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I was relistening the Stephen Desper mix of this haunting song... anybody have any data about the sessions?

Who played vibes and bass?

Thanx

Carol Kaye played vibes and bass.

(probably not)

I always thought it was themselves (Beach Boys) playing the instruments before recording the vocal parts, and I really love that opening, I'll never know why the decided to cut it.

I already asked about this in the insignificant questions -thread... The bass playing is indeed mesmerising. Who is it? Too complicated for Bruce? Too pick-sounding for Brian (you know, with his thumb technique)? Is it Carl? Al? Anyway, what a great line.

I wonder why Brian played bass with his thumb if he almost solely hired pick-playing session bassists.

There's something about it on Wikipedia I think, about that mix, to be honest I kind of didn't like the vibes in it, well that's me anyway.

I think among those recording and playing bass in the 60's, it was preferred in certain styles of music to use a pick on the bass so it would cut through the mix better than a thumpier sound when played with fingerstyle (or thumb) technique. You'll notice a lot of LA based bassists in the 60's used a pick more often than fingers, while Motown's bass sound was based (no pun...) on Jamerson and his cohorts playing fingerstyle, which is what most of the players who had converted from upright had used when playing electric. Each choice fit that particular style.

Joe Osborne was one very, very prolific studio bassist whose signature sound was picked Jazz Bass...note the incredible bass sound on Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In, and how a thumpier or thuddier bass tone would have gotten buried in that mix, where Joe's is one of the prominent lead instrumental tracks on that record. Same with any number of Carol Kaye tracks, or McCartney, or whoever else picked their bass.

It was ultimately an aesthetic choice for those calling the shots, and Brian obviously preferred recording that picked bass sound after it became a trademark of his records. I personally prefer playing with a pick, and I laugh at those stuck-up bassist types who think playing electric bass with a pick is blasphemy.  :-D  For me, an electric bass with more than 4 strings is blasphemy, but what do I know?  ;D

When I first started playing bass I tried playing with my thumb to play like Brian... and it was too hard. Then I tried playing with my pointer and middle fingers... and it was too hard. Then I used a pick and everything was super easy! I can play pretty decently with my pointer/middle fingers now but still prefer a pick 90% of the time (depends on the song). Every so often I try to play with my thumb, just for fun, and I just can't do it.

Or, another angle would be to ask the question would anyone *not* use a picked bass over fingerstyle or thumb bass if they were asked to record a song which "sounds like Brian Wilson"? It's so much of a sonic trademark associated with Brian at this point, even though he himself (as a bass player not by choice or vocation but by necessity...) played with his thumb.

Strangely enough, when I'm not using a pick, I actually prefer playing with my thumb if I need to get that thumpy fingerstyle sound from my bass! I think I got that from watching Brian, too, and I tell anyone who's watching where I got it. I'm more comfortable playing that way, especially over the 2-finger "standard" technique, which I do but not by choice. I get hellish thumb blisters, though.

Somewhere here is a post listing the musicians, taken from a tracking sheet. Use the search function.

Gee, thanks for the tip! I found this: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7916.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7916.0.html). Doesn't say who actually played the bass, but it very likely was Alan or Carl. WHICH?

There's really no way to know.

I think Daryl Dragon played the vibes.

Sigh. So many things I desperately want to know. Given the chance, I'd ask Al. And of course he wouldn't remember and, first and foremost, couldn't give a toss about who it was. I know, it's not that important... But it's such a beautiful line, and the fact it probably is played by one of the boys makes it all the more interesting. I want to know who to thank for it!

The first part of the Desper mix is just the track stripped down and without vocals. The vibes are lovely and get buried under the guys' voices, but I wish the organ was also included in the first part of the Desper mix.

Actually, before starting this topic, I did a search with the wrong keywords... I had forgotten about that topic, I read it when it was posted... Anybody remember the name of the primitive rhythm box used? I know I read it somewhere...

According to AGD in that thread Jukka just linked to, it's called the Rhythm Ace.

Rhytm Ace it is, and it's available as a part of Funk Box mobile app. I downloaded it, and it gave my endless Til I Die and Bi Sur 4/4 -cover versions a whole new level of authenticity. Highly recommendable device!

'tis sad that the kids who made these songs won't be around forever and we'll likely never have much of an idea as to who played what on a lot of their stuff. That's why folks like Carol Kaye are truly fiends.

It's a Maestro Rhythm King, not the Ace-Tone Rhythm Ace. Also featured on "Farewell My Friend", and probably buried in other tracks as well. "Til I Die" seems to utilize a snare w/ brushes overdub as well. I think the 'organs' on the song may actually be an RMI rock-si-chord sent through a leslie. presumably played by Brian.

Cool, I wasn't aware it was on "Farewell My Friend". It's also on the early "Big Sur" - what else?

Fallin' In Love/Lady.

I suspect it was used as a guide and tracks were built around it on a lot of songs ... and probably left in the final mix here and there. although "Lady" and "Farewell My Friend" are the only ones where I can hear it without other percussion dubbed along.

On Til' I Die there's both the "roxi" and an organ.  I've heard a tracking session and they both play at the same time, so they can't both be Brian.


The Rhythm King was a guide on H.E.L.P. also. 

ehm, I belive he hired bass players using picks due to having Lyle on double bass on most recordings. This way he would create more sounds.

Yes, I've got a copy of the AFM contract for this title, but I seriously doubt its accuracy...for one thing, the session date given is July 30th, 1971, but an early mix of the song was played over the air on WPLJ-FM during the Boys' appearance there in February '71!  Other sources give a more believable recording date of August 15, 1970.  Like most of the AFMs for the "Surf's Up" album, two titles are listed per session (the other one here being "Don't Go Near The Water"), and only actual Beach Boys are listed as musicians.  There are other things that lead me to believe this particular group of session sheets were quickly drawn up after-the-fact simply to have something to submit to the union and record company. 

Regarding who played what on the track...according to the Badman book (a notoriously unreliable source in many cases, but in this one instance I'm inclined to believe it) Dennis was away filming "Two Lane Blacktop" during the August '70 sessions (which also saw "H.E.L.P. Is On The Way", "Big Sur", and "Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)" recorded).  Which may explain the use of the Rhythm King and lack of a "real" drummer at these sessions...even though they could have easily brought in someone like Dennis Dragon, or Mike Kowalski, or Earl Palmer, or Hal Blaine...all of whom played drums in the studio for them around this time...but for whatever reason, they didn't.   The drums on "Lookin' At Tomorrow" are so light and simple that I believe one of the Boys - probably Al, Carl, or Brian - played them, while the snare drum on "Til I Die" is an obvious overdub on top of the Rhythm King, entering later in the song...it occupies the same track as the acoustic guitar overdub, so my guess is Brian played the drum while Carl played the guitar.    In Desper's book, he indicates that the bass is a Moog patch, Daryl Dragon plays the vibes, Brian plays the organ, and that he (Desper) added the wind effect via the Moog.

Note that Lyle Ritz is shown playing upright with one of those heavy felt picks in the GV studio film - a key component to what was a mystery in how they were capturing such a present sound on upright, as the notes had such a strong attack it didn't seem to be all from Lyle's fingers...and sure enough, he was picking that upright!

I think Aegir was talking about the bass tracks in general, because there are all the songs and sessions where there was no upright bass. If we're talking about the Pet Sounds-Smile era, then of course he was using upwards of three or four string instruments to double a bass line or create a bass sound and feel, but there are plenty of tracks before and after which feature picked bass, too.

A lot of that came from the Nashville studio scene anyway - the "Tic Tac" bass sound was standard practice before Brian used it.

It was just the way it was done when Brian was making hit records, and he liked the sound and held onto it. Again, the key is that Brian Wilson was not the original bass player in the group, nor do I think he necessarily wanted to play bass, but he did for the live show and the "band" presentation. His main instrument was piano.

Apropos of nothing really, but just because Lyle Ritz was mentioned, I gotta say that seeing Lyle's actual bass at the Nashville Musicians' Hall Of Fame (sadly closed, and its inventory decimated by the Nashville flooding) was a life highlight.

There's pretty clearly a Fender bass on the track too.

ah ok, cool.

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

(mods, feel free to move this to the 'smilers who make music' thread if it is deemed inappropriate ... but I thought it might be relevant to hear in the context of this gear talk)

^That was a great listen. Great song, of course, but the sound quality is just wonderful. Is it really analog four-track recording? Oh my. You're quite an engineer, I have to admit. Singing reminds me of Adult Child -era Brian, which is meant as the ultimate compliment!

That was so cool! You really got the period sound - so hard to achieve. Cheers!  :drunks

Great 12-string sound.  Do you have a recording of just the 12-string, soloed?

thanks for listening. yes, it's a 4-track, but it's half-inch ... so it's a pretty thick kind of sound.

I can get one together of the intro, as the 12-string is on it's own track ... but it's on the same track as the Rock-si-chord on the main section though if you want that.  That particular track has some kind of problem on it (bias 'rocks'/modulation I think) which sound kind of weird solo'd, but I can do a dub of that later tonight.  I also mixed it with a tape delay and glockenspiel on the intro. almost everything on there was recorded using the mic preamps that are built into the Scully.

That's cool.  I just wanted to hear the 12-string in a more isolated setting.  You've come about as close as anybody I've heard to getting a sound close to the 12-string sound on the 64-67 stuff.  It's so distinct, yet it's not some occult magic, and yet, nobody quite nails it.  But you're very, very close.

I think the trick is that it's deceptively simple, but the meat and potatoes of it have to be correct (i.e. musician, guitar, preamp, tape machine). The raw sound is quite plain ... to the point that many people would probably think it's too sterile or sounds weird ... but it works in the mix.

I believe the only way to get closer would be an original UA board with the right echo chambers. and of course, the playing itself will never be replicated !

i sent you a PM

Incidentally, I dug out my notes for the tracking session I've heard.

The Rhythm King just keeps pounding away, there are several blown takes.  Brian seems to be playing the "Roxi" and as I mentioned the organ is also live on the basic track.  The Fender bass is on the basic track too, as is Carl strumming acoustic guitar during the "I lost my way, hey hey hey" sections.  I assume that I was able to hear voices associated with the instruments for which I identified the players.  Desper calls out take numbers.  They need at leat 4 or 5 takes, because Carl has trouble with the tuning on the guitar or something.

OK, so Carl is playing acoustic - that means the bassline is most likely played by Al, or are there non-BB voices present (aseiden from Desper)?

And since the tracksheet has Carl's guitar on the same track as the snare drum...do you recall the drum being live?  Otherwise, if it was overdubbed (as I suspect), there must've been a bounce-down combining the guitar & drum.
Interesting...if Bri is playing the Roxi, it's most likely Bruce playing the organ...or Daryl...were vibes on the basic?  If not, Daryl coulda played organ on the basic and o/d'd the vibes.

Four or five years ago I read a post by Desper in which he said that Brian overdubbed snare on the last part of the song, the rest was a drum machine.

thanks to you & all who listened & downloaded ... i honestly didn't expect it, and it's very touching.

although i must add that i do think maybe there is at least some occult magic to it.

I dug a little deeper and found more notes.  The following is more or less a transcription of everything I have:

"Desper calls take 1--levels are adjusted, take breaks down.

take 2, rhythm king is just kept going between takes -- long time before they count it.  Roxi not playing.  Guitar problem.

false start take 3

Brian distinctly counts in takes 4 and 5.  The roxi is playing along now.  No vibes, no sign of moog bass as per desper's book but the roxi doubles the fender.
another guitar problem.

take 6 appears to be master because vocals appear over the next take, with overdubs.  vocals are different in general.  different performance in some cases and different mix in others.  Definitely different Brian vox."

....


So no vibes on the basic track, and I think the snare is overdubbed, even though they don't actually get to that part during the bad takes.  I also noted that there is some talking in between takes that I couldn't really make out who was talking, unfortunately.

<3 <3 <3 ~~~~~

I'm kind of uneasy about how into reading about takes breaking down etc. that I was. It was interesting! Why!?

But still, thanks ^_^

COMMENT:

You ask who played the bass and vibs?

The paperwork is a placeholder for billing purposes. I would not count on it as accurate for determining who played what.

It was all recorded at the "house studio."

The vibraphone was played by Daryl Dragon and recorded in stereo as an overdub.

The bass is a Moog patch using several oscillators and an envelope generator.
It was written by Brian and played on the keyboard by myself. If I remember correctly, the bass was re-recorded via the Moog to replace a working bass track played by someone. Does it matter? The final song only uses the Moog bass line. Like most of the Moog bass lines realized by my patching, this one goes down to around 40 Hz with equal balance given to the first and second overtones. This technique of Moog patching structure will give a good musical balance to both the smaller speaker and a full-range system. If you have a sub-woofer in your reproduction system, you will hear very deep fundamental notes in some places of the song.

~swd

That sounds really, really great.