The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-ms-mike-love-beach-boys-on-brian-wilson-20121004,0,261746.story

I need some time to process this, but at first, it seems like a very thoughtful and sincere look into the mind of Mike Love and the goings on of the last few weeks.

This is actually really beautiful.

Does a good job at explaining in a rational way what happened. It may seem a little forced and hokey and maybe a bit too self-congtratulatory - but that's Mike Love. Might have been a little better if they had concocted this like a week ago - the whole thing seemed to blow over by now even here. But, here's hoping it fixes all the problems...

I hope they get together again next summer.

It doesn't have to be a ridiculous 70+ date tour, they should just do as many as they feel like.

Nice piece by Mike. A couple of weeks late maybe, but nice.


"Brian is writing a new album." - For whom?  8)

We are already nitpicking it. Nice.

I thought it was a lovely article.

Mad to see a bunch of 'barely fans' jump on the Mike hating bandwagon. I'm sure he did some shitty things from time to time, but NO one could be as bad as people make him out to be

Great piece.

Contradicts nothing we already knew and sets the record as straight as it could possibly be set and with a lot of love and utmost respect thrown in.

I'm buying it.

Great peace.

As I wrote in the other thread, no surprises but some really beautifully expressed sentiment from Mike here. Nice job.

Awesome. Mike's a good dude.

If the Endless Summer Continues press release had projected a fraction of the elegance and good will that this article does Mike never would have had a problem. If Mike truly wrote this then he should fire his publicist and hire himself.

I must admit, as a full time lurker of this board for the 'newest' news and rumors regarding the band.....this board can be a shifting tidal wave soap opera emotional roller coaster.  Mike Love is a hero and villain. 

Excellent article by Mr. Love.  Totally outstanding in fact.

I will now await NEXT summer's ALBUM and tour!!!!

 ;D

Well, mostly he's the typecast villain / evil mastermind. But there are special episodes of Smiley Smile where he suddenly shows his kindhearted side and says nice things. Twists and turns such as this are the reason why Smiley Smile has been such a popular show for years!

(http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/mfbq-beach-boys-28052302-mbqf-2-25602390/5,h=343.bild.jpeg)

I think you might be on to something there…

Perhaps Brian's peeps wrote it if they required it.

Be fascinating to see how this is received in the Land of Bloo.

I've been thinking it over, and I just can't see Mike quoting the Summer's Gone lyrics like that - especially after the account of him doing the gun-to-his-head motion while listening to the playback in the studio, and then again when a band member told a board member that Brian had to beg Mike to have it included in the show.

Mike is a lyrics guy, he's brilliant at using them effectively. The words to "Summer's Gone" happened to fit his agenda here.

"Brian said some really kind things to me about how my early songs gave him the freedom to go deeper musically"

Interesting comment...

This would support the sincerity that was shown by everyone during the Reunion Tour.
We should keep in mind that it wasn't until the "sensationalism" headlines from a paper hit that the "fired" story got it legs from other media that was too lazy to get the facts.
Some really good points in the article: the music is the legacy; the reunion tour wasn't meant to be years in length (good explanation as to how it expanded); there was an understanding of the end game; he wants to take the music to locales that don't always get the opportunity to see the live performance (a point I noted in another thread); he couldn't fire Brian (and wouldn't); the Summer's Gone song has some room for interpretation (some commentators here have noted that).
Agreed, it should have come out earlier but probably with the demands of being on the road there wasn't time at that time.
And, as to how it presents the individual here, perhaps sometimes with age comes insight and better perspective.

Damn, I totally missed that. There's so much in that comment alone...  :lol Legitimating his self-praise by loosely quoting Brian, calling early BBs material "my early songs", claiming part of the credit for Brian's more sophisticated endeavours (even liberating Brian..) et cetera - classic ML. Then again, still a nice piece. And for some reason I'm sure Mike wrote it.

The Moon landing was definitely faked.

Nice reflection by Mike.   

But I still think, if he is sincere about how great Al Jardine is, he would try to facilitate a way to  include Al  in the Bruce/Mike lineup.    That has been the real sticking point for me, and I think a lot of other fans, for the past 14 years.
Brian and David have rarely  been with the touring act since the 60's. 

Why should Mike have to explain it at all, he told the truth. I think what you guys meant to say is why have Brian and Al NOT explained this, why did they allow and even encourage the untruth to stand?

Would Al want that, though? I think there might be an equal reluctance from both Al and Mike to share that spotlight. And while Mike is doing his part of the show, where would that leave Al's original songs which he wants to play live for his fans? It may be too much of a sacrifice for both of them to play the smaller theaters and have to share the billing with different goals for the show.

Great piece by Mike, however I really think if he and Al have buried the hatchet then Al should be reinstated as a permanent Beach Boy ASAP.

[sigh]

As expected, one of the leading Brianistas has elected not to understand on purpose. Truly, you can't make someone understand something they don't want to.

Because they want the reunion lineup to persist. Even in this lovely piece, Mike doesn't quite commit to that.

This was a fantastic read.  Good for Mike for writing that.  It needed to be said.  It would've been a little easier to swallow if the first press release announcing the end of the reunion was delivered in this same tone---then we wouldn't have had such a firestorm of crap rain on him.  But anyway, hopefully the storms have passed and we can move on.

Great pic of the Loves:
(http://www.trbimg.com/img-506e4a9d/turbine/la-et-ms-mike-love-beach-boys-on-brian-wilson--001/600)

Even the most hardend Mike critic should give the Devil his due. Check out in the accompanying photo the paradise Mike calls home that he gets to share with his beautiful wife - yet the guy chooses to go out 180 days of the year at 71 to perform Beach Boys songs to their fans. That's dedication and showing a deep love and respect for the music they all helped create.

Oh c'mon, let's not go that far. It's also ego gratification, excitement, $$$, recognition, and something to do. It isn't a damn public service he does out of the goodness of his heart!

What does that have to do with allowing an untruth to stand?

Time to bust another myth - The Beach Boys, individually or solo, have never, ever played 180 shows a year. Maybe 135, tops, and that was several decades ago.

Because the untruth furthers their agenda. It was an unexpected opportunity to make their case in public.

Thanks, AGD. Not even Dylan manages those kinds of numbers these days.

You're saying they put an agenda ahead of the truth? So why are we not pitching a bitch about that?

I think Mike listened to much of our work here in composing this lovely piece.  The only unanswered question for me (and the professor is quite seriously moved and gratified by this excellent essay my Mike, whom I love) is the exact future: Mike mentioned no more full-band shows and did not specify that the album is a BB album.

thoughts on this?

But this is a major development today, and it will be the foundation of the new reunion if I am correct.

I have no doubt that all the above are deciding factors in Mike doing what he does - it still doesn't make his dedication and commitment any less noteworthy.

Revisional bullsh*t that's what it is. "With it, I've felt a great responsibility to uphold, honor and further our legacy." Once again, he's talking out of his hat. Let's see, he let Al go years ago, an original member with the best voice in the group-that certainly upholds the legacy of the group, especially to the fans, but it's honorable to have imposters sing those songs in place of Al or David. He tours, because of some legal agreement, as The Beach Boys which is an out and out lie. He acts like a complete baboon on stage, and relishes in suing bandmates and right up there is his constant self congratulatory attitude. Too little too late Myke-you worked hard over the years to build your reputation as a complete hypocritical schmuck-why don't you go home and buy your kid an ice cream cone instead of jamming more money in your wallet.

OSD, remember: Mike can no more let Al go from the Beach Boys then Al can let Mike or Brian go from the Beach Boys.

I agree with the professor.  But while I believe this piece does a fantastic job for putting out fires, I don't think it'd be the best place to also drop hints on future plans when they are currently uncertain.  The cherry on top would've been, yes, saying that we should expect more reunion projects in the future--but why say something that he doesn't know for sure will be delivered on?  Mike seems to be more sure when contracts have been signed and set, rather than openly speculating with his fans.  

Has he actually been quoted as saying he would love to work on this proposed rock n roll album that Brian seems to want to do? The biggest issue I am having with the collective BBs at the moment is the uncertainty about this proposed next project. It'd be nice if it could be a new BBs album, but I kinda get the feeling Brian is just going to continue as before churning out solo albums until he has no energy left.

The deification of Mike Love continues.....

This article reeks of ghost writing, Mike would never have time to write something like this while touring all the time.

As we learned from the Howard Stern interview, Mike is an ass man..

Looking at that he must be a very happy man  :smokin

The Bloo board is a Strange World after all.  I don't even go there any more.

During the 10-hour flight across Atlantic:

1. Read recent 'sacking' articles...

2. Pitch a small fit...

3. Sit down with your publicist and draft a response...

4. Approve publicists polished version of what you dictated to him.

Admit it, you're a closet Blooie, aren't you ?  :-D

..... and just in from Area 51..........................  >:D

It's outrageous that posters on brianwilson.com are Brianistas, I tell you! I would think they would be 100% supportive of Mike Love-based schemes that leave their hero disappointed.

I say we raise a far more militant Al Jardine faction to balance out the sides... Jardinista sounds a lot more dangerous, anyway.

That is ghostwriting. I ain't no bloo, I'm not a suck up to Mike Love and call history as it went. Mike has reinvented history the last few years. Acting like he is Brian's number one collaborator when Brian had Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Bob Norburg, Tony Asher, and Van Dyke Parks to write songs.

Yes, Justin is correct: this is the news we have to wait and hope for--news of a new album; there is always something. . . .

Et tu, Brute?

Some people have no common sense, or they don't use it before they post. ;)

let's create a band of Mikenistas and invade the Bloo board!

 :lol

That why the guys have Publicists. You think Brian writes all of his replies too? Come on.

Not actually done a count, but I think the credit Wilson/Love is far and away the most common in the BB catalog.

:lol

Only if we get to be called Lovelies. and hats. I want a hat, otherwise I'm sticking with the Jardine camp.

"I don't know what I want, but I want it now!" - Sir Henry Rawlinson

I think the problem is what you are claiming is history is actually the revision.

Where does the Jardine camp congregate?

Aljardine.com?  

We all get personalized instructions from the little Al Jardine that lives in our heads. Right, guys?

Uh, guys?

Stop looking at me like that.

I vote for turbans.

AGD, some of those lawsuit credits were sketchy and you know it.

 :lol :lol

The whole statement is indeed much more elegant than the press release, that I appreciate. But it indeed doesn't really change much of the basic assertions that have been put forth in at least the discussions/debates I've been reading in the past weeks. Some interesting points about Mike's piece:

Mike doesn't refute and in fact confirms that Brian and Al wanted to do more live shows, and Mike did not. I know a few people were still doubting this, despite Jon Stebbins mentioning it.

This part of Mike's statement is interesting:

It is not feasible, both logistically and economically, for the 50th anniversary tour to play these markets. It’s vitally important for the smaller markets to experience our live shows, as this is how we’ve maintained a loyal fan base for 50 years. You can’t sustain a fan base on a great catalog alone. You must take your music directly to the people.

I would agree that these venues would not sustain the large 50th tour. But the rest of this is nonsense in my opinion. The Beach Boys CAN stand on their catalog alone, certainly at this point. I would agree that having a touring BB's does keep the name alive and whatnot, but that doesn't mean 100+ shows every year. If the BB's play Dallas and don't play Waco, if they play New Orleans but don't play Biloxi, their fan base will be just fine.

Many other bands, of less stature, sales, fame, etc. than the Beach Boys, sustain nice fan bases with MUCH less touring, sometimes with several years between touring.

Mike is framing the "small market" gigs as some sort of altruistic venture for fans. I don't believe it. It's a nice fringe benefit, but he plays the gigs because he makes money. I applaud Mike's new statement as it is much more eloquent. But I wish he would have also been honest and also stated that profit is a motive in this as well. He admitted this in past interviews, including the one from the 90's where he literally said he hears the ringing of a cash register when he plays the old hits.

I remember almost every issue of Goldmine I'd get, about 20 years ago or so, I'd flip back to the classifieds, look for new Beach Boys-Beatles-Monkees listings, and for a lot of issues the only BBs ad would be for the Mike Love Fan Club.

I never mailed anything in, but I always wondered what the perks would be if you joined. I'd expect at least a hat of some kind, depending on the club's dues.

Seriously, I don't read that board, ever. I stopped reading it in probably 2000 or so. Why does it matter what they say? Why has that board become this new sort of straw man representing anti-Mike sentiment? The people on this board that take issue with Mike seem to do so largely with well thought-out logic (as do most of those who support Mike's positions more), not with the weird disposition of the people on some other board.

The fact that he mentioned that it was not economically feasible, means that there is less income to be made.  

I'm a member of the Mike Love fan club. You get a membership card, and, up until a year or two ago, they would send out a newletter every few months with tour dates and Mike Love news items and the like. But the internet sort of made the newsletter worthless, the information would be months out of date and therefore "old news" by the time it arrived in the mail.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Yes, the Al issue has not been addressed for some time. While Al seemed to be clear about not saying flattering things about Mike's band in the first several years after Carl's death, it hasn't seemed to be a very subtle pining from Al in more recent years to be in the BB's. I think he highly prefers to have the full reunion lineup, but nobody including Al or Mike has addressed having Al in the current band.

I appreciate that Mike clears up the idea that the big reunion tour is too expensive to do smaller markets. But he still seems to couch it in an all-or-nothing ideal that it's either the huge 50th reunion operation in large venues and cities, or his Mike/Bruce lineup. What about having Al and/or David in the band? What about taking a year or two off from longer tours with smaller venues and play big venues that promoters are offering?

Exactly. I think Mike is to some degree hiding behind this defence that implies he is touring to bring his tour to small markets, and Brian, Al, and David just want to play big cities. First of all, I think some compromise can be had on this issue. More importantly, I disagree with the premise that numerous small markets have to played every year to keep the fan base going. That's ridiculous.

If Mike gets the majority of BRI to vote for him to have an exclusive license, and Al disagrees because he wants to be in the touring Beach Boys, then that is Mike (and the other voters) keeping Al from being in "The Beach Boys." It may not be "letting go" or "firing", but certainly in the past Mike was happy with the license situation in which he was in the band and Al was not in the band, and Al did not like this particular license situation.

I think we keep forgetting that the Reunion was the exception and not the rule. "The Beach Boys" have gone back to what they have been for the last 15 years. The Reunion was the separate agreement, not Mike's licensing of the name.

It has been that way for 14 years, but I don't think the state of the band for the previous 14 years matters in light of this year's developments.

True, I suppose. But he tries very hard to totally soften this by suggesting the smaller gigs are about bringing music to fans as opposed to making money. If the next sentence had been "These smaller markets are vital, because I can make more money", then that would make sense and be 100% truthful.

And exactly how, pray, did he 'get' Brian (and by 'Brian' of course, we mean Melinda) & Carl's estate to side with him ? Hearts & flowers ? A hissy fit ? Threats ? The vote for the so-called 'Love license' was free and based on the merits of the terms thereof. Either party could have voted against or abstained. Fact is, they didn't.

Yes, which is why I've always said Brian and Carl's estate deserve the blame, *if* one feels blame is to be had, for siding with Mike over Al on that issue.

Seperately, it is worth pointing out that there was leverage allegedly being asserted when those votes took place. They could have voted anyway they wanted, but I've heard that Brian's vote for Mike back then to have the exclusive license had to do with more than simply wanting profits from Mike's tours or liking Mike's license proposal more than Al's.

Of course it matters, they signed a separate agreement to do the reunion tour. A one off agreement for 50 shows that had to be amended to add 25 more. Notice "Argeement", "Amendments", in other words, contracts.

My favourite part is where Mike misspells Audree :lol

Things were different in 1998, its time for the reunited group to stay and this divided group crap to end. Who honestly only wants to see the M&B band tour smaller venues, its time for the BBs name to have full meaning again. A late career rebirth is rare and the full BBs were doing it.

You mean like Brian wanted Mike to have the license and didn't want Al to have the license?

Let's see what happens when these contractually obligated previously committed shows are over. Some of you might be very pleasantly surprised by what may happen after...

This is what I've been thinking for several days now...I'd love an announcement of a tour and album sometime in the spring of 2013.  It'd be like the happy, joyous feeling of last winter's reunion announcements all over again :)

It's all manufactured publicity.  People who weren't fans and didn't care about the Beach Boys have now read all about the reunion this past summer, the band's history, and the fact that Mike supposedly fired the rest of the band.  I'm not sure he would have gotten a self-authored (or partly self-authored, at least) piece in a major newspaper like the LA Times, complete with his byline, without that kind of attention.  Which will get more worldwide publicity.  So, next reunion tour will be bigger venues, more cities, higher ticket prices.  Or so they hope.

Yup

"I sang on "Pet Sounds," I wrote songs for the album and I even named it."

Though this may be true, I think to the average reader it leads them to think he wrote more than he did.
To the best of my knowledge, Mike contributed lyrics to 3 songs on the, and two (WIBN and IKTAA) were already near completion.
I might not be giving Love enough credit, but someting like "I contributed lyrics to some songs on the album" might have been more appropriate.
How's that for nitpicking?

Good job, nitpicking, there. :)

Good move by Mike and hopefully all these blinded and - excuse me - dumb writers and Brianistas will finally understand that this was always the way it was gonna be and that all the fuss was only made by statements from Brian and Al that were totally taken out of context.
I don't like the idea of Mike&Bruce touring under that name since the only way The Beach Boys can exist these days is like the reunion tour (Brian, Al and David wouldn't deserve that name either) but this is business. Contracts were signed way before the reunion and no one can blame Mike for not breaking them.

Mike having toured that way for the past 14 years doesn't preclude them from doing 10, 50, 100, or 1,000 more reunion shows, as evidenced by the reunion tour agreement they signed. So, to me, stating that it's going back to the way it was for 14 years doesn't mean anything in terms of whether more reunion shows could or should happen.

I hope you both are right. I fear otherwise, only because we've seen supposedly an April 2013 booking which certainly doesn't look like a "reunion" booking. Obviously, they could still start a reunion tour in May or June, etc.

If an "exclusive" license is what was ultimately voted on, then that would by its definition preclude Al from any such license. As I've heard it, and apologies for being cryptic, Brian voting for Mike to have that license had nothing to do with Al. Brian may well have voted for Mike to have an exclusive license even if there had been no other factor than choosing who he liked more, I dunno. But Brian had an extra incentive to vote the way he did due to additional leverage that was allegedly weighing against him. None of that matters anymore, of course.

True, no one said they couldn't. Just not for these shows here in 2012 that were already booked pre-reunion.

This is one of my main feelings in all of this. Things have changed. This continued assertion that "we've been doing this for 14 years this way" means it should go back to that ignores the fact that the reunion was may more successful than anybody, including apparently some or all of the band, thought it would.

As I've said before, in a strange way I have to give Mike kudos for doing the reunion knowing (or he should have known anyway) that his own "version" of the band would be viewed with different eyes by fans and the masses and media if or when the reunion ended and he went back to his band.

We don't know Mike personally, but it seems he often has to quantify success with numbers, either sales, or chart placement, or placement on some sort of poll, or revenue, or something along those lines, as opposed to just his own gut feeling or purely reviews. This is why he always has to remind us about how the BB's are big on oldies radio, or beat the Beatles in the NME poll, and why he never will just actively, unprompted tell you that "Let Us Go On This Way" or something is an awesome song. I personally believe this is a big part of why the reunion is not continuing. For all the amazing press and reviews it got, it probably made him less money, and it appears that part of the way his brain is wired tells him that that is not as successful. This is the more kind interpretation, as opposed to it being pure, rolling-around-in-piles-of-money-and-gold-jewelry greed.

You mean something nefarious like blackmail or death threat or Brian's wife didn't want Al to have the license.

If it were true that there was that level of secret leverage why did Brian go along with taking back Mike's exclusive license to try to give Al a license of his own?

I think this is part of where Mike's new statement is maybe technically correct, but misses what is probably really going on. He mentions that Brian and Al should not have been surprised about non-reunion shows. I think what Brian and Al were maybe surprised by was not announcement of some October dates, but a perceived more definitive statement that indicated only non-reunion shows for the foreseeable future. Also, I think Brian and Al's statements were meant more to build public momentum towards helping Mike realize he should do more reunion stuff.

Time will tell us for sure, but I don't think all of this is down to Mike having a few October gigs. He has made it pretty clear that his own version of the band is now what we'll get unless or until we hear otherwise. That's different than just having to do a few pre-arranged October gigs.

I'm talking about the later, presumably ultimate vote that ended with Mike having the exclusive license he has today. At some point, he was granted that, and presumably/supposedly/allegedly, Al did not vote in favor of it.

And no, I'm not saying nor have I ever said there were neferious death threats or anything along those lines.

Well, what is Mike supposed to say if he or the other members have no idea yet whether they are going to again next year. We have to be realistic here. Let him and the band address one issue at a time.

So Brian did vote originally without pressure or leverage to give Mike an exclusive license? But it took pressure/leverage to make Brian vote the same way again after Al had threatened to sue BRI and tried to renegoiate the terms and operate without a license? I must not be following.

Keep in mind that for a more permanent reunion, there may be some legal and/or contractual details to be sorted out...

You can bet your sweet bippy there will be. ;)

Isn't it sad that this cool, joyful reunion tour and album ends with this terrible discussions? The boys had a great time touring and certainly healing some wounds and now they are faced with this crap. Do people really think Mike would wanna do another Beach Boys tour when he gets slagged off even for that?

The mere fact that Myke Luhv can't write decent lyrics is proof positive that he did not write this article-guarantee he scratched a few lines down, gave it to his servant and told him to write something up. By the way. the only Blooey here is the AGDster-he posts over there all the time and he ain't too well liked either. :lol :lol :lol

And all that for 14,50 $ ?  ;D

Who wrote the lyrics to 'Warmth of the Sun', 'Please Let Me Wonder', 'She Knows Me Too Well', 'All I Wanna Do', ect.? You're right, they weren't 'decent', they were pretty damn good.


' AGDsterhe ' ?! What the blue gravy f*** is that supposed to be? I know some kind of play on AGD's name, but quite frankly I don't get it.

That's not all you don't get. Read it again genius.

Thank you OSD for providing such a nuanced and varied point of view  :p

Okay smartass, I did read it again. Better use of the space bar and proper punctuation may have helped, genius.

And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it.  "Say goodnight, Dick."  "Goodnight, Dick." (Rowan and Martin, for the young folk here.)

Without being the same room, no one can definitively state whether Mike wrote all of his essay or whether it was composed for him. I'd tend to guess that he wrote a rough draft, had a publicist look it over and tweak it, and Mike signed off on it. Either way, it's diplomatic and a rather clear summary.

Having said that, the real unanswered question is why the quotes of Brian and Al prior to the London shows? Who knows. That to me is the real riddle.

This band has long operated as Beach Boys Inc. (or Brother Recordings Inc.) and any career decision has to be filtered through a series of lawyered gatekeepers. Unfortunate. I get the feeling that Mike is not averse to future recording/touring but saying something definite would back everyone into a corner prior to the perimeters being worked out. The sooner they can commit to ONE more album and ONE more 20-30 date summer tour, the better we'll all feel. And if they realize (by the end of 2012) that that isn't gonna happen, then say it - so we can get on with our lives (and Brian can record a rawk and roll rekid with his band). 

Not very observant, are we ? I deleted my Bloo profile when the "sacking" nonsense blew up and when even for the Bloo, the posts there were ridiculous. As for not being well liked 'over there', well, one, don't care and two, I'm liked well enough in the right quarters.  ::)

Andrew, you are the Willy Loman of the Beach Boys world.  ;)

That obviously doesn't include here  :lol

wavesoflove.org/keepitcleanwithaljardinemessageboard

Fairly thin skinned aren't we there? It's a friggin' message board just like it is here. You deleted yourself because you don't agree with others opinions?? Really??  Yeah, you suck up to Myke and Bruce just enough to get free tix to their bore-as* oldies show. :lol

I'd love to have a regular "Mike Love Sets The Record Straight" podcast or series after school specials. He could scare people straight and stuff.

You know, really "rap" with the kids. Maybe even turn a chair around and squat over it the wrong way to show how with it he was. Confront teenagers with the truth about his naming Pet Sounds.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GgGhh6-Y0Ow/TuvFpZ4-LiI/AAAAAAAAAI4/hhNjEprqeko/s1600/beyondscared2.jpg)

"I had... no idea..."

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Male egoooo won't eveeeer quiiiit

I think OSD is actually Bruce who's taken some extra $$$$ to stir up a virulent strain of Mike-Lovers!!!!!

I think even OSD would admit that it'd be a plausible theory. That Johnston is a crafty one!

Beach Boys' Mike Love explains that he didn't fire Brian Wilson, still sucks

By Sean O'Neal October 5, 2012

Sensing that the news of founding members Brian Wilson and Al Jardine being dumped in favor of returning Beach Boys to its more recently established, more easily dominated by Mike Love lineup had inspired more Mike Love hate than usual, Mike Love put on his explainer cap—fitting it over his nested stack of other caps—and addressed the controversy in a typically longwinded letter to the L.A. Times. Not surprisingly, Love insists he did nothing wrong by breaking off from Wilson and Jardine again, saying that the decision was made only because "it is not feasible, both logistically and economically" for the reunited original Beach Boys lineup to play many of the smaller-market dates that Love insists are "vitally important" for keeping the Beach Boys' name alive by allowing Mike Love to play under it and collect all of its associated money and attention for himself. Also, he said a lot of stuff like this:

I did not fire Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys. I cannot fire Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys. I am not his employer. I do not have such authority. And even if I did, I would never fire Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys. I love Brian Wilson. We are partners. He’s my cousin by birth and my brother in music. We grew up together. We sang Everly Brothers’ songs together at Aunt Audrey’s piano. We played football together. We formed a band together. We wrote songs together that have been woven into the fabric of this nation. Our songs are in the DNA of America. Our imagery of the coast, surfing, cars and teenage freedom helped make our country the envy of the world.

Ugh, stop it. Anyway, the rest of the letter goes on and on like that and is just as awful. Keep it under your hats, Mike Love.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/beach-boys-mike-love-explains-that-he-didnt-fire-b,86302/

Yes, I can attest to that.

Mike is NEVER happy enough so the Mike and Bruce show goes on.....

Oh! So a smarmy, bearded, hipster writer for A.V club doesn't like Mike Love?

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!!!

Ok Surfirder. If you are going to continue to bring that up without telling us exactly what the hell happened that day, I feel it is my duty to tell you that... it is really annoying.  >:D

Look for it to be a bombshell footnote in Heroes & Villains 2: Heroes & Villains-ier

For the people who just plain dislike Mike Love, there is nothing he could ever say or do that will ever change their view. I think for most reasonable people, they will take it in the spirit it was given. Myself, I don't expect to hear anything of any consequence until after the new year.

It does indeed sound like things are up in the air. But we may not be looking at a 50/50 situation here in terms of whether the reunion will continue. I think perhaps part of the disconnect among the band members may have stemmed from Brian and/or Al feeling it was kind of 50/50 at least during the tour, or "let's wait and see", while Mike's statement doesn't read like a "maybe/maybe not", it basically reads as though things are going back to the way they were, period. The only way in which his statement was not totally unequivocal in terms of his permanently going back to his own band is if you feel that not specifically stating "the reunion lineup will never come together again" constitutes any sort of 50/50, "we're just not sure" situation. I don't read it that way, and it sounds like Al and Brian didn't read it that way.

you gotta admit the "nested stack of other caps" line is pretty funny. he's just calling Mike on his bullsh!t is all. more than can be said for a lot of folks up in here.

Mike's piece is self-congratulatory, weeks late, and full of crap. He wrote songs for Pet Sounds? The early songs were his? REALLY?!!

he can't even spell his Aunt Audree's name right.


But Brian still wants to be in the touring band. And you issued a press release saying that he's no longer a touring member and continue to book more shows without him. That's a funny partnership.


the fact is that Brian, Al, and Dave still want to be in the touring band and Mike is denying them that right. Nobody wants to see the Mike & Bruce band when they could be seeing the entire surviving lineup. Mike is trying really hard to say the right things here and not look like a jerk, but it's what he's not saying that is most telling.

Wish I could. Maybe Mikeʻs wife should give me a call.

Gosh, if you canʻt  figure it out with all my little hints, I donʻt know what to say.

As I said, my assumption is that Brian may well have voted in Mike's favor even without any leverage being used. But the leverage, in this reported/alleged scenario, may have precluded any chance swaying the vote a different way.

In any event, I also feel that the situation is not the same now, so it doesn't matter much. Al and Mike are no longer on the outs the way they were in 1998. It's frustrating now, because back in 1998 it at least functionally made some sense for Al and Mike to not tour together since there was some sort of falling out at that time. That Al was not in Mike's band may have been a self-fulfilling sort of thing (by that, I mean that Al is edged out, then they have a falling out, and then of course it's even less feasible for them to play together), but it made sense in 1998 or 1999 that these guys had to be apart. Same thing with Brian, he seemed to have next to zero interest in playing with Mike and the Beach Boys in general at that time.

But now there is even less reason for them to be apart, because they established that they can play together and do it well, and have a desire to continue. That's why this "this is how it's been for 14 years business" doesn't make any sense.

:lol

Good one ^_^

Great article that makes a lot of sense. Mike has done some dumb things over the years to be sure, he did nothing wrong here whatsoever.

$17.50

Honestly I'm genuinely not sure how you can possibly believe that the last 14years isn't relevant.  Over that time Mike has developed a very successful business out of the touring band and has played with band members who he seems to get on well with. It's clear that Mike enjoys that lifestyle.

It's nice that Mike complimented Al's singing but he did that in the Goldmine interview way back.  It doesn't mean that suddenly all of their issues have disappeared. The band members agreed to put their differences aside for 1 tour but. I think recent events have shown that those differences haven't disappeared.

The reunion was a business decision( as Mike says partly down to the record company). Bringing Al back into the touring band wouldn't make much business sense for Mike as for 14 years they have sold tickets without him. I think it's fairly obvious why Mike would prefer to have Christian on rhythm guitar. Do we honestly believe that Al could tour with Mike in the 'keep the costs down ' mode and not complain?

Oh believe me, I know adding Al to his band would not make any business sense for Mike whatsoever. That's not disputed. I think what some fail to acknowledge is that in a possible scenario where Al would want to join, and Mike was not interested in sharing profits, that would make Mike, in some fans eyes, as a total d**k.

I would also disagree with the idea that Mike "developed" a successful business out of the touring band in the last 14 years. He certainly maintained it, and exploited it, but it was an already-successful, already-established touring enterprise many, many years ago. That enterprise was developed by not only Mike, but also Carl, Al, and during their tenures Dennis and Bruce as well, and to some extend David and Brian as well.

Mike pays for the right to use the name, because the name is what sells the band. I would imagine even Mike would agree with this. His new statement, while eloquent, has a slight tone as if to say he's still there fronting the band because nobody else will step up to do it. That may have been partially or largely correct at various points in the past, but now all the guys are willing to work together with Mike.

Come on, the initial press release was wrong in every way possible

I was there with Mike in July and his next Mike/Bruce tour was booked.  Still donʻt like the guy.

Yup-great pic of the Luhvs with all the money. Him, he can't get enough and her waitin' for him to check out  so the real fun, fun, fun can begin. Looks like she's standing there posing with her sugar daddy or her pop-pop. I'm so convinced, though, that she really luhvs him for the wonderful person he is and not the muhney. For sure. ::)

I don't think that Al joining the M& B band was ever a realistic option. Mike spent most of the 90s trying to kick Al out of the band which is why David Marks was hired. Al has understandably said insulting things about Mike (and Jackie) since and I've never heard him say that he wants to play 100 shows on the county fair circuit with M&B. Again, I can't see Al being happy with the 'keeping the costs down ' or the setlists. It would be a completely different proposition to the reunion tour.  As it would probably make touring less pleasurable for Mike  and Bruce and it would be a bad business move it is naive to think it could happen.

So, so perfectly stated. You nailed it.


lolololol, if only it really existed  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Hmm.. He must have groped her.

That is certainly within reason

The C50 was announced Dec 16. This gave M&B all 2011 to do their gigs so I would expect the similar this time but later. Perhaps they can go for it until early 2013 before an announcement that Brian is ready to record in the spring and perhaps tour in the summer.

Also it does not distract for any live album to come, and the DVD Nov 20.

Guess we will see.

That was quite classy, but i still don't understand why there has to be such rules and all about the line up and all.

Also i don't get it when he says how much it is important for him to be able to take the Beach Boys around the world at any places possible so that any kind of people, rich or not, could get to see them.. but then, didn't he said that he didn't want the band to end up like Eagles, selling tickets for just 5 dollars? i know he was talking about the "reunion tour" when he said that, but.. what's the difference? why can't he keep the guys and keep on touring and making albums, and let anyone make solo albums when they feel like? and i'm no Mike Love hater, i can understand what he means and it is well said, and i'm sure his show with Bruce is a great performance and some good setlists, but really, isn't it better for everyone, including the band to stick together, especially after all the beautiful people that we've lost? (Yes, Carl and Dennis..) look at Kiss, aren't they doing great? i heard they have like a giant book (really, it's freaking big) coming out, another new album, kiss cruise, and all.. so yeah, aren't The Beach Boys the most popular american band? i'm not asking them to do such things (tho there is a special SMiLE boxset edition with a surfboard that is like, around 2000? i don't know) just keep on touring and making music together really, everyone would be just happy i guess,i don't see the big issue about it.

Comments after reading the last 5 plus pages since the afternoon:
 - Being in a smaller (but not small) market, I do appreciate that M&B perform in or near our locale every year (or at least every other year). A summer without seeing a BB related performance (we were fortunate to have the Reunion Tour stop) is almost depressing. Brian's group when touring does not stop close by (normally we have to travel somewht to see him). So I appreciate M&B playing the smaller venues.
 - Regarding Mike's article, it is true that those who are "anti Mike" won't be impressed and continue to be cynical; those more open minded will at least appreciate the effort.
 - I appreciate the insight and commentary and balanced perspective that AGD offers. As for OSD's posts...well I'll just go by the saying that "if you don't have anything good to say about someone, just don't say anything" , so I won't say anything here but also understand that we do have freedom of speech, even on message boards.
 - In today's world, business requires contracts and agreements - and whether we like it or not, R&R is a business. So, the agreements, contracts, amendments etc. are a necessity.
 - Notwithstanding all the commentary here, on the Bloo and elsewhere, I do think that there is more to follow after the success of the Tour - by way of more new music and perhaps another tour down the road.

You don't know Jacqui Love and you're nothing but a d eye cee kay for what you wrote.  What are you, eight years old?  Get over your Brian Wilson crush.  It's making you mean.
 

I really enjoyed Mike's statements. Made me get a bit misty at the end.

I know that the BB-camp is an impatient one, but do we really want the C50 lineup going on tour again next summer? I'm not saying it's going to dilute the name, but the shows already weren't selling out 100%, and going on tour seven months after this one ended isn't good business. "Old" bands don't tour that way, oldies bands do.

Personally, I think it makes perfect sense what is happening. Mike gets to keep making money, Brian gets to keep doing what he does, Al gets to keep living in Big Sur and David gets left out... again. Why did Brian and Al say what they did before the London shows? Because half the stuff Brian says doesn't make any sense and he answers in whatever way is easiest at the time. He's been doing that for years. Why did Al say that? Because Al doesn't know how to flush airplane toilets and he forgets the first verse to Then I Kissed Her and because he's 70 years old... oh and because he doesn't like Mike Love.

There's no way that Brian or Al would actually WANT to do the tour the Mike and Bruce had planned. They're not going to want to do 100 dates a year, they're not going to want to borrow amps and drums and tour as a 10 piece group. So is it selfish for Mike to carry on HIS version of the Beach Boys when that's not what all 2, 3, 4, 5 members want? Sure, but he's also been doing this for 50 years and it's his source of spending income. And yeah, sure, Mike could probably live off what he has for the rest of his life without any problems, but he might also have to sell a couple houses or cars, or not save as much money for his children. Mike wasn't very good at pumping gas, not sure if he can go back to that gig.

Would it be nice for David to join the M+B shows? Sure, but maybe David doesn't want to tour 100 times a year. Would it be nice to have the ONLY Beach Boys group be the C50 group? Yes, but there's 20+ people that have to travel along and they all have lives that aren't "The Beach Boys."

This way, Mike gets to keep doing what he does, which does not dilute the reunited Beach Boys group name and maybe, they can all reform again in a year and a half if they're all still willing.

Obviously we would all want this group to get together again in April and do this all over again, but Brian and Al aren't built like Mike and Bruce and frankly, I'm not sure the Brian band members are either. I've never been the biggest Mike Love fan, but I at least understand where he's coming from.

The shame is that Mike's statement should have put paid to most of this crap but some are turning it on its head and flogging more mud at the guy. Seems that's the way it goes in Beach Boysville.


Suspect that short term the M&B show might brig in the dough but longer term the C50 shows will ignite a healthy revitalisation of catalogue sales that will have Mike's royalty cheques pumped up to the max again. Already two compilations and 12 remasters on the street, and a Blu-ray/DVD.that should ease the pressure of the need to tour but hey, maybe he enjoys the touring.

Salient point arising from the LA Times piece: Mike has made several unequivocal statements concerning the current farrago that Brian, Alan and/or BRI can deny or challenge if they're not true. We'll see, but 24 hours later, I hear only silence. Mike is undeniably a litigious individual, and I cannot believe he'd make such a mistake, just as I cannot believe that BRI shareholders Brian Wilson and Alan Jardine were not informed of Mike's intention to tour post-C50 by the company that handles these gigs. That would be Brother Records Inc. I strongly suspect some behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

People are just taking this whole situation out of hand, with a reputation that Mike Love has, you know it's going to be hell. The media were probably just looking for a way to just make his reputation even worse and a lot of the fans brought it, even though a lot of them knew already he was going to tour with Bruce as a duo, I think the reason there doing it this early is because there was so much hype with this 50th tour it might have gotten out of hand and Mike just wanted to play in small venues, who knows? I'm just guessing lol

Coming 6 pages late to this thread but I can see him quoting those lyrics. People might question whether Mike is always genuine but in interviews he sometimes puts his hand on his heart and says poetic things about Brian and the Beach Boys.

Good article, regardless of whether Mike penned it or had the help of a publicist. He puts his view on the tour 'confusion' - which is backed up by the available facts - across succinctly.

If we step back just a little...

A few months ago nobody knew how good the tour would be. There were worries Brian or someone else might bail out part way through, that musically it wouldn't work, that there would be arguments and tensions ripping it apart. It could have been a horrendous train wreck. In fact the performances and (on the face of it) bonds between all the guys got stronger as the tour progressed. The tour was extended. As Mike says, the original plan was to end the tour, have a month or so's gap, and for everyone to go back to their previous existences.

Having experiecned this wonderful tour, many of us hope for more Beach Boys music and live shows with *all* the guys...but take that step back to a few months ago...and enjoy what we've had.

From wiki:
Love has been married five times -[citation needed]

    Francie StMartin (1960? - ?), divorced, one child
    Suzanne Belcher (October 14, 1965 – 1969), divorced, two children
    Tamara Fitch (October 18, 1971 – 1974) divorced, one child
    Catherine Linda "Cathy" Martinez (September 17, 1981 – July 30, 1984) divorced, one child
    Jacqueline Piesen (1994 - current), one child.


well...this was surprising to me. I knew Mike had an illigitimate child in '64 or so, but to be married 5 times? most of these lasting less than 5 years?
Clearly the new one is there for the money. There are very few ppl who can love someone with such a botch personal history. It's like the woman who recently divorced Tom Cruise, how could she not know something was wrong with him after two failed marriages? plus it is widely known Tom Cruise is a crazy ass motherf***er. I would think this woman, given his very prominent seniority over her, is there for the money. A pure gold digger.

Sorry for those off-topic remarks.
When it comes to the message he sent, I agree that it was warm and seemingly heartfelt, but as others have pointed out, many of his points are self-contradicting. He talks about  not firing Brian, but that's what he really did. Oh well, we'll see what happens in the next year or two.

That's inaccurate - Mike had two girls with Frances, and has two children with the current Mrs. Love. Further, the paternity of the child from the Martinez marriage is disputed.

The marriage dates, children's birthdays and names and wives birthdays for all the band are listed in the timeline at 10452.

To inject a note of humour -

after the remarks on 'firing Brian' (or not), I thought about a brilliant piece of satire done here, on Hitler being fired by his own close crew.

Does anyone know who, when did this, and where it can be located?

It totally fits for Mike to quote a song. He always does that. In fact it's hard to find interviews, etc. where he doesn't. Although normally he uses "Do it again" "Wouldn't it be nice" "Fun, fun, fun" or "Good vibraions", so the quoting is totally his style. And in this case using lyrics to "Summer's gone" is absolutely fitting for what he intended.
I'd still like to know about the inclusion of the song in the shows, though. I could imagine Mike being a little unsure of including a never before played song just for the last two concerts. But I don't know about that "Brian having to beg Mike". To me it seems that in the end it all came down to what Brian wanted anyway, e.g. "Add some music" "Marcella" and so on.

BTW I think "Summer's gone" as the very last song worked even better than doing it in the middle of the set.

"The new one"?! They've been married eighteen years!
Given that you don't know either of the Loves, it's frankly disgusting that you'd throw personal abuse like that about. At least with Mike we all *think* we know him, given his public profile, but *all* you know about Jacqui Love is that she is married to Mike Love and younger than him.

For all I know she may be a 'pure gold digger', but people should be given the benefit of doubt, and frankly I would expect anyone who had married for the money to have divorced him much earlier and got a large alimony payment.

Remember, Dennis was married six times -- and one of those was to someone he'd already divorced once! -- and no-one questions whether his wives loved him.

Yeah, I'm for senseless personal attacks on Mike Love (how do you think I got nearly 5,000 posts) but saying his wife doesn't love him is crossing a line. Like, why bother?

**koff** Five.

Uncalled-for, supercilious remarks on stuff you know sh*t about. Error stressed as fact.

Posts like this make you hate the internet, really.

It's amazing on how people here first talk about how great Mike Loves article is and now getting off topic on Mikes personal life Lol  :lol

That Mike "exploited" the enterprise is ridiculous, in my opinion.  My take is that the band basically imploded after Carl died.  The sense of that can be seen in the Endless Harmony DVD.  Frankly, it takes a certain gift to front a band. It is not for every musician and some struggle with it.   It would not surprise me, for Mike to have written it.  He has an amazing vocabulary, and this is extensive, and very well organized.  He is telling his side.  

Myke's marital history certainly speaks volumns about his personna in and out of the band. I'm thinking the main culprit  that doomed most of those unions was Myke's absence. Most of those women, if not all, knew that he was bedding down with anything that wiggled while on (or off) the road. Secondly, I can imagine the incredible set of rules each one had to adhere to not to mention the constant "fluffing up" of his out of control so very fragile ego. And as we know the same conditions prevaied with his bandmates.

The last few posts in this thread with very few exceptions seem to be nothing more than callous mudslinging from a bunch of people who think they know the band members' personal lives more than the band members do...

Now you remember this: Dennis was an extremely lovable person-a flawed person but extremely well liked by most. Myke Luhv's a prick and not well liked by most, hence the bad press.

Didn`t get the chance to reply to this point before...

Maybe it would have been better if I`d worded it as, Mike has `adapted` the touring band since 1998. He has obviously established good business relationships with new venues and promoters, cut the costs back and built a new band that has steadily improved over time. There was no way that was going to be thrown away lightly and people were naive if they thought it might have been.

On a completely separate topic, there are only two important things that I have heard about Jacqui... The first is that, along with Melinda, she played a big part in the reunion tour coming together and the second is that she had a role to play in Adrian Baker being fired from the band. She has my utmost respect for both.

Attacking Mike's wife is beyond low, it's disgusting.

Agreed

Pretty low to go after anybody's wife. As with most Mike lore [or most band lore?] it usually ends up being untrue, vague or a function of a person's opinion.

Or a Brianista with an axe to grind in the worst possible way.

I think the reason here is clear. Mike has received a few positive comments in this thread so it`s time for a couple of infants here to throw the toys out of the pram.

Agreed...having a beef with Michael is one thing, but attacking his wife is quite another. I know if the same morons who worship at the altar of Brian Wilson were met with similar comments about their own spouses I don't think it would have gone over too well. Double standards are a bitch, aren't they?

Hehe, an altar of Brian. Now there's a scary thought haha. I am a huge fan of BW but the idea of worshipping and altars is quite disturbing lol.

But here's the thing, I am a big fan of Brian and enjoy some of his solo work almost as much as his 60s master works, but that doesn't mean I can't respect Mike; the two aren't mutually exclusive. If anything I was kind of hoping that the 50th, with all the water under the bridge stuff, would put an end to all that horrible anti Mike Love trash talk you see all over the BBs stuff on line. Maybe it would have done too, if not for the lousy press coverage of the return to normality post 50th.

I really liked Mike's article, I thought it was sincere and thoughtfully constructed. I mean, the guy is obviously aware of all the sh*t that's been stirring online trying to cast him as the bad guy, and that must be really really frustrating to a guy who's simply trying to carry on with his business as previously agreed with everyone involved in the 50th. He obviously enjoys touring with his band, and who cares why... that's his business.

I have to hand it to Mike and to the BB; they literalized the metaphor of summer's gone. They gave us all our dreams this summer, and now that it's over, as physically summer itself ends (I had to stuff the comforter for the first time last night as the e"nights grow cold") so did that dream, as if it never were. What an artistic commitment to a large philosophical and poetic conceit.

I am confident that there will be a June, that school will end, that I will cruse around PCH again with the radio turned up all the way: but not today.

The BB in Winter?  announcements of a new album together?  We evidently know nothing, so we move  from GH release, to single release, to dvd, to remastered album,  to youtube video, to sizzle reel. . . . .stepping onto to any secure stone that somehow assures us that the BB are still there and will be back again soon.

I am most anxious for any word that M and B are writing songs together and that the whole band is making the album. What about Dave's Stowaway, Waves of Love, etc.--all those partially finished songs that are waiting for an album?

She was also the band stylist for the entire C50 shebang.

Did a great job there...they looked better than anytime since the early 70s.

If she was responsible for Mike's look at the London shows she deserves a medal..

If was a sight to see. He looked like the true eccentric, egotistical rock star he is.

Here's hoping he never strays from that philosophy

(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/pc/BREAKING+NEWS+Beach+Boys+perform+Royal+Albert+O0z2s8OawPVl.jpg)

Oh, c'mon OSD! Even YOU ought to know how ridiculous you sound! Like Dennis wasn't bedding down with anything that wiggled while on the road??? I'd say for every "chick" on the road Mike scored, Dennis probably scored 5! ...... But according to you, being well liked makes marital infidelity just fine, but if you're bald and not quite so well liked, you're an evil prick??? C'mon, man! You're personifying the typical ugly American hypocrite here.

Ain't nothin' but a LOVE THANG.

I wanna see Mike on tour with The Moodies!!!! He can shake a tambourine at least half as good as Ray Thomas!!! He'd do a good Legend Of A Mind also! A TM lecture before the show and the place would erupt!

There's some video of the band on tour in 1986 with the Moody Blues. There's also a bootleg of Brian jamming with the Moody Blues the same year.

And we could shove Bruce behind a Mellotron!!!

Would've love to hear that boot!!!! Gotta try and track it down.

I hope this time around Mike takes as much time and thought when he writes new lyrics (if it happens at all) as he has with this press statement.

Even the shirt clashes looked good :D

Rocker is right; this is a most comtemplative Mike, meditating on temporarily, the cycles of life and death, the issues of immortality, the vast power of art to transcend death. These issues are implicit in the SG lyrics about having more to say.  But Mike can write about love and loss and hope and Time like no one else in, say, Warmth of the Sun, so any new offerings will demand just such an artistic depth.  I fear now that we will spin our wheels until we hear something more about any new album. I will say that some scorned the professor for hoping for "concrete published information about the status of the band," but we did get some, with whatever ambiguities and uncertainties lingering.

Double standards? Seen plenty of nasty comments about Mel here-didn't see anyone come to either Brian's defence or hers. There's your double standard. Next.

What a f*ckin' sleazeball. The original Las Vegas Louie. You can see the slime oozing all over the faux gold lamet jacket. He'd look more legit with a towel draped over his arm with a tray of cosmopolitans.

OK, OK, we got it. Now, please leave the library and go back home.

Can we all just be happy already?

HUG IT OUT!

In the words of Don Henley, "They say anger is just love disappointed."

Gotta say, the Old Dude is right on here.

Last time I checked, a lot of people came to their defense, so...

Can we just re-name this thread OSD SETS THE RECORD STRAIGHT and move on?

My guess is OSD lives with his mom and has a very small dick. Would explain pretty much everything.

That was uncalled for...

Certainly makes the case for a banhammer a bit more challenging...

Damn  :o!!

Didn't AGD basically just describe every single person on a messageboard??

There goes the AGDster thinkin' about dicks again and now it's mine. Thank you sweetie but, no thanks-always knew you were a little light in the loafers but not that far outta the closet.

Why did I have the feeling last April that by Fall there would be all kinds of nasty postings on this forum?

Only a matter of time before this turns into another fight on here lol
Pretty much yes

Well...there's a homophobic remark if I ever saw one.

To show that I can agree with everyone, given the circumstances, I definitely agree with you there.

When all else fails..imply they have a small dick

  People arguing? That happens. We're all adults here, although some of us do not know how to act like it. Homophobic remarks, along with racist and other forms of hate speech will not be tolerated here.

There is no shame in having a small dick. Well, not much shame. [weeps]

It's not the size of your pencil that counts. It's how you write your name!

Unfortunate choice of wording there, Cam....  :lol

Okay...this has gotten way off of topic...like I said in the other thread, we've pretty much said what we're going to here...no minds are going to be changed, and the only thing that could possibly happen is more fights break out.

Closing...