drums), Carl (guitars), Al (bass), track is augmented by Hal Blaine (timbales), Ray Pohlman (additional bass), Steve Douglas (saxophone), Jay Migilori (saxophone)

When I Grow Up To Be A Man – Brian (keyboards), Dennis (drums), Carl (guitars), Al (bass)


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 18, 2012, 09:20:59 AM
I agree with your approach, guitarfool. However, considering that harpsichord use became fairly common among some rock bands over the subsequent several years, I think it's worth mentioning in the Wiki for those two songs that they were, if not the "first," then "one of the first." Or maybe, "possibly the first."

Here's my first stab at a passage in Wiki for each of the two songs. Y'all let me know what you think.

I Get Around
"I Get Around was possibly the first song by a Rock and Roll band to feature use of a harpsichord. Although not discernible to the casual listener, the keyboard was played by Brian Wilson on the song as a rhythm instrument. The harpsichord can be more easily heard when listening to the instruments-only track of the song."

When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
"When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) was possibly the first song by a Rock and Roll band to feature a harpsichord as a lead instrument. Although the band had used the instrument several months earlier in I Get Around as a rhythm instrument, When I Grow Up was the band's first song which used a harpsichord as a focal instrument."

Or something like that.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Jaco on December 19, 2012, 06:16:43 AM
Let's not forget about the Four Freshmen influence, although they are more close harmony jazz, than pop.
Their use of solo harpsichord ´fills´(only in a few songs, I believe from the mid 50s?) could also have been an influence on Brian.  
I have some of it on LPs but I can't recall the song  titles but when I heard it I immediatly compared it to songs like When I Grow Up.
(Even their song titles influenced Brian: In This Whole Wild World, Imagination, We'll Be Together Again etc)


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on December 31, 2012, 08:46:04 PM
I edited the Wiki for these 2 songs with my passages below, adding an "Arrangement" section to the Wiki page for each. I used this discussion as a reference (have seen internet forum discussions used as Wiki sources before).

I agree with your approach, guitarfool. However, considering that harpsichord use became fairly common among some rock bands over the subsequent several years, I think it's worth mentioning in the Wiki for those two songs that they were, if not the "first," then "one of the first." Or maybe, "possibly the first."

Here's my first stab at a passage in Wiki for each of the two songs. Y'all let me know what you think.

I Get Around
"I Get Around was possibly the first song by a Rock and Roll band to feature use of a harpsichord. Although not discernible to the casual listener, the keyboard was played by Brian Wilson on the song as a rhythm instrument. The harpsichord can be more easily heard when listening to the instruments-only track of the song."

When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
"When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) was possibly the first song by a Rock and Roll band to feature a harpsichord as a lead instrument. Although the band had used the instrument several months earlier in I Get Around as a rhythm instrument, When I Grow Up was the band's first song which used a harpsichord as a focal instrument."

Or something like that.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: BergenWhitesMoustache on January 01, 2013, 06:11:16 AM
I think a safe bet would be to word a historical reference to the song carefully and not make the claim of being the "first" to use it on a rock record, because the variables are too shaky. Say something like "When I Grow Up featured a very early use of a harpsichord by a pop/rock group in a non-classical song..." and it's not making a claim that can't be backed up.


Yeah...sweeping claims with umpteen provisos are a pet hate of mine. People without a clue are always banging on about 'Sgt Peppers' being the 'first concept album', which of course is a massive crock, and involves ignoring THOUSANDS of other records...every Christmas lp for a start! Beach Boys party! Any record that has some sort of 'concept' behind it- Open Fire, two guitars by Johnny Mathis, I hear a new world by Joe Meek...there is an endless list! ;)

Anyway, here's a nice bit of harpsichordy baroque and roll by Ron Goodwin from '62 or so.

The Miss Marple theme!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwc1qoZW5kM


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: DonnyL on January 01, 2013, 01:34:03 PM
The Beach Boys, to me, were never really a proper 'rock band'. I think their lineage, while borrowing from 'rock', is more that of a pop group. This can be heard in BW's use of instruments like latin percussion, harpsichord, etc. If you listen to '50s & early '60s non-teenage 'pop' music, you'll hear all of this stuff. I fear that these elements were large contributors to the group being perceived as 'square' in the '60s and '70s. So I guess I just don't see the use of harpsichord to be particularly innovative or noteworthy. You could say Pat Boone was innovative too, because he brought 'Tutti Frutti' to white kids ... you could say BW maybe bridged adult pop with teenage pop or something ...

More interesting and unusual to me is how he combined instruments ... in this case ('When I Grow Up'), the harmonica and harpsichord blending into one strange sound. I remember when I was younger wondering what this magical 'instrument' was.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on January 01, 2013, 04:41:31 PM
Well either the "editors" at Wikipedia didn't like what I wrote (or the source), or someone else here changed it, because both of the edits I made last night are gone. *shakes head*

Hadn't heard the Miss Marple theme before, but does music from film scores count? Tough one to call.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Jaco on January 03, 2013, 11:55:29 AM
Quote
More interesting and unusual to me is how he combined instruments ... in this case ('When I Grow Up'), the harmonica and harpsichord blending into one strange sound. I remember when I was younger wondering what this magical 'instrument' was.

And then there's Blondie in the 70's with Denise

Their version has the same brilliant use of harmonica


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: sparkydog1725 on January 03, 2013, 02:47:45 PM
How about The Everly Brothers Nancy's Minuet (1963)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSu6g02Cgyw


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 03, 2013, 03:51:48 PM
Yeah, I knew there would be some example of a 50's act getting progressive and using one, just couldn't think of an example.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: monicker on January 08, 2013, 12:13:23 PM
This is obviously not Rock & Roll, but since this thread has turned more into a catalogue of early uses of harpsichord in popular music leading into the '60s Rock era, and songs that Brian could have possibly heard growing up, here's a neat one, Summertime, Summertime by The Jamies, from 1958. Centered around and driven by vocal harmony with a minimal arrangement for harpsichord, upright bass, and percussion. Smile-esque in instrumentation and even in its nod to a past America, in a similar vein to stuff like The Crows. You can almost hear a bit of that Mission Pak sort of sound in the Doo-wop/barbershop vocals. Wonder if Brian was into this song at all. Also, i'm curious if Brian has ever gone on record saying anything about The Chordettes. Anyone know? Gosh, those girls could sing really tight. Anyway, i digress, here's the link for Summertime, Summertime by The Jamies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeNAgBFmJpM


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on January 08, 2013, 01:05:24 PM
Thanks! I suppose my original question is answered by now. Hadn't heard that version of Summertime, Summertime before - or if I had I'd never noticed the harpsichord.

Also had never heard that Everly Brothers song before.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: SufferingFools on January 08, 2013, 01:12:51 PM
Prescinding from the question of "first" for a minute, I just wanted to mention I really like the use of the harpsichord in the Monkees' "The Girl I Knew Somewhere."

Link to the alternate version with Nesmith lead vocal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doibz5eVNmc


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on January 08, 2013, 01:32:10 PM
I suppose the next question would be, Why did the harpsichord suddenly become a popular instrument in rock/pop bands (aside from the fact it sounds kinda neat  ^-^ ). Seems ironic that a genre of music which started out as a youthful rebellion against classical, swing and in general the music of the "establishment" ended up using the very same kind of instruments those other genres did!

Maybe the kids grew up and decided the music their parents listened to wasn't so bad after all.  :P


Title: Re: Was
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 08, 2013, 03:22:07 PM
I suppose the next question would be, Why did the harpsichord suddenly become a popular instrument in rock/pop bands (aside from the fact it sounds kinda neat  ^-^ ). Seems ironic that a genre of music which started out as a youthful rebellion against classical, swing and in general the music of the "establishment" ended up using the very same kind of instruments those other genres did!

Maybe the kids grew up and decided the music their parents listened to wasn't so bad after all.  :P

It became a trend, the whole "Baroque" sound coming into pop and rock music in the mid 60's. Once a hit record has a certain "new sound", it gets copied by others. One of the main reasons I can cite would be that many of the keyboardists playing on those records had come from a classical background, and I can point to the examples of Peter Tork and the guy from The Left Banke as two musicians who added harpsichord to their hit singles of the day and who had a classical background in how they learned to play. Tork for one loved the harpsichord and playing Bach, and it's neat to hear him tell the story of how they rigged up a harpsichord onto a bicycle for him in a Monkees episode (the one with Julie Newmar).

That influence just found its way into their current music, which happened to be pop/rock. Just like Robbie Kreiger worked his Spanish and Flamenco guitar styles into Doors songs.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 08, 2013, 03:26:35 PM
I think the best usage of harpsichord in a rock context is on The Mothers Of Invention's Why Don'tcha Do Me Right. Most rock usage of the instrument leans toward classicism of the rock form. Frank used the instrument to underpin a dirty, churning blues-rock groove, dirtying up the classical.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: Theydon Bois on January 08, 2013, 03:31:08 PM
It became a trend, the whole "Baroque" sound coming into pop and rock music in the mid 60's. Once a hit record has a certain "new sound", it gets copied by others.

There may also have been an element of bands opportunistically making use of instruments that had been hired in for other musicians' sessions and which had been left in the studio.  (The Zombies are a classic example of this.)


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 08, 2013, 03:32:20 PM
I think the best usage of harpsichord in a rock context is on The Mothers Of Invention's Why Don'tcha Do Me Right. Most rock usage of the instrument leans toward classicism of the rock form. Frank used the instrument to underpin a dirty, churning blues-rock groove, dirtying up the classical.

That's an interesting example, and compare that to the Harrison song Piggies where I've seen at least one writer be critical of using the harpsichord to play "blue notes" on the instrument. I guess there is/was a certain bias among some music critics when a classical instrument is used outside the box. One of my favorites is Smokey Robinson using bassoon as the hook on "Tears Of A Clown", since the bassoon was used as a comic kind of instrument in some classical music, and Smokey (or whoever it was that made that call on the arrangement) laid it on a killer R&B/rock groove.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 08, 2013, 03:35:18 PM
It became a trend, the whole "Baroque" sound coming into pop and rock music in the mid 60's. Once a hit record has a certain "new sound", it gets copied by others.

There may also have been an element of bands opportunistically making use of instruments that had been hired in for other musicians' sessions and which had been left in the studio.  (The Zombies are a classic example of this.)

+1 The Monkees did this too, with a celeste that had been in the studio and which Micky on the HQ Sessions is heard playing and if I remember he didn't know what it was called! That celeste turned up on the album, if I recall, and probably wouldn't have if it were not in that studio.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Dave Modny on January 08, 2013, 09:22:19 PM
Anyone know of any - perhaps obscure - rock songs from the early 60's or even the 50's that used a harpsichord?

Certainly don't know if it's one of the earliest, or exactly how much "rock" is needed to qualify, but the first song that popped into my head was Sam Cooke's "That's It - I Quit - I'm Movin' On" from early 1961.


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on January 08, 2013, 09:33:37 PM
Well if there's one thing I can say about this thread, it's that I've heard a lot of songs I never heard before!

That in itself made the question a good one to ask. ;)


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Mitchell on January 09, 2013, 08:13:33 PM
As an ardent lover of the sound of a harpsichord this thread has some great stuff in it.

Summertime, Summertime was later covered by "Jan and Dean" (actually Dean & friends, I think). That version was produced by Gary Zekley who also had several great harpsichord tracks on the Yellow Balloon album. I imagine Brian would have been familiar with it. J&D also covered Gee and Barbara Ann...


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Mitchell on January 09, 2013, 08:17:02 PM
Oh, also, according to some liner notes I recently read, the Ronettes' Walkin in the Rain was recorded in September 1964. The Ronettes album is incredible... I wouldn't be surprised if it were a huge influence on Pet Sounds (it also has Be My Baby), even though I never really hear about it (I know Brian's quoted as loving the Christmas album).


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on January 09, 2013, 08:40:18 PM
^
halblaineisgood brought up Walking in the Rain on pg. 2, but we weren't sure when it was recorded. Thanks for the info!

But if it was September, WIGU still beats it by a month (not that it means anything more for this discussion).


Title: Re: Was
Post by: SMiLE-addict on January 09, 2013, 08:54:13 PM
^
Really? I never noticed it in that song before.

And now that you mention it, it does appear to be in there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YifXjLbveE), though it's completely buried.

Well then ... maybe I Get Around was the first rock song with a harpichord! :D
Somebody commenting in that link says this song here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAEcWLYrDuc) from 1963 also features a harpsichord, but if it's there it's very hard to discern, even harder than on I Get Around.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on June 13, 2014, 09:26:25 AM
I promised myself I'd never come back here but just one last message.

I was listening to a song yesterday and it made me think of this thread and then I thought of another major track that no one here made mention of.

The first is Roy Orbison's Blue Bayou and the second, and perhaps more important is Frankie Avalon's Venus which Brian Wilson on Facebook (I know) mentioned as "one of my top 10 All Time Favorites!" on August 1, 2011.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on June 13, 2014, 11:51:01 AM
Come back Rockandroll! :-\


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: Jim Rockford on June 13, 2014, 03:05:17 PM
I wonder. What was the last hit song that used one?


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on June 13, 2014, 09:51:10 PM
I promised myself I'd never come back here but just one last message.

I was listening to a song yesterday and it made me think of this thread and then I thought of another major track that no one here made mention of.

The first is Roy Orbison's Blue Bayou and the second, and perhaps more important is Frankie Avalon's Venus which Brian Wilson on Facebook (I know) mentioned as "one of my top 10 All Time Favorites!" on August 1, 2011.
That sentence is totally relevant to the subject of the thread, yep. Only thing's missing is you didn't name any reasons of your leaving. Like how everyone treated you so badly here, falling out with drbeachboy (one of the good posters, btw) etc. etc. But, at least we've got "Blue Bayou" & "Venus".


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: halblaineisgood on June 15, 2014, 02:12:00 AM
.


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: JK on June 18, 2014, 04:49:26 AM
Check out this topic (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15344.0.html) for more examples....
 


Title: Re: Was \
Post by: bringahorseinhere? on June 18, 2014, 05:01:53 PM
does this count??... a big hit in some countries...

jimmie Rodgers - English country garden  (1962?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUyxCP5Rvco&list=PLD288D83D38671F3D

RickB