The Smiley Smile Message Board

Does anyone (C-Man?) have a list of the known sessions the group recorded at Sunset Sound ?

Sure...can't say it's complete, but here goes:

Jun. 16, 1964 - Sunset Sound: MONKEY'S UNCLE
Mar. 11, 1966 - Sunset Sound: PET SOUNDS (aka HERE TODAY)
May 24, 1966 - Sunset Sound: GOOD VIBRATIONS
May 25, 1966 - Sunset Sound: GOOD VIBRATIONS (sweetening)
Aug. 24, 1966 - Sunset Sound: GOOD VIBRATIONS (editing)
Dec. 2, 1968 - Sunset Sound: COME TO ME (Murry Wilson/The Honeys)
Jan. 13, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SAN MIGUEL
Jan. 24, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SAN MIGUEL
Jan. 27, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SAN MIGUEL
Feb. 13, 1969 - Sunset Sound: I GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN
Feb. 14, 1969 - Sunset Sound: I GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN (female background vocals)
Feb. 24, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS
Feb. 24, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS (strings)
Feb. 25, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS (flute)
Mar. 3, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS (Moog)
Mar. 11, 1969 - Sunset Sound: LOOP-DE-LOOP FLIP FLOP FLYING IN AN AIRPLANE (more horns)
Aug. 15, 1969 - Sunset Sound: COTTON FIELDS (45 version)
Aug. 29, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SOULFUL OLD MAN SUNSHINE
Sep. 5, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SOULFUL OLD MAN SUNSHINE (sweetening)
June 18, 1971 - Sunset Sound: SURF'S UP (new, unused track)
June 29, 1971 - Sunset Sound: WON'T YOU TELL ME (Rick Henn)
Apr. 18, 1972 - Sunset Sound: WHAT I FEEL (aka MAKE IT GOOD) (horns)
Sep. 8, 1987 - Sunset Sound: BABY LET YOUR HAIR GROW LONG, MELT AWAY (saw, violin) (Brian Wilson)
Jun. 17, 1989 - Sunset Sound: IN MY CAR (drums) (Beach Boys, Brian Wilson)
Jun. 18, 1989 - Sunset Sound: IN MY CAR (guitar) (Beach Boys, Brian Wilson)
Dec. 2003 - Jan. 2004 - Sunset Sound: A FRIEND LIKE YOU (mixing) (Brian Wilson)
Apr. 13, 2004 - Sunset Sound: HEROES & VILLAINS, ROLL PLYMOUTH ROCK, SONG FOR CHILDREN, ON A HOLIDAY (Brian Wilson)
Apr. 13, 2004 - Sunset Sound: HEROES & VILLAINS, ROLL PLYMOUTH ROCK (Brian Wilson, Stockholm Strings & Horns)
Apr. 14, 2004 - Sunset Sound: GOOD VIBRATIONS, MRS. O'LEARY'S COW, BARNYARD, WIND CHIMES, VEGETABLES (Brian Wilson)
Apr. 14, 2004 - Sunset Sound: GOOD VIBRATIONS, MRS. O'LEARY'S COW, BARNYARD (Brian Wilson, Stockholm Strings & Horns)
Apr. 15, 2004 - Sunset Sound: OLD MASTER PAINTER/SUNSHINE, CABIN ESSENCE, OUR PRAYER/GEE, WONDERFUL
Apr. 15, 2004 - Sunset Sound: CABIN ESSENCE, WONDERFUL (Brian Wilson, Stockholm Strings & Horns)
Apr. 16, 2004 - Sunset Sound: SURF'S UP, IN BLUE HAWAII, I'M IN GREAT SHAPE/I WANNA BE AROUND/WORKSHOP, CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN (Brian Wilson)
Apri. 16, 2004 - Sunset Sound: CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN (Brian Wilson, Stockholm Strings & Horns)

Great info!

One thing stuck out...all of those sessions in 1969, is there a reason why after Brian's home studio was up and running at full capacity, that they'd decide to book time at a commercial studio instead, and do it that often as it looks from the timeline? I'm going on information that around the time of "Friends", Brian's home studio was complete and fully "stocked" enough to compete with some commercial studios...so why book elsewhere if they got what they wanted (finally) at the house?

Good question, but until the second half of the "Sunflower" sessons, they really continued to use outside studios a lot:  Wally Heider for some vocals/mixdown/editing on "Smiley Smile" and "Wild Honey" (and some basic tracks in the latter case),  I.D. sound for about half of "Friends", several studios (Capitol, Heider, I.D. Sound, Valentine) for "20/20", and Sunset and Gold Star for the "Sunflower" era.  Until they got 16-track at Brian's home studio in late '69.  SO...maybe that's the answer...they needed to bounce between two 8-tracks and only had access to one at Brian's (whether it was leased or owned by the BBs).  When they got the 16-track, that was all they needed.  Suppose?

That could be, definitely the 16 track issue could be the factor...has Stephen Desper ever commented on that? Did he engineer the sessions in 1969 which were held outside the home studio?

I know the Smiley and Wild Honey use of outside studios was due more to the fact that Brian's home studio was still very much a patched-together affair, and there was no really permanent installation or setup in place. Then around Friends, it was all but completed, or at least made more "whole" and permanent for that time - and the outsourcing during and after that period is the one which apart from the 16-track issue is still a mystery. They made the studio, they got it set up, designed, and ready to roll, and yet they were still outsourcing more sessions than I think we assumed before seeing the facts actually laid out in a timeline.

The first documented use of the home 16-track was on October 13th 1969: transfers from 8- to 16-track. It's in 10452. Known uses of Sunset Sound ditto. There's a few C-Man doesn't mention, like "I'm Going Your Way", 7/14/69. Which is odd, as he supplied me with a lot of that info !

WOW!  I was primarily interested in the '67-'69 era, but you gave it all! I appreciate it very much.

So 'Tune X' or any of the late SMiLE sessions were not recorded there? And no portions of "Break Away"? For some reason, I though more '20/20' material was cut there (like 'Be With Me'), but I may be confusing it with I.D. Sound or something else.

"Be With Me" was tracked at Bellagio, according to the AFM sheet, although the liner notes for "Hawthorne, CA" credit Capitol Studio B.  "Break Away" was tracked at I.D. Sound, with vocals apparently added at Gold Star (and possibly Bellagio as well). 

Yeah, I got the info about "I'm Going Your Way"/Sunset from Alan Boyd's observation of tape box & track sheet notation, rather than AFM contracts, which is where most of my list above comes from.

thanks again for all the help.

Thought I remember reading Steve Desper (or somebody) saying that Murry was up at the Bellagio studio for at least one Break Away session. I think a vocal one. In fact, didn't Murry sing on one of the takes too?

Well, he sang on "Be Here In The Morning"...maybe on "Break Away" too.

I actually got to record a bit at Sunset. Very cool, I was in Studio 2 and 3 I believe. I have pics... anyone interested?

what year ?

Uh, yeah!


I really like the sound of Here Today, and I really think it has a very signature to Sunset Sound sound to it.  I thought it was interesting that Bruce Botnick has noted that he used more big condenser mics than some of the other studios.  Apparently he was using these on guitar amps when a lot of other guys were just doing the 545s or 666s.

In any case, it is very distinct from the Western and Gold Star tracks.

This year!

Alright man, i'll upload them asap!

Desper definitely engineered the basic track session for "All I Want To Do" that was held at Valentine.  According to the Badman book, Bill Lazarus engineered the Sunset Sound sessions for "Got To Know The Woman".  According to Desper, there was an engineer named Don Henderson who assisted with some of the sessions at Capitol.

Valentine supposedly had a great Putnam-designed board, right?

Ok found the pics, uploading tomorrow morning...

Also I might make a full thread about this if you guys are interested, I heard a lot of stories, including one about the analog tape machines used in the Good Vibrations Era, and another about why they don't have a sign out front,

Oh, and I played Surf's Up, probaby first time since '71 ;)

um, wait a second ... did Sunset Sound have an 8-track in '66 then? I thought they got their first in '67. but the info out there is really conflicting. maybe they rented one.

As far as I know it was still 4-track in 66 at SS.

I would love to hear as much info as possible about the multi-tracks they were using '66-'69 era.

ok, so they recorded the track at Sunset and the vocals at Columbia I'm assuming?

Right.  This makes me want to listen to the session.

From what I gathered Sunset didn't get 8-track until 1967, but even that is sketchy because they like the other independent studios were building and using custom and customized setups as a general rule. So just because they didn't order something stock doesn't mean they didn't have it as an in-house custom thing, which makes dating certain things impossible.

(http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/images/classic4controlroom.l.jpg)

(http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/images/classic3sunsetstudio1.l.jpg)

Nice to see those photos again.  I love that they only seem to have had one compressor in the control room.  I wonder if the mono out just went through there.  But what a simple set up.  The board, with the pres obviously racked up somewhere else, is really elegant.

those look like pretty early photos, like '64 or prior? looks like just a 2-track Ampex tube machine in the control room. funny they were using 'Audiotape' brand tapes though. Those tapes actually sound really good but I think they were kind of a budget competitor to Scotch/3M.

Could be from around the era of this photo, which of course we can very accurately date:

(http://www.thebluegrassspecial.com/archive/2012/july2012/_images-july-2012/tutti-annette-beachboys.jpg)

Can somebody dig up a photo of the control room during a Doors session or something, to see a later view?

Bruce Botnick at the board from studio 1, 1967, at the time The Doors would have been recording there.

(http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/images/classic1bbsunset.l.jpg)

In the "Sound On Sound" article, Botnick goes into some great details about that custom board and all the gear - apparently the custom design of that control room included a patching system where you could patch into numerous devices, preamps, compressors, etc from anywhere in there.

That is the custom board from Sunset in the photos, I imagine it's the very one Brian and the Doors and others used.

Remarkably stable set-up over the years.  How do you guys think they used the one compressor/limiter?

I really love how patchable the studios were.  You can see at CBS, in particular, all the patch bays, and this was before thousands of channel inputs and effects and stuff.  You could hack in almost anywhere.  Apparently the Western guys even liked to bypass the Putnam preamps for certain applications, and just go right into the tape machine.  And of course you'd have chambers, EMT plates, and Spring reverbs right there too.  Ah, to have been alive then.

I would guess vocals and mono mixes/bounces? barely touching the needle, if at all. I think in the U.S. throughout most of the '60s (with some exceptions), compressors were considered a necessary evil, and using primarily in vinyl mastering, or to keep tape hiss down when bouncing from deck to deck. of course, there are always exceptions. And I think by '67, they started using it more as an effect.

Botnick does mention how he got Robbie Kreiger's awesome guitar tone by overloading the tube preamps (Geoff Emerick-Revolution...same technique for Lennon), I wondered if they at least used something at some stage in the recording process to make that tube distortion and natural compression from that overloading even more creamy and sustained (and controllable) by sending it through an LA-2A or something similar, even if not for anything but to even it out in the mix.

Is it just my ears or is there hardly any noticeable outboard compression heard on the first two Doors albums? Maybe I'm just not remembering, it's been awhile since listening to all of the songs.

It's just funny that it's the only thing up on the desk there, when I'm sure they had a handful of other things racked somewhere.  So obviously it was used so much that they wanted it right there.  I remember an interview with somebody, or maybe it was Linett telling me, that Gold Star only owned one limiter up through most of the 60s and it was only used at the mastering stage.  Apparently most engineers, in LA at least, would get offended if told to use a compressor, because they believed in their ability to ride the faders.  So I agree that the outboard compressor is not the sound of early mid-sixties LA records.

I think the first one sounds a little compressed, but 'Strange Days' is super clean ... but I think it's more to do with solid state sound. I think the board was solid state by that time, and the tape deck was as well (compared to the first album).

The way Botnick describes Strange Days it seemed most of what they used was still tube, including that board and preamps. The 8-track tape deck was one of Wally Heider's 3M rentals!  :)

I was listening to When The Music's Over just now...that track is amazing. Robbie's fuzzed out guitar sounds like one of the best fuzztones you'll ever hear. if Botnick did that by overloading preamps instead of Robbie using a fuzz pedal, that's incredible. Sidetrack: Those first two Doors albums are essential, and great. Great to revisit 'em every so often.

yeh, i'm probably confusing something there ... i guess the board was still tube. I believe I'm mixing it up with 'Waiting for the Sun' ... don't know a whole lot about the Doors stuff. but yeh they're kind of underrated in some ways. much prefer them to the Beatles or Stones ... very California sound.

I was shown the "out of commission" room for all the old equipment, he told me (probably only off the top of his head) that most of the 4 track machines were out by '68. I believe studio 3 was still 4 track and studio 2 was upgraded in late '67

The Beach Boys' stuff cut at Sunset in '66 ("Here Today", "Good Vibrations") was very definitely four-track.

thanks ... once again, your presence here continues to be an essential resource !

COMMENT:

There are several reasons for outside bookings.

1.  The outside studio may have been chosen for sound reasons or for size. Get a good horn sound at Sunset #3 and you go back. A recording session involving musicians is very expensive. If you pay $5,000 for the horn track to be recorded onto your 8-track or 4-track you want the best sound for your production as you can get. Strings were usually recorded at Capital or A&M. Most strings on Sunflower were done at one session at A&M.  Four songs in the one session. But that was with a good size string section of 18 players. We didn't have that many headphones at the house studio . . . or the room . . . or the junction boxes . . . etc. Other reasons might be to book Capital and capture the reverberation from chamber #3 on the multi-track.

2.  One member of the group may have the house studio tied up for several days doing a mixdown, including if no one is in the studio. A strip of tape is placed across all the sliders, meaning the console is on hold. No automation, no MIDI. So while the mixdown is progressing, another member of the group may wish to move forward on their production by scheduling an outside session for sweetening, i.e. adding strings, horns, or percussion. I also attended these outside sessions in most cases. The paperwork may list the engineer who worked at that studio as the session engineer. Not to take away any credit, but I ran those sessions with the assistance of the house engineer. That was how it worked for most major bands. The guest engineer sits at the board and if they need help, the house engineer is there. He is not a tech. He is a mixer. It's all very professional -- no egos or one-up-manship.

3.  Much of the equipment used in the house studio was also used for extended periods as a touring system. All the consoles, power amps, and microphones were gone from the house, rendering the studio nonfictional. It takes several days to make the transition from functioning studio to concert system packed and ready to entertain thousands. The same transition back from the road system to the studio system would take several days or longer if repairs are needed. While we were out on tour, I know Brian would book an outside session just to try out ideas (which he would otherwise tryout at home). Then too a producer (one of the group members) may be "hot to record." Waiting several days for the studio to get up and running may be too long. The group member may feel he could loose his musical idea and needs to get to something recorded. He books an outside session. That tape may then continue to be worked on after the house studio is functional.

I hope this clarifies this issue for you.

Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper   

COMMENT:  I have answered this question in detail, if you can somehow look back at past postings, but here in a few words is what the scene was.

The question before management was should a studio be built at Brian's home or not. Someone said let's try it out. At that time I was working mostly on the road, but came in to help Jimmy Lockard who had been hired (through Hider Studios) to make it happen. He rented a Gates Radio Company console and rigged it to work as a recording console. He rented Altec speakers that Brian liked, a 4- then 8-track track from Hider. With a closed circuit TV system between the large living room and Brian's den, across the hallway entrance (foyer) and, oh yes, some headphones and a mic or five, booms -- all that stuff.  We recorded like that for several months. Then a big tour was in the booking. It was decided to build four consoles, special amplifiers, and good microphones for this huge tour in the US and Europe. I was to design the system to be used in a recording studio setting upon return to LA. The system, actually two systems, was thus designed at a cost of 200,000 in 1960-70 dollars. The system was designed and built for the tour. Upon the ending of that tour, a team of carpenters converted one of two living rooms in Brian's house to a studio and control room -- later added an echo chamber. It took several weeks to build the monitor speaker for the control room.

~swd

COMMENT:  We started recording at Valentine because it was a new studio, in the valley (near Bruce). It was new, eager for business. They got a rate. Valentine was a "home built" studio, but very nicely done.  A little too nicely done. The owner and builder was so protective of his creation that it became a drag to record there. You couldn't have a drink in the studio. No smoking inside. Valentine was constantly putting coasters under the cups. No coffee in the control room, only in the lounge. We did a few sessions there, but it soon ended what we thought might be a great find. The console was not the reason for going, more the location and rate.  Bill Putnam's last board was a tube board, wasn't it? Valentine was a solid-state studio.

~swd

COMMENT:   Multi-track and mastering tape recorders were rented if needed.  There is no such thing as a 4-track or 8-track studio. Heider was the largest renter of tape machines in Los Angeles. He pioneered the concept. He would move a tape machine from studio to studio if you wanted -- following you around with the same machine. Many new studios did not own any equipment. It as all leased. The advantage to this is that you could always have the latest equipment, and in bookkeeping it was an known expense for each month and tax deductable. If you outright owned the equipment you got an annual depreciation. Not nearly the tax benefit as with leasing. Same as a car lease.

~swd

COMMENT: Compressors are used in broadcasting where FCC rules are in play.

Limiters are used in recording. They are used on most everything.
This is to limit or restrict the dynamic range of the raw microphone feed which has too great a dynamic range to be recorded on magnetic tape or vinyl disc. The dynamic range will either distort or cause noise if not limited. Dynamic range of a good tape recorder is 60 dB. Record 65dB. CD is 105dB. The mic feed can be up to 110dB.

Of course, loudness or subjective volume comes into play. Limiters are used to raise the apparent level of a production. This gives an advantage in broadcasting.

If you know how to set a limiter, you will not hear it in action. Manual limiting or "gain riding" is used to produce other results. If the singer has great expression, but it is so expressive that you loose them (their voice) in parts of the mix, gain riding may be required. I have always found it necessary to gain ride on Carl's vocals, otherwise you would not hear the ends of his phrases. I might need to raise his gain by as much as 12 dB, just on the ends of a word at the end of a sentence. He would get to the end of his lung capacity and still need to sing without taking a breath, so he would sing softer. Gain riding was used as an effect in Surf's Up. Another useful technique is to limit the vocal first, but gain ride the signal after the limiter. In that way you are gain riding with a condensed vocal dynamic. This makes it easier to hear the vocal over a backing track or to cut through background vocals with the lead -- without the need to add lots of 3kHz EQ and thin out the vocal sound. You get the rich vocal sound, but it will still be heard over an instrumental track that may also contain useful information at 3kHz.

Gain riding used on parts of drum breaks, say a sting where the drummer makes an accent by -- boom da da boom, boom -- going around all the toms. That move by the drummer may need to be raised overall through gain riding in order to deliver the intended accent through the mix or over and above the normal drum level to "bring out" the tom accent. The best drummers do not play loud. Hal Blaine for example had two very distinct playing styles. One for the studio (soft) and one for the road (loud).  Drums themselves always sound fuller and bigger when played softly under microphones. A soft drum, made loud by amplification in the control room will always have more harmonics and sound richer. If you bang hard on drums, the harmonic is lost and the impact takes over. A loud drummer must be limited or you can't fit all the dynamics onto tape. You hear impact in the mix but the beauty is lost. A softer drummer may not need limiting and you hear more tonality from the drum set in the mix. And then there is drum leakage to all the other open mics in the studio. One reason Hal Blaine was in such demand was that his softer playing did not leak as much and this resulted in a more present sound for the drums -- not a sound so washed out or "room sounding" in the final mix.

A limiter is a device in which you set an upper threshold of level. When that threshold is reached the dynamic is not allowed to go over the setting -- thus limiting the dynamic. The attack and decay of the limiting action can be adjusted (envelope).

A compressor is a device in which you set the lower and upper threshold of level. For sounds that fall lower in level then you set, the compressor lifts the level up to reach your threshold and also keeps peaks from passing on the upper end of the dynamic. This is useful in broadcasting where a radio station needs to keep a constant level going out to the transmitter. Such compression will allow the transmitter to propagate a signal out further into a population. Thus, the listenership of the station increases and with it the ability to sell radio advertising time and to charge more for that time because you are reaching a larger audience.

Up until the eighties limiter and compressors operated over the entire frequency range. Then the three- or more- band limiter was invented. It divided the sound spectrum into three bands and limited each separately. It sounded better for certain if not overused.  Today the "in" sound is created with overuse of limiters. But what can you say? It's all in the name of art.

I use to frequency limit (using EQ) a track and limit the hell out of it while at the same time mixing this highly limited sound with the original track. Thus I could adjust where in the spectrum I wanted the sound to be louder without making it pump.

Limiters can also be used to make effects. Hook two in series with different settings -- useful for drums. Put a limiter on a reverb chamber and set the recovery to compliment the decay of sound in the chamber. I.E., as the sound decays the limiter raises the level -- thus making the chamber "sound" larger with a longer decay. You can also do the opposit -- make a chamber sound smaller. Do this by adjusting the limiter's delay to fall quicker than the delay rate of the chamber. Useful for vocal reverb.

Many limiters have a side-chain input. This input would allow you to insert a signal to be used as a control signal by the limiter rather than the input of the sound that is being limited. Example:  Input the bass guitar. It will not have limiting action on it induced from itself. Into the same limiter, input the kick drum into the side-chain or control input. Thus, the bass is only limited when the kick drum is struck. So if you adjust the attack and release of the limiter to match the sound you want from the kick, the limiter will push the level of the bass guitar down when the kick signal is presented. Sort of making a hole in the dynamic of the bass to allow for the kick and bass, but only when the kick is there. With a fast release, this gives you a bigger bass sound while still allowing the kick to be loud and not pump on the bass in post production. I have used this technique many times.

Limiters are great tools in the studio if you know how to use them to your advantage. If not, they can quickly distroy what would have otherwise been a great sound.

 ~swd

I'm really lovin' this thread, great posts everyone.

COMMENT:  Anyone notice Murry Wilson in the center of the photo (dark glasses). 

~swd

Stephen, that's actually either Richard or Robert Sherman (I should be able to tell them apart, but I can't).  The two Sherman Brothers are both there along with Annette and Tutti Camarata.  The Shermans, of course, wrote the song being worked on, Monkey's Uncle, which is why they are present.  They were Walt Disney's go to songwriters.  Perhaps you met them, Stephen?

(http://jimhillmedia.com/mb/images/upload/the-boys-5-web.jpg)

COMMENT:  You are right. It's the pipe in the mouth that threw me.  I do know that it's a UA (Putnam designed) mixing board we are seeing the back of. Alan looks more like a dentist examining XRays then a singer going over a lead sheet.  Ha.  ::)  I wonder where Brian's thoughts are?    ~swd

...and Dennis looks EXTREMELY bored...or he's thinking "I can't believe we have to do this CHEESEY song!" (Carl too, for that matter...HE looks like he's nodding off).

The pictures got screwed up, still sending haha, they'll be up soon... really cool Pic of me in the booth!

ha, they look super exhausted !

And thanks for all your input, Mr. Desper ! always a thrill

sorry to resurrect this thread, but ...

I actually bought the original 8-track machine from Sunset Sound recently (the reason I started this thread) ... sold my Scully 4-track awhile back, and regret it.

Anyway, I'm now selling the Sunset Sound machine and looking to get a Scully 8-track or 4-track 280. If anyone is interested in seeing the photos, here's a link to the auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271083268569?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Anyway, this is likely the machine that recorded 'Got to Know the Woman', 'Celebrate the News', 'San Miguel', etc.

How did you even buy that in the first place?!

long, personal story i can't really get into on a message board. cosmic habitforce.

why do you regret your purchase of the 8 track?

you prefer your 4 track?

I enjoy your technically spot on posts, I think your answer could be interesting.

Oh, I meant I regret selling the Scully. Basically sold the Scully to get an 8-track. This Ampex 8-track needs more work than I anticipated, and I don't really want to put more money into it. I'm kind of partial to Scullys.

Neil Young would probably buy it. Get word to him.

ha! i'll give him a call.

seriously though, it does seem like something he would be into. i don't have any connections to him though. kelley stoltz wanted to buy it but his tech talked him out of it. 'more songs, less stuff', he told him. but he already has the tube version of this thing anyway, so i can't imagine what he would do with two !

Post a link to the auction on his official Facebook page. The people who run it will get word to him.

That would be awesome to sell it to Neil Young, hell you might even get to meet the man! 8)

alright thanks, i posted the link.

This is very cool - keep us posted!

The Neil Young possibility is a great suggestion. In the past few years, if I recall, didn't they get Neil to lend his old UA tube console to UA, and they ran a session just like it would be done in the 60's using Neil's board/console and other UA outboard gear? I remember seeing and hearing it on the UA website, if I am really remembering it correctly that it was Neil's old UA console that they brought in. There aren't a heck of a lot of those floating around, and Neil from what I heard has people to meticulously maintain it and keep it in working order.

It stands as a great possibility he may add that tape machine to his "collection", especially with that photo of him working a Springfield mix/playback on the exact machine.

Damn, what a great suggestion to ask Neil! I hope something happens with this, maybe Mix magazine or something would even cover it if it does.

Yeah, Neil owns the famous Green Board. Cool link with video:

http://www.uaudio.com/blog/john-nowland-ua-interview/

Yeh, that would be cool ... but I think he prefers tube equipment, and this tape deck is solid state ... actually the first solid state machine Ampex made. But a lot of folks also say it's the best sounding solid state Ampex deck (as opposed to the AG-440, which came about a year later as a panic reaction to the Scully 280).

If this thing were the tube version, it would probably be worth like $10,000 !

yeh I remember seeing that video! that's cool, but too bad the recording they made on that video sounds like pure trash !

I think the danger of those kinds of projects is that the results are too often far less than both the concept and the execution. It was great PR, it was a cool video, it was great that Neil still maintains and allowed them to use that old board and everything, but ultimately you want it to produce a good recording, and I don't remember listening to it and being all that psyched about the results either!

I guess in this case the concept does really outweigh the result...and in the case of using Neil Young's board, and seeing it in action, I suppose it's not such a bad thing just to see it working.

Getting back to the tape machine, I think the accompanying photo showing Neil working on a mix is the "killer app" of this potential deal. It's a personal connection to the machine, it can be proven with the photo...it's just a matter of Neil either wanting it for historical value or wanting to reclaim it as part of his history, and something that appeared in that photo of him actually using it on a session. I doubt if actually using the tape machine itself would be a big factor, especially considered next to the sheer history behind it.

If not Neil...how about the R&R Hall Of Fame? I know the seller's fee is like a crazy 30-35 percent or higher, but even a rock memorabilia auction through Christie's or Sotheby's might turn something of a good deal on a sale based on how it's promoted. Consider...we're pretty focused about bands, but how about fans of Morrison and The Doors if this was documented and advertised as the machine that recorded Strange Days, and there was photo evidence of them at Sunset using it on a session? There are many avenues for such a piece of gear, that's if Neil Young doesn't want to get in on it.

They had a pretty big Les Paul auction of similar gear just this past year; recording equipment, etc and the prices some of the mundane items brought were much higher than I had expected. And some wasn't even his famous/infamous gear, just everyday stuff that any studio would have, yet it was promoted very well and the right buyers showed up to bid. Just something to consider.

Hey Craig,

Those are cool suggestions, but I'm just a recordist looking for a good working recorder. I'm actually super bummed out that this deck isn't going to work for me ... if someone were to show up at my doorstep with a working Scully 8-track for a trade, it would be a deal !

The history of the thing is very important, if I had the spare scratch I would buy it just to put it in a corner and look at it.

I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but the thing is clearly a museum piece in some respect - it's a historic piece of equipment. Again, not meaning to be rude, but it shouldn't be finding it's way to civilian types like you, DonnyL (unless I'm totally offbase and this is in fact your job/you have the proper facilities for such stuff - you've got a few of these things, so maybe I am!), but that's why I'm so amazed you have it in the first place! I thought they put these things in storage or destroyed them or something....


I'd still be curious to know how you got it, but I understand if it's not for public consumption or you can't be bothered to type it up or w/e

I don't really know how to respond to those comments. if it weren't for types like me, no one would even know or be able to identify that this was the deck from Sunset Sound. The 'music industry' threw these decks to the curb decades ago. Not sure what you mean by 'civilian types' and 'proper facilities'. And sorry but it would be a crime to put this machine in a museum. It should be used to record great sounding records. This machine is up there with the greatest sounding recording equipment of all time, the likes of which will never be made again. It should be put to use, as it will likely still be running after we're all long gone.

The story of how I got it is not appropriate for a public forum.

I understand. I'm just marvelling at how that console is up for sale on ebay! I meant no disrespect at all, not knowing anything about you ofc (like I said, I don't know whether this is in fact your job and you own a studio etc or if you're just a ordinary guy!). It's a shame they threw them away, and obviously amazing that you're doing the good work. Let us know how it goes!

cool ...

well Actually, after having this conversation with you last night, I got to thinking about how this thing could end up in the wrong hands (there are lots of people who like to 'part thing out' and chop $hit up) ... so I did some additional troubleshooting and decided to keep it. it seems like it may be less work than I thought to get it up and running. I've ended the eBay auction, but it should still stay up for awhile for those interested in taking a look.

I'm glad to hear you're keeping it.  I will rest easier knowing it is, as you say, in good hands.

Thanks Josh !

Wow...to own the machine that likely recorded these sessions, as well as many other notable ones!:

Dec. 2, 1968 - Sunset Sound: COME TO ME (Murry Wilson/The Honeys)
Jan. 13, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SAN MIGUEL
Jan. 24, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SAN MIGUEL
Jan. 27, 1969 - Sunset Sound: SAN MIGUEL
Feb. 13, 1969 - Sunset Sound: I GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN
Feb. 14, 1969 - Sunset Sound: I GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN (female background vocals)
Feb. 24, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS
Feb. 24, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS (strings)
Feb. 25, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS (flute)
Mar. 3, 1969 - Sunset Sound: CELEBRATE THE NEWS (Moog)
Mar. 11, 1969 - Sunset Sound: LOOP-DE-LOOP FLIP FLOP FLYING IN AN AIRPLANE (more horns)

indeed ... not to mention 'Forever Changes'! I was kind of freaking out earlier thinking about it. In fact, I think the aborted sale attempt was a subconscious panic 'not worthy' response.

I actually did some additional troubleshooting and got the thing running! I'm going to have a tech help me get it fully set up though. It's super clean and intact (more so than any deck I've ever seen in fact). I'm going to have it fully restored.

Yeh, that's why I started this thread to ask you about those sessions! I was working out the logistics of getting the machine at that time.

Hope I didn't set off too many alarm bells, but glad to know it's safe.

How's about posting a picture, once you get it up & running?  :)

Actually I got it up and running ... still need to find a suitable rack for the 8 electronic modules though (the original is long gone). I'm still waiting on some 1" tape I ordered, but the only problem I can discern right now is that I can't get channel 1 to pass audio (all others work!). I was able to sort out an earlier problem with the capstan not engaging ... apparently there is a safety lock to prevent damage to the flywheel in transit ... located this info with the help of the very rare manual someone was kind enough to direct me to from the Ampex list.  After I disengaged the lock, the capstan works now!  This machine has an unusual (to me) indirect capstan drive, which means the motor actually connects to another piece (flywheel), which controls the speed. It's fine-tuned with a small screw connected to a spring, which is connected to a hinge/door type assembly. I just need to get some tape rolling to get the speed adjusted ... though the tech I'm hiring has a a more precise way of doing it, so I will probably wait for him.

I have a photo album with a couple (bad) snapshots I made for the guys on the Ampex list, here it is:

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/donnylang/Ampex%20AG-300/

Thanks for the photos Donny!  Just remembered that the last Buffalo Springfield album was cut at Sunset, so your machine may have had those honors as well!

This is a wonderful story to be following.  The technicalities are mostly beyond me but enjoying none the less. Many thanks, DonnyL, and to Craig for that sessions list, which I'm sure will grow.

I was hoping to find another control room shot showing the angle of the photo with Neil working the board, but I have not seen anything yet. A lot of the photos we can easily find of Sunset Sound in action seem to come from a set of Doors photos and a set of Stones photos from the "Exile" period. Most of them show the studio floor and the band(s) working in the room rather than the control room. Others that do show the control room don't show the gear all that much.

For a comparison, this is a Stones shot where you can see the control room in the background, but notice they have a 2" 16-track machine at the time this photo was shot. Brings up the question: Is there a year or even a specific month where it is known that Sunset stopped using Donny's machine and changed to something else? The Stones historians can take a crack at dating this photo: Needless to say, it obviously shows a 16 track in use by then, which would be expected:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/10_RollingStones5.jpg)



I wish there were another angle from this next shoot. This is John Haeny, Paul Rothchild, and Jim at the board, in glorious full color, during a 1968 "Spanish Caravan" session. Notice Robbie's red Gibson SG perched on top of a rack on the right of the shot. I'm betting anything if the camera had panned to the left, you'd see Donny's tape machine. Great photo - wish there were more!

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/haenyrothchildmorrisonstudioone.jpg)

I think it's easy to assume if you nail down some months and years, and put it together with an approximate date of when Sunset got this machine then later changed machines, whatever sessions happened at Sunset during that time most likely were recorded on this machine. It might be as simple as that!

Yeh I searched high and low ... can't find any other photos! Plenty of Doors sessions ALMOST show the right angle! Kind of frustrating. I was also trying to spy this weird remote somewhere near the board, but couldn't find it either !

Yeh the Stones stuff is '72 I think ... they have a 3M M56 16-track (same model they had at BW's house, and which most of Sunflower, Surf's Up, etc. were recorded on).

I'm trying to pinpoint exactly when this machine was there. Seems that 'Strange Days' and some Turtles stuff was done on 8-track at Sunset, but the machine was a 3M M23, rented from Wall Heider. It seems as though Sunset got this Ampex AG-300 8-track around June-July '67. The Buffalo Springfield sessions are Sept I believe.

They were still using 8-track on the Monkees' (Davy Jones') "If I Knew" and "French Song" sessions in June '69. Not sure when they went to 16-track, but it must have been soon after. By 1970, a major studio in L.A. would basically have to have 16-track to stay competitive.

Also, I think they probably still did some 4-track sessions, or at least had a 4-track machine available to transfer, etc. ...

P.S. - this Ampex machine is from '66 and was apparently originally used for the Green Acres TV show. I suppose it was used there for a year before going to Sunset. I wish I had more details about that transition.

Don't know if this helps with any dating whatsoever, but the first documented use of the Bellagio 16-track was October 13th 1969.

From a research standpoint, there is one name that could be a wealth of information, if he hasn't been contacted already...

Fantastic thread, guys. Even as a high school guy reading Stephen Desper's Sunflower liner notes when the LP came out in 1970, I could tell that at the time we were in the middle of a sonic revolution, with the BBs smack dab in the middle of it. Good on you, Donny, for keeping that machine--really and truly a priceless artifact.

One thought that I don't see covered above:  Sunset had (has) more than one room....Studio A (aka Studio 1) is where the four-track stuff Brian did in '66 was recorded AND where BWPS was tracked (through the analog board into ProTools), but do we know what model of recorder Studio B (aka Studio 2), or other rooms, used, and what important sessions may have occurred in those other rooms?

I may be wrong on this, and if I am please correct...but I *think* Studio 1/Studio A was the main tracking room, where all of the photos posted here and others I have and have seen elsewhere were taken. Sunset was formerly an auto repair garage, and the studio floor sloped on an angle from the garage days and design. In the photos, if you look a certain way at the tracking room, it does look like a garage bay kind of design.

And obviously Donny's tape machine is seen prominently behind Neil Young, so it was there in the tracking studio, Studio 1/A, and unless it was wheeled back and forth between rooms, it was the machine being used for these band sessions, and the one in the control room with the couch in front of the board as seen in the Doors, Stones, Springfield, etc session photos.

I'm guessing...again, please correct if necessary...that any other studios at Sunset were there for either commercial-advertising sessions, voiceover work, mixdowns and mix sessions, and other sessions where a full, live room was not required. These would be the smaller "bread and butter" rooms that are not photographed and that would not be as well known as the bigger rooms where the rock stars came to record. Yet, those smaller rooms may have been what kept the studio(s) in business as they regularly cranked out advertising jingles and radio/TV voiceover spots while the rock stars were in the famous rooms.

Just about every studio had one of these rooms, definitely United/Western had them, and although they were named and labeled they're barely documented or photographed as much because the glamorous sessions were happening in the live tracking rooms. Unless making a 30 second spot for Big Jim's Encino Ford dealership was somehow more noteworthy than a Love or Smile session, there would be no reason to document them or the small rooms.

I may be totally off, but I'm guessing the other studios at Sunset and elsewhere were for those smaller jobs.

I think you're right ...

Studio A presumably would have been the 'good' one, so this would be where the 8-track was situated from '67-'69. I would guess studio 'B' probably had a 4-track. An 8-track cost around $25,000 ('60s dollars), so most studios would not be leasing more than one!

I do wonder if this 8-track went to Studio B when Studio A went to 16-track.