The Smiley Smile Message Board

Hello fellow Beach Boys' obsessed bunch of freaks  :p

I was about to reply something to a thread I started on things I don't understand from the band, but then a thought came to mind: if Brian had not produced the Beach Boys, would he have attained the same level of recognition he enjoys today?

The BBs had the vocal blend essential to their style and (early) success. But there were also great vocal bands out there in the 60s (Mammas & Pappas for ex) that Brian could have produced as well. Could that have worked?

Although loving everyone in the band, I got to confess I'm leaning towards being a Brianista. Without Brian the BBs would have never achieved what they did in the 60s. But I'm a moderate Brianista and I do acknowledge the successful brew the band had back in the day and the contribution of each band member (Carl in particular).

What do you guys think? Would this be a good topic to start discussing? Not sure if this is already addresses in another thread elsewhere, my apologies if so.

The best proof may be in the outside productions Brian did in the 60's. I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965. For his creative vision and the way he wanted to produce music, he had the perfect group to realize those visions. He may have done some great things on his own, but nothing will match the power of that group and how it worked so well for the songs they were performing.

Well, I'd say Guess I'm Dumb rivals pretty much any track the Beach Boys recorded pre-1965, but that's just an opinion...

The Beach Boys success gave Brian a vehicle to experiment, and to experiment on a highly visible level. Brian could have made Pet Sounds by himself, but far fewer people would have heard it, and I doubt it would be considered one of the great albums of all time today.

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Where's the hook on Guess I'm Dumb?  :) It sounds to me like Phil Spector coasting down a hill with his car in neutral, it's moving and all the sonics are there but I don't hear as many peaks and valleys which would give it interest.

It's definitely opinion, but there is nothing jumping out of the speakers like I Get Around, no hooks like Dance Dance Dance or Surfin Safari, or nothing like Don't Worry Baby or Surfer Girl to draw in a wide range of listeners. Putting all of these songs into context, it becomes easier to hear why certain records never made it as big while others still inspire stadiums full of people. Brian at his best combined all the elements and made hit records. Guess I'm Dumb is missing some of the elements. In my opinion.  :)

Brian should have graduated from UCLA in music composition.

I'll go one further and say most of them weren't even any good.

Brian certainly had the ability, but if there hadn't been a Beach Boys band, I don't think he would've gotten a contract. His own tastes were too MOR to break in at that point. If he would have gotten a deal, at the very most he could have been another Richard Carpenter.

Everything clicked at the right time.

I can understand where you're coming from - the song itself might not be chock full of pop hooks, but there's just something about it I really dig. I like the drums (z'at Hal?), I like Glen's vocal, I love the lyric, I like the way it glides along. It's not an exciting record, doesn't jump out of the speakers like some of the ones you've cited, but it's got a mysterious quality about it, I dunno...it just clicks with me. What's funny to me is that I've had more than one person tell me they like my version better than Glen's!  ???

Just out of curiosity, do Mozart fanatics refer to Mozart as the Brian Wilson of his day?

I LOVE the song, but if the BB did not exist, I seriously doubt Brian ever would have gotten the chance to record it. Heck, he might not have ever written it!

Brian helped write 'Surf City' - in fact, most of the chord changes and riffs are trademark Brian. And it became a #1 hit.

He didn't need The Beach Boys to write great music. However, I doubt he would be as famous as he is without The Beach Boys.

Glens voice bothers the sh*t out of me on that song. Your cover really shows the potential this song had as huge hit. Put Beach Boys vocals over Brian's backing track and you have a solid Pet Sounds song.

Oh yeah, no doubt. But...he wrote that song after he started the group and they became successful. He was already famous by that point. IF he had been a complete unknown, would Jan & Dean have taken the song?  Hell, would surfing even be as big of a 'thing' in 1963 if the Beach Boys hadn't made good? It was all a chain reaction.

Yeah, you're right. Thinking about an alternate chain of events in Brian's life is mind-boggling :o

I've always wondered where he would've ended up had The Beach Boys never been formed....

I think Brian's productions for The Honeys in 1963 and 1964 are better than those he did for The Beach Boys in that same era. They might not be as great RECORDS, all told, or compositions, but he was clearly progressing in terms of arranging and combining instruments, in a way he may have been shy to exhibit in the more basic BB framework of the time. He's A Doll and The One You Can't Have are actually two of my favorite records of all time.

Mozart is a bad comparison: the Salzburg genius could compose opera, chamber music, symphonies and every other style of his day. As much as I love Brian, he didn't even have the pop equivalent of that range: no real blues, gospel or jazz, for example.

Well, Brian did use a LOT of jazz chord structure in his writing (both vocally, and instrumentally), and he did have a feel for gospel the one time he did it.

Def. no blues, though.

What Ian said. I'm more shocked that they weren't huge hits. He's a Doll in particular. And Pamela Jean's track is much more propulsive than Car Crazy Cutie.

That said, he certainly needed the Beach Boys to be successful and ultimately stretch to "Mozart" proportions or whatever.

Yeah, he basically introduced jazz chords to top40 rock and roll. And his backing tracks were like miniature symphonies.

I think it's a fair comparison.

Pocket symphonies, even!


:lol

Brian needed a break like so many others desperately seek. The Beach Boys were it.

I don't get the point about speculating about stuff like this. Brian DID work with The Beach Boys, and that's what happened. So I'm not gonna think about what woulda happened otherwise. Or what woulda happened if he was able to make full albums in the '70s full of rockin' stuff like "Mess of Help" and "Marcella", or what woulda happened if he had something closer to his "classic" voice in the late '70s and on. What happened happened. And the only thing that matters to me is finding out more about the work he has done in the last 50 years, and also hearing the work that hasn't gotten released yet. But it's not use fantasizing about stuff that didn't happen. Sorry to be such a jerk about this but it just seems useless.

I understand your point, but if I may...
 
Different people are here for different reasons, and they find enjoyment. Some might be digging into the reality as deeply as possible, making this something of either a research site or a place to join other like-minded fans. Fine. Others may look at the oddities, the dead ends, and the what-ifs in history and find enjoyment in speculating about the obviously unanswerable, the obviously impossible. It is of great use to fantasize about such things if that is what someone thinks is enjoyable. You're welcome to be interested in digging into the reality, but recognize that what matters to you doesn't necessarily matter to everyone--or necessarily even anyone--else. We all have our motivations and we all have our pleasures. It's no big deal.

Regarding the original post, btw, my answer is no.

I miss your posts Luther. Glad to see you still come around here from time to time!

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.

Both Luther and Jim are right (say what?). It's important to understand "what happened", and it's extremely enjoyable to explore alternate realities, particularly when they provide opportunities to put the facts into better context.

But of course these activities are mutually exclusive, and people will wind up positioned somewhere on the spectrum in terms of the relative merits of either approach.

Regarding the issue raised by the OP, its a darned good thing that Brian had the Beach Boys to jump-start and focus his creativity...not only would he not be regarded as a modern-day Mozart (by those who need to make such comparisons), but we'd be missing the very reason that we are here together.

I think the answer to the original question is plain as the nose on your face: without the specific formative details of Brian's life--both good and bad, nurturing and abusive--he'd've had a much different life. And so would we, because he almost certainly wouldn't have been the Brian Wilson we know and revere.

Those who like to make these Mozart comparisons, however, really need to get better grounded in "what happened" to Mozart...who was one of the world's greatest child prodigies, writing long-form works before the rest of us started grade school and packing an incredibly prolific composing career into only 35 years. While it's an undeniably alluring analogy, it's also a very tenuous one.

I was rather harsh on his vocals in my previous post - no, he has a good voice, it's just not my taste.

There is no version with the BBs doing backing vocals - it was Brian and The Honeys, IIRC.

I vote we would have almost certainly never heard of Brian.

My fault! Yes, that one!

Again, do people who hold Mozart in as high esteem as we hold Brian agree with this assessment?

Who's doing the low vocal in the tag?

It's not fair to single out Brian, though! We could apply this to every notable musician from Sinatra to Elvis to Lennon and McCartney, and let's say if Elvis had landed a good paying job on an oil rig somewhere in Texas he never would have gone to Sam Phillips to cut a record for his mother and there would be no Elvis.

It can literally be taken to infinity and beyond to speculate in this way, let's just say had everything not lined up exactly as it did things would be different. I thought the original question was an interesting one, obviously Brian was talented but if not for the Beach Boys, in 1966 he may have been a working guy driving a family station wagon loaded with kids on their way to a checkup from "Uncle Al" the dentist, stopping into the local gas station for a fill-up where he'd say hi to Mike Love tending the pumps and get the "family discount" on his next oil change, who knows.

I don't think about this subject much unless it's brought up on the board. Using process of elimination...

I don't think Brian would've joined a band. He didn't like performing and he didn't like travelling. If he couldn't enjoy himself as a Beach Boy (with his brothers), I'm not sure under what circumstances he would've enjoyed being in a group.

While Brian was a good musician, I'm not sure he had the chops to be a session player. Or, I don't think he would've wanted to be a session player. Do you think he had enough patience for that kind of job?

So, that leaves songwriting. While Brian could write quality songs at a very young age, he would've needed connections and ambition to shop his songs. I don't think he traveled in a circle that could've provided him connections. Would he be driven on his own to sell his songs. Would he have the confidence? Did he value money?

Brian was unlucky in many things during his youth, but, he was lucky that Murry was driven and Brian was lucky that he had the necessary support to be a Beach Boy. I think there's a very good chance that Brian could've drifted to a very unhealthy lifestyle (I know, I know. How much unhealthier could it be than in the Beach Boys). Sometimes I envision a Syd Barrett situation with the living in the parents' basement thing...

"Pray For Surf" has a hard rocking punch Brian doesn't seem to have gone for when recording the Beach Boys.

I agree and I think there are plenty of other good songs at that time: Story of My Life, Thinking About My Baby, Pray for Surf, Surfin' Down the Swanee River...

Modern-day Mozart'd be nothing without Bruce Johnston conducting.

I think you touched on something interesting with that last paragraph. for all we know Brian coulda been a lot worse off...

I definitely thought it was Mike, but Brian could get pretty low when he wanted. It wouldn't be the first time I got them two mixed up.

From the Beach Boys FAQ book...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Beach-Boys-FAQ-Americas/dp/0879309873/ref=sr_tc_2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354586981&sr=1-2-ent


Dennis Wilson once famously stated that “Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys” and the rest of the group his messengers. “He’s everything, we’re nothing.” As with most Dennis Wilson quotes, this one contains some truth, some exaggeration, some bite, and some humility. No doubt that Brian was the Beach Boys sun and the others were the unique planets in his solar system. The quote may have been Dennis’ stealthy way of needling credit-grabbing Mike Love. But Dennis was also truthfully admitting that none of the others, including himself, could ever match Brian’s creative gift, and that they were all lucky to have had Brian lead them to fame and fortune.

As Brian evolved as an arranger and producer, the studio became his laboratory, and the Beach Boys recording sessions became his concentrated experiments. Each one broke new ground and gave Brian the momentum and the confidence to take things a step further. His creative growth, and by extension the group’s, was astonishing. Compare the basic raw garage sound of “409” recorded in mid 1962 to the arrangement wizardry of “I Get Around” recorded in mid 1964. That kind of growth in just two years is nothing short of stunning. And Brian was only getting warmed up. Within another two years he’d make the once futuristic sounding “I Get Around” seem absolutely archaic with the ultra-rich productions within Pet Sounds and the envelope pushing single “Good Vibrations”. Brian may have burnt out at a relatively early age, but what he accomplished by age 25 will forever stand as one of, if not the greatest, streaks of brilliance by any artist of his time.

So yes, Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys, in the sense that it was his creativity and genius vision that led the group to glory. But genius does not exist in a vacuum. True genius usually has an awesome support system. Brian’s support system, though at times dysfunctional, and at times a barrier, was in its own way as brilliant as he was. From Murry’s fearless drive, to Dennis’ instinct and charisma, to Carl’s steadiness and one-of-a kind voice, to Mike’s innate ability to connect with his lyrics, Brian had an incredible gang.

And did I mention those voices? Well, I did mention Carl, who had one of the greatest vocal gifts in pop history. Mike’s voice was distinct and made the Beach Boys immediately identifiable. Al’s voice was rich, versatile, and most importantly could mimic Brian’s. Dennis’ vocals had that sandpaper texture that made everything seem more sensual and honest. Bruce’s precise, clear and sugary sound was the perfect opposite of Dennis. And Brian’s…his falsetto could raise goose bumps and bring tears. It could also make everything seem a little happier and a little sunnier. Put them all together with Brian’s savant-like ability to create interweaving and interlocking parts, and what you had was the prettiest, most sophisticated, euphoria inducing sound to ever emit from the lips of human beings.

The Beach Boys vocal sound at its best is nothing short of pure pop bliss. If aliens ever land on earth and we need to impress them quickly, just shoot a little “Our Prayer” their way and they’ll immediately understand everything worthwhile about the human race. Brian found the good or the God within us all, the indescribable spiritual chord that connects us. But he wasn’t alone in his discovery. He created the genius body of work along with his brothers, his cousin and his friends. Brian Wilson is The Beach Boys, but Brian Wilson isn’t Brian Wilson without them.

I visit this damn board everyday and yet at times I forget just how great The Beach Boys were. The other week when I watched the "Doin' It Again" documentary, the vintage footage of them all singing "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" just knocked me out. They were what, between the ages of 15 - 20 when they done that. No group today could pull that off at such a young age. The Beach Boys were amazing.

Its amazing they did their complex harmonies live perfectly with screaming girls and no monitors.

While being directed by a guy with one ear. They're truly amazing.

No comparison to Mozart at all. Mozart was a genius on every level (and was nothing like the fictional movie Amadeus portrayed him). Brian is a very talented songwriter who hit a very long dry spell caused by a combination of insecurity / mental illness / laziness / hard drugs & drink.

I have that 180 cd set of complete Mozart works and even K 1-5 (written as a child) are way more sophisticated then "Surfin'" as an example. I won't go any further as this is an unfair comparison.

Brian Wilson is a modern day Brian Wilson. The chances of seeing another Mozart in our life times would be akin to seeing another rock band become as successful or influential as the Beatles (not just musically but culturally, etc.). Brian belongs in his own category but I don't think he is a genius. The closest that a rock musician/composer has come to being a "genius" was Frank Zappa but even he was miles behind Mozart.

I don't know if complexity should be the only measure. There are later composers who wrote more complex harmonies than Mozart but did not have Mozart's beauty. Zappa did not make anything as beautiful as Pet Sounds. I'm sure Leonard Bernstein was miles ahead of Brian as a technical composer but I would choose Brian's work over his for emotional power, just as I'd have John Lennon over Hoagy Carmichael.

Mozart is greater than Brian because he created beauty over a wider range: from opera to piano sonatas. 180 CDs of beauty, as you say.

I disagree.

How about Chopin - known for complexity and virtuosity, but even more for his feeling. It has always bugged me to hear Brian compared to classical composers like Mozart because yes, it's an unfair comparison. Brian was a genius at elevating pop art to un-selfconscious moments of sublimity. And he can hear and compose vocal harmonies extremely well. But on the level of Mozart, or Chopin, or in the same arena? Nah.

I seem to recall a quote from Brian relating how he went to a live performance of something or other - some massive orchestral thing, like a Mass or a Requiem - and afterwards he said "I feel like a musical midget." It may actually have been a quote from Carl relating to something Brian said... Am I growing delirious or can anyone else remember this?

I couldn't agree more, Mr. Stebbins, your comment almost made me cry.

Hey guys, the whole Mozart comparison is not mine. I've read that quote many times, in many different places. Sounds catchy from a 'marketing' point-of-view, but it can surely be questioned.

Still, music abilities aside, there's a lot of commonalities between both artists. Complicated family background, innate musical abilities (within proportions), tough father figure driven by business, early work involving family members (Mozart's sister), success coming at a very early age, controversy of work at a more mature age, falling from grace in the music industry/market/audiences and actual late rehabilitation of the complete work of the musician. The only difference is that we still have Brian to celebrate his genius; poor Mozart died in an unjustifiable obscurity.

Makes sense?

Brian created complex chord progressions that are just as beautiful as anything Mozart did (obviously just my opinion, but I think Philip Lambert also shares a view similar to this - I could be mistaken). Also, Brian was working in the confines of the current music phase (where 3 1/2 minutes was the time allotted for a record) - and he pushed those boundaries to their very limits. He crammed symphonies into the tiny space of a 45.

Brian was a genius of his craft. Because he did not write 180 CDs worth of Operas or Symphonies doesn't make him less brilliant than Mozart.

People compare him to Mozart because they both created some of the most beautiful music in the history of mankind. nuff said.

I agree 100% with that, rab.

Here's something else... it's fun to do a 'what-if' type of deal with artists, but there's something different in this case. In order for there not to be a Beach Boys, something fundamentally different would have to have occurred with the family situation. It's different since this was a family. Unlike a lot of other bands, where a chance encounter leads to a band formation, the family situation by its very nature made the band inevitable. They would have had to be fundamentally different people in order for it not to happen. Murry and Audree were very musical people, and they passed that on to their children. About the only thing that would have prevented it would have to be a crib death, or Carl gets run over by a car, or something like that. It was going to happen just because of the family situation. It was inevitable. A better 'what if' would be something along the lines of 'what if the Morgans liked the initial pre-Surfin' audition'?

Yes sir, agree

Ok, to make things a bit more structured, lets think about the following scenario. Brian releases 'Pet Sounds' as a solo effort, with guest vocals from Carl Wison (GOKs) and Mike Love (Hang on to your Ego). As we all know, Brian could've layered down all vocal tracks in all the songs in this album.

Since this is not a BBs album, 'Pet Sounds' tops the charts, hailed as masterpiece of musical production and arrangements. Critics hail Brian's smart use of session musicians and his writing maturity (acknowledging the importance of new lyricist partner, Tony Asher).

The band becomes weary of Brian's newly-gained position in the industry. To compensate them, Brian finishes 'Good Vibrations', a demo during the 'PS' sessions and gives them to the boys. Hits number one both sides of the Atlantic, everyone goes crazy for Brian's ability to produce both serious music and hit pocket symphonies for the kids.

Liberated from any doubts about his personal abilities, freed from performing duties, Brian becomes an independent artist and produces the decade-defining album 'Smile'. The Beatles hire Brian to help them produce a WIP project, code-named 'Pepper' and an artistic friendship is established between Brian & Paul. The duo would then produce and release the best music of the 20th century.

Just a nice thought  :)

This would be better: McCartney and Brian get together, snort some Adderall, and give us a holy combination of McCartney II and Brian Loves You. That would rule way more than Brian helping produce/arrange overwrought Beatles albums.

 :lol

One thing I'd like to mention that's not just about this thread, but rather a common recurring theme on this board and with pop disciples of a certain sort, is this: the comparisons or attempts to align Brian Wilson with Mozart or any other "classical" musician are just sad. They are an unnecessary attempt to justify someone who needs no justification. And to Wilson's detriment, it is a comparison without measurable benefits.

The good: Brian Wilson wrote, arranged, produced, played on, and sang some of the most loved popular music ever. He innovated that industry and reached huge audiences. That has to be enough.

The bad: the efforts of comparison to classical music assume that form of music is a higher form are inherently self-defeating. If that's the realm we're talking about, Wilson is just an example of a talented, upper level outsider. But seriously, using non-root tones in the bass? Or surprising key changes? These things are not impressive in that context. The point isn't that what Wilson did isn't amazing, but rather that context matters.

On that subject … Mozart is just someone--someone brilliant, mind you--who has caught the public's imagination because of marketing. Amadeus and so forth. Syphillis. Farting. Et cetera. A movie shouldn't fool you into thinking that the word "Mozart" is any more magical than the word "Brian," but for that matter, than the word "Gram" or "Elvis" or "Fiona" or "Emmylou" or "John" or "Kevin." These are all just names. People make music, and there is no god-touch for any of them ensuring each output will be blessed. There is nothing magical about a pop musician who can be compared to a classical musician, or a jazz musician to a pop musician, etc etc.

All of it is music. It does different things for different people, and further complicating the situation, different people get something different from it (in each instance). Some areas are based in deep theory, others in memorable hooks, others in technical brilliance. There are always artists blurring lines. But let's calm down and appreciate things for what they are without making silly aspirational (and insecure) comparisons.

Hi Luther, thanks for commenting in this thread.

I understand your point and I agree that the greater-public visibility Mozart has comes from the movie. But for people who know about classical music history, Mozart still stands as an exception and as a genius. Great composers like Brahms or Lizt, even the great Bach, came from musically educated families and had a very demanding training (private lessons, conservatories) when growing up. They all indeed showed musical abilities (or better, inclinations) at early stages but the potential they developed came from hard-work (studying), good relationships with mecenas and being at the right place at the right time.

Take Salieri for example (not the cartoon from the movie, the real-life character). He was an impressive musician in his own right, wrote great pieces of work and had most of the above-to-superior knowledge of classical composing. But he acknowledged something in Mozart that he couldn't study, nor learn, nor developed. It was something you have to be born with and it's that extra level that creates a genius.

And Brian indeed is in this category. God only knows if he wouldnt have gone through the life path of drugs and mental illness, where would his work be right now. Someone deaf, with no musical training (like real one), from such a complicated family (with whatever limited musical atmosphere) that could score the violins section in 'Dont talk...' has something else in his brain.

So yes, both Brian and Mozart, Beethoven, Paganini are geniuses. I kind of answer my question at the beginning of this thread: Yes, Brian would have been equally admired and regarded as a genius 'cause its in him.

He'd be genius alright, but would he have gotten his shot at proving his skills? Not necessarily, and that would be even more tragic than all the other tragedies in his life combined. So I'd say the BB's were a blessing for Brian.

Yes sir, like Dennis said, the BBs were the messengers of Brian's genius.

And then again, would Mozart have been Mozart of his time without mecenates and his father's efforts? Maybe not. Every genius needs a platform, a starting point.

yes, he'd be a genius, but a frustrated one.  The Beach Boys were (are) Brian's greatest instrument.  Brian without the Beach Boys would be like Mozart without the piano. Or Kermit without the banjo.

...or AGD without idiots.

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nailed it

In 'Pet Sounds', the BBs were useful to Brian for their voices. But the album has been hailed for its production, thematic unity and lyrical maturity.

Even with Brian-only vocals, the album would still have the above-mentioned qualities. It was a Brian album from A to Z...and if the best album ever in the history of rock is not sufficient proof of his individual genius, then what is it?

Yes, Brian needed his father push, Mike's ambition and the band during the early years. But after 'Summer Days...' he needed them just for the voices (TSS is the proof).

I don't think he'd have been a frustrated genius. I actually think he became a frustrated genius for staying with a band that did not understand his musical growth.

I agree.

Today I came across an article in Standpoint titled "The Mozart Delusion," by Norman Lebrecht, found at http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/4832/full, that makes some of the points I was hinting at earlier in this thread about the problem with deifying Mozart (or Wilson, for that matter). I've quoted parts of a few relevant paragraphs below. I hope you'll find it interesting, and also keep it in context: I love Mozart (and Wilson) .. but that's no reason to get silly about them.

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If any of that, and especially the second paragraph, was aimed at me, you need to learn some manners.

There's no need to blow things out of proportion. The comparison with Mozart is just contextual, how an artist at some point in time had a large impact in the cultural momentum of a society and how their musical output has grown in appreciation after their heyday.

The comparison ends basically there. True, both Brian and Mr. Amadeus were born with musical skills above average and they both were able to produce some of the most beautiful pieces of art in human history. Each a genius in their own terms and in a specific artistic style.

Maybe I should change the title of the thread to ''Brian without the BBs: Would he still be regarded as a modern-day [insert name of your genius of choice}'? Never thought Mozart's name would make such a fuzz.

No, Mozart worked his ass of, he literally worked himself to death! from his childhood he was crafting masterpieces. Brian had a short burst of wonder in his mid 20's then sat on his ass the rest of his life. Highly doubtful that such a comparison would ever be made, despite Brian's unique and marvelous sound and enduring place in western culture.

.

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion and while I'm not sure what "a fuzz" is in this context (that's a great term--do you mind me asking where you're from and whether it is common there?), I'm not trying to make one. And no doubt, my issue with the topic is less the main thrust of the initial question--would Wilson still be highly regarded if not for the Beach Boys?--than with the comparison to "classical" composers in general AND Mozart in particular.

So let me just make two (hopefully) quick final points on the subject to address the composer-in-general point and the Mozart-specific point, then I can be done with it.

1) Genius-Composer-In-General. This one just doesn't make much sense to me for a lot of reasons, for reasons made in my initial post on the subject. If we're talking about the music itself, Wilson's is just nowhere near as complex. That's not an insult. It's just true. Conversely, in the context of being appreciated by the composer's peers and sometimes the public, the comparison works, but it just doesn't seem especially noteworthy.

2) Mozart-Specific. Multi-part issue here--not with any posters on this board but the world in general.

a) Mozart being somewhat artificially raised to deific (I made up that word) heights and subsequently being used as some kind of ultimate comparison. If everyone understands it's more shorthand than reality, I guess it's fine (if lazy).

b) If we're talking in terms of the music itself, A v B (or rather WAM v BDW), they are similar in terms of popularity within their own (very different) contexts. BDW's probably was more innovative in its context than was WAM's. (I just realized I wish that my initials were WAM. I would insist people called me WAM, pronounced like wham. That would be f***ing awesome!) And as noted in my first post and general point above, in terms of direct comparison (as opposed to comparisons within their own contexts), BDW's is not even close in terms of complexity.

c) In terms of their talents separated from resulting music, I think a comparison holds less water: WAM was a true child prodigy in terms of both composition and performance, being trotted about Europe and amazing people; BDW could hum basic tunes at an early age and, eventually, painstakingly learned to transcribe music bar-by-bar, and later to write, arrange, produce, etc. very well.

d) If we're talking personalities or lives, which is a big part of what I always suspect drives the comparison ("troubled genius," among the most tired stereotypes there is, in my opinion), the biggest similarity is just a broad storyline of "child star gone wrong." Again, it's such a common storyline it doesn't seem worth mentioning. You could make it more specific by adding "parent of child star a big part of the problem." Remains common storyline among child stars gone wrong. The specifics of their issues are quite different, so I don't know that you can take it that much further. Mozart remained a hard worker throughout his life, Wilson took breaks. Mozart remained a public figure, Wilson kept out of sight for periods. They share a sense of humor, though Mozart's tended to be toward sh*t-jokes... (Classy guy.) And I'm not sure Mozart had real mental health issues (prior to whatever his final illness led to, which isn't really the same thing), though it would be tough to say considering the lack of understanding of them.

And finally--yes, I said this would be short and halfheartedly apologize that it wasn't--to the real point of the question: would BDW be held in high regard as a musical figure if not for the Beach Boys? Probably not; it's unlikely he would have been known well enough to have been appreciated, though it's possible he could have gotten a gig as a staff songwriter and producer at some point and gotten into the industry through that route.

Brian's Bach!
 
 ;D

Hey Luther, I was by no means referring to you with my last post. It was just a comment to the reaction the name Mozart generated in this thread.

I thought it was interesting the idea to (somehow) draw comparisons between Brian and such a historical figure. You made some really good points, specially the difference between their work dedication throughout the years and their personality.

But again (and I think we agree) both artists live(d) in different contexts and a straight comparison is neither possible nor desirable.

Just one last comment. Mozart wrote music, he performed it when alive, but we don't have any recordings (for obvious reasons). The greatness of his oeuvre comes from how famous Directors & Orchestras have arranged and performed his work over time. So in a way for us Mozart (or any other great composer from his time) is a genius because other great musicians have made him one. If the only example of his work were recordings of performances from a bad, lousy orchestra, I doubt he would have the same general appreciation.

Likewise when Brian broke free in his musical production from the limitations of the band (as musical performers, not vocalists), he was regarded a genius. True, there was a marketing campaign behind it, but anyone with 2 ears (or even one  :lol) would agree after listening to the tag to 'God Only Knows'.

Can you imagine 100 years from now a top orchestra performing 'Pet Sounds' as a symphony? And then image the public then not knowing the original recordings from the BBs. I'm almost certain that they wouldn't find the comparison between BDW and WAM so out of place.

Again, it all depends in the context  ;)

P.S.

• I agree, WAM sounds a mofo of a name!
• I'm from crazy Montreal, where are you from?

A symphony performing Pet Sounds sans vocals would come off closer to Mantovani than Mozart. But hey, I like Mantovani. Without The Beach Boys, would Brian be regarded as another Mantovani?

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David McCallum.